New Player Reference Cards

I'm trying to distill Ke's very nice reference sheet into a series of 6 cards. These cards are intended to provide a very quick and dirty reference to new players in their first few games, and are not intended to be in-depth resources or cover all possible situations. I plan on using slightly modified versions of Brettscho's demo decks in conjunction with these overview cards. [Starting the game and General Concepts] [img]http://i.imgur.com/HokhbTA.png[/i] [turn overview] [img]http://i.imgur.com/zFUk5cS.png[/img] [Action overview] [Default Actions] [Combat overview] [Politics overview]

there's some placement issues with the icons, but otherwise i'm happy with the Action overview. Though, It feels like I've left out something vital. The stock actions seem adequate if not a tad overexplained.

"Successful" is mispelt. The symbol is lacking the white background. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Hi. Please correct me if I am wrong... but on the third reference card "Default Actions", the first one being Bleed, Is it not an Undirected Action. I have always played (Not in tourneys) that a normal bleed action was undirected and would not be Directed, unless card text specified. ~ Rowdy

Bleed actions are always Directed actions. Pentex Board of Directors Prince of Oye Plage Alastor Grand Nord

> Vlad wrote: > Bleed actions are always Directed actions. > Correct, see rulebook: > 6.1.1. Bleed > Bleeding is one of the most fundamental actions of the game. It is the basic means of removing your prey's pool. By default, your minion's bleed actions can be directed only at your prey. > Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > > > Vlad wrote: > > Bleed actions are always Directed actions. > > > Correct, see rulebook: > > > 6.1.1. Bleed > > Bleeding is one of the most fundamental actions of the game. It is the basic means of removing your prey's pool. By default, your minion's bleed actions can be directed only at your prey. > > That is a really vague way to explain a bleed action. Let's take "Can be directed only at your prey." First of all, "can be" implies that the bleed action "can be" something else, as in "can be not directed at any Methuselah instead." Also "only" is misplaced. The current placement is modifying "at," it should modify "be directed at." The sentence should read "can only be directed at your prey." There is a world of difference between "can be" and "can only be." However, this is still a shitty way to explain things. The following is better: "By default, your minion's bleed actions are directed actions targeting your prey." The reason why is that "directed action" and "undirected action" are well-defined terms in the rulebook. These well-defined terms absolutely need to be used when defining fundamental actions in the game.

when i first joined my playgroup used to play cards like Govern as if they could bleed anyone, because they claimed that it just said Bleed and didn't specify a target. Then I pointed out that Night Moves specifies targets, and the relevant passage in the rulebook. There were claims that the Jyhad Rulebook said some things, but whatever. They've been playing it the correct way since.

So, i've hit my six cards. I didn't get to address Damage at all, and Torpor. I could do two more cards? I think? did I miss anything else major?

> self wrote: > when i first joined my playgroup used to play cards like Govern as if they could bleed anyone, because they claimed that it just said Bleed and didn't specify a target. Then I pointed out that Night Moves specifies targets, and the relevant passage in the rulebook. There were claims that the Jyhad Rulebook said some things, but whatever. They've been playing it the correct way since. > Yeah, that symbol creates more confusion for new players than anything else. In a game full of symbols, I think this is the least necessary and needs to go.

> TwoRazorReign wrote: > > > self wrote: > > when i first joined my playgroup used to play cards like Govern as if they could bleed anyone, because they claimed that it just said Bleed and didn't specify a target. Then I pointed out that Night Moves specifies targets, and the relevant passage in the rulebook. There were claims that the Jyhad Rulebook said some things, but whatever. They've been playing it the correct way since. > > > Yeah, that symbol creates more confusion for new players than anything else. In a game full of symbols, I think this is the least necessary and needs to go. > I disagree. It creates confusion when it's not printed (eg. on some old editions) but when I started playing, it helped me a lot to know whether prey/predator could block, or just the target. (BTW, is a reminder. You can always figure out if an action is directed or not from the cardtext and rules). Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

My experience is when appears, people want to attach more meaning to it than a "reminder." The most common misinterpretation is "Oh, it has the symbol. So I can target someone other than my prey." I understand the symbol can be helpful if it were explained properly to a new player by another experienced player. But, in situations where a playgroup consists of all new players trying to figure out the game, it does more harm than good.

Thank you for the replies & answer to my question...sorry to derail convo. I do like the cards for new players idea & think it would be fantastic to incorporate if cards are made again. I've been playing since 1994 with Jyhad when it came out. We never played tourneys & only for fun with group of friends. Group has changed over years but for most part we all played same way (my fault mainly) with slight changes. We have always played that bleeds were not directed and could be blocked without eagles sight or other. We "assumed" that without the D, it wasn't Directed. Our group has become gung-ho in V:TES again & are complying now with set rules. Taking adjusting to. Thank you all for the feed back. ~ Rowdy

> TwoRazorReign wrote: > My experience is when appears, people want to attach more meaning to it than a "reminder." The most common misinterpretation is "Oh, it has the symbol. So I can target someone other than my prey." I understand the symbol can be helpful if it were explained properly to a new player by another experienced player. But, in situations where a playgroup consists of all new players trying to figure out the game, it does more harm than good. > The reverse is true: I've already seen players who thought that actions not marked with could be blocked by anyone for instance. The present or the absence of a reminder won't prevent mistakes. But having a reminder is better than having none when you start, especially when it helps classifying actions in two categories: those than can be blocked by 1 guy, or those that can be blocked by the prey or the predator. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

In your example, are people aware of the symbol on other cards, and then they don't see the symbol and think the action can be blocked by anybody? If yes, we're experiencing the same problem: my example shows players misinterpreting the symbol, your example shows players misinterpreting the absence of the symbol. My thought is, if you get rid of the symbol altogether, all the misinterpretations cease to exist. If in your example the players are completely new and have not seen the symbol yet and know nothing about it, then perhaps the symbol is more helpful than I realize. I still think it could be implemented better...

> TwoRazorReign wrote: > my example shows players misinterpreting the symbol, your example shows players misinterpreting the absence of the symbol. My thought is, if you get rid of the symbol altogether, all the misinterpretations cease to exist. > And this is the main thing; either all cards / and effects that are directed actions should have the symbol or none at all. It's the inconsistency that is the problem. The new card text seems much more consistent now; with the exception being actions that could target you (undirected) or others (directed). However there are still inconstancies. Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook

Ankha, aside from the colossal pain in the ass a huge errata would be, are Bleed actions so hurting for space that a reminder "your Prey" couldn't be wedgied in there?

> Ke. wrote: > And this is the main thing; either all cards / and effects that are directed actions should have the symbol or none at all. It's the inconsistency that is the problem. > > The new card text seems much more consistent now; with the exception being actions that could target you (undirected) or others (directed). However there are still inconstancies. > We'll never be able to eliminate the problem caused by the old printings without the D-symbol, so people will forever have problems with inconsistency. Finnish Politics!

> Lönkka wrote: > We'll never be able to eliminate the problem caused by the old printings without the D-symbol, so people will forever have problems with inconsistency. > If printed proxies weren't legal, I'd agree with you. With printed proxies being legal, the door is open to edit this game into a more user friendly, printable version.

> Lönkka wrote: > We'll never be able to eliminate the problem caused by the old printings without the D-symbol, so people will forever have problems with inconsistency. > I mean, you're not wrong, but... when running demo games, one could use decks made of proxy cards that are consistent with the current printing. just sayin'.

I get it mate and it is a solid idea. However reality is often bit different and I unfortunately don't see that happening all that much... Finnish Politics!

editing for a slightly different format, and I realized I didn't save my work. way to go past me.

The "overview" cards are too in depth. There are too many words, and I find it overwhelming trying to read it. About a third of the words are key terms that are in bold, so that does make it more difficult to read. And by difficult to read, I mean the actual act of reading the words, I am not talking about comprehension. One thing I recommend is align the text to the left. Center alignment does not help much with that much text. Also, unless keywords are Proper switch to lower case. too many capital letters break the flow. Second, try something less bold than what you have now. It will be easier to read the flow of text if the bold words are closer in weight, but still distinctive to register as keywords. (don't switch to italics, it would be worse!) Some typefaces (Helvetica typically) have more weights than normal and bold. If you want to clean up the cards further, then keep in mind these are supposed to be a reference to *remind* the player of what he or she can do. You could simplify things very much if you recognize that the player can look up specifics on a phone or rulebook. For example, Action Overview could simply be: - tap a vampire and declare an action - default action such as bleed, hunt, rescue or diablarize - action card from hand, must meet all requirements - action defined on a card in play - other Methuselah's vampires may play reactions or attempt to block - directed actions may only be blocked by vampires controlled by the targeted Methuselah - undirected actions may be blocked by your prey first, then your predator if prey declines - a blocking vampire needs intercept equal to the acting vampire's stealth - the acting vampire may play modifiers - vampires controlled by other Methuselah's may play reactions Not sure if that is more or less words than your card, but it is organized closer to what the rulebook says, and includes less keywords. Anyway, I hope my advise helps. Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

yanno, upon some reflection and shit, I think you're right, Direwolf. It feels like I'm trying to reinvent the wheel.

> self wrote: > yanno, upon some reflection and shit, I think you're right, Direwolf. It feels like I'm trying to reinvent the wheel. > I feel ya. I'm always trying to reinvent the wheel. Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.