Strikes against Lucian, the Perfect

Hello, What are "strikes against Lucian" ? Is "Majesty" a strike against Lucian? (I guess "Catatonic Fear" must be.) How about dodge? Any and all strikes during a combat with Lucian? ******************** Lucian, the Perfect [Guruhi] Capacity: 11 Group: 4 Laibon: Strikes against Lucian cost an additional blood or life. A minion opposing Lucian may choose not to strike. +3 bleed.

> BogusMagus wrote: > Hello, > > What are "strikes against Lucian" ? > > Is "Majesty" a strike against Lucian? > (I guess "Catatonic Fear" must be.) > > How about dodge? > > Any and all strikes during a combat with Lucian? > > ******************** > > Lucian, the Perfect > > [Guruhi] > Capacity: 11 > Group: 4 > > Laibon: > Strikes against Lucian cost an additional blood or life. A minion opposing Lucian may choose not to strike. > +3 bleed. > "Strikes against Lucian" are strikes played in combat against Lucian. It applies to combat ends, dodge, even strikes directed to a retainer attached to Lucian. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > "Strikes against Lucian" are strikes played in combat against Lucian. It applies to combat ends, dodge, even strikes directed to a retainer attached to Lucian. > Got it. Thank you, Ankha!

> Ankha wrote: > "Strikes against Lucian" are strikes played in combat against Lucian. It applies to combat ends, dodge, even strikes directed to a retainer attached to Lucian. > Precedent on "strikes against" says no, and there is an explicit ruling on retainers attached to Lucian. The implication of the rulings is that "strikes against" Lucian must target Lucian, not merely be played in the same combat as him. [LSJ 20031118] > LSJ wrote: > > Gemini's Mirror, superior: > > > > Only usable before range is determined. When resolving each strike > > against this vampire, flip a coin. If it's tails, the strike has no > > effect on this vampire. This lasts until heads is flipped or combat > > ends. A vampire can only play one Gemini's Mirror each combat. > [...] > > Vampire A plays Gemini's Mirror at superior > [...] > > Vampire B plays superior majesty > > > > Is the majesty affected by the Gemini's Mirror? In other words, is it > > considered a strike 'against vampire A'? > > No. > > > What if Vampire B plays Dodge instead? > > Same effect either way, but still: no. > > > or a superior Stutterstep? > > The dodge dodges. The damage doesn't land (if tails). > > > or a superior canine horde targetting the magnum? > > Superior GM only protects the minion. It isn't a dodge. > > > or an inferior canine horde targetting mr. winthrop? > > OK. > > > or a superior Catatonic fear? > > and if the range was close and he played that Catatonic fear? > > Ends combat. No damage is done if tails is flipped (or > if range is long). > The difference with Catatonic Fear (superior) is that it is also a damage dealing strike - thus being made 'against' the opponent. [LSJ 20090528] > LSJ wrote: > REVERSAL: When playing a Target Retainer to make the strike be a strike against > something not-Lucian [the Perfect], Lucian [the Perfect]'s ability doesn't apply. >

So you are implying that "STRIKES AGAINST" are only card effects that threaten to damage?

> 2wayspeaker wrote: > So you are implying that "STRIKES AGAINST" are only card effects that threaten to damage? > I kinda looks like LSJ is "ruling" that "strikes against" are only strike effects that affect an opponent directly. So: Catatonic Fear @ inferior would not cost extra blood (does not affect Lucian). Catatonic Fear @ superior would cost an extra blood.(does affect Lucian). -1 Strength

> GreyB wrote: > > > 2wayspeaker wrote: > > So you are implying that "STRIKES AGAINST" are only card effects that threaten to damage? > > > I kinda looks like LSJ is "ruling" that "strikes against" are only strike effects that affect an opponent directly. > So: > Catatonic Fear @ inferior would not cost extra blood (does not affect Lucian). > Catatonic Fear @ superior would cost an extra blood.(does affect Lucian). > Correct. I forgot this ruling, and I find it unnecessarily complicated as you must guess which strikes are affected, but it's the current ruling. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > Correct. I forgot this ruling, and I find it unnecessarily complicated as you must guess which strikes are affected, but it's the current ruling. > I'm not sure why guessing is necessary. The thrust of the rulings seems pretty simple - does the strike (or a part of the strike) target the opponent? If so, then it's made "against" that opponent. This is excluding cards on the opponent, like retainers or equipment. In essence, if I played a dodge, is the thing that the strike is doing something my minion would dodge?

> 2wayspeaker wrote: > So you are implying that "STRIKES AGAINST" are only card effects that threaten to damage? > No. I'm implying that the effect needs to target the opponent, but that doesn't have to be damage. Other effects that would be included are: - Theft of Vitae (steal blood from the opponent) - Mercy for Seth: "Strike: put this card on the opposing minion" - Torpor strikes, like Coma or Rowan Ring - Meld with the Land, inferior (it untaps the opponent as well as S:CE)

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > > > Ankha wrote: > > Correct. I forgot this ruling, and I find it unnecessarily complicated as you must guess which strikes are affected, but it's the current ruling. > > > I'm not sure why guessing is necessary. The thrust of the rulings seems pretty simple - does the strike (or a part of the strike) target the opponent? If so, then it's made "against" that opponent. This is excluding cards on the opponent, like retainers or equipment. > > In essence, if I played a dodge, is the thing that the strike is doing something my minion would dodge? > What if I destroy an Eye of Hazimel with Canine Horde? Does the Gemini Mirror protect from the damage dealt to the opposing minion by the destruction of the Eye? If the opponent play Pounce, a dodge will inflict him damage during the press step. Does the dodge cost 1 more? Though cornercase, these situations may lead to a disagreement during a game. Pounce Type: Combat Requires: Flight Strike: hand strike at +2 damage, and the opposing minion cannot strike for the remainder of the round (this doesn't affect the current strike resolution). If this strike is dodged, this striking minion takes 1 damage during strike resolution and the opposing minion gets an optional press. Anyway, you're right: it's as complicated as determining whether a dodge would protect you or not. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > What if I destroy an Eye of Hazimel with Canine Horde? > The Canine Horde targeted the equipment, not the guy it's on. That that destruction has a side effect doesn't mean the strike was made against the opponent. Along similar lines, Secure Haven means that "This minion cannot be the target of other Methuselahs' actions." But it doesn't protect cards on the minion: www.vekn.net/card-rulings/card-rulings-p-to-z Only directed actions targeting the minion are restricted. Actions that target retainers, equipment, or other cards on the minion (like Atonement) are allowable, as are actions that target card not on the minion, even if such cards have "named" or "chosen" that minion (like the Rack). [TOM 19951208] [LSJ 19980302] So, for example, Arcanum Investigator is free to use its action to burn the Eye of Hazimel. That the Eye of Hazimel burning would deal damage to the bearer doesn't suddenly transmogrify this into a action targeting the bearer him or herself. > Ankha wrote: > Does the Gemini Mirror protect from the damage dealt to the opposing minion by the destruction of the Eye? > Strikes targeting equipment (only) aren't strikes "against" the opponent, per the already cited [LSJ 20031118]. > Ankha wrote: > If the opponent play Pounce, a dodge will inflict him damage during the press step. Does the dodge cost 1 more? > That seems slightly arguable, but the damage comes from a side-effect on Pounce's text, not an effect of my strike, so it would seem very much more not the case.

Doesn't Dodge protect equipments on the Minion? ************************ Dodge. A dodge strike deals no damage, but it protects the dodging minion and his possessions (cards on him) from the effects of the opposing strike. Retainers are not protected, however. ************************

> BogusMagus wrote: > Doesn't Dodge protect equipments on the Minion? > Dodge does do that, yes. One of the rulings quoted points out explicitly that Gemini's Mirror isn't a dodge, and doesn't protect cards on the minion - but the analogy is useful. If being able to dodge the strike would mean my minion wasn't affected by it, then it's - following the logic of the various precedents - "against" the minion. The cards on my minion are, for this purpose, irrelevant.