Great set, excellent card selection, but if you don't live in Europe, unbuyable.
Excellent way to show how important certain regions are. Basically, VEKN and WW have now declared that if you don't live in Europe, and don't have enkil/sh/amazing collection in this set, you can go fuck yourselves.
Amazing. Makes me really happy to have supported VtES for so long. Oh, wait, no, that's not it......
You honestly think that VEKN should not have taken this chance to get cards printed again? I'm not absolutely sure if I can make it to EC this year, but I'm OVERJOYED that cards will be printed again. This is something we have hoped for worked for several years. Hopefully this'll lead into even more printed cards.
Certainly doesn't warrant a reaction you are now giving.
Regarding importance of regions, remember that EC has always been THE VTES event of the year, easily dwarfing the biggest events of other regions. Where else could this be done than in the event where we have maximum attendance?
Also, I seem to recall having met many a year at EC plenty of players from outside Europe.
Not that it should be in any way relevant to this, but with many a game the "World" Championships are organized in USA, usually in GenCon with all kinds of special exclusive stuff handed out either there or also in other big US conventions with no thought of international community. So if you're from States, you are now experiencing something players from other parts of the world have been experiencing for several decades.
Finnish Politics!
While I would not have expressed the sentiment in as inflammatory a way as the original author, frankly, this was not a good decision. All the more so because it's my perception (and please, let me know if I'm wrong, I have NOT been following discussions on the VEKN forum over the years very closely at all) that the people who made the decision didn't consult the membership about it in any way, shape, or form. They just seemed to assumed the good will of the players.
I quit Dragon Dice altogether when the makers of that game started pulling this kind of crap. Granted, now that players can reproduce most cards for tournaments - except in some circumstances - this is not as bad as before that rule existed. But creating a limited supply of cards only available in such a profoundly unbalanced way is not a healthy thing for a CCG, IMO.
Fred
> Lönkka wrote:
> Where else could this be done than in the event where we have maximum attendance?
>
Well, no place. I think that's kind of the point: it should have been done in no place.
Fred, you are mistaken.
Membership has been polled.
National Coordinators have been discussing f2f at ECs (since it is the largest VTES gathering).
If you do not follow what is going on with the game besides very occasionally, then I don't think you should feel justified to complain about how things are handled.
But you are saying that since some people don't have a ready access to this set because they are not able to attend Berlin, VEKN shouldn't have arranged this printing of Anthology Set?
Even as it means that after several years we will now have cards printed again?
After which it should be easier to get even more cards printed?
Decision like these are not ones that are handled in internet forum where the discussions tend to degenerate withing few posts to something that is of no use to anything and rarely has anything to do with the original posting.
This is why we have Inner Circle members and perhaps to lesser degree National Coordinators. Especially the big boys of the IC know what they are doing and act with the game's best interest in mind. Without any pay or compensation for just the love of the game.
But hey, feel free to complain how they've done the players wrong by GETTING THE CARDS BACK INTO PRINT AGAIN!
Finnish Politics!
> Lönkka wrote:
> Fred, you are mistaken.
>
> Membership has been polled.
> National Coordinators have been discussing f2f at ECs (since it is the largest VTES gathering).
>
> If you do not follow what is going on with the game besides very occasionally, then I don't think you should feel justified to complain about how things are handled.
>
To the contrary, I am perfectly justified in doing this. Granted, my ignorance of what people are saying face-to-face in a place thousands of miles from where I play may impact my opinion. This is why I solicited people to fill me in on how this may have been discussed, given that I've never seen any hint of it online.
But that said, I still have a perfect right to my opinion. And I still think distributing limited printings of cards in Berlin was a very bad idea. GOSH - you're saying that many people who attended prior European Continental Championships thought it was a great idea to distribution special promos ONLY at another European Continental Championship in the future?!? How is THAT surprising? People are selfish and like to get special privileges. I still think that's bad idea to indulge.
> Lönkka wrote:
> But you are saying that since some people don't have a ready access to this set because they are not able to attend Berlin, VEKN shouldn't have arranged this printing of Anthology Set?
>
It's not merely the printing of the Anthology Set that's that problem. It's the distribution of the set in such an unfair manner. If they would have printed it and sold it mail order to whoever wanted to buy it, that would be perfectly fine.
> Lönkka wrote:
> Even as it means that after several years we will now have cards printed again?
> After which it should be easier to get even more cards printed?
>
Absolutely. Creating discord and rancor among players is not worth the trouble. CCGs are not like normal games. This was discovered by Wizards of the Coast soon after they published MtG. Players who don't have special cards still have to play against players who do, so it's important to be at least reasonably fair about how cards are made available and distributed.
> Lönkka wrote:
> Decision like these are not ones that are handled in internet forum where the discussions tend to degenerate withing few posts to something that is of no use to anything and rarely has anything to do with the original posting.
>
> Lönkka wrote:
> But hey, feel free to complain how they've done the players wrong by GETTING THE CARDS BACK INTO PRINT AGAIN!
>
It isn't clear to me that's what the situation boils down to. I am completely in favor getting cards into print that are for general sale. On the other hand, I think printing cards that are distributed in an unfair, extremely limited way is the opposite of a good thing. And I sure don't see why we would ever have to accept the latter to get the former.
Fred
If the game was still in print and if the set was only offered for the EC with nothing comparable to the NAC and if possession of the cards put an undue competitive advantage over those who didn't have them, I could buy into the unfairness of it all.
But, the game is currently out of print. It's not impossible to do something special for this year's NAC or next year's NAC to provide some balance. It's not clear to me that not having these cards prevents having fun playing the game.
And, as much as I hate distribution of chase cards that seems to unduly advantage certain play groups, I make some sort of exception for major events. What draws people to create larger events is having something special offered. In some cases, that may be money. In some cases, that may be swag, such as promos not widely available. In some cases, like how so many players got put on to V:TES cards, you will have something like an artist taking photos of players to use as models only at a particular event. (Note how how many players at the NAC in California ended up on cards, including some who don't travel much to major events.)
At 20 euros, let's say you can get them from speculators or allies or whomever later at 40 euros. Somewhat less than spending $2500 to get new cards. No, it's not "let's create a web site and sell off LARP crypt cards and chase cards for whatever plus shipping", but the game is in a precarious place and no one is trying to screw over most of the world's players.
It may not be an ideal situation, but it's one I can understand. Contrast with card game publishers who seemed to have no respect for their casual players, like the publishers of the original DBZ CCG who banned a common that did the same thing as an ultrarare or who created championship promo cards that allowed you to name a card type that couldn't be played in games (though, to be fair, I don't recall how legal this card was in events after it was rewarded).
Traveller Card Game
Fred, following this forum more often and closely would've kept you at least somewhat knowledgeable on where VEKN and the game were at. But, according to your own comment, you "have NOT been following discussions on the VEKN forum over the years very closely at all".
EC is only the biggest gathering f2f of the players of the game, hence it makes sense to take care of most anything requiring f2f presence there.
I already said it elsewhere, but I'll repeat it here that for decades on end us non-Americans have had to endure the fact that the players in the Colonies were heaped upon all kinds of nifty convention-only components for various games (luckily not VTES) in GenCon etc where they were playing "World" Championships basically among themselves that the reminder of the world just had to have wet dreams about. I always thought how much whining would ensue if the roles were reversed. It seems that I'm beginning to find out right now. I'm not saying the past justifies anything, but I'm tempted to ask how do you like them apples now...
As far as I understand the idea to distribute the set to attendees of the event only came from White Wolf. Or they at least wanted us to hold EC at the event and pay for triple our usual entrance fee. To give us incentive to attend the event even with the high cost VEKN requested that Anthology Set should be made available a the event.
I seriously doubt that WW would've been interested in printing any kind of cards without us having EC at the Berlin event. Now they are getting us under their umbrella and can, with the optional extra copies people can order, gauge the demand for the game, so they'll be able to see if it is worth while to print more cards in the future. Hopefully people will order extras heavily and make them realize that there still is big demand for the game we love!
Of course WW wants as many of us to arrive to the Berlin event as possible. How many would you think would attend if the Anthology Set was made publicly available via other sources? I've stressed that we should try to run as many demos there as possible as I can't imagine more suited audience for the demos than the event's participants! Being at the Berlin event means that we'll get more exposure among people that are very deeply into the background material our game is using. No better place to try to recruit new blood, eh?
Let me stress here that I'm not sure if I as an European will be able to attend, but I still think that this is STUPENDUOUSLY good for the game! How many years have we hoped that the game would have new printed cards again? And once the first set is printed, it is more likely to have following cards printed, and distributed hopefully via normal channels, than if the Anthology Set hadn't been done.
I doubt that the current WW has much experience in distributing printed material via the usual, or any other, channels either, so any other option probably wouldn't have been a viable for a trial run to gauge the game's demand.
Please elaborate how you would have handled the printing and distribution the set. Especially as WW hadn't previously committed to it in any way and we were highly unsure who had the right and to what. Oh, and VEKN not having any money (or any kind of business/corporate entity) at all since we are merely a player organization.
You know, people have been trying their darnest to get the game back into print since it was killed the second time...
Finnish Politics!
Well, let's aside the question of, "What could POSSIBLY go wrong with the idea of polling people who attend the ECC about whether it's a good idea to distribute special neato keeno promo cards at the next ECC?" for a moment and take up a different question.
I would also love to know why it is that getting VTES back into print hinges on printing special promo sets at all? If someone wants to print VTES cards, why can't they just print what they print and offer it for sale to everybody who wants one?
It appears to me that getting an Anthology set isn't directly connected to attending the ECC as you can also get one by engaging someone else who attend the ECC to preorder one for you, pick it up there, and get it to you by whatever means. Why not just go one step further and provide a means for anyone to order one who wants one? If you're concerned that you might undercut the promotional aspects of inducing attendance at the ECC, you can jack the price up higher and, perhaps, include an artificial delay in delivering the cards to non-attendees. The price increase would help fund the cost of providing the service. And the end result is that you move more cards to more places in the world, which would only be a good thing.
Not ideal, as you say - but certainly an acceptable to alternative to forcing everyone to hop around and find their own solution.
Fred
> Lönkka wrote:
> I already said it elsewhere, but I'll repeat it here that for decades on end us non-Americans have had to endure the fact that the players in the Colonies were heaped upon all kinds of nifty convention-only components for various games (luckily not VTES) in GenCon etc where they were playing "World" Championships basically among themselves that the reminder of the world just had to have wet dreams about. I always thought how much whining would ensue if the roles were reversed. It seems that I'm beginning to find out right now. I'm not saying the past justifies anything, but I'm tempted to ask how do you like them apples now...
>
I do not believe you are relating the facts quite accurately. Granted, Wizards of the Coast engaged in some fast-and-loose distribution methods of their first two promos (Mariana Gilbert and Dan Murdock) and the impact may have been VAGUELY similar to this situation - but not quite. Gilbert and Murdock were distributed at different events over the years, not just at one single place and one single event. And, if I recall correctly, for a time there were ways of obtaining them directly from WotC or White Wolf.
Anyway, be that as it may, I was not any more in favor of the practice when it benefited U.S. players than I am now that it benefits European players. Two wrongs don't make a right. The vast majority of promo cards distributed by White Wolf have been distributed in a perfectly fair manner: they were just as available to organizers of European tournaments as they were to organizers of American tournaments, as far as I know.
> Lönkka wrote:
> As far as I understand the idea to distribute the set to attendees of the event only came from White Wolf. Or they at least wanted us to hold EC at the event and pay for triple our usual entrance fee. To give us incentive to attend the event even with the high cost VEKN requested that Anthology Set should be made available a the event.
>
(remainder of the explanation connecting reprinting of VTES cards with promotional nature of anthology set elided for brevity)
OK, thank you for clearing that up for me. It seems our posts "crossed", and I asked the question again in response to Ian's post.
Still, that point seems rather tenuous to me. White Wolf is only willing to reprint the cards in order to use to hold a gun to players' heads and demand attendance to World of Darkness. That doesn't strike me as much of a guarantee that they'll ever print any more cards in the future for any purpose except this sort of thing again. And this is a bad thing. If sets become effectively available on the secondary market at a reasonably inflated price, that will mitigate the bad considerably. But I think you may prove wildly optimistic to to suggest that this amounts to breathing life into the printing of the game again.
> Lönkka wrote:
> Please elaborate how you would have handled the printing and distribution the set.
>
Please see my response to Ian. Basically, offer the sets for general sale at an inflated price and on delayed basis.
> Lönkka wrote:
> You know, people have been trying their darnest to get the game back into print since it was killed the second time...
>
Yes, of course I know that. And I'd love to see that, too. But I'm frankly skeptical that this is the path accomplish this result. Or worse, if there are more reprints, that they'll just be more privilege special-release promos intended to blackmail players into showing up at more special events. That would be a very bad outcome.
Fred
EC attendees haven't been polled, but VEKN has made at least a couple of polls to the whole playerbase via online polls.
At ECs NCs have given their opinions on various subjects (whether IC has used this in their decision making is beyond me). Want to see what has been talked in the NC meetings? Dig up the transcripts here in this forum. They are commonly available posts.
When I brought up the previously available nifty stuff, I specifically said "luckily not VTES" so no need to bring up the couple old promo cards that i wasn't talking about. ICL presented the same idea referring the DGB CCG in his post.
Jacking up the initial price means that the 2nd hand purchasers would have to cough up even more inflated prices. So I think that is definitely the wrong way to go. With the Berlin Anthology the price for the "free" set included in the attendance is high but the more you purchase extra copies, the cheaper they become.
You do not believe that this Anthology gives us a chance to get more cards printed. At least in regular ones.
I think it gives us way more chances than we've had since the game went out of print for the second time. Hence, we needed to take this chance and see where it leads.
Finnish Politics!
> Lönkka wrote:
>
> EC attendees haven't been polled, but VEKN has made at least a couple of polls to the whole playerbase via online polls.
> .
>
Then I would say I'm confused why I saw no poll about this. Ben has always been very diligent about mirroring any important VEKN polls to the Facebook VEKN groups and I recall no polls covering a possibility like distributing promo sets at single specific events. Or anything close to it. I don't follow the VEKN forums very closely but I miss very little on the FB groups.
> Lönkka wrote:
>
> When I brought up the previously available nifty stuff, I specifically said "luckily not VTES" so no need to bring up the couple old promo cards that i wasn't talking about.
>
OK, my apologies for misunderstanding. Like I said, I got out of Dragon Dice for exactly this kind of behavior. Granted, Dragon Dice was never a particularly interesting game in the first place so getting out of it wasn't exactly a huge sacrifice. But point is, VTES has never engaged in these kinds of practices and that's exactly one of the reasons I've wholeheartedly played and collected the cards over the years.
> Lönkka wrote:
>
> Jacking up the initial price means that the 2nd hand purchasers would have to cough up even more inflated prices. So I think that is definitely the wrong way to go.
>
Sorry, I don't see the problem - as long as the increase isn't too unreasonable. (As Ian said, paying 40 euros instead of 20 would be fine.) People who don't want them, don't need to buy them. But at least it frees you from either traveling (some people simply can not attend no matter what the price if they have a conflict, for instance) or from finding an angel to buy for you. How does this hurt anything?
> Lönkka wrote:
>
> You do not believe that this Anthology gives us a chance to get more cards printed. At least in regular ones.
>
> I think it gives us way more chances than we've had since the game went out of print for the second time. Hence, we needed to take this chance and see where it leads.
>
More chances? More chances than what? The chances have always existed. They just didn't come to fruition. It's unreasonable to make some strange comparison between the known failures of the past and an uncertain result in the future. Of course the uncertain always looks better than known failure - but that doesn't mean the price paid to take the gamble was worthwhile. It all depends on the price paid and the chances of success.
Fred
Framing this as a hostile decision by the VEKN strikes me as very odd. They had to work with Paradox to get these sets printed at all; saying that the VEKN are [insert pejorative here] because they didn't decide to get cards printed for everyone, when that decision wasn't theirs to make, seems awfully misguided.
Put another way: Without the efforts of the VEKN, there would be zero cards being printed right now. Complaining that there are only some cards being printed, at a limited availability, is essentially ignoring the fact that 1 > 0.
(I say all this as a US player who most likely won't be able to get his hands on any of these newly-printed cards.)
Here is my biggest issue: I saw a ad for attendies to prepurchase additional sets. An enterprising EC attendant could crowd-source some funds, preorder some hundreds of sets, and distribute them to the crowd.
Why not skip the middleman and sell direct? O right, licensing. Can someone do what I suggested above? I'll buy a set.
Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.
To those who read into my initial post that I have an issue with cards being reprinted has a serious reading comprehension issue.
My issue is that a specific part of the player bas is being unfairly advantaged over a VERY large number of other players, simply due to geographic advantages.
If they had at least also tried a method of "20 euro at EC, 25/30 online + shipping" I would have no issue. As it stands, it is simply a eurocentric move advantaging a part of the player base while directly disadvantaging those who cannot afford 2500EU for a set of cards.
> Blooded wrote:
> As it stands, it is simply a eurocentric move advantaging a part of the player base while directly disadvantaging those who cannot afford 2500EU for a set of cards.
>
Sorry I have to do this...
Europe first! Lets make Europe great again!
With that out of my system...
Stop complaining and utilise the community who's already offering on getting the sets distributed outside of the euro zone.
And if you want premium prices, support this undertaking and hopefully VEKN will be able to do this on more international events and perhaps get VTES back into stores again.
> direwolf wrote:
> Why not skip the middleman and sell direct? O right, licensing.
>
And most likely: I believe something needs to be proved towards stakeholders first, before they decide go big.
It's a HUGE step going from a very localised distribution to worldwide distribution.
Be patient and hope this phase is a huge success and enough to justify a next phase.
-1 Strength
I think the fail at math is the real problem here.
By now you can buy, for example, enkil cog, for 60 +/- euros at ebay or for 150 euros + travel cost + accommodation at the EC2017.
There is no advantage for European players at all.
And obviously contents of the set will hit ebay immediately after the event for the prices incomparable with the costs of attending EC.
Complains are just silly.
NC Russia
> elotar wrote:
> I think the fail at math is the real problem here.
>
> By now you can buy, for example, enkil cog, for 60 +/- euros at ebay or for 150 euros + travel cost + accommodation at the EC2017.
>
> There is no advantage for European players at all.
>
> And obviously contents of the set will hit ebay immediately after the event for the prices incomparable with the costs of attending EC.
>
> Complains are just silly.
>
See, that travel cost? that travel cost is about 1500 Euros. that is a wee fucking bit expensive, matey
> Blooded wrote:
>
> > elotar wrote:
> > I think the fail at math is the real problem here.
> >
> > By now you can buy, for example, enkil cog, for 60 +/- euros at ebay or for 150 euros + travel cost + accommodation at the EC2017.
> >
> > There is no advantage for European players at all.
> >
> > And obviously contents of the set will hit ebay immediately after the event for the prices incomparable with the costs of attending EC.
> >
> > Complains are just silly.
> >
> See, that travel cost? that travel cost is about 1500 Euros. that is a wee fucking bit expensive, matey
>
Erm, you're not getting what Elotar is saying... You don't have to travel to get the cards...
As we speak, there's already "Ashur's tablet" (multiple) available on e-bay for 5 euros each.
-1 Strength
> kushiel23 wrote:
>
> Put another way: Without the efforts of the VEKN, there would be zero cards being printed right now. Complaining that there are only some cards being printed, at a limited availability, is essentially ignoring the fact that 1 > 0.
>
If you are implying that any new cards printed are always better than no new cards being printed at all, I disagree. In a CCG, poorly distributed cards can be a very bad thing.
Fred
> Blooded wrote:
> The set is 20 euros, and has far more than just 3 ashurs tablets.....
>
Added costs (hotel/travel/admittance) for europeans outside of germany (or within germany for that matter, it's a big country) will range from 400-800 euros.
So yeah, I (someone from europe) would've loved to only pay 20 euros for a mail-order as well.
But I understand why this is not currently possible.
And I have the same option as you, to ask someone to pick up a set or two for me.
But this is all just short term thinking, the grandscheme here is threefold.
- The value of those cards will plummet on ebay, might not even be worthwhile to resell.
- This is just the first time this happens, more sets might be distributed at more international events.
- If successful, VTES might hit the stores worldwide, making this complain thread rather silly in retrospect.
-1 Strength
> fredsct wrote:
>
> > kushiel23 wrote:
> >
> > Put another way: Without the efforts of the VEKN, there would be zero cards being printed right now. Complaining that there are only some cards being printed, at a limited availability, is essentially ignoring the fact that 1 > 0.
> >
> If you are implying that any new cards printed are always better than no new cards being printed at all, I disagree. In a CCG, poorly distributed cards can be a very bad thing.
>
> Fred
>
Lol. Hilarious.
Prince of Dallas
Toreador Grand Ball: Dallas
August 13, 2022
> ruiza97 wrote:
>
> > fredsct wrote:
> >
> > > kushiel23 wrote:
> > >
> > > Put another way: Without the efforts of the VEKN, there would be zero cards being printed right now. Complaining that there are only some cards being printed, at a limited availability, is essentially ignoring the fact that 1 > 0.
> > >
> > >
> > If you are implying that any new cards printed are always better than no new cards being printed at all, I disagree. In a CCG, poorly distributed cards can be a very bad thing.
> >
> Lol. Hilarious.
>
Um, sure.
Lol, hilarious to you, too, fella...
> fredsct wrote:
> If you are implying that any new cards printed are always better than no new cards being printed at all, I disagree. In a CCG, poorly distributed cards can be a very bad thing.
>
In the case of a game that's been dead for years, and is now getting cards printed for it due to the work of a group of volunteers, when there was every indication that there'd never be any more cards printed? Printed by a successful company which, if they see enough interest in the very limited printrun that they've got planned, are much more likely to take the next step of releasing more sets of new cards? For a game in which rarity and power have almost never had any direct relationship?
In that context, you're cranky because "but the cards aren't properly distributed"? Really?
> kushiel23 wrote:
>
> > fredsct wrote:
> > If you are implying that any
> > In that context, you're cranky because "but the cards aren't properly distributed"? Really?
> >
> Yep. I guess these point just don't impress me that much.
>
> Fred
>
I can think of very few situations where it is not a good idea to get cards printed after such a long period with no new cards entering the vtes bloodstream. Sure it would be preferable to not be exclusive to any one event but if the choice was print them and tie it to an event or print nothing then it is Imo clearly far better to print. The goodwill of the community will I am sure make sets available to non eu players and it seems likely to me that this model could be used at a future NAC if seen as successful by the stakeholders.
In short the pros significantly outweigh the cons.
Cards in print mean nothing outside of the small (by comparison to the whole population of players) number of attendees that will have access to it.
Release sale to anyone worldwide after the event and there will be no problem. Doing anything less simply enables the scalpers to benefit.
> talonz wrote:
> Cards in print mean nothing outside of the small (by comparison to the whole population of players) number of attendees that will have access to it. [citation needed]
>
I have to admit that i'm still pretty salty about all the hoops that I will have to jump through to get this set (though not as salty as some), but I still recognize that getting cards printed > not getting cards printed.
It'd be baller as fuck if there were a teensy bit more transparency on White Wolf's end and if they planned to make the Anthology set available to the rest of us schlubs. Maybe all us concerned citizens should email white wolf. If enough noise is made, perhaps we'd at least get an answer to our questions.
> self wrote:
> all the hoops that I will have to jump through to get this set
>
Wait for a week after EC, go to ebay, buy this set.
Very complicated!
NC Russia
Not sure if tens/hundreds of poorly written unpolite and annoyed messages to WW will help VTES. Or to get the set to larger circulation.
Finnish Politics!
So you're inferring the VTES player base too illiterate, rude, and temperamental to petition White Wolf effectively? That's a pretty elitist viewpoint you've got there.
> elotar wrote:
> Wait for a week after EC, go to ebay, buy this set.
> Very complicated!
>
because buying cards off of eBay on the secondary market in no way puts money in white wolf's pocket? Is it so strange that I want to directly support a product and the company that makes it?
> Lönkka wrote:
> Not sure if tens/hundreds of poorly written unpolite and annoyed messages to WW will help VTES. Or to get the set to larger circulation.
>
if one were to go by the vitriol slung around in these message boards, you have a point. However, I was very polite.
> Ankha wrote:
> I suggest that everyone waits until the EC and sees what's happening next.
>
is this because you Know Something that we don't? Blink twice and complain about the weather if true.
> self wrote:
>
> > Lönkka wrote:
> > Not sure if tens/hundreds of poorly written unpolite and annoyed messages to WW will help VTES. Or to get the set to larger circulation.
> >
> if one were to go by the vitriol slung around in these message boards, you have a point. However, I was very polite.
>
True. And even if you weren't polite, I believe everybody here understands the difference between replying on an internet forum and submitting a formal letter to a company.
> Lönkka wrote:
> Not sure if tens/hundreds of poorly written unpolite and annoyed messages to WW will help VTES. Or to get the set to larger circulation.
>
A million crappy messages would do the trick though, which won't happen since there aren't that many active players.
So the best approach is whats being done right now, promote the crap out of it on an event, measure interest growth and conversion and use the statistics to justify bigger print runs.
It might take several (international) events
-1 Strength
I got a response!
"We are looking into this, and you will have news in this regard soon.
Thank you for supporting VTES, and for your patience."
take it as you will.
The general level of reading comprehension in this thread is shocking.
As such, here is the lowbrow variant of what I said for those who seem intellectually incapable of comprendhing what I was saying:
Cards being reprinted? YAY
Said cards only being available to a very limited group of players? SUCKS!
Having an ENORMOUS respsone to a potential reprint? YAY
Having that response crushed due to not wanting to sell as many possible sets as WW can? BAFFLING and STUPID.
I am organising a group buy of sets. We are at over 100 sets and counting. So yeah, zero desire for this in South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, US, Canada, Brazil.
Maybe, just maybe, Lonke, you could see my point that reprinting is aweosme, but being elitist about the FIRST REPRINT IN A VERY LONG TIME is a dumb, bad and counter-productive way of going about it
> Blooded wrote:
> The general level of reading comprehension in this thread is shocking.
> As such, here is the lowbrow variant of what I said for those who seem intellectually incapable of comprendhing what I was saying:
>
Yeah, this is a great way to foster an actual conversation.
> Blooded wrote:
> The general level of reading comprehension in this thread is shocking.
>
What's shocking is the amount of spelling errors in your post.
> kushiel23 wrote:
>
> > Blooded wrote:
> > The general level of reading comprehension in this thread is shocking.
> > As such, here is the lowbrow variant of what I said for those who seem intellectually incapable of comprendhing what I was saying:
> >
> Yeah, this is a great way to foster an actual conversation.
>
The idea of a conversation went out the window the moment everyone started misattributing, misquoting and basically completely twisting what I said d into something it was not.
So,
I haven't had much time to be on the forums lately, and can state these facts regarding the topic:
I live in Ohio. I can't, and therefore won't be attending the EC. I would like to have those cards, and will scrape for them when possible.
But the decision to distribute the cards at the EC was the correct one. I'd say that about anything that ends in cards being printed.
Reasons for outrage?
In psychology, there are certain logical phalluses, biases and such, if you follow. One category of these is a fairness bias, incidentally more common in the States than elsewhere (statistically, I'd have to find old textbooks to cite...). So, not an excuse, but a real thing anyway. I'm not as happy as I would be if NAC hosted the set, but attendance and visibility matters for the future prospects of being printed.
Big picture: in print >not in print= correct.
> ReverendRevolver wrote:
> So,
> But the decision to distribute the cards at the EC was the correct one. I'd say that about anything that ends in cards being printed.
> Reasons for outrage?
> In psychology, there are certain logical phalluses, biases and such, if you follow. One category of these is a fairness bias, incidentally more common in the States than elsewhere (statistically, I'd have to find old textbooks to cite...). So, not an excuse, but a real thing anyway. I'm not as happy as I would be if NAC hosted the set, but attendance and visibility matters for the future prospects of being printed.
>
> Big picture: in print >not in print= correct.
>
I think your reduction of the problem is wrong and thus your conclusion is erroneous. You seem to be conflating the issue with a political one, where fairness often comes up in how the law should treat different issues WRT to attempting to be fair or not, depending on how one reasons through the philosophical and pragmatic issues. But this isn't the law. This is a game and for very pragmatic reasons, the rules of the game need to be fair or people won't participate and it dies. I think what confuses a lot of people vis CCGs is that they forget that opportunities to obtain the product are actually real, practical parts of actually playing the game. (To make it clear, even if *I* don't have own a given card, I may still have to play against someone who does.)
Distributing a special privilege promotional set of cards that are distributed in an extremely unfair manner has been at the top of my list of what-NOT-to-dos in CCGs for over 20 years. Historically, I note that VtES has done a pretty good job of avoiding that, Marianna Gilbert and Dan Murdoct promos possibly excepted (although I believe even these could be had by tournament organizers who tried hard enough for a couple years). I consider distributing promos at only one single event in the entire world to be the exact opposite of a good thing for a CCG.
The other piece of your reasoning seems to rest on the idea that this act of extreme player blackmail will somehow result in reviving the game back into print. I'm completely skeptical about how the one results in the other. Negotiating with new WW to allow them to print promos for this purpose strikes me as mostly as just setting precedent for future dealings with WW: further promo prints to blackmail more VtES players to attend non-VtES events. (Assuming anything further is ever printed at all, of course...) I'd like to think I'm wrong about that, but momma don't have no idealistic sons. At least, not at this point in my life.
You, Sir, seem to continuously perceiving the glass as half empty.
Someone naming you a sourpuss might not be all that wrong.
The good Mr. Benjamin Peal just suggested in another thread that the organizers have been impressed with the order numbers for the set which, in more positive mindset would be augured as a positive sign for the future of the possible additional reprints.
Finnish Politics!
i totally understand why you're so salty over this, and honestly, I largely agree with you. But after seven years of the game being in torpor, new cards are being printed. full stop. New cards.
I wrote an email to white wolf asking them why they were making it so hard for me to give them money. and it seems I wasn't the only one, because not too long afterwards they made the announcement that the set would be made available to more vekn events.
> Lönkka wrote:
> You, Sir, seem to continuously perceiving the glass as half empty.
> ...
> The good Mr. Benjamin Peal just suggested in another thread that the organizers have been impressed with the order numbers for the set which, in more positive mindset would be augured as a positive sign for the future of the possible additional reprints.
>
Huh?!? Well, OF COURSE the order numbers for the set are high - due to the artificial rarity conditions created by the requirement that one can only get these by attending the single event in Berlin. The collectible attraction of artificial rarity has long been understood and exploited by sports and gaming card industry. The trouble is caused by the corresponding damage it does to the perceived fairness of the game, for reasons I've already mentioned.
I will also add that "high" is an entirely unspecific comparative term that's pretty much meaningless, here. I'm sure Ben is being sincere about his impression of the numbers but I don't think it's worth us taking much comfort from such a description at this point. To really mean much, I'd want hear phrases like "flooded with orders" and "people are stunned" to be much impressed that I'm likely going to be wrong about this in the end.
I'm not quite sure what we are actually complaining about here?
Is it surprising that a european-based publisher/new licenseholder wanted to do a production test-run of a game that has been off the shelves for 5+ years after dwindling interest, and decided to keep it limited to gauge said interest, while boosting attendance at their own event? It doesn't seem all that surprising...
With regards to fairness, it has been mentioned that people without access to the Anthonlogy set, would be at a disadvantage to people who did have access. While we all do live in a global reality, how big of an issues is this? Is travelling to competitions at other continents that common? Some stats on this would be nice, as this seems to be the main issue?
For instance, how many europeans attended NAC the past five years and vice versa? or SAC/NAC for that matter? Or other similar, larger events?
I'm curious of the above, because beyond that, it's hard to get past the "If I can't have it, noone can"-vibe of this thread. Which I guess is somewhat understandable, but not all that productive in terms of reviving the game..
> Tendoncutter wrote:
> I'm not quite sure what we are actually complaining about here?
> ...
> With regards to fairness, it has been mentioned that people without access to the Anthonlogy set, would be at a disadvantage to people who did have access.
>
This. This is the thing that is being complained about.
> Tendoncutter wrote:
> ...
> While we all do live in a global reality, how big of an issues is this?
>
Well, it kind of depends. Had they been merely reprinting a few Blood Dolls in a charming new color, all would be well.
Had they been printing "Win Game" cards, that would utterly ruin the game as a matter of play balance. See, that's the really novel twist with respect to CCGs: you actually *CAN* ruin a CCG - even one that hasn't had new cards in years - just by printing a few new legal cards. If they're the wrong cards.
Granted, it does not look like the anthology set has any "win game" cards, although there are reprints of insanely expensive cards, I note. My personal bone of contention isn't the high powered super-rare reprints, although I think these are definitely a bad thing to be handing out in this extremely limited way, too. Personally, I mind the new cards, what are effectively super rare promo cards. I've long believed promo cards that are too narrowly distributed are bad things and I've long appreciated that VtES never did this. Until now.
> Tendoncutter wrote:
> Is travelling to competitions at other continents that common?
>
Well, no. And that's precisely the problem. If you don't expect people on other continents to travel to the one place in the world the promos are being given out, how can such people ever get them - except by paying huge prices on the secondary market?
> Tendoncutter wrote:
> I'm curious of the above, because beyond that, it's hard to get past the "If I can't have it, noone can"-vibe of this thread.
>
Don't get past it. That actually IS the point! You sound like you've gotten stuck on the idea of that a dog-in-the-manger is a bad thing. But I'm saying, having starving dogs in mangers is actually the precise thing that kills a CCG. So if you hear some growling, don't blame the dogs. Blame the folks who forgot to feed them.
Fred
> fredsct wrote:
>
> > Tendoncutter wrote:
> > I'm not quite sure what we are actually complaining about here?
> > ...
> > With regards to fairness, it has been mentioned that people without access to the Anthonlogy set, would be at a disadvantage to people who did have access.
> >
> This. This is the thing that is being complained about.
>
Are you aware that printed proxies are legal? In other words, everybody has access to every card ever printed. This sort of undercuts your entire argument.
That's definitely understood. But the whole argument that people who get their hands on this set will have a competitive advantage or financial advantage (by reselling the cards) is just plain nonsense. Proxies are legal. One can compete in a tournament with a competitive deck at relatively minimal cost if so inclined.
If you want to argue that the event organizers should not try to drum up attendance by making the set exclusively available to attendees, by all means, argue that point. That's the only argument I've heard so far that makes any sense.
@ Fred
It's unfortunate that you left out the majority of my post, as you genuinely seem like you found the decision to test a print at a "local" tournament surprising. Your thoughts on this would have been welcome.
The reason I asked for stats regarding cross-continent playing was because competitive edge was used as an argument against the set(by you..), which would be a fair point, if the numbers supported the issue. That you strategically snipped out parts of my post in an attempt to warp it to your cause, doesn't really change the question.
It does, however, illustrate that your point about comptetitve advantage was disingenuous, going by the reasons listed.
But I get it. You want it, simply because it exists(or will) and believe not getting it will tank a game that has been in torpor(at least from a production POV) for almost 7 years, because everyone thinks like you.
But you seem to disregard both the circumstances, change of IP, future possibilities(at least the positives) and how & why we got here, in the proces of getting your point across. While accusing the people who put voluntary time and energy into keeping the game afloat, of not having the best interests of the game and players in mind.
Kinda hard to fault people for pointing out the unproductive nature and lack of perspective in your input.
For those Canadian / USA players who didn't get to go to Berlin and are aching to get their hands on the Anthology, I have a few extra ones and I am more than willing to spread the joy around and part with them for a very reasonable price.
My only condition is for you to abide by a gentlemen's agreement that they'll be for your personal or playgroup's "need" and not resold for profit on EBay (because I could do that myself but that's not the point).
contact me at c_chenard[at]hotmail[dot]com