Resolution card Blood of Acid

I wonder how the most correct resolution card Blood of Acid. I will give here 4 examples and please for explain. 1) In combat 2 vampires(A and B),before strike vampire A play Blood of Acid. both vampire declare strike HS-1dmg, Vampire A have Skin of Rock,him as acting vampire need to wait if vampire B prevent or take damage,if vampire B take damage,so vampire A take 1 from HS normal damage and 1 aggravated damage from Blood of Acid,him can chose now Skin of Rock sup to prevent 2 dmg,correct? 2) Vampire A in combat against Elimelech,play before strike Blood of Acid. Vampire A strike is HS,Elimelech chose strike HS 2 aggravated(with Claws of the Dead) questions here, if vampire A cant prevent dmg,him need to go to torpor,Elimelech still need to take dmg from Blood of Acid? 3)Vampire A in combat against Elimelech,play before strike Blood of Acid. Vampire A strike is HS,Elimelech chose strike HS 2 (normal dmg). Vampire A take 2 normal dmg,Elimelech take 2 aggr dmg from Blood of Acid. Elimelech goes to torpor without to take dmg from vampire A strike because Blood of Acid resolve as first strike,and combat end occurs before resolve strike vampire A,correct? 4) Vampire A play Blood of Acid,vampire B play Catatonic Fear or Loving Agony(valeren discipline). What now,when vampire A take dmg from CF or LA does vampire B need to take dmg from Blood of Acid after combat end? blood of acid Vicissitude inf : Only usable at close range before strikes are chosen. During each strike resolution this round, the opposing minion takes an amount of damage equal to the damage he or she successfully inflicts. A vampire may play only one Blood of Acid each round. Vicissitude sup : As above, but the damage is aggravated. skin of rock Fortitude inf:Prevent 1 damage. Fortitude sup: Prevent 2 damage. elimelech the twice-damned Sabbat. Black Hand. Seraph: Elimelech strikes with first strike. +1 bleed. +1 strength. catatonic fear Presence inf: Strike: combat ends. Presence sup: As above, and inflict 1 damage to the opposing minion once combat ends if the range is close. loving agony Only usable at close range. Animalism : Strike: hand strike at +1 damage. Valeren inf : Strike: combat ends and the opposing minion takes 1 damage. Valeren sup : As Valeren above, and this vampire may burn 1 blood to untap before combat ends.

> beslin wrote: > 1) In combat 2 vampires A and B,before strike vampire A play Blood of Acid. both vampire declare strike HS-1dmg, Vampire A have Skin of Rock,him as acting vampire need to wait if vampire B prevent or take damage,if vampire B take damage,so vampire A take 1 from HS normal damage and 1 aggravated damage from Blood of Acid,him can chose now Skin of Rock sup to prevent 2 dmg,correct? > Your scenario is wrong, because if A plays Blood of Acid, it should be B that takes damage from BoA, not A. I'll answer two scenarios that match (I hope) your questions: <please wait> > beslin wrote: > 2) Vampire A in combat against Elimelech,play before strike Blood of Acid. Vampire A strike is HS,Elimelech chose strike HS 2 aggravated(with Claws of the Dead) > questions here, if vampire A cant prevent dmg,him need to go to torpor,Elimelech still need to take dmg from Blood of Acid? > If A doesn't prevent the damage, Blood of Acid deals 2 damage during the strike resolution of Elimelech's strike. Elimelech takes 2 damage. groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/xWPJdV1Q1w4/Bo6_h9fGCPQJ > beslin wrote: > 3)Vampire A in combat against Elimelech,play before strike Blood of Acid. Vampire A strike is HS,Elimelech chose strike HS 2 (normal dmg). Vampire A take 2 normal dmg,Elimelech take 2 aggr dmg from Blood of Acid. Elimelech goes to torpor without to take dmg from vampire A strike because Blood of Acid resolve as first strike,and combat end occurs before resolve strike vampire A,correct? > Correct. Elimelech's strikes resolves first, meaning that A takes 2 damage and (if A doesn't prevent) Elimelech takes 2 agg damage. If Elimelech doesn't prevent the damage, he goes to torpor before A's strike is resolved. > beslin wrote: > 4) Vampire A play Blood of Acid,vampire B play Catatonic Fear or Loving Agony(valeren discipline). What now,when vampire A take dmg from CF or LA does vampire B need to take dmg from Blood of Acid after combat end? > The damage of Catatonic Fear is inflicted after the strike resolution (and after combat). It doesn't trigger Blood of Acid. groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/WRjUJQnRM2I/ei7-QS4xtl8J Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Yes me scenario is wrong in question 1,i repeat scenario 1 and scenario 4 here. 1) In combat 2 vampires A(acting vampire) and B, before strike vampire B play Blood of Acid. both vampire declare strike HS-1dmg, 1a))Vampire A can prevent dmg with Skin of Rock but him only declare i can prevent dmg without play card,and wait what vampire B doing with dmg. if vampire B decide to take dmg then vampire a take dmg from vampire B strike and 1 aggr dmg from BoF,him play Skin of Rock superior and prevent both. correct? 1b))but what hapen in same scenario if vampire A have inf fortitute? him as acting need first to declare if prevent or not? so if him said i can prevent dmg,vampire B said i take dmg,so vampire A now must use Skin of Rock inf to prevent HS from vampire B strike but him then take 1 aggr from BoF. correct? 1c)) )but what hapen in same scenario if vampire A have inf fortitute? him as acting need first to declare if prevent or not? him have 1 Skin of Rock inf in hand him said i take you dmg,vampire B said i also take dmg. vampire A play Skin of Rock inf prevent dmg from BoA and him draw again Skin of Rock,him can use now Skin of Rock inf to prevent from vampire B strike dmg? if vampire A can play second Skin of Rock to prevent dmg from vampire B strike,what now,does vampire B can change opinion and declare to him also can prevent dmg from vampire A strike? is litle complicated, i hope you understand what i ask in example 1c)) if i no get good example here with BoA can you explain how is correct way to vampire take dmg from BoA if strike resolve in same time? 4) in example 4 you only answer to BoF not apply vs Catatonic fear but what about BoA vs Loving Agony(valeren discipline),does dmg from BoA apply vs Loving Agony,because text in LA no said inflict dmg after combat? and i ask here may dmg from LA be prevented with any combat prevention cards?

I'll cover scenarios 1.x in details later. Yes, as you suspect, there's a timing loophole due to damage "successfully inflicted" and impulse. > beslin wrote: > same time? > > 4) in example 4 you only answer to BoF not apply vs Catatonic fear but what about BoA vs Loving Agony(valeren discipline),does dmg from BoA apply vs Loving Agony,because text in LA no said inflict dmg after combat? and i ask here may dmg from LA be prevented with any combat prevention cards? > The damage of Loving Agony is inflicted after combat as well. groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/PMfeHfvc7ys/dT5XN0_6L4EJ It will be clarified in updated card text. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

In the case of Loving Agony the vampire playing it takes the agg damage from BoA since the damage is resolved during combat.

> cordovader wrote: > In the case of Loving Agony the vampire playing it takes the agg damage from BoA since the damage is resolved during combat. > No (see my previous post) Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Ok, I had trouble to find the original ruling, but I had it right. There are three important things to remember: - playing prevention cards follows the sequencing order. If A (acting) chooses not to prevent damage, then B plays an effect (for instance, B prevents damage), then A gets back the impulse and may choose to play a prevent damage card. - unprevented damage from strikes is applied simulteanously - Blood of Acid triggers on damage successfully inflicted With that in mind: A acting, B non-acting. I) A plays Blood of Acid. A and B each hand-strike for 1 damage at close range: I.a) A prevents the hand strike damage from B. B has only the 1 damage from the hand strike from A to take or prevent. I.b) A doesn't prevent the damage. B has 1 damage from the hand strike from A to take or prevent (he can't prevent hypothetical damage from Blood of Acid at that stage because A may get the impulse back and may prevent): I.b.1) B doesn't prevent. A and B both takes 1 damage. Then Blood of Acid inflicts 1 damage on B, that B can prevent. I.b.2) B prevents A's damage: I.b.2.1) A gets the impulse back and decides to prevent the damage. Nothing else happens since all damage has been prevented. I.b.2.2) A gets the impulse back and decides not to prevent the damage. A takes 1 damage. Then Blood of Acid inflicts 1 damage on B, that B can prevent. II) B plays Blood of Acid. A and B each hand-strike for 1 damage at close range. A has 1 damage from B's hand strike to prevent or take. Then B must either prevent or take the damage from A's hand strike. If B takes the damage, then we go back to A that has 1 damage from the Blood of Acid to prevent. The reference post is the following: www.jyhad.pw/2004/Aug/04/20220.html > LSJ wrote: > > If Barry is in combat with a War ghoul, and plays blood of acid, is there no > > time for a vagabond mystic to tap to heal the war ghoul for 1 which thus > > survives? > Right. > > > Or does blood of acid set up it's own little damage resolution > > step after the regular one? > No. > > > It's a little complicated as blood of acid doesn't know how much damage to > > inflict until it's inflicted =) > > Barry: Blood of Acid. > > Choose Strikes: > Barry: hands for 2. > War Ghoul: hands for 4. > > Resolve Strikes: > A. Apply effects (2 damage to War Ghoul. 4 to Barry.) > B. Damage handling > B.1. Prevent damage (War Ghoul prevents 1, or not). > B.2. Barry takes 4 damage (successfully inflicted). War Ghoul now > receives 4 more damage from BoA, which she could now try to > prevent. Whatever is unprevented is successful. > B.3. Burn blood/life for successful damage. > Barry burns 4 blood to heal (or goes to torpor, of course). > War Ghoul burns 5 life (assuming she prevented only 1 point). > Now, let's answer your scenarios (I corrected the grammatical mistakes to make things clearer): > beslin wrote: > 1) In combat 2 vampires A (acting vampire) and B, before strike vampire B play Blood of Acid. Both vampires declare strike HS-1dmg, > 1a))Vampire A could prevent dmg with Skin of Rock but he waits to see what vampire B doing with dmg before playing it. > That is legal. But if B doesn't play any card, A can't take back the impulse and play the Skin of Rock, so it's a little risky. > beslin wrote: > if vampire B decide to take dmg then vampire a take dmg from vampire B strike and 1 aggr dmg from BoF,him play Skin of Rock superior and prevent both. correct? > No. A and B both take damage from their strikes, they declined to prevent them. Then A takes additional damage from Blood of Acid, that can be prevented. > beslin wrote: > 1b))but what hapen in same scenario if vampire A have inf fortitute? Since he is acting, he needs first to declare if prevent or not? . > Correct. > beslin wrote: > so if he said i can prevent dmg,vampire B said i take dmg,so vampire A now must use Skin of Rock inf to prevent HS from vampire B strike but him then take 1 aggr from BoF. correct? > No. As previously, if A and B declined to prevent, A can't go back and say "hey, I prevent the damage from your strike". But once again, Blood of Acid kicks in and adds some damage that can be prevented separately. > beslin wrote: > 1c)) )but what hapen in same scenario if vampire A have inf fortitute? him as acting need first to declare if prevent or not? him have 1 Skin of Rock inf in hand him said i take you dmg,vampire B said i also take dmg. vampire A play Skin of Rock inf prevent dmg from BoA and him draw again Skin of Rock,him can use now Skin of Rock inf to prevent from vampire B strike dmg? if vampire A can play second Skin of Rock to prevent dmg from vampire B strike,what now,does vampire B can change opinion and declare to him also can prevent dmg from vampire A strike? is litle complicated, i hope you understand what i ask in example 1c)) > No, A can't prevent the damage from the Blood of Acid and then choose to go back in time and prevent the original hand strike (whatever cards A have drawn in between). > beslin wrote: > if i no get good example here with BoA can you explain how is correct way to vampire take dmg from BoA if strike resolve in same time? > They never resolve exactly at the same time. The damage must be inflicted on the minion before Blood of Acid inflicts damage. You need to resolve the damage from the strike first, then the damage from Blood of Acid. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > > > cordovader wrote: > > In the case of Loving Agony the vampire playing it takes the agg damage from BoA since the damage is resolved during combat. > > > No (see my previous post) > I guess our posts crossed. What I really find odd is that the damage (that is part of the strike) is not applied at the same time than the used strike (besides from Catatonic Fear where it's specified).

I think i understand now,well we will see how works in practice game,BoA is very rare card. Sory for the grammatical mistakes that hapen because me english is very bad. so now as you said: They never resolve exactly at the same time. The damage must be inflicted on the minion before Blood of Acid inflicts damage. You need to resolve the damage from the strike first, then the damage from Blood of Acid. So dmg from strike and dmg from BoA not resolve in same time how i think before,and cant be prevented in same window, BoA is environment dmg as Carrion Crows,but also cant be prevented in same time as CC,or can? I get new example here: 1) in combat vampire A play CC and later chose HS1,B vampire chose HS1,A chose prevent or not,now B vampire can prevent with Soak superior both because hapen in same time. correct? 2) in combat vampire A play CC and later before strikes play BoA,both vampire chose strike HS. first vampire A take dmg,now B vampire need to take dmg from HS,CC and BoA, a)) so B first need to take or prevent dmg from A strike,but in same window him can prevent dmg from CC. now if B prevent HS dmg vampire A gets impulse back,if A decide to prevent nothing hapen,if him still decide to take dmg then impulse from BoA back to vampire B to decide prevent or take dmg from BoA,correct? b)) be decide to prevent dmg only from A strike,now A gets impulse back,if A decide to prevent nothing hapen,if him still decide to take dmg then impulse from BoA back to vampire B to decide prevent or take dmg from BoA,but him cant more decide to prevent dmg from CC,correct? well If everything I wrote here right then I understood how it works Card BoA

> cordovader wrote: > What I really find odd is that the damage (that is part of the strike) is not applied at the same time than the used strike (besides from Catatonic Fear where it's specified). > Everything that is S:CE + something has the something happen after combat ends, except for untapping. The something is lost if combat doesn't end or combat restarts (Psyche!, Telepathic Tracking) etc. [RTR 01-MAY-2002] explains the exception for Majesty and co. I think card text is up to date for them too.

> beslin wrote: > I think i understand now,well we will see how works in practice game,BoA is very rare card. > Sory for the grammatical mistakes that hapen because me english is very bad. > > so now as you said: > They never resolve exactly at the same time. The damage must be inflicted on the minion before Blood of Acid inflicts damage. You need to resolve the damage from the strike first, then the damage from Blood of Acid. > Correct. > beslin wrote: > So dmg from strike and dmg from BoA not resolve in same time how i think before,and cant be prevented in same window, > Correct. > beslin wrote: > BoA is environment dmg as Carrion Crows,but also cant be prevented in same time as CC,or can? > The fact that the damage in environmental has nothing to do with the timing. BoA damage happens after the damage of the strikes has been resolved. Carrion Crows damage happens during the normal strike resolution. > beslin wrote: > 1) in combat vampire A play CC and later chose HS1,B vampire chose HS1,A chose prevent or not,now B vampire can prevent with Soak superior both because hapen in same time. correct? > Correct. Soak can prevent 1 (from the HS) + 2 (from the CC) damage. > beslin wrote: > 2) in combat vampire A play CC and later before strikes play BoA,both vampire chose strike HS. first vampire A take dmg,now B vampire need to take dmg from HS,CC and BoA, > a)) so B first need to take or prevent dmg from A strike,but in same window him can prevent dmg from CC. > Correct. > beslin wrote: > now if B prevent HS dmg vampire A gets impulse back,if A decide to prevent nothing hapen ,if him still decide to take dmg then impulse from BoA back to vampire B to decide prevent or take dmg from BoA,correct? > Correct. > beslin wrote: > b)) be decide to prevent dmg only from A strike,now A gets impulse back,if A decide to prevent nothing hapen,if him still decide to take dmg then impulse from BoA back to vampire B to decide prevent or take dmg from BoA,but him cant more decide to prevent dmg from CC,correct? > Correct. B has already taken the damage from CC at that point. > beslin wrote: > well If everything I wrote here right then I understood how it works Card BoA > Great! Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

I have 1 more question Vampire A (with 2 blood) in combat with Dracon. Dracon play BoA before strike. both strike declare HS,vampire A for 1 Dracon for 3. Vampire A decide no prevent HS from Dracon strike,Dracon also no prevent dmg. so vampire A now need to take HS 3 from Dracon strike first. him goes to torpor and him not need to take dmg from BoA because combat is end,that is correct? Name: The Dracon Cardtype: Vampire Clan: Tzimisce Group: 5 Capacity: 11 Discipline: ANI AUS POT THA VIC Independent: Cards requiring Vicissitude [vic] cost The Dracon 1 less blood. He inflicts +1 damage or steals 1 additional blood or life with ranged strikes (even at close range). +2 strength. +1 bleed. Flight [flight].

> beslin wrote: > Vampire A (with 2 blood) in combat with Dracon. Dracon play BoA before strike. both strike declare HS,vampire A for 1 Dracon for 3. > Vampire A decide no prevent HS from Dracon strike,Dracon also no prevent dmg. so vampire A now need to take HS 3 from Dracon strike first. him goes to torpor and him not need to take dmg from BoA because combat is end,that is correct? > Both hand strikes resolve at the same time, so A takes 3 damage and Dracon takes 1 damage (all unprevented). Since A inflicted 1 damage on Dracon, A takes 1 damage from Blood of Acid. The damage must be resolved before the combat ends, even if A goes to torpor. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director