Two levels of the game

I'm sorry about spam of posts in broken english but somehow I got stream of ideas and need to write them so they stop clogging my head I think one point, which is lost in many discussions of the game, is that VtES, as played by most partisipants of this forum (and players of the top events) greatly differs from VtES, which is played by new and casual players. But, unfortunately, the only way to get players into "top" game is by "upgrading" new/casual players, who like their game and got enough zeal to spend time and money to improve. So when somebody is saying something like "the game is fine", usually having in mind the "top" one, he may be right in general, but he misses the point. As we can't, as like in MTG, to separate casual and competitive players, as usually there are both types present at any table, than all our decisions about the game has to have in consern both thouse groups. And the second group, as i see, is mostly ignored by now. NC Russia

And ? What's your point ? I have always enjoyed my Jyhad/VtES games because of that... A meeting of different players from everywhere and with varying playing levels. Some players seem to risk their own life with every pool they lose or vp they win, some are playing crappy decks but are funny fellows, some simply want to be 1st world ranked... And we still play the same game ! We don't even need a publisher !!! Lol (Even if a good one would be a nice news) Pentex Board of Directors Prince of Oye Plage Alastor Grand Nord

> Vlad wrote: > And ? What's your point ? > My point for a long time is that VtES is by now is very bad as a casual game, so flaw of new players is small, so the playerbase is shrinking. For example at Genova I got two games sitting next to combat weenie, not influensing vampires and just discurding cards. The was some intresting table politics going on so the games was fun for me, but for most new players even one such game will be their last. And we know, that weenies is not a problem for the game at high level - there are countless ways to counter them if you know what you are doing, but on the low level they are a problem, so it will still be beneficial for the game to limit them somehow. And obviously weenies are just one example of countless other such things in VtES, from some individual cards to just size of the cardpool, or rules bloat or other things. NC Russia

We can do whatever we want for the game and the casual crowd won't notice it since vast majority of them probably won't visit here and see any changes we made to the game (for them). They play the game the way they want with their mates and the tournament scene won't effect their style of play one way or another. So why even consider starting tweaking the game to cater to them, and, mot likely, the only effect would be to alienate the current "serious" player base? Finnish Politics!

> Lönkka wrote: > We can do whatever we want for the game and the casual crowd won't notice it since vast majority of them probably won't visit here. > Maybe it's different in "big VtES nations", but here and, as I understand, in many other places, there is no separate "casual crowd". We got like 25+/- players in the comunity, from which i think 4 are semi-competiteve (as I've seen at EC we have a long way before us to became a good players ) and everybody else are casuals/new. And so at each table at weakly games or even tournament we got players from "both worlds", and we can feel their suffering. B) NC Russia

I think that can be said about almost every aspect of our lives where skill matters. Professionalls will have easy way against amatours. You can organize "amatours only" events (using f.e. ranking points , if you have too many you can't play in the event) but I think current "fresh players" base is not big enough for it to make sense. From the card design point of view, casual play is treated very seriously. Most new cards (pdf sets) are created more for casual players than having tournament scene in mind.

> alek wrote: > I think that can be said about almost every aspect of our lives where skill matters. Professionalls will have easy way against amatours. > You missed the point. I'm not saying that it's bad that better players are winning, obvously it is the whole idea of playing such game as VtES. I'm saying, that there are aspects in the game which are not fun for the casual guys and for a game not to die we have to find a way to minimize them even if they are not a problem for "professionals". > alek wrote: > From the card design point of view, casual play is treated very seriously. Most new cards (pdf sets) are created more for casual players than having tournament scene in mind. > Yea. New sets, by the way, are good in this regard, so we got enough desigh ability to fix mistakes made by earlier sets. Why not to do it? NC Russia

> elotar wrote: > > > alek wrote: > > I think that can be said about almost every aspect of our lives where skill matters. Professionalls will have easy way against amatours. > > > You missed the point. I'm not saying that it's bad that better players are winning, obvously it is the whole idea of playing such game as VtES. I'm saying, that there are aspects in the game which are not fun for the casual guys and for a game not to die we have to find a way to minimize them even if they are not a problem for "professionals". > I can't agree with you for two reasons : my 9 & 11 kids, who don't speak English and saw me playing once a year at VtES. My daughter asked to be taught how to play and last year (for her firts 5 player games) she got into the final and qualified for the French National Championship ! At 11 !!! And now my son will play at the same annual tournament at 10 y.o. So if my kids can play with, let's say Bram Van Stappen, Mehdi Mazni and their friends why should we simplify the game ??? Pentex Board of Directors Prince of Oye Plage Alastor Grand Nord

> Vlad wrote: > So if my kids can play with, let's say Bram Van Stappen, Mehdi Mazni and their friends why should we simplify the game ??? > Great kids you have, as I see. Congrats. Unfortinately, even if you'll try at your best ability, you can't "make" enougth players to fill for all leaving the game all around the world, and other, as I see, got no such luck. So me have to invent some other ways to grow playerbase NC Russia

My suggestion for anyone reprinting this game (and for the VEKN) is to consider two formats: 1) one that allows only reprinted cards, ie where producers/VEKN can choose not to include certain cards that are too complex or too powerful. This format would play out more like a precon/casual game. 2) The other format remains as VTES is today, for more advanced players. All cards allowed (well, except for the banned list). What do you think about this? "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

I can see an argument for V:TES segregating player skill more than various other CCGs. Clearly, not as much as, say, Magic does. That can come from complexity of rules, challenges with deckbuilding that seem to be much greater than in other games due in some significant part to no card limits, too many people trying to play the game as a two-player or three-player experience (I caused my predator to lose, hurrah!!), and whatever. As evidence of the frustrations of casual play, I've played under house rules many, many times. Then, there's group biases. One group would have everyone on the table try to annihilate anyone who played a vote deck, for instance. On the other hand, I really enjoy the game, still,, after 20 years of playing. I prefer casual play, though I like tournaments existing to provide some structure for the player base. I may enjoy casual play because I know the game well and find deckbuilding easy and can adjust to better strategies and varying table dynamics. On the third hand, I've played with people that just aren't fun to play with because they never learn, always play the same decks, don't really grasp how to win just how to do one thing and cause someone else to win. CCGs are hard. V:TES might be more complex, but I've played with such people in a number of different CCGs. Some people are just better suited to some other activity, whether a different CCG (perhaps a two-player), a board game, poker, street fighting, whatever. I'm not really into doing things I'm bad at. So, I like to learn, even if it's to just rise to the level of mediocrity. I expect that in others, but it doesn't always exist. When that desire to get better exists, I think it's more about teaching. When it doesn't, I don't know what you do. Traveller Card Game

> Ashur wrote: > My suggestion for anyone reprinting this game (and for the VEKN) is to consider two formats: > It will not fly - not only cards are a problem, but rules bloat also, so the new version will not be comparable with the old one from he beginning. Then there is a marketing problem - you can't hope to succesfully sell product which is just some introduction to out of print game. Then there are tournaments which, obviously will be in new format. Even in MTG with their numbers of players vintage tournaments are very rare, no way nishe game publisher will got resourses be support it. So as a result most players will just move to new game. See new edition of GoT LCG for example. NC Russia

> elotar wrote: > > > Ashur wrote: > > My suggestion for anyone reprinting this game (and for the VEKN) is to consider two formats: > > > It will not fly - not only cards are a problem, but rules bloat also, so the new version will not be comparable with the old one from he beginning. Then there is a marketing problem - you can't hope to succesfully sell product which is just some introduction to out of print game. > > Then there are tournaments which, obviously will be in new format. Even in MTG with their numbers of players vintage tournaments are very rare, no way nishe game publisher will got resourses be support it. > > So as a result most players will just move to new game. See new edition of GoT LCG for example. > I´m getting a bit tired of your argumentation elotar. Or rather your lack of argumentation. Why are rules bloat a problem in a format (format 1) that is restricted to less cards? Wouldn´t rules bloat be MUCH LESS of a problem in such a format? (Ie, what I desired with the idea) And why would the game be marketed (or percieved) as a " introduction to out of print game"?! More likely the new format (format 1) would be the main tournament format, and the old format with just be casual or a occasional tournament format (let´s say a side event format). I have no idea of GoT LCG. I´ve played the first version, and that was just totally random bullshit in my book. VTES is a great game, so why not have some faith in it instead of just writing totally random rants? "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Ashur wrote: > I´m getting a bit tired > it feels, because you are failing to read my arguments. > Ashur wrote: > Why are rules bloat a problem in a format (format 1) that is restricted to less cards? > Rules bloat is a problem for VtES. So when you introduce new edition with some rules removed, like imbued, events, life of allies ets., then you'll got non comparable games on the rules level. You can work around it, obviously, but most players of the new game with not bother with it. > Ashur wrote: > More likely the new format (format 1) would be the main tournament format, and the old format with just be casual or a occasional tournament format (let´s say a side event format). > And then the old format will be dropped and the game, as we like it, dies. > Ashur wrote: > I have no idea of GoT LCG. > It's recurring problem out there - we got 20+ years of industry knowledge, but most partisipants know nothing about it, and don't want to hear when somebody trying to tell them. NC Russia

> elotar wrote: > Rules bloat is a problem for VtES. So when you introduce new edition with some rules removed, like imbued, events, life of allies ets., then you'll got non comparable games on the rules level. You can work around it, obviously, but most players of the new game with not bother with it. > So what? Let those new players play the rules-lighter game/format then. What´s the problem with that? > elotar wrote: > And then the old format will be dropped and the game, as we like it, dies. > Well, it seem´s that "as we like it" is mostly "as elotar likes it". I argument for saving the game IN SOME FORM. What I suppose (the two formats I mention above) is to save the game in some form, ie a great tournament/entry level and a more casual/advanced level. Saying "it won´t fly" is just strange. It will largly depend on what profit margin the producer is after, and profit margin is not everything, at least not for White Wolf. I think the "format 1" can grow the player base, meanwhile allowing oldtimers to continue playing the "classic format" and getting some new cards for it once in a while. Commander for MtG (a format allowing almost all Mtg cards) is growing LIKE HELL, I guess you might have noticed that, being so into the industry and all? "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Ashur wrote: > I argument for saving the game IN SOME FORM. What I suppose (the two formats I mention above) is to save the game in some form, ie a great tournament/entry level and a more casual/advanced level. > I think that core mechanics of VtES is great, but there are many great games out there. You can play mtg multiplayer with predator-prey relationships and it works just fine. 20 years of history and depth of many sets is what making VtES unique. And so I want the game to be "saved" in this form (obviously as much, as it's possible - no way for imbueds to be saved). If you think that it will be fine to reboot the game with several hundred cards and noncomparable rules, than we got no room for argument. Yea, for a publisher it will be fine, and the players will be there. I would just say, that your hope, that there will be "second format" for a long time is futile - number of players for VtES are not enougth to support several formats. PS: Do you know anything about MTG comander? It allows 1 copy of each card in 100 card deck. It is kind of as far from normal mtg as it's possible. I don't want VtES to transform into something like it. NC Russia

I'm so with Ashur here. As well as growing even more tired than usually to elotar's whining... (apologies for bluntess!) Finnish Politics!

> elotar wrote: > If you think that it will be fine to reboot the game with several hundred cards and noncomparable rules, than we got no room for argument. Yea, for a publisher it will be fine, and the players will be there. > I propose the rules to be pretty much as is. It is the selection of cards for the reprint that would define the format, not rules changes. > elotar wrote: > I would just say, that your hope, that there will be "second format" for a long time is futile - number of players for VtES are not enougth to support several formats. > Why? Pretty much everybody I talk to that have played VTES recognize it´s qualities. As you have stated several times, it is the cheer amout of cards to learn (and buy) that scares off most. In my experience. > elotar wrote: > PS: Do you know anything about MTG comander? It allows 1 copy of each card in 100 card deck. It is kind of as far from normal mtg as it's possible. I don't want VtES to transform into something like it. > Yes, I know quite alot about Commander. I said "a format allowing almost all Mtg cards" with the banlist in mind (currently 34 cards out of 16 000+ cards!). I did not say anything about the number of each card allowed in a deck. Do you misunderstand me because you want to? "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Lönkka wrote: > I'm so with Ashur here. > > As well as growing even more tired than usually to elotar's whining... (apologies for bluntess!) > I am with both of you too... As I already said my two kids (9 and 11) know how to play the game as it is now. And my daughter even told me when Inexlained about those topics "But with all those changes, that won't be VtES any more !!!" Pentex Board of Directors Prince of Oye Plage Alastor Grand Nord

> Vlad wrote: > I am with both of you too... > As I already said my two kids (9 and 11) know how to play the game as it is now. > There are three of you + your two kids - if nobody from your group will drop the game then you'll got a full table! Located in different countries, as I understand. Lol. NC Russia

> Ashur wrote: > I propose the rules to be pretty much as is. > Rules as it is are totally unacceptable for any commercial product. Have you seen rules questions subforum? There are at the time 1268 topics with 9679 replies and new ones are still coming. And that is for a game "in torpor", when there are few new cards and 10+ years of rules clarifications by LSJ at newsgroup. At EC, where there was experienced players with established decks, we got several situations, where the game has to be stopped while counsil of judges desides on the rulings of such basic things as interaction of couple of cards. > Ashur wrote: > As you have stated several times, it is the cheer amout of cards to learn (and buy) that scares off most. In my experience. > Why do you think that your experience is a universal one? Actually you should think the opposite, because, as I understand, there are no other places in the world with the VtES comunity resembling what do you have in Scandinavia. > elotar wrote: > a format allowing almost all Mtg cards" with the banlist in mind (currently 34 cards out of 16 000+ cards!). I did not say anything about the number of each card allowed in a deck. Do you misunderstand me because you want to? > I understood you, I think you misunderstood me. The format, allowing all cards with the limit of 1 copy of each with an exactly 120 cards in a library and 20 cards in a crypt ets (VtES analogue of MTG Commander) for me got nothing to do with VtES even if there will be the same cards and same gameplay rules. So it has nothing to do here in the discussion about future of VtES. NC Russia

> elotar wrote: > Have you seen rules questions subforum? There are at the time 1268 topics with 9679 replies and new ones are still coming. > Of which 75 % are totally stupid, clarifying things that are totally obvious to any thinking person. > elotar wrote: > At EC, where there was experienced players with established decks, we got several situations, where the game has to be stopped while counsil of judges desides on the rulings of such basic things as interaction of couple of cards. > Shit happens. No serious trouble is it? > elotar wrote: > Why do you think that your experience is a universal one? > I don´t! But you seem to. Why? > elotar wrote: > I understood you, I think you misunderstood me. The format, allowing all cards with the limit of 1 copy of each with an exactly 120 cards in a library and 20 cards in a crypt ets (VtES analogue of MTG Commander) for me got nothing to do with VtES even if there will be the same cards and same gameplay rules. So it has nothing to do here in the discussion about future of VtES. > So, you say that it´s a problem that there are too many cards to learn, but it works for Commander because it´s a 1-card limit format? That doesn´t make sense to me. Do you mean thats because Commander is a casual format? Still don´t get it. Please explain. Somehow I get the feeling you want VTES to be MtG, something that attracts children and are played in pro tours? It´s not, but it´s still a game that can be played competitively, and it can grow if printed again, in some form. And just as VTES attracted lots of VTM fans back in the 90´s, a new launch of the the game can attract new and old VTM fans when VTM 5th Edition is released next year, together with computer games and other WoD products later. I hope you can understand this. It´s a strong IP, and VTES is a great game. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Ashur wrote: > > > elotar wrote: > > Have you seen rules questions subforum? There are at the time 1268 topics with 9679 replies and new ones are still coming. > > > Of which 75 % are totally stupid, clarifying things that are totally obvious to any thinking person. > Please, provide some basis on which you now called authors of 951 questions (hundred+ fellow players) stupid (unthinking persons?) or withdraw this accusation. Than we can continue discussion. I'm started to be a little bit tired too. NC Russia

From my experience, they are very few new questions, most of the questions could be answered by a simple search on the forum or the newsgroups. That is to say that the sheer number of posts in the rule section isn't directly related to the complexity of the rules. Mtg has far more complex rules for instance, that doesn't prevent new players from playing it. Now, we all know that the game is complex, and the rule team is working on it (updated card texts, ruling database and other projects in the pipe) Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > Mtg has far more complex rules for instance, that doesn't prevent new players from playing it. > The name of the topic is "Two levels of the game" Yea there are crap load of special rules in mtg, but new player will not meet them for a while (for some, like never). And there are countless of ways of introducing them gradually. In VtES new player will meet everything at once, topped then with much more complicated and nuanesed gameplay. > Ankha wrote: > Now, we all know that the game is complex, and the rule team is working on it (updated card texts, ruling database and other projects in the pipe) > You are doing great work, obviously. But VtES is full of things wich can not be saved by just making wording clear. NC Russia

> elotar wrote: > > > Vlad wrote: > > I am with both of you too... > > As I already said my two kids (9 and 11) know how to play the game as it is now. > > > There are three of you + your two kids - if nobody from your group will drop the game then you'll got a full table! Located in different countries, as I understand. Lol. > So now you try (Bad) joking to dismiss our arguments ? Ok then I won't answer to you anymore... Have a good day and enjoy VtES as you like it... But then I suggest you resign as a CN and create your own Russian House Rules to be perfectly happy with yourself... Pentex Board of Directors Prince of Oye Plage Alastor Grand Nord

> Vlad wrote: > ... joking to dismiss our arguments ? > Arguments? What arguments? Haven't seen any from you. > Vlad wrote: > But then I suggest you resign as a CN... > I would gladly resign, CN is kind of bad administrative work without any compensation and benefits. But if I do it then VtES in Russia will just die. NC Russia

> elotar wrote: > > > Vlad wrote: > > ... joking to dismiss our arguments ? > > > Arguments? What arguments? Haven't seen any from you. > ( > First I said our not my... But then I'll tell you again : WHY CHANGE A GAME (SIMPLIFY RULES AND BAN CARDS) IF 10 YEARS OLD NON NATIVE ENGLISH SPEAKING KIDS ARE ABLE TO UNDERSTAND AND PLAY IT CORRECTLY ENOUGH TO ENJOY IT (EVEN WITH FOREIGNERS) AND TO QUALIFY AND / OR GET TO THE FINAL ROUND ??? Pentex Board of Directors Prince of Oye Plage Alastor Grand Nord

> Vlad wrote: > But then I'll tell you again : > And I tell you again - your two kids maybe is a world for you, but not for anybody else. It it's totally not a universal situation, exactly opposite of universal I would say. And the universal situation is that new players are outnumbered by retiring ones and play groups are disappearing all around the world. And all of this just because community wants to defend pile of stupid crap, which got no real influence on gamepay and just complicates it for the complication sake. NC Russia

Complexity issue is a potential problem if VTES is going to come back to print. As for now, most important reason for very small number of new players is game being out of print, no new cards and huge problems with getting the old ones.

I think, you missed part of this discussion, which spreads for several threads now > alek wrote: > no new cards and huge problems with getting the old ones. > By the way. I don't know from where are you, but why you don't use proxies? I'm really curious, because we are going to have tournament at december and, even while most of the players got very serious problems with obtaining cards, idea with allowing proxies was still not popular. NC Russia

> elotar wrote: > I think, you missed part of this discussion, which spreads for several threads now > > > alek wrote: > > no new cards and huge problems with getting the old ones. > > > By the way. I don't know from where are you, but why you don't use proxies? > > I'm really curious, because we are going to have tournament at december and, even while most of the players got very serious problems with obtaining cards, idea with allowing proxies was still not popular. > Where was this idea unpopular? Yes, there are SOME people that do not agree with the use of proxies, but IMHO they are a minority. What most of old players want (at least in France) is that there are more new players. I do not consider myself an "old" player since I have been playing the game only since 2010-2011 (the game was already out of print). I have a question: If the game has so many problems and there are so many barriers to atract new players, how can you explain the number of tournaments that take place in Brazil where they have REAL problems to get the printed cards? I would say that despite of the issues the game might have (card availability, learning curve etc.) they might be doing something very well and in the rest of the world we might be doing something very wrong. Maybe we should learn a little bit of them, instead of making VTES look like Pokemon.

> cordovader wrote: > I have a question: > > If the game has so many problems and there are so many barriers to atract new players, how can you explain the number of tournaments that take place in Brazil where they have REAL problems to get the printed cards? > > I would say that despite of the issues the game might have (card availability, learning curve etc.) they might be doing something very well and in the rest of the world we might be doing something very wrong. > > Maybe we should learn a little bit of them, instead of making VTES look like Pokemon. > That's a very good point, and I think that Ginés, the new chairman, has some announcement about it Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> elotar wrote: > I'm really curious, because we are going to have tournament at december and, even while most of the players got very serious problems with obtaining cards, idea with allowing proxies was still not popular. > I might remember wrong but I do seem to recall you being very vocal about allowing proxies some years ago when you made your first appearance in this forum. The reasoning, IIRC, was that "local players can't access enough Villeins, we must allow proxies." Now the proxies are allowed and they are still not happy... :/ Finnish Politics!

> Ankha wrote: > > > cordovader wrote: > > I have a question: > > > > If the game has so many problems and there are so many barriers to atract new players, how can you explain the number of tournaments that take place in Brazil where they have REAL problems to get the printed cards? > > > > I would say that despite of the issues the game might have (card availability, learning curve etc.) they might be doing something very well and in the rest of the world we might be doing something very wrong. > > > > Maybe we should learn a little bit of them, instead of making VTES look like Pokemon. > > > That's a very good point, and I think that Ginés, the new chairman, has some announcement about it > Gines !!! Gines !!! A happy announcement please !!! Pentex Board of Directors Prince of Oye Plage Alastor Grand Nord

> cordovader wrote: > how can you explain the number of tournaments that take place in Brazil where they have REAL problems to get the printed cards? > Made some research. Looks not so bright: Brasilian NC 2015 - 43 players Brasilian NC 2016 - 31 players SAC 2015: last chance 37 championship - 35 side event(?) - 21 SAC 2016: last chance - 16 championship 15 Yea, they got several active playgroups wich organize tournaments very often. But it looks like it's the same 10-15 players each time. They just started later, so initial enthusiasm still holds (not everywhere, thou - as I understand playgroup in Rio is already in torpor), other places also struggling to get 10 people e t.s. NC Russia

> Ankha wrote: > > > cordovader wrote: > > I have a question: > > > > If the game has so many problems and there are so many barriers to atract new players, how can you explain the number of tournaments that take place in Brazil where they have REAL problems to get the printed cards? > > > > I would say that despite of the issues the game might have (card availability, learning curve etc.) they might be doing something very well and in the rest of the world we might be doing something very wrong. > > > > Maybe we should learn a little bit of them, instead of making VTES look like Pokemon. > > > That's a very good point, and I think that Ginés, the new chairman, has some announcement about it > www.vekn.net/forum/generic-v-tes-discussion/75390-two-levels-of-the-game/79344 NC Russia

> elotar wrote: > > > cordovader wrote: > > how can you explain the number of tournaments that take place in Brazil where they have REAL problems to get the printed cards? > > > Made some research. Looks not so bright: > > Brasilian NC 2015 - 43 players > Brasilian NC 2016 - 31 players > > SAC 2015: > last chance 37 > championship - 35 > side event(?) - 21 > > SAC 2016: > last chance - 16 > championship 15 > > Yea, they got several active playgroups wich organize tournaments very often. But it looks like it's the same 10-15 players each time. They just started later, so initial enthusiasm still holds (not everywhere, thou - as I understand playgroup in Rio is already in torpor), other places also struggling to get 10 people e t.s. > You should maybe candidate for chairman yourself. You seem to have answers for all questions...

> elotar wrote: > In VtES new player will meet everything at once, topped then with much more complicated and nuanesed gameplay. > I proposed a solution for this, introducing two formats for the game instead of one, but you sure teared that idea into shreds. I have no idea what you´re after really, except whining. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Lönkka wrote: > > I might remember wrong but I do seem to recall you being very vocal about allowing proxies some years ago when you made your first appearance in this forum. The reasoning, IIRC, was that "local players can't access enough Villeins, we must allow proxies." > You remembering everything right - I was totally for allowing proxies because, especially at original text of villein, it was the right one. It still it's, it's just a little late. By now players kind of get used to play with bad decks, some gentlemen agreement of "competitive players" not to bring power also helps. (You can check my NC deck for the lolz). So most of players don't want to bother. But i think those agreement is void now, so they'll ask for proxies eventually NC Russia

> elotar wrote: > And I tell you again - your two kids maybe is a world for you, but not for anybody else. It it's totally not a universal situation, exactly opposite of universal I would say. > What kind of data do you expect elotar, except anecdotal? Should I demand ID from players? We hade a 12 year old player in the Swedish Nationals this year, who played in english and got victory points. But that´s just another totally unbelievable anecdote, right? "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Ashur wrote: > What kind of data do you expect elotar... > I think we are still here > elotar wrote: > > > Ashur wrote: > > > > > elotar wrote: > > > Have you seen rules questions subforum? There are at the time 1268 topics with 9679 replies and new ones are still coming. > > > > > Of which 75 % are totally stupid, clarifying things that are totally obvious to any thinking person. > > > Please, provide some basis on which you now called authors of 951 questions (hundred+ fellow players) stupid (unthinking persons?) or withdraw this accusation. > NC Russia

> elotar wrote: > I think we are still here > I don´t understand what you are talking about. I ask you simple questions and instead of answering you just cut-paste your same old stuff which I don´t agree with? YES, I say the absolute majority of the rules questions are stupid. How do you mean I should "proof" this, my opinion? "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> elotar wrote: > I think, you missed part of this discussion, which spreads for several threads now > > > alek wrote: > > no new cards and huge problems with getting the old ones. > > > By the way. I don't know from where are you, but why you don't use proxies? > > I'm really curious, because we are going to have tournament at december and, even while most of the players got very serious problems with obtaining cards, idea with allowing proxies was still not popular. > I'm from Poland. We are allowing proxies in tournaments and some players are using them from time to time. Still players want to play with profesionally printed real cards. Nowadays cardgames and board games have really good quality and it's hard to convince someone to play with self printed piece of papers.

> alek wrote: > I'm from Poland. We are allowing proxies in tournaments and some players are using them from time to time. Still players want to play with profesionally printed real cards. Nowadays cardgames and board games have really good quality and it's hard to convince someone to play with self printed piece of papers. > Yes, we also use proxies all the time, but especially if you want to attract new players, there has to be a goodlooking buyable product. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Ashur wrote: > > > elotar wrote: > > I think we are still here > > > I say the absolute majority of the rules questions are stupid. How do you mean I should "proof" this, my opinion? > No, you've said this: > Ashur wrote: > Of which 75 % are totally stupid, clarifying things that are totally obvious to any thinking person. > So, for a second time, I'm asking you to explain, how have you get this number. I don't know, what are you doing outside of VtES, but I think in most activities it's kind of obvious, that if you are making some statements, which may be found controversal or even offensive, than you need to have something to back it up. NC Russia

> elotar wrote: > So, for a second time, I'm asking you to explain, how have you get this number. > It´s an approximation. Does it matter if I say 50, 63 or 75 percent, if it´s an appoximation based on my opinion? If you feel the rules questions are good and called for based on your knowledge, fine for you. Also: I have no problems playing a game with the occasional rules question, it´s part of the charm with VTES. If I didn´t like it, I would not play it, believe me. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Ashur wrote: > Does it matter if I say 50, 63 or 75 percent, if it´s an appoximation based on my opinion? > So you approximaion is based on your opinion. And you see no difference between 50 and 75%. Legit. NC Russia

It's very easy to make restricted cards/ machanics pool events basing of expansions, f.e. only 3rd edtion and Keepers of Tradition cards allowed.

> alek wrote: > It's very easy to make restricted cards/ machanics pool events basing of expansions, f.e. only 3rd edtion and Keepers of Tradition cards allowed. > Have you organized any? NC Russia

> elotar wrote: > > > alek wrote: > > It's very easy to make restricted cards/ machanics pool events basing of expansions, f.e. only 3rd edtion and Keepers of Tradition cards allowed. > > > Have you organized any? > No. I don't really feel that there is a need for such simplified format. Simply put, right now most players are veterans and don't need it and there is not enough new players to justify it. But you've asked for ideas so here it is. Still there may be some playgroups that could use it.

> alek wrote: > > > elotar wrote: > > > > > alek wrote: > > > It's very easy to make restricted cards/ machanics pool events basing of expansions, f.e. only 3rd edtion and Keepers of Tradition cards allowed. > > > > > > > > Have you organized any? > > > No. > Why do you think it's easy, then? NC Russia

> elotar wrote: > So you approximaion is based on your opinion. And you see no difference between 50 and 75%. Legit. > Not really. Both are a lot. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> elotar wrote: > Why do you think it's easy, then? > Maybe because it works in MTG and other card games? I certainly don´t think VTES players are less skilled in keeping order on whats allowed in a deck than other card game players. (Although I don´t think this is a good idea, mainly because most playworthy cards are actually already reprinted in late sets. It doesn´t make much difference if for example Beyond Reproach or Arcanum Investigator wouldn´t be allowed in a new format.) "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Ashur wrote: > > > elotar wrote: > > Why do you think it's easy, then? > > > Maybe because it works in MTG and other card games? I certainly don´t think VTES players are less skilled in keeping order on whats allowed in a deck than other card game players. (Although I don´t think this is a good idea, mainly because most playworthy cards are actually already reprinted in late sets. It doesn´t make much difference if for example Beyond Reproach or Arcanum Investigator wouldn´t be allowed in a new format.) > It doesn't mean it would work for V:TES as the sets (even the "core" sets such as KOT and 3rd) aren't self-sufficient to build interesting decks (there are plenty of "core" cards missing) Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > > > cordovader wrote: > > I have a question: > > > > If the game has so many problems and there are so many barriers to atract new players, how can you explain the number of tournaments that take place in Brazil where they have REAL problems to get the printed cards? > > > > I would say that despite of the issues the game might have (card availability, learning curve etc.) they might be doing something very well and in the rest of the world we might be doing something very wrong. > > > > Maybe we should learn a little bit of them, instead of making VTES look like Pokemon. > > > That's a very good point, and I think that Ginés, the new chairman, has some announcement about it > Here it is: www.vekn.net/forum/news-and-announcements/75402-new-inner-circle-vekn-board-of-directors#79470 > Ginés wrote: > Organized Play Coordinators: Orian Gissler and Desso Alastor > I'm really interested in what may come out from this association. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director