Polishing VtES - refining crypts and removing grouping

Here I would try to play with the idea of what earlier was deemed impossible - to remove grouping rule as well as "squeeze" current 1475 crypt cards into 600, without breaking or even significantly changing the game. Thought, that it can be done, come to me when one day I was looking at pile of basic discipline 2 caps and was thinking that there are actually no reason for them to exist as a different vampires (if we are not thinking about group 2 dom weenies ). So then I've started to think about my thought process when choosing crypt and that many vampires just got no way to be in any. Obviously somebody will be thinking differently, so main feedback I'm looking for is "this vampire is left out but his discipline spread can be used in this obscure anarch deck". So let's stop with the introduction and lets start with. As a basis I've taken groups 3-4. There are 671 vampires (obviously imbueds have to go), so it's not far from our goal, but we have to add key archetype vampires from other groups. Malkavians There are 50 from both sects in the groups 3-4. 13*50=650 so we can't maintain this number to not fail our goal, so let's aim to 40. 2 cap We need dem dork. There are 2 present Cassandra Langely - she even got her own wiki page. Bloodfeud - second must be subbat 3 cap Zoe 3 AUS cel obf Jackie 3 DEM Midget 3 DEM obf pre staples for respective weenies Milo, The Invisibl 3 aus obf Filler, but he is actually used quite often 4 cap Idalia, Prophet of 4 AUS dem - staple Roger Farnsworth 4 OBF aus - Black hand Fabrizia Contreraz 4 dem pot archbishop Adelaide Davis 4 aus dem obf - It's kind of expected to have 4 cap with 3 basics, but actually they are often quite useless Roland Bishop 4 aus dom obf - M94 Florentina Lengaue 4 OBF aus Sean Rycek 4 aus dem fillers 5 cap Uncle George 5 DEM aus dom obf Persia, The Beauti 5 DEM aus obf Apache Jones 5 DEM aus for obf Zebulon 5 OBF aus dom pro staples Colonel, The 5 AUS cel dem obf Black hand + AUS Victoria 5 AUS cel obf General Perfidio D 5 AUS dem obf bishop AUS 6 cap Dolphin Black 6 AUS DEM OBF Tony 6 AUS DEM dom obf staples Dr. Douglas Netchu 6 AUS OBF dem dom We have to include this guy for flavour reasons I think Ruth McGinley 6 DEM aus cel obf Somebody use her for gun combat Artemis 6 DEM OBF aus cel for for 7 cap Gilbert Duane 7 AUS DOM OBF Greger Anderssen 7 AUS OBF dom pro prince + M94 Stavros 7 AUS OBF PRE dem priscus Marie Faucigny 7 AUS OBF dem tha archbishop Kite 7 AUS DEM obf pre +1 intercept Marge Khan 7 DEM OBF POT aus for Black hand + for 8 cap Anatole, Prophet o 8 AUS DEM OBF dom for novel + for White Lily 8 DEM OBF cel dom for guns + black hand Jason, The World's 8 AUS DEM OBF for Theron 8 AUS DEM OBF for obt for 9 cap Maris Streck 9 AUS OBF ani dem dom justicar Alicia Barrows 9 AUS DEM OBF POT PRE archbishop Santaleous 9 AUS CEL DEM OBF - abilities Petaniqua 9 AUS DAI DEM OBF THA chi - filler 10 cap Tryphosa 10 AUS DEM DOM OBF POT prince Rachel Brandywine 10 AUS DEM OBF PRO ani prince stapels Unmada 10 AUS DEM OBF VIC cel for justicar Actually because justicars and IC contests there is not a problem to have several in "one group" Louhi 10 ANI AUS DEM OBF THA pro cardinal 11 cap Lutz von Hohenzoll 11 AUS DEM OBF PRE pot inner circle Leandro is just worse Malks 94 are left out because I think they can be represented by mixed clan dom obf crypt. And generally I'm trying to left group 1 out because vampires there are not connected with the RPG lore. Everything else I think is present: 22/18 camarilla sabbat split fair number of titles of both sects crypt for DEM and AUS weenies, as well as midcap kindred spirits decks, M94 all staple vampires no more "dial a crypt" for any archetype than in present groupings intercept guns angle for angle 3 black hand vampires Looks like it's working. Have I missed something? Update: I think it'll be possible to put M94 there. Added NC Russia

It's not a bad idea, but I see a main drawback: it becomes very hard to add new vampires, especially new vampires with a special ability that opens possibilities for a new archetype. For instance, you removed the Ankou (perhaps because he's redundant discipline-wise with the other 10-caps). Though I don't use him, I know there were decks built around him. He couldn't be added in your system, could he? Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > It's not a bad idea, but I see a main drawback: it becomes very hard to add new vampires, especially new vampires with a special ability that opens possibilities for a new archetype. > I don't think that in general idea with making deck defying vampire abilities is great - but for this "exercise" it doesn't matter, I'll try to include all what is presently available. Obviously "making everything that other deck can make better, but using original crypt or rare discipline" not looks like good justification to me. > Ankha wrote: > For instance, you removed the Ankou... I know there were decks built around him. > Can you show me some playable decklist build around his ability? He looks "fun" but seems totally like 10 cap Morel to me - you need to "catch" somebody when he hunts and then make a succesfull action . If there is a reason to include him we can switch any "filler". NC Russia

M94 added NC Russia

Victoria is missing. I would make room for Marge Khan to keep the deck alive.

> Non-existant user wrote: > Victoria is missing. > I would make room for Marge Khan to keep the deck alive. > [/strike] Both added. Colonel and Theron removed. NC Russia

> elotar wrote: > Here I would try to play with the idea of what earlier was deemed impossible - to remove grouping rule as well as "squeeze" current 1475 crypt cards into 600, without breaking or even significantly changing the game. > OK, but why? Why is less vampires good? "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Ashur wrote: > ... > > elotar wrote: > main feedback I'm looking for is "this vampire is left out but his discipline spread can be used in this obscure anarch deck". > NC Russia

Yes, you want feedback on obscure anarch decks. But other people are still entitled to ask questions such as why is removing vampires from the game good for the game? Why is it beneficial to make it really hard to add new vampires? Why is it preferable to dump Group 1 vampires because they aren't part of the RPG, when they are part of V:TES - you know, the actual card game people on this forum like? > elotar wrote: > Here I would try to play with the idea of what earlier was deemed impossible - to remove grouping rule as well as "squeeze" current 1475 crypt cards into 600, without breaking or even significantly changing the game. > With respect, this is nonsense. You are solving a task that was thought impossible by... you. The whole point of the grouping rule is to combat the problems that happen when you expand the number of vampires in the game above a certain level. If you cap the number of vampires in the game, you're just avoiding the problem in a totally different way. No-one thought this was impossible - indeed, one of the responses to the introduction of the grouping rule was that people should just design fewer new vampires, so that the problems didn't occur.

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > But other people are still entitled to ask questions ... > You can ask questions, just don't wait for answers. NC Russia

Ventrue There are 55 V+!V in group 3-4, so I was thinking to aim for 44 cards here, but looks like managed to put all needed vampires into 40. 2-3 cap Jack Tredegar 2 pre Samson 2 dom Diana Vick 3 dom pre Juan Cali 3 aus for Ulrike Rothbart 3 dom for Gideon was left out - pre weenie will be implemented by less pressed with archetypes clans 4 cap Ingrid Russo 4 DOM for staple Katherine Stoddard 4 dom for black hand Peter Blaine 4 aus dom for Courtland Leighton 4 dom for pre fillers with dom are fine 5 cap Neighbor John 5 AUS dom for Ranjan Rishi, Cama 5 DOM PRE for Victor Pelletier 5 PRE cel dom for staples Catherine du Bois 5 DOM for obf pre Have to chose between her and Emily Carson. Was hard but she is more widely useful with obf Jephta Hester 5 DOM FOR aus Louis de Maisonneu 5 FOR aus dom obf Louis Fortier 5 aus dom for obf pre filler 6 cap Edward Vignes 6 DOM PRE for Mustafa, The Heir 6 FOR PRE cel dom prince Victor Donaldson 6 DOM for pre staples Jefferson Foster 6 AUS DOM for tha bishop Mariel St. John 6 AUS FOR dom pro Alan Sovereign 6 AUS DOM for pre fillers 7 cap Blackhorse Tanner 7 AUS DOM FOR Graham Gottesman 7 DOM FOR obf pre tha prince staples, Graham also works "as" Quin Anne because of obf Joseph O'Grady 7 DOM FOR aus cel Gracis Nostinus 7 DOM PRE aus for primogen Jan Pieterzoon 7 DOM FOR pot pre novel 8 cap Lodin (Olaf Holte) 8 DOM FOR PRE aus pro prince staple Hrothulf 8 CEL FOR PRE dom pot pro Katarina Kornfeld 8 DOM FOR PRE ani primogen Polly Kay Fisher 8 AUS DOM THA for pot archbishop 9 cap De Sade 9 AUS DOM FOR PRE archbishop Gotsdam, The Tired 9 AUS DOM FOR PRE ani Suhailah 9 FOR OBF pot ser obf prince 10 cap Bruce de Guy 10 AUS DOM FOR OBT cardinal Lucinde, Alastor 10 DOM FOR PRE obf pot tha justicar Marcus Vitel 10 DOM FOR OBF OBT PRE prince Mary Anne Blaire 10 AUS DOM FOR PRE ani pot justicar 11 cap Arika 11 DOM FOR OBF PRE aus cel inner circle Elimelech the Twic 11 AUS DEM DOM FOR OBF pro Hardestadt 11 DOM FOR POT PRE cel pro inner circle Lazverinus was left out because they look too synergetic. FOR AUS POT wall are also better represented by others Checklist: >Gentlemen >Better gentlemen >Arika and Ko >Lawfirm >FOR pot combat 23/17 camarilla/sabbat Cardinal, 2 archbishops, bishop + 3 black hand 5 guys with pro What have I forgotten? NC Russia

> elotar wrote: > > What have I forgotten? > You've forgotten to explain why your proposal is in any way beneficial for the game. You've forgotten to explain why removing 100s of vampires from the game won't piss people off who like using them, or who have small collections. (Proxies aren't usable in all events!) You've forgotten that the point of soliciting feedback in a public forum isn't just to blithely dismiss people who disagree with you by refusing to answer very basic, important questions. Get off your cloud and explain how you're trying to help the game to mere mortals.

OK. Continuing Brujah Adana de Sforza 11 CEL OBF POT PRE PRO aus inner circle 60% of Brujah "top management" are useless 10 cap Armin Brenner 10 CEL FOR POT PRE ani obf archbishop I think he is preferable to Marcel de Breau Jann Berger 10 CEL POT PRE dem for prince for Menele 10 CEL POT PRE THA aus dom filler 9 cap Dmitra Ilyanova 9 CEL FOR POT PRE obf justicar Dark Selina 9 CEL POT PRE dom for cardinal only one Hektor 9 CEL POT PRE QUI for priscus priscus 8 cap Constanza Vinti 8 CEL DOM POT prince Donal O'Connor 8 CEL DOM POT prince euro Count Germaine 8 CEL FOR POT PRE obf filler for Jack Drake 8 CEL POT pre tha anarch Lord Aaron Wesley 8 CEL POT PRE ani obf black hand 7 cap Juggler 7 CEL DOM obf pot Theo Bell 7 POT cel dom pre euro Joshua Tarnopolski 7 CEL PRE obf pot filler Salvador Garcia 7 CEL PRE pot pro anarch Urraca 7 ANI CEL POT pre bishop Miguel Santo Domin 7 POT PRE cel for filler 6 cap Pug Jackson 6 CEL POT for pre primogen Rake 6 PRE aus cel pot prince I think that group 1-2 princes are funnier than group 4-5 Sela 6 POT PRE cel obt bishop Shawnda Dorrit 6 CEL obt pot pre priscus Henry Taylor 6 POT cel pre pro Suddenly it became quite complicated here because of lot of weenies 5 cap Dodd 5 CEL dom pre Steve Booth 5 CEL pot pre pro Volker, The Puppet 5 CEL pot prince Rigby, Crusade Vanguard 5 CEL PRE pot aus Herbert Westin 5 OBF PRE pot OBF PRE Wah Chun-Yuen 5 POT cel dom pre Black hand 4 cap Hector Sosa 4 POT pre Hugo 4 POT pre vic Mariano Pomposo 4 aus cel pot Black hand Reginald Moore 4 PRE primogen Victor Tolliver 4 CEL pot 3 cap Ariane 3 cel pot pre anarch Garret 3 pot pre Lynn Thompson 3 cel pot Sarah Brando 3 CEL 2 cap Arnold Simpson 2 pot Clifton Derrik 2 cel Honest Abe 2 pre Frederick the Weak 2 pre - Eurobrujah - Dmitra and Ko (with or without for) - Debate - CEL weenie - POT weenie - PRE weenie - Unexpected Coalition - Cardinal, 2 Arcbishops, 2 Prisci, 2 bishops, 3 black hand - 20/17/3 camarilla/sabbat/anarch Update: Two camarilla brujas was switched for sabbat ones to allow Unexpected Coalition deck. NC Russia

Toreadors in a little different style by showing logic I use Starting with the titles IC Alexandra 11 Raphael de C... 11 They are both different and useful. .2 Justicars Anneke 10 And actually that's all. Guil is totally useless, Montecalme disciplines are original, but also there are nothing which can be achieved with it. .3 Princes groups 1-2/2-3 got 5, so we need 5 Villon 10 he is not widely played, but actually he is quite cool Anson 8 we have to Ira Rivers 7 Marcellus 8 this two are staples in AUS CEL decks Epikasta R... 8 filler .8 Primogens Masika 10 staple Andreas, Bard of 9 staple + there are interesting pro splash Victoria Ash 6 I think it is important to include clan novel signature characters Antoinette 6 obf Eugene 8 filler .13 Cardinal Klaus Konrecht 8 Donatien looks striped of "points" .14 Priscus Venere Carboni 8 Matteus is too big .15 Archbishops Malabrabca 9 Melusine d'Anjou 8 as you see - for sabbat it's easy - just take best ones. In most cases you'll got no chance to over-strength their politic power .17 Bishops Rosa Martines 9 Miller Del...8 Jessika 7 Ian Walli... 6 I've just removed advanced ones. .21 Black hand Ondine "Boudicca" ... 9 I think she is better than Marthe Di Dominique Santo P... 6 Gabriel de ...5 .24 Anarch Victor Gerard 7 .25 Then we are just filling holes in capacity 2 cap Dieter Kleist Carter we need dorks with aus and cel, because pre was already "taken" by Ventrue and Bruja "neonates". aus looks better for camarilla, cel for sabbat .27 3 cap Isabel de Leon 3 staple Jonathan Gursel pre Yvette, the Hopeless cel pre must be represented .30 4 cap Bethany Ray Loonar Mariana Gilbert PRE. Jayne J was dropped from brujas, so we have to add one PRE weenie Dorian Strack Remilliard, Devout Crusader staples .35 5 cap Victor Revell, Loyalist CEL Amber Barth fillers .38 7 cap Kateline Nadasdy Arianne, The Conqueror .40 So something like it. Actually I'm mostly worried not because I'll miss something but because I may end with too many vampires for some strategy. NC Russia

By the way, when thinking about crypt for Brujah Debate and Palla Grande came to the conclusion, that clans must be "united" with it's antitribu brethren to make this project to work. Obviously it's possible to make smallcap crypt specially for those archetypes, but it kind of destroys whole concept of minimizing number of useless vampires. NC Russia

Clans were never meant to split in VTES anyway

> Squidalot wrote: > Clans were never meant to split in VTES anyway > NC Russia

So something like this: Palla Grande Type: Master Requires: Toreador Unique master. Put this card in play and put 3 debauchery counters on it. Sabbat vampires can bleed with +1 bleed as a action.. Remove a debauchery counter from this card at the end of each of your turns. Burn this card if it has no counters. Making it much less parasitic and much more fun for sabbat as a whole. NC Russia

> elotar wrote: > So something like this: > > Palla Grande > Type: Master > Requires: Toreador > Unique master. > Put this card in play and put 3 debauchery counters on it. Sabbat vampires can bleed with +1 bleed as a action.. Remove a debauchery counter from this card at the end of each of your turns. Burn this card if it has no counters. > > Making it much less parasitic and much more fun for sabbat as a whole. > This would make LoP sooo strong. Just need to pack the smallest !Tore with a title and have fun.

> cordovader wrote: > This would make LoP sooo strong. Just need to pack the smallest !Tore with a title and have fun. > Smallest Toreador with a title in presented crypt is 6 cap. I seriously doubt that adding several copies of such midcaps to LoP deck for a cardless computer hacking effect will be "too strong". Will it not be better to just play Computer Hacking deck? NC Russia

OK, continuing the project - thoughts about changing Palla Grande have lead me to making such deck and it was totally not fun to play, so i'm fine with the idea of exploring the idea for merging clans and fixing clan cards. Let's start from the beginning. Malkavians: As a default state cards requirements will change to "camarilla malkavian" or "sabbat malkavian". malkavians will mean both "halves". For others I'll provide full alternative text. I'll try to aim for total of 10 clan masters. 1. Petra Resonance - lore wise it's about their Antediluvian death/sleeping place, game wise there is still nobody better then Lutz to play it, so there are actually two ways to approach it. I prefer to left it camarilla only for some "pawns of elders" theme. 2. Muddled VH It's kind of fun having to think about putting some cam vampires onto crypt for him to be playable 3. Derange 4. Asylum HG - malkavians I see no point in two different HG. It's not very useful card anyway 5. Madness Network 6. Malkavian Prank - malkavians it looks like the best "mini game" master. i think one is enough 7. EMP using mortals as expendable weapons is fine for sabbat 8. Sibil's T... 9. Enchanted M 10. Malk... rider clause So it's 3 cards for both clans, 4 mono-camarilla, 3 sabbat. Looks fine to me. Update: I think it's fine to have all malkavian cards to be accessible to "whole" clan. If somebody will find a way to abuse it then i'll change something. NC Russia

With a probable Cam set on the horizon, you'd likely be better off looking at what reprints are logical, and then putting in your two cents regarding if they need changed. Total overhaul seems less productive than returning to print and making small potential changes that help simplify without ruining things. Just a thought.

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > With a probable Cam set on the horizon... > You have any reliable information about it? Anyway the question about needed reprints it extremely easy - just take top camarilla cards from ebay. Initial thought behind this project is that it's quite possible to "totally overhaul" the game without actually changing anything significant. Removing unplayable cards looks easy, removing grouping rule seemed hard, but actually it's going quite fine - most of "new possibilities opened by grouping rule" are actually just duplicates of existing ones (like Dolphin Black -> Morel), strict upgrades (Leandro -> Lutz) or can be easily mixed in one "group" (DEM weenie and M94). I'm still convinced that present overbloated state of the game is a significant problem to returning it to print as well as bad for the game in general. And until it'll be solved the problems with maintaining both growing player community as well as product availability will be persisting regardless of the game status. So I've decided that best way to approach the issue is not to pointlessly discuss it, but actually make "polished version of VtES". NC Russia

> elotar wrote: > > > ReverendRevolver wrote: > > With a probable Cam set on the horizon... > > > You have any reliable information about it? > www.vekn.net/2-uncategorised/379-vampire-elder-kindred-network-newsletter-august-2017

> BenPeal wrote: > > > elotar wrote: > > > > > ReverendRevolver wrote: > > > With a probable Cam set on the horizon... > > > > > > > > You have any reliable information about it? > > > www.vekn.net/2-uncategorised/379-vampire-elder-kindred-network-newsletter-august-2017 > It's a new .pdf set, not some reprints+ like anthology, as I got from RR post. I see no way how I can be help there, if my opinion is that main problem is too many cards NC Russia

> elotar wrote: > I'm still convinced that present overbloated state of the game is a significant problem to returning it to print as well as bad for the game in general. And until it'll be solved the problems with maintaining both growing player community as well as product availability will be persisting regardless of the game status. > > So I've decided that best way to approach the issue is not to pointlessly discuss it, but actually make "polished version of VtES". > Well, we have some precedents. Game of thrones card game rebooted itself in 2015 by introducing its second edition. GoT first edition (launched 2002) was suffering from the kind of bloatedness that you describe, and was difficult to approach by new players. Fantasy flight games rebooted the game into something that was notably NOT backwards compatible with the old game. As far as I know, the new version seems to be doing fine (I don't play it, but Ive seen tournaments of it in facebook). The second edition however, contains much of the same game mechanics as the old one, enough to be easily approachable by old players also. Developers merely removed the parts that didn't work and introduced some new ones, as far as I know. In a similar fashion, Netrunner card game from the 90s (which was assuredly dead, much deader than VTES) was rebooted into a new version of the game, Android: netrunner, in 2012. It also changed its mechanics slightly and is not backwards compatible. A:Netrunner is doing definitely well. Theres been a handful of official tournaments per year with official prizes (alternate art cards, playmats and the like). So these are the games I know with successful reboots, which we might want to try to emulate if we wish the best for VTES. Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

> Bloodartist wrote: > So these are the games I know with successful reboots, which we might want to try to emulate if we wish the best for VTES. > As I see maintaining backwards compatibility is not really a problem (unless you are a FFG and want to rip of players). In my view the process is quite easy - list of cards with most resent wordings is made available (online), so owners of old cards have to reference it during play (as it happens now with errated cards), and new cards (reprints) are published at any acceptable schedule and form with most resent wordings. Strategic depth and history is, as I see, one of the main strength of VtES. Going FFG LCG "style" with start of very limited pool and slow crawl to mature state by gradually introducing small sets of new cards during a decade is terrible. I doubt that I will be playing such a game. Idea to polish the game is not to reboot it completely, opposite of that - it's too make other options manageable. By now anybody thinking of returning the game to print have to decide between making it backward compatible and having to find a way to make ~3700 available to the new players or just drop all of it and reboot. Nobody sane will choose the first option. I'm trying to introduce a third way. NC Russia

So Ventrue Will try to aim for the same ratios, as in malkavian cards: 2 for both subclans: 1. Corporate HG - looks more cool to me 2. Ventrue Investment Master. Investment. Put this card in play with 1 blood on it for each Ventrue antitribu you control. You may use a master phase action to move 1 blood from this card to your pool. Burn this card if it has no blood. By the way Investments, as well as CyberPunk are two themes, which can be explored in a new camarilla set. They can be "weaved" together by a some "Cryptocurrency scam" card. 5 6 cards for "camarilla ventrue": 3. Ephor Put this card on a Ventrue with capacity 8 or more. This Ventrue gets +1 intercept and 1 additional vote. This Ventrue may force any vampire to yield a contested camarilla title as a +1 stealth action. 4. Hostile Takeover 5. Island of Yarros Type: Master Requires: Ventrue Cost: 2 pool Master: unique location. You may lock this card to give a camarilla vampire you control +X strength for one strike, where X is the number of votes the vampire has (e.g., a prince gets +2 strength). 6. Ventrue Directorate... Type: Master Requires: Camarilla Cost: 2 pool Master. Put this card in play. Each ready Ventrue gets an additional vote during political actions. This card may be burned by any minion as a action; Brujah get +1 stealth when attempting that action. 7. Ventrue Headquarters 8. Political Ally 2 cards for sabbat 9. Demonstration It's actually nearly the same as headquaters 9. Framing an Ancient Grudge 10. Recruiting Party Type: Action Requires: Ventrue Each Ventrue antitribu sabbat vampire in your uncontrolled region gains 1 blood from the blood bank. The only significant card which was "lost" - Political Ally. It's quite unplayable, but cool thematically. It can be just added as 11th card, or, preferable to me - putted into place of Hostile Takeover (which should be banned on the same grounds as ToGP). But before that HT has to stay in the pool. Update: Removed Recruiting Party - it's a dumb card in a clan, which has access to GtU NC Russia

Brujah Both subclans 1. Amusement Park HG - Lost Boys reference FTW! Camarilla 2. Brujah Debate What will happen if BD will became available to the subbat? Nothing? 3. Cartage Remembered Type: Master Requires: Brujah Cost: 1 pool Master. Put this card in play. Brujah princes and Brujah justicars Titled Brujah get +1 stealth on bleed actions. Any minion may burn this card as a action; Ventrue and Malkavians get -1 stealth on that action. 4. New Cartage 5. Arms Dealer - Ally theme for new camarilla set comes to mind. B) Maybe then we can think about brujah allies, which was there from the beginning and was sucking all this time Sabbat 6. Dogs of War Type: Political Action Requires: Brujah antitribu sabbat If this referendum passes, put this card in play. Any Brujah antitribu may enter combat with a ready minion as a action. You may burn this card to cancel a blood hunt called on a Brujah antitribu. Any vampire may call a referendum to burn this card as a +1 stealth political action. 7. Gang Territory Type: Master Requires: Brujah antitribu Sabbat Cost: 2 pool Master: unique location. During your influence phase, lock to move 1 blood from the blood bank to a Brujah antitribu in your uncontrolled region. 8. Spoils of War 9. Waste Management ... 10. Unexpected Coalition Unexpected Coalition Type: Action Modifier/Reaction Requires: Brujah antitribu Sabbat Only usable during a referendum. Each ready Brujah antitribu gets an additional vote this referendum. When tallying results, if any Brujah antitribu cast any votes or ballots in opposition to this Brujah antitribu's votes or ballots (or if this Brujah antitribu abstains), none of the additional votes from this card are counted. Some interesting interaction with brujah crypt appears - was pressed to switch couple cam. brujas for sabbat ones to allow Unexpected Coalition deck after deciding to keep it in the pool. Logic "more camarilla cards" was dropped here because of much needed help for antitribu of this clan. NC Russia

After some thought idea to go "Eldest are kholo" way (having both clan and sect requirements for a card) was looking more and more cumbersome. In a limited crypt it'll be terribly boring. So will try to make cards accessible to clans as a whole or to change to the "non parasitic scheme" presented earlier - requires [clan] -> vampires of [sect] got [effect]. NC Russia

SO in response to the question "But why?" your answer is to ignore? Ok, seeing as you have more than 80% of the posts in this thread i will just assume it is masturbation for no reason and ignore

> Blooded wrote: > SO in response to the question "But why?" your answer is to ignore? Ok, seeing as you have more than 80% of the posts in this thread i will just assume it is masturbation for no reason and ignore > I'm trying to figure this out myself. The "problem" being solved is "too many vampires". (Which is also what the grandfather in Lost boys says about his town at the end, but I digress). The "solution" seems to be removing more than 50% of the brown backed cards in print, and removing the grouping rule that keeps the crypt cards in balance in the first place. I'm not sold on a problem or solution.

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > and removing the grouping rule that keeps the crypt cards in balance in the first place. > Break it, please. NC Russia

I think this thread is simply an attempt to condense the card pool of crypt cards and removing what is "not necessary" from the game to streamline it for "VTES 2.0" re-release. Other threads have done this with library cards.

Quick run throe Toreador masters. reminder - as a default state all cards now require "Toreador" meaning both camarilla and sabbat members of the clan 1. Aching Beauty 2. Art Museum Requires: camarilla vampire [2 Pool] Master: unique location. During your influence phase, you may tap this card to move 1 blood from the blood bank to a Toreador in your uncontrolled region. 3. Arcane Appraiser there is a theme forming "1 clan ally". This one looks better then Eccentric Billionaire, but both are quite poor so maybe i'm wrong 4. Toreador Grand Ball Master. Cost: 1 pool Requires: camarilla vampire Put this card in play. Choose 2 ready Toreador you control. The first Toreador's non-bleed actions cannot be blocked. The second Toreador does not may chose to not untap as normal during the untap phase; tap the second Toreador. If the second Toreador untaps (by any means) burn Toreador Grand Ball Any minion may burn this card as a action; Nosferatu get -1 stealth when attempting that action. Nosferatu part was removed because I feel updated text will not fit in the text field. I hope you can guess why text has to be "updated" 5. Fetish Club Hunting Ground - 6. Art of Pain, The requires sabbat vampire [2 Pool] Unique master. Put this card on a ready Toreador. antitribu This vampire gets +2 strength. 7. Art Scam 8. Palla Grande requires sabbat vampire Unique master. Put this card in play and put 3 debauchery counters on it. Toreador antitribu get +1 bleed. Remove a debauchery counter from this card at the end of each of your turns. Burn this card if it has no counters. 9. Foundation Exhibit requires sabbat vampire Master: unique location. Each non-titled Toreador antitribu you control gets 1 additional vote. Any vampire may burn this card as a action that costs 1 blood. 10. Patronage [Action] requires: Toreador [1 Pool] +1 stealth action. Untap a younger non titled Toreador antitribu and this acting vampire. You may play only one Patronage per turn. next - Nosferatu, both crypt and library. NC Russia

> Blooded wrote: > Ok, seeing as you have more than 80% of the posts in this thread i will just assume it is masturbation for no reason and ignore > Widely agreeing Lurking in the underground of Bologna, Italy

> thelonius wrote: > > > Blooded wrote: > > Ok, seeing as you have more than 80% of the posts in this thread i will just assume it is masturbation for no reason and ignore > > > Widely agreeing > Come on, cant a guy have a hobby? "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

Sometimes I'm wondering what people want to hear in response when they write useless toxic comment? So Nosferatu Baba Yaga, the Iro 11 ANI AUS FOR OBF POT THA Josef von Bauren 11 ANI DEM OBF POT cel inner circle Alonso Petrodon 10 ANI DOM OBF POT for tha justicar Cailean 10 ANI OBF POT PRE dom archbishop Cock Robin 10 ANI OBF POT aus for justicar Ysador the Foul 10 ANI DEM FOR OBF POT obt cardinal Aeron 9 ANI OBF POT aus pro archbishop Ellison Humboldt 9 ANI OBF POT PRE pro primogen Julio Martinez 9 ANI DOM OBF POT nec bishop Khalid 9 ANI AUS OBF POT tha primogen Calebos 8 ANI OBF POT cel bishop Mateusz Gryzbowsky 8 ANI OBF POT Selma the Repugnan 8 OBF POT ani for prince Tarbaby Jack 8 ANI OBF POT dom ser Beast, The Leather 7 OBF POT ani cel Greensleeves 7 ANI OBF for pot priscus Murat 7 OBF POT ser prince Nikolaus Vermeulen 7 POT ani for obf prince Rabbat, The Sewer 7 ANI FOR OBF pot Teresita, The Godm 7 ANI OBF POT for Harold Tanner 6 POT ani dom obf Nosferatu:4 Humo 6 ANI POT obf obt !Nosferatu:4 Ingram Frizer 6 AUS OBF ani pot !Nosferatu:3 Medic, The 6 OBF POT dem for Nosferatu:5 Ox, Viceroy of the 6 ANI OBF POT !Nosferatu:2 Sundown 6 ANI POT obf pre Nosferatu:3 Amelia, The Blood 5 POT ani obf Nosferatu:3 Calebros, The Mart 5 ANI obf pot prince Nosferatu:2 Nails 5 POT ani obf pro !Nosferatu:4 Olivia 5 OBF POT vic bishop !Nosferatu:2 Raphael Catarari 5 OBF PRE aus pot tha !Nosferatu:4 Agatha 4 POT obf !Nosferatu:2 Agrippina 4 OBF pot Nosferatu:1 Beetleman 4 ANI obf Nosferatu:4 Sammy 4 ani obf pot Nosferatu:1 Clarissa Steinburg 3 ani obf Nosferatu:3 Darva Felispa 3 ani pot Nosferatu:3 Stick 3 ANI !Nosferatu:4 Dani 2 ani !Nosferatu:2 Nichodemus 2 pot Nosferatu:5 Main points of reference here are: Nos Royalty ANI weenie black hand ANI PRE OBF for splash Cock Robin rush combat Library 1. Inside Dirt 2. Kindred Intelligence 3. Nosferatu Bestial 4. SchreckNET 5. Courier 6. Labyrinth, The 7. Nosferatu Kingdom Type: Master Requires: Sabbat Vampire Cost: 2 pool Master: unique location. During your influence phase, lock to move 1 blood from the blood bank to a Nosferatu antitribu in your uncontrolled region. 8. Secret Library of Alexandria, The 9. Slum Hunting Ground 10. Warsaw Station Type: Master Requires: Camarilla Vampire Cost: 2 pool Master: unique location. You may lock this card when a Nosferatu announces an undirected action. If that action is successful, the acting Nosferatu unlocks. You may burn this card (even if it is locked) to move a Nosferatu in torpor to the ready region. Most cards works fine with "merged" clan, except Information Network, which is too good in combination with second tradition. As I don't really see +intercept as a way to go with !nos I've decided to drop it. NC Russia

A quick thought: If grouping were to be removed, should a rule be instated that says "All vampires in a crypt should be one-ofs, i.e. no duplicates." How would that fare? Would it break the game? Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex , Obfuscate , or Potence for the current action.

> LivesByProxy wrote: > A quick thought: > > If grouping were to be removed, should a rule be instated that says "All vampires in a crypt should be one-ofs, i.e. no duplicates." > > How would that fare? Would it break the game? > Yes it would; absolutely impossible to play anything coherent that has a star or even somewhat more important vampire than the others with such a restriction. Why not restrict library cards to 1 per card too? Also, grouping was very much needed. Trying to get rid of it would open a humongous can of worms. If you want to you and your playgroup sure can implement any kind of restrictions you are inclined to and have a blast playing the game the way you prefer, though! Finnish Politics!

> LivesByProxy wrote: > If grouping were to be removed, should a rule be instated that says "All vampires in a crypt should be one-ofs, i.e. no duplicates." > > How would that fare? Would it break the game? > Well, all vampires have been designed knowing that they could be duplicated. But a variety of vampires are expected to be duplicated, such as the non-unique vampires who are supposed to be played together. e.g. Aabbt Kindred, the Hermana blood brothers, Tupdogs. So you add an exception for the non-unique vampires. Then you think about the Hermana situation and think "Oh wait, but none of the circles of will fill a whole crypt", and having vampires out of three different circles is worse than useless. So you add an exception for the Blood Brothers. Then you look at the Laibon. Each clan has 15 different vampires, with one additional advanced vampire. Some of those vampires will be good, some less so - it's just the way of things. Compare with the Brujah (picking a random Camarilla clan) who have 65 different vampires, and seven additional advanced vampires. Some of those vampires will be good, some less so - but are there enough good vampires to fill a whole crypt just of coherent Brujah that mesh well together? Probably. Then you think, oh wait, we just mentioned advanced vampires. Don't they become a lot harder to play if you can only include one base and one advanced vampire in a crypt, rather than the current ability to have one or more of each? Don't advanced vampires already take a heck of a lot of effort to play? Aren't we making it a lot harder to use them well, if we restrict it to one of each per crypt? And sure, you can play Legacy or Epiphany or Gift of Experience - but those are pretty useless to you if you don't bring out either vampire, and with only two in a crypt, it's quite common that you won't see either. Then you think about Anarchs, and think what about Anarch Convert? Didn't we take care of that already with the non-unique vampire exception? Unfortunately, Anarch Convert is usually very temporary - but is unique Now obviously, the Red Question is a pretty decent alternative, but having the option of a combination of either or both has more or less gone. And that's before you get onto any vampires who have an unusual combination of disciplines, clans and/or abilities, who you can currently stack. This includes star vampire decks, but doesn't have to be only about them. Groups have sometimes been designed with a small splash of an out-of-clan discipline, knowing that that group can capitalize on it if it wants to by doubling or tripling up (or more) on some vampires. So a lot of those decks are going to be toast when there aren't suitable replacements - which sometimes there will be, but often there won't be, particularly for special abilities.

Can you explain the can of worms and why grouping was needed? I am a VTES noob, and even after reading about why grouping was needed on VTES Newbie (sites.google.com/site/vtesnewbie/common-questions) I do not understand the problem grouping fixed. If players are allowed to grab *any* vampire they need from *any* clan or sect (excluding the grouping rule) because they need certain disciplines for their deck, what did grouping solve? Thank you for your time. Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex , Obfuscate , or Potence for the current action.

> LivesByProxy wrote: > Can you explain the can of worms and why grouping was needed? I am a VTES noob, and even after reading about why grouping was needed on VTES Newbie (sites.google.com/site/vtesnewbie/common-questions) I do not understand the problem grouping fixed. > Building a crypt is supposed to be part of the craft of deck-building. Players aren't supposed to be able to create what LSJ (the lead designer at the time) referred to as a "custom crypt" or "dial a crypt". You're supposed to ram up against the fact that if you want lots of Princes in that crypt, you may have to double or triple up and so maybe get a tricky uncontrolled region some games. The fundamental original design of V:TES - drawing 4 vampires from a crypt of 12 - was supposed to represent that Methuselahs are incredibly powerful but still subject to outside forces, so some games you just won't be able to control Sir Walter Nash as both copies of him are on the bottom of your crypt. Then there are some very practical issues: 1) Weenies. What do you do? If you keep printing more of them, you end up in a world where you have more and more of them coming out, and people can put together hyper-refined weenie crypts. (In some cases with some disciplines, they can already get pretty close, because the discipline is common across multiple clans, even within a group pair.) Making weenies hyper efficient isn't generally a good thing. The alternative is to stop printing new weenies, which would have been annoying for new players buying boosters of new sets. (This is symptomatic of a wider problem with not printing new vampires to solve the problem another way, it's just it becomes particularly acute with weenies pretty quickly.) 2) New clans. If you have the Brujah with 72 different crypt cards and you want to introduce a new, fairly normal clan - say, the Guruhi - and you only have 12-15 crypt cards in the new set for them, that leaves them at an incredible disadvantage. Perhaps Paradox/new White Wolf would want to bring back Cappadocians in a new WoD rework, perhaps Old Clan Tzimisce emerge, perhaps whatever. As you keep creating new vampires, you have 70, 80, 90... vampires in an existing Camarilla clan, vs how many new vampires for a new clan? A dozen new vampires vs roughly 20-25 in a group pair isn't anywhere near as terrible as 12 vs 72. 3) Continually escalating power if you have all the cards. There are 19 different Ventrue Princes or Justicars, across all sets (including Victor Pelletier). You can create a crypt of 12 different Princes or Justicars with zero duplicates, in a world without grouping. In a world with grouping, the maximum is 7 or 8, and you wouldn't necessarily want to play some of them because they're over-costed / under-powered / slightly weird (e.g. Suhailah is a bit odd with her no Dom and no Pre, but you still see her a little in Group 2 Ventrue decks because she has Obf/For and a title). To compete, a new player rapidly needs the vampires from all the sets - they can't just buy some of the latest base set, and a couple of recent expansions, they need to go off buying single vampires from every set ever. Further, old players have to keep buying blocks of new vampires just to keep up, whereas with grouping a group 2/3 Sabbat deck's crypt should be hopefully roughly as powerful as that 4/5 Camarilla deck, even if the player hasn't bought many new vampires since group 3 (or whatever), making it easier for older players to stay involved with the game. The very common response to this, when grouping was first announced, was "Well, print fewer new vampires." But lots of players like having new toys, and companies like selling people new stuff. The weenie problem can be solved by just never printing new weenies - but by extension, you end up having to stop printing new vampires altogether. Once you have so many Lasombra archbishops, that's it, no more, ever. By creating a new group, you can try that funky group 6/7 Lasombra antitribu Camarilla variant, without inflating the power of Lasombra overall. You can create that group 6/7 Malkavian deck with a side of demented Animalism, without inflating the power of every Malkavian deck ever. You can have that new group 6/7 Ramanga clan, without feeling the need to print 50+ vampires for it so that it can compete with the existing powerful clans. And so on.