Submission - Cathedral of Flesh (master Tzimisce)

I already submitted a version 5 years ago , but every time I think about building a Tzimisce deck with big vampires, I'm facing the same problems: how can I bring them in play relatively fast without dying. Name: Cathedral of Flesh Cardtype: Master Cost: 1 pool Clan: Tzimisce Remove a ready Tzimisce you control from the game to add X blood to an older Tzimisce in your uncontrolled region, where X is the capacity of the removed Tzimisce. World of Darkness reference: whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Cathedral_of_Flesh How does this card address a compelling game need?: With the exception of Lambach and Sha-Ennu, Tzimisce of cap 9+ are very rarely played because they can't govern down and doesn't have synergy with crypt accelerators such as Zillah's Valley. Velya, The Flayer Szechenyi Jolan, Mother of Horrors John Paleologus Count Vladimir Rustovitch Stravinsky Xipe Totec Cyscek Demdemeh Terrifisto Vlad Tepes Dracon, The The card is designed to recycle your worn out small Tzimisce into older Tzimisce you wouldn't play otherwise. Created by: Vincent Ripoll Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > > Name: Cathedral of Flesh > Cardtype: Master > Cost: 1 pool > Clan: Tzimisce > Remove a ready Tzimisce you control from the game to add X blood to an older Tzimisce in your uncontrolled region, where X is the capacity of the removed Tzimisce. > I like the idea, but it should definitely read "During [appropriate phase] ...". Personally, I would prefer a wording very close to Social Ladder: "During your untap phase you can tap Cathedral of Flesh to remove a ready Tzimisce you control from the game and move all blood counters from her or him to an older Tzimisce in your uncontrolled region." National Coordinator Germany nc [dot] germany [at] magenta [dot] de

> Hakuron wrote: > > > Ankha wrote: > > > > Name: Cathedral of Flesh > > Cardtype: Master > > Cost: 1 pool > > Clan: Tzimisce > > Remove a ready Tzimisce you control from the game to add X blood to an older Tzimisce in your uncontrolled region, where X is the capacity of the removed Tzimisce. > > > I like the idea, but it should definitely read "During [appropriate phase] ...". > > Personally, I would prefer a wording very close to Social Ladder: "During your untap phase you can tap Cathedral of Flesh to remove a ready Tzimisce you control from the game and move all blood counters from her or him to an older Tzimisce in your uncontrolled region." > Why would anyone use a card as weak as Social Ladder? Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Hakuron wrote: > > I like the idea, but it should definitely read "During [appropriate phase] ...". > The card as originally worded goes off once, when you play it - so it doesn't need an extra timing element. You can't invoke it mid-combat or anything.

I don't see "it only goes off once", but I see a "usable any time". And I don't why a permanent Social Ladder (or something stronger) should be weak. Or is there something in the original wording I understand wrong? National Coordinator Germany nc [dot] germany [at] magenta [dot] de

> Hakuron wrote: > I don't see "it only goes off once", but I see a "usable any time". > > Or is there something in the original wording I understand wrong? > It doesn't get into play (it's not a location for instance). You just play it like a Golconda. > Hakuron wrote: > And I don't why a permanent Social Ladder (or something stronger) should be weak. > For two reasons: the first one is that you need to remove vampires from play, and have vampires in your uncontrolled region. That means you wouldn't use it more than twice in a game. The second reason is that to be efficient, you need blood on the vampire you're removing. But if they have blood, you probably don't want to remove them from play but play with them. In my proposal, you only consider the capacity, so you can remove worn out vampires to get a new bigger one (though it costs you 1 pool, and the missing pool to influence the vampire out). Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > Name: Cathedral of Flesh > Cardtype: Master > Cost: 1 pool > Clan: Tzimisce > Remove a ready Tzimisce you control from the game to add X blood to an older Tzimisce in your uncontrolled region, where X is the capacity of the removed Tzimisce. > I think in terms of fitting an interesting niche for accelerating Tzimisce, and the power level, it's potentially quite interesting. What I'm not wild about is the implementation from the point of view of it feeling like yet another reason to play Villein in combos with other master cards. I mean, obviously, it's different from Villein+Giant's Blood in that you don't get a full vampire to use right away, but you could be pulling 4 or 5 pool back from a full vampire, then getting 4 or 5 pool free onto your big Tzimisce, and not necessarily being restricted to doing it once per game. Perhaps it's something you might plan to do mid-game too, when you're not using so many transfers - flip out a vampire you don't care about so much, to Villein all his blood back and Flesh him too. And of course you can be playing Villein+Giant's Blood in the deck too. I think it might be nice if, somehow, it was possible to retain roughly the same utility and power level, without quite so much potential synergy with cards that are already really very, very good indeed. Given the way it works, it just seems like it would be bad play _not_ to plan to (try to) empty your Lolita or Devin before shmushing their corpse into a fattie.

Lol. Influence 10 cap, play villein for 10, put 10 counters on 11 cap. Influence 11 cap. I've just got 10 pool. Do it as many times as you want as long as you have vampires in uncontrolled region. At least villein + giant's blood is once per game for everyone. This one is crazy overpowered!

> alek wrote: > Lol. > Influence 10 cap, play villein for 10, put 10 counters on 11 cap. Influence 11 cap. I've just got 10 pool. > Do it as many times as you want as long as you have vampires in uncontrolled region. > Now that you got your 11 cap, how do you it again since you won't have older vampires in your crypt (until a 12-cap vampire is printed) ? Still, I see your point if you do it once (slightly weaker than a plain Villein + Giant's Blood combo since you lose a vampire for a turn), or if you manage somehow to chain a 8-cap, 9-cap, 10-cap etc. In that case, a slight ajustment is easy to make: Name: Cathedral of Flesh Cardtype: Master Cost: 1 pool Clan: Tzimisce Remove a ready Tzimisce you control from the game to add X blood to an older Tzimisce in your uncontrolled region, where X is the capacity of the removed Tzimisce. Each Methuselah can play only one Cathedral of Flesh in a game. Or stop it from being played while the older Tzimisce is still in play. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

"Cathedral of Flesh" really sounds like a Master:Location (this is why I got your idea partially wrong). "Ritual of (the) Flesh" might be better for your idea. But why not create a Tzimisce location which works somehow like Social Ladder but with no capacity restriction for the target vampire in the uncontrolled region? National Coordinator Germany nc [dot] germany [at] magenta [dot] de

> Hakuron wrote: > "Cathedral of Flesh" really sounds like a Master:Location (this is why I got your idea partially wrong). "Ritual of (the) Flesh" might be better for your idea. > > But why not create a Tzimisce location which works somehow like Social Ladder but with no capacity restriction for the target vampire in the uncontrolled region? > Because I don't feel it's an answer to the "compelling need" I mentioned in the OP. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

I see nothing wrong with the card as proposed, and it is an interesting mid-game card. It's difficult to abuse, and it's not a power card. It is a card you might put one or two into a deck. You could make the card more versatile by allowing it to add blood to an older uncontrolled vampire with Vicissitude. Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

> Ankha wrote: > In that case, a slight ajustment is easy to make: > > Name: Cathedral of Flesh > Cardtype: Master > Cost: 1 pool > Clan: Tzimisce > Remove a ready Tzimisce you control from the game to add X blood to an older Tzimisce in your uncontrolled region, where X is the capacity of the removed Tzimisce. Each Methuselah can play only one Cathedral of Flesh in a game. > > Or stop it from being played while the older Tzimisce is still in play. > Significant restrictions on how frequently you can play it - once per game, one per Methuselah per game, a Gather-like Unique mechanic, or whatever - are likely to undermine the effect you originally wanted: being able to bring out a small vampire for early defensive purposes etc., knowing you're not totally shooting yourself in the foot when you want to bring out Sha-Ennu. With such severe restrictions, it's harder to load your deck with more than one or two of them, so the chances of you ever having one early in a game are much lower. I was thinking, perhaps, something inspired by a souped-up version of Grooming the Protege. Or perhaps something that's a little weaker in terms of the acceleration, but with an alternative use later to bolster the fatty. Say something like... Cathedral of Flesh Requires: Tzimisce Master: trifle. If you do not control any Tzimisce with a capacity above 6, gain +3 transfers during your influence phase this turn. Otherwise, move 2 blood from the blood bank to your oldest ready Tzimisce. You cannot play another Cathedral of Flesh this turn. It's doesn't feel quite right, but it's in the sort of area I'm thinking of - the later blood gain is intended to make it playable and to offset the fact that you only get additional transfers early on, not free blood. I think something like this might be more playable, and - by being a trifle - isn't jostling quite so hard to oust Pentex Subversion, Giant's Blood, Dreams of the Sphinx or Direct Intervention from your deck. (I wonder if it's sufficient to power some sort of weenie deck, with 7 transfers a turn - possibly 9 with Info Highway - to draw and flip-out weenies. Hmm.)

> Ankha wrote: > Name: Cathedral of Flesh > Cardtype: Master > Cost: 1 pool > Clan: Tzimisce > Remove a ready Tzimisce you control from the game to add X blood to an older Tzimisce in your uncontrolled region, where X is the capacity of the removed Tzimisce. > It is (ab)usable for pool gain and I can see several scenarios where you can create a very gruesome overpowered wall deck. Here's an attempt to remove the pool gain component. Burn a Tzimisce you control of at least 5 capacity and put this card on a Tzimisce in your uncontrolled region. Burn this card in your next influence phase and move that Tzimisce to your controlled region with 0 blood. It keeps the blood/pool counters, as in it does not add more counters to the table with villein shenanigans, whilst still doing what you initially intended (perhaps slightly better). You can still trade in a expended (or torporized) Tzimisce for an older better Tzimisce. There's even an opportunity to weave in Soul gem of Etrius. -1 Strength

I think GreyB´s idea is fine, but I prefere "with 1 blood", because I think, the Cathedral is more playable as with zero blood

> ur_vampire wrote: > I think GreyB´s idea is fine, but I prefere "with 1 blood", because I think, the Cathedral is more playable as with zero blood > How about "with X-4 blood, where X is the capacity of the removed vampire"? National Coordinator Germany nc [dot] germany [at] magenta [dot] de

Argh i wonder how i could have forgotten such thing as mythic as the cathedral of flesh ! Cathedral of flesh Master. Unique location. requires tzimisce. cost 1 pool You have 1 extra transfer. During your influence, you can spend 1 transfer to do one of the following: - move a blood from a ready vampire you control with vicissitude to a vampire in your uncontrolled zone - burn a minion you control to add x blood where x is the life or blood on the minion

Sounds good for me

> GreyB wrote: > Burn a Tzimisce you control of at least 5 capacity and put this card on a Tzimisce in your uncontrolled region. Burn this card in your next influence phase and move that Tzimisce to your controlled region with 0 blood. > That is completely unplayable. I don't like master bloat either, but no one will play a card that burns all their blood either. Just stay neutral. Put this card on a Tzimisce you control. During your influence phase, move all blood from this vampire to an older Tzimisce in your uncontrolled region, burn this vampire and move that Tzimisce to your controlled region.

> Non-existant user wrote: > > > GreyB wrote: > > Burn a Tzimisce you control of at least 5 capacity and put this card on a Tzimisce in your uncontrolled region. Burn this card in your next influence phase and move that Tzimisce to your controlled region with 0 blood. > > > That is completely unplayable. I don't like master bloat either, but no one will play a card that burns all their blood either. Just stay neutral. > > Put this card on a Tzimisce you control. During your influence phase, move all blood from this vampire to an older Tzimisce in your uncontrolled region, burn this vampire and move that Tzimisce to your controlled region. > Your proposal seem closer to the original intent, I like that. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

I think I like this combo effect: Build a crypt with 4 X Little Tailor of Prague (8 cap), 4X Stravinsky (9 cap), and 4X Lambach (10 cap). Influence out Stravinsky. Equip with Soul Gem. Cathedral of Flesh during influence phase. Influence out Lambach and (hopefully) Soul Gem out Little Tailor too. There's some big holes with this premise. Either it'll pay off big or not work at all. It's risky, but fun when it works. That's how combo effects should be. The backup plan would be to influence out Lambach and Govern. I'm not sure the intent of the card was to make a Lambach deck potentially better, because dominate. Still, I think the combo effect is crappy enough where the card is not really making that deck better.