taste of vitae timing

Scenario: I have dealt lot of damage to the opposing vampire in combat and sending him to torpor. Question: Can play and gain blood with taste of vitae first, and then play superior decapitate on the opposing vampire heading to torpor? Ie. use the blood gained with taste of vitae to play decapitate. Does this timing work? From what I can see, both would be played in the same window and thus I could choose the order? Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

> Bloodartist wrote: > Scenario: I have dealt lot of damage to the opposing vampire in combat and sending him to torpor. > > Question: Can play and gain blood with taste of vitae first, and then play superior decapitate on the opposing vampire heading to torpor? Ie. use the blood gained with taste of vitae to play decapitate. Does this timing work? From what I can see, both would be played in the same window and thus I could choose the order? > Correct. Sending a vampire to torpor ends the round, making both cards playable in the same window. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > > > Bloodartist wrote: > > Scenario: I have dealt lot of damage to the opposing vampire in combat and sending him to torpor. > > > > Question: Can play and gain blood with taste of vitae first, and then play superior decapitate on the opposing vampire heading to torpor? Ie. use the blood gained with taste of vitae to play decapitate. Does this timing work? From what I can see, both would be played in the same window and thus I could choose the order? > > > Correct. Sending a vampire to torpor ends the round, making both cards playable in the same window. > Huh. The Detailed Play Summary and the rulebook seem to conflict with what you’re saying. Decapitate states “when the opposing vampire is going into torpor…burn the opposing vampire instead…” According to the rulebook, “If one or both of the combatants are no longer ready (because one has taken too much damage, for instance), then the round and the combat end immediately (no further strikes, no presses, etc.).” This would place us at Step D in the Detailed Play summary (Combat Ends; see below). Taste of Vitae is played at Step C (Round Ends). From this, and assuming that a vampire “going into torpor” is “no longer ready,” I would have thought you could not play Taste of Vitae before Decapitate. But are we not actually in Step D here? Does the round actually end before the combat ends, and this is just poorly worded in the rulebook? Or are we simultaneously in Steps C and D, and both end immediately? If this is the case, why have two steps here? From the Detailed Play Summary: C. Round Ends. [6.4.4] 1. Apply any end-of-round effects. 2. If the press step ended with "to continue", then another round begins (Go back to step A). D. Combat Ends. [6.4.7]

> TwoRazorReign wrote: > According to the rulebook, “If one or both of the combatants are no longer ready (because one has taken too much damage, for instance), then the round and the combat end immediately (no further strikes, no presses, etc.).” > If you embolden the two words beforehand, you get to "the round and the combat" end immediately - you go through "round ends" and "combat ends". Any time the combat ends, the round ends too. Decapitate doesn't limit itself to being played in "combat ends", just any time the opponent is going to torpor (which it is, you whacked it hard enough). > TwoRazorReign wrote: > Does the round actually end before the combat ends, and this is just poorly worded in the rulebook? > Well, the rulebook says that the round and the combat end, and the detailed play summary shows you that one goes before the other. > TwoRazorReign wrote: > Or are we simultaneously in Steps C and D > If they were simultaneous, they wouldn't be separate steps. > TwoRazorReign wrote: > , and both end immediately? > You go straight to round ends (and then combat ends), denying the ability to: - resolve a 'slower' strike (e.g. someone going to torpor from First Strike) - generate, declare and resolve additional strikes - play presses etc. [LSJ 20031201] > LSJ wrote: > > Are these following plays legal or not? > Assuming the semicolons denote sequencing... > > > 1) Disarm; Decapitate or Amaranth > > Yes. > > > 2) Taste of Vitae; Disarm; Decapitate or Amaranth > > Yes. > > > 3) Disarm; Decapitate or Amaranth; Taste of Vitae > > Yes. > > > 4) Disarm; Taste of Vitae; Decapitate or Amaranth > > Yes. > > > I'd say legal (not certain about the order in 4) > > because Decapitate nor Amaranth neither define > > in which phase they are playable so they are > > playable at any phase of combat where there is a legal > > target (a vampire going into torpor) and end of combat > > is by definition (as Disarm and Taste of Vitae are > > combat cards and can be played at that time) still a > > part of combat. > > Correct. > And from the same thread: > LSJ wrote: > The round has to end when combat ends. >

So it's the rulebook that's not clear. The round ends immediately, then the combat ends. Is there a reason why it's not stated like this?

> TwoRazorReign wrote: > So it's the rulebook that's not clear. > That's why we have the Detailed Play Summary to supplement the rulebook on issues of timing. The rulebook is meant to be readable by (amongst others) new players who are not intending to sit down and read a legal treatise spelling out every single timing window and glitch that might exist, overwhelming new players with infinitesimal detail in the process.

Sure. But it's a bad thing for the Detailed Play Summary and the rulebook to use language that seemingly contradict one another. Having the rulebook say "The round ends immediately, then combat ends" instead of "the round and the combat end immediately" is not creating a "legal treatise spelling out every single timing window." It's just giving more clarity on what actually happens.