Hello, I have some questions (again).
I'm aware that this was discussed a while ago.
www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/60278-sequencing-of-before-range-effects?limitstart=0
Can someone please, one more time, explain how "Before range is determined" effects work?
1) damage VS damage
1-a)
Vampire A is acting. Vampire B blocks.
Vampire A plays "Outside the Hourglass (Sup)"
Vampire B would go to torpor when he takes the damage.
Can B play "Outside the Hourglass (Sup)" ?
1-b)
I assume the answer will be the same as above with "Weather Control".
But maybe not.
"Both combatants and each of their retainers take 1 unpreventable damage *before range is determined each round*."
1-c-1)
Vampire A is acting. Vampire B blocks.
1st round.
Vampire A (a Tremere) plays "Weather Control" A.
Vampire B (a Tremere antitribu) also plays "Weather Control" B.
Both Vampires, A & B, are still ready after taking the damage, and the combat continues.
2nd round.
Vampire B (the antitribu) would go to torpor from "Weather Control" A (in play).
Would both Vampires, A & B, take damage from "Weather Control" B (in play) ?
1-c-2)
Will the answer be different if it was Vampire A (the Tremere) that would go to torpor from "Weather Control" A ?
1-d-1)
1st round.
A Tremere (acting) plays "Weather Control".
A True Brujah (blocking) does not play anything.
Both vampires are still ready after taking the damage, and the combat continues.
2nd round.
The True Brujah would go to torpor from "Weather Control" (in play).
Can the True Brujah play "Outside the Hourglass" (Sup) ?
1-d-2)
Would it be different if
the True Brujah was acting and
the Tremere was blocking?
==============
Outside the Hourglass
[Combat]
[obf] Strike: dodge.
[tem] Maneuver, or strike: dodge, with an optional maneuver.
[TEM] Only usable before range is determined. Inflict 2 damage on the opposing minion. A vampire can play only one Outside the Hourglass at superior each round.
Weather Control
[Combat]
Only usable before range is determined on the first round.
[tha] Both combatants and each of their retainers take 1 unpreventable damage before range is determined each round. A vampire may play only one Weather Control each combat.
[THA] As above, but the amount of damage inflicted increases by 1 in each subsequent round.
==============
Next questions.
(Actually, just checking for confirmations, I think.)
2) damage VS prevention
2-a-1)
Vampire A is acting. Vampire B blocks.
Vampire A (True Brujah) plays "Outside the Hourglass" (Sup) in the combat.
Vampire B can play
"Apparition"
"Armor of Vitality"
"Indomitability"
"Unflinching Persistence"
"Skin of Rock"
"Soak"
etc.
Or use his "Flak Jacket".
Correct?
(Just checking.)
2-a-2)
Vampire A (True Brujah) plays "Dawn Operation, then "Outside the Hourglass" in the combat.
Vampire B can play "Skin of Night"
Correct?
(Just checking.)
2-b)
Vampire A is acting. Vampire B blocks.
Vampire A (True Brujah) plays "Outside the Hourglass" (Sup) in the combat.
Vampire B can play
"Bear's Skin"
"Flesh of Marble"
"Horrid Form"
"Skin of the Adder"
"Sword of the Righteous"
"Typhonic Beast"
etc. and prevent damage.
Correct?
(Just checking, but I'm little confused.
I feel this might contradict other rulings.
Anyway, I will continue to next questions.)
==============
Bear's Skin
[Combat]
Only usable before range is determined. A vampire can play only one Bear's Skin each combat.
[ani] [pro] This round, this vampire gets +1 strength and can prevent 1 damage.
[ANI] [PRO] This combat, this vampire gets +1 strength and can prevent 1 damage each round.
==============
> BogusMagus wrote:
> Hello, I have some questions (again).
>
> I'm aware that this was discussed a while ago.
> www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/60278-sequencing-of-before-range-effects?limitstart=0
>
> Can someone please, one more time, explain how "Before range is determined" effects work?
>
Hi.
> BogusMagus wrote:
> 1) damage VS damage
>
> 1-a)
> Vampire A is acting. Vampire B blocks.
> Vampire A plays "Outside the Hourglass (Sup)"
> Vampire B would go to torpor when he takes the damage.
> Can B play "Outside the Hourglass (Sup)" ?
>
"would go" suggests that B attempts to play Outside the Hourglass in the prevent window. This is not possible.
If B doesn't prevent the damage and goes to torpor, then he can't play Outside the Hourglass.
If B prevents the damage, then he can play Outside the Hourglass as soon as A gives him the impulse.
> BogusMagus wrote:
> 1-b)
> I assume the answer will be the same as above with "Weather Control".
> But maybe not.
> "Both combatants and each of their retainers take 1 unpreventable damage *before range is determined each round*."
>
Weather Control creates a "pending effect" that will inflict 1 damage during the "before range" step.
A can continue to play cards, but he will be forced to apply the damage of the Weather Control before passing the impulse.
See the thread groups.google.com/d/topic/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/sNKssgt0E78/discussion
Anyway, the result is the same. If B goes to torpor when the damage of Weather Control is applied, B never has the impulse (for non-prevention cards) and can't play Outside the Hourglass or Weather ontrol.
> BogusMagus wrote:
> 1-c-1)
> Vampire A is acting. Vampire B blocks.
> 1st round.
> Vampire A (a Tremere) plays "Weather Control" A.
> Vampire B (a Tremere antitribu) also plays "Weather Control" B.
> Both Vampires, A & B, are still ready after taking the damage, and the combat continues.
> 2nd round.
> Vampire B (the antitribu) would go to torpor from "Weather Control" A (in play).
> Would both Vampires, A & B, take damage from "Weather Control" B (in play) ?
>
Yes. Even if B (or A) goes to torpor, there's still the damage from the other Weather Control to apply.
> BogusMagus wrote:
> 1-c-2)
> Will the answer be different if it was Vampire A (the Tremere) that would go to torpor from "Weather Control" A ?
>
No, see answer above.
> BogusMagus wrote:
> 1-d-1)
> 1st round.
> A Tremere (acting) plays "Weather Control".
> A True Brujah (blocking) does not play anything.
> Both vampires are still ready after taking the damage, and the combat continues.
> 2nd round.
> The True Brujah would go to torpor from "Weather Control" (in play).
> Can the True Brujah play "Outside the Hourglass" (Sup) ?
>
No, because A has the impulse and must apply the damage from the Weather Control before giving the impulse to B.
> BogusMagus wrote:
> 1-d-2)
> Would it be different if
> the True Brujah was acting and
> the Tremere was blocking?
>
Indeed, because now the True Brujah has the impulse first and can play Outside the Hourglass. The damage of the Weather Control would be applied after that.
> BogusMagus wrote:
> 2) damage VS prevention
>
> 2-a-1)
> Vampire A is acting. Vampire B blocks.
> Vampire A (True Brujah) plays "Outside the Hourglass" (Sup) in the combat.
> Vampire B can play
> "Apparition"
> "Armor of Vitality"
> "Indomitability"
> "Unflinching Persistence"
> "Skin of Rock"
> "Soak"
> etc.
> Or use his "Flak Jacket".
> Correct?
>
Correct.
> BogusMagus wrote:
> 2-a-2)
> Vampire A (True Brujah) plays "Dawn Operation, then "Outside the Hourglass" in the combat.
> Vampire B can play "Skin of Night"
> Correct?
>
Correct. groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/Itzely9s_pc/nod73eVyna4J
> BogusMagus wrote:
> 2-b)
> Vampire A is acting. Vampire B blocks.
> Vampire A (True Brujah) plays "Outside the Hourglass" (Sup) in the combat.
> Vampire B can play
> "Bear's Skin"
> "Flesh of Marble"
> "Horrid Form"
> "Skin of the Adder"
> "Sword of the Righteous"
> "Typhonic Beast"
> etc. and prevent damage.
> Correct?
>
Correct, same link as above.
Some useful quote from LSJ:
> LSJ wrote:
> > - You can play horrid form (and similar cards) before preventing/
> > healing damage from an OtH already played.
> Yes.
> groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/7b4a0293b1e288be
> groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/3cc686fc638b5ad1
> groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/cf93fbdc27e1c3fd
>
> > - You can play any (number) "only useable before range is determined"
> > cards before preventing/healing damage from an OtH already played.
> Yes.
> (same URL)
>
> > - You can play Skin of Night at inferior to change the nature of the
> > damage from an OtH already played if that damage is aggravated before
> > preventing/healing that damage.
> Yes.
>
And also:
>
> LSJ wrote:
> > > > - You can play Wolf Claws (and similar cards) before preventing/
> > > > healing damage from an OtH already played.
> >
> > > Yes.
> >
> > I'm having a bit of trouble combining this with the answer given inhttp://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/716c...
> A mistake on my part (the latter citation). The RTR is still correct.
>
(so no Wolf Claws).
> LSJ wrote:
> > Goratrix attempts to block Shalmath. Shalmath plays Domain of
> > Evernight at inferior and the block succeeds. Before range, Shalmath
> > plays Outside the Hourglass and Goratrix plays Weather Control. What
> > happens?
> Goratrix takes 2 damage from OtH.
> Goratrix and Shalmath each take 1 unpreventable damage from WC.
>
> All that damage is aggravated, thanks to DoE.
>
> Any retainers on Shalmath and Goratrix each take 1 unpreventable
> damage from WC.
>
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > BogusMagus wrote:
> > 1) damage VS damage
> >
> > 1-a)
> > Vampire A is acting. Vampire B blocks.
> > Vampire A plays "Outside the Hourglass (Sup)"
> > Vampire B would go to torpor when he takes the damage.
> > Can B play "Outside the Hourglass (Sup)" ?
> >
> "would go" suggests that B attempts to play Outside the Hourglass in the prevent window. This is not possible.
> If B doesn't prevent the damage and goes to torpor, then he can't play Outside the Hourglass.
> If B prevents the damage, then he can play Outside the Hourglass as soon as A gives him the impulse.
>
That's not true.
[RTR 2004-DEC-02]
>
> Non-existant user wrote:
> The damage resolution phase does not preclude other effects (like tapping a
> Barrens, for example). You may tap the Barrens to attempt to draw into more
> damage prevention, or play Aura Reading when Weather Control damage is
> applied (to attempt to draw Skin of Night if a Dawn Operation is in play,
> for example). You still cannot "interrupt" damage handling, however (you
> cannot burn two blood to heal and then use some effect to gain blood before
> burning another blood to heal the remaining third point of damage, for
> example).
>
So, during damage prevention, you can play any arbitrary effect you want, be that:
- tapping the Barrens
- playing Aura Reading to draw new cards, or to force the opponent to play with an open hand
- playing Skin of Night to change how you treat the damage (but not prevent it)
There is nothing, currently, to mean that you can't play Outside the Hourglass
After everyone has passed in the damage prevention window, you then move on to handling the unprevented damage (healing/wounding/burning blood to prevent destruction).
In terms of what happens when you play two competing Outside the Hourglasses, it's not been determined what happens. I went through a number of options over here in 2014 , but Pascal never actually ruled on the issue. That whole thread is quite detailed on the intricacies of before range sequencing - but it's important to read it very carefully, because there are some assertions by some people in the thread that expressly contradict the 2004 ruling on being able to play Aura Reading, or there not being a damage resolution phase in pre-range when handling damage (for some unclear reason).
One of the options - and one I would probably be quite happy with - would be a fiat ruling that you can't play effects that inflict damage during damage resolution (i.e. you can't play OtH during the opponent's OtH damage resolution, if the opponent played theirs first) - but that's not currently consistent with the 2004 ruling.
> Ankha wrote:
> Anyway, the result is the same. If B goes to torpor when the damage of Weather Control is applied, B never has the impulse (for non-prevention cards) and can't play Outside the Hourglass or Weather ontrol.
>
There isn't an "impulse for prevention cards". Anything can be used in the damage prevention window, whether damage prevention or not, assuming that the card is otherwise legally playable - but since you're still before range, other before range effects can be used.
The basic issue from 2004 as I recall (hazily) was this: do we want to make the damage prevention window exclusive to damage prevention effects? Options:
a) Yes, damage prevention only. That gets tricky, though, with things like non-preventing Skin of Night. (Or Adaptability, which actually changed damage at the time - it doesn't now.) So it has to be damage-y sort of effects, maybe? What about damage prevention + something else? A bit icky, but potentially doable.
b) Damage prevention only, plus card cycling/drawing effects, such as tapping The Barrens or playing Aura Reading. If you don't allow these to draw into damage prevention, it gets a bit weird explaining why you can't fish for damage prevention but you can fish for intercept, or that sort of thing.
b and a half) Possibly some other special exceptions? Gets ickier.
c) Allow everything.
And where we are now is c), which gets into some slightly awkward situations around the edges.
(I'll look at the rest later.)
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> >
> > > BogusMagus wrote:
> > > 1) damage VS damage
> > >
> > > 1-a)
> > > Vampire A is acting. Vampire B blocks.
> > > Vampire A plays "Outside the Hourglass (Sup)"
> > > Vampire B would go to torpor when he takes the damage.
> > > Can B play "Outside the Hourglass (Sup)" ?
> > >
> > "would go" suggests that B attempts to play Outside the Hourglass in the prevent window. This is not possible.
> > If B doesn't prevent the damage and goes to torpor, then he can't play Outside the Hourglass.
> > If B prevents the damage, then he can play Outside the Hourglass as soon as A gives him the impulse.
> >
> That's not true.
>
> [RTR 2004-DEC-02]
> >
> > Non-existant user wrote:
> > The damage resolution phase does not preclude other effects (like tapping a
> > Barrens, for example). You may tap the Barrens to attempt to draw into more
> > damage prevention, or play Aura Reading when Weather Control damage is
> > applied (to attempt to draw Skin of Night if a Dawn Operation is in play,
> > for example). You still cannot "interrupt" damage handling, however (you
> > cannot burn two blood to heal and then use some effect to gain blood before
> > burning another blood to heal the remaining third point of damage, for
> > example).
> >
> So, during damage prevention, you can play any arbitrary effect you want, be that:
>
> - tapping the Barrens
> - playing Aura Reading to draw new cards, or to force the opponent to play with an open hand
> - playing Skin of Night to change how you treat the damage (but not prevent it)
>
> There is nothing, currently, to mean that you can't play Outside the Hourglass
>
Correct, I misread the correction of the misquote of the misreversal of LSJ.
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> > Anyway, the result is the same. If B goes to torpor when the damage of Weather Control is applied, B never has the impulse (for non-prevention cards) and can't play Outside the Hourglass or Weather ontrol.
> >
> There isn't an "impulse for prevention cards".
>
Having an impulse for non-prevention cards doesn't mean there would be an impulse for prevention cards.
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
> Anything can be used in the damage prevention window, whether damage prevention or not, assuming that the card is otherwise legally playable - but since you're still before range, other before range effects can be used.
>
Indeed, per the RTR-2004.
This opens a can of worms since "before range" cards are played either accordingly to the impulse or not if you're in a damage prevention step.
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
> The basic issue from 2004 as I recall (hazily) was this: do we want to make the damage prevention window exclusive to damage prevention effects? Options:
>
> a) Yes, damage prevention only. That gets tricky, though, with things like non-preventing Skin of Night. (Or Adaptability, which actually changed damage at the time - it doesn't now.) So it has to be damage-y sort of effects, maybe? What about damage prevention + something else? A bit icky, but potentially doable.
>
> b) Damage prevention only, plus card cycling/drawing effects, such as tapping The Barrens or playing Aura Reading. If you don't allow these to draw into damage prevention, it gets a bit weird explaining why you can't fish for damage prevention but you can fish for intercept, or that sort of thing.
>
> b and a half) Possibly some other special exceptions? Gets ickier.
>
> c) Allow everything.
>
> And where we are now is c), which gets into some slightly awkward situations around the edges.
>
Talking about b), we'd be in the same situation as "as played" windows during which you can't use the Barrens.
It would make the Barrens unusable (as in "as played" windows), but Blackhorse Tanner's special could be used if you play a prevent card since it applies when you "draw a card". The condition is met.
I'm more in favor of a) that is "cards can be played if they apply". Since Skin of Night changes the nature of the damage, or since Flesh of Marble prevents part of it, they can be played.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
> This opens a can of worms since "before range" cards are played either accordingly to the impulse or not if you're in a damage prevention step.
>
The sequencing rules work exactly the same during damage resolution as elsewhere - the acting Methuselah goes first, and gets the impulse after every card play / effect use.
[LSJ 20061113]
LSJ applying sequencing to additional strike gaining, then a question about damage prevention, and a confirmation that it applies to damage prevention too.
> LSJ wrote:
> >> REVERSAL: the gaining of additional strikes is subject to 1.6.1.5 (just like
> >> the gaining of maneuvers, &c.)
> >>
> >> So if the acting minion declines, but the blocking minion then gains
> >> additionals, the acting minion can respond by gaining additionals of his own.
>
> > Does this ruling also cover damage prevention?
> >
> > Say acting minion is hit by 1(one) and declines to prevent, opposing
> > minion is hit by 1(one) and prevents that damage. Can the acting minion
> > then prevent his damage too? For example to avoid getting hit by a
> > pulled fangs/disarm etc.
>
> Yes. (Also a reversal).
>
In most situations, if only a minion of the non-acting Methuselah is taking damage, the acting Methuselah will pass the impulse. In this situation - where the damage resolution window happens pre-range - the acting Methuselah has the impulse first, as normal, but now might regularly want to play cards/use other effects with it.
In essence, what it means is roughly:
- sequencing of before range effects happens exactly normally, BUT
- once you've applied damage to a minion (e.g. playing OtH, or applying some pending Weather Control damage), you can now additionally sequence in damage prevention following the normal rules, until everyone decides the damage prevention window has closed (by passing the impulse).
This still leaves us with the situation where we don't know what happens when you apply a damage-dealing effect during damage resolution: do they/should they apply simultaneously? do they/should they apply sequentially? if combat ends, can applied-but-not-fully-handled damage disappear (seems unlikely, as discussed over in the thread I linked to earlier )? should it be impossible by fiat? etc.
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> > This opens a can of worms since "before range" cards are played either accordingly to the impulse or not if you're in a damage prevention step.
> >
> The sequencing rules work exactly the same during damage resolution as elsewhere - the acting Methuselah goes first, and gets the impulse after every card play / effect use.
>
> [LSJ 20061113]
>
> LSJ applying sequencing to additional strike gaining, then a question about damage prevention, and a confirmation that it applies to damage prevention too.
>
> > LSJ wrote:
> > >> REVERSAL: the gaining of additional strikes is subject to 1.6.1.5 (just like
> > >> the gaining of maneuvers, &c.)
> > >>
> > >> So if the acting minion declines, but the blocking minion then gains
> > >> additionals, the acting minion can respond by gaining additionals of his own.
> >
> > > Does this ruling also cover damage prevention?
> > >
> > > Say acting minion is hit by 1(one) and declines to prevent, opposing
> > > minion is hit by 1(one) and prevents that damage. Can the acting minion
> > > then prevent his damage too? For example to avoid getting hit by a
> > > pulled fangs/disarm etc.
> >
> > Yes. (Also a reversal).
> >
> In most situations, if only a minion of the non-acting Methuselah is taking damage, the acting Methuselah will pass the impulse. In this situation - where the damage resolution window happens pre-range - the acting Methuselah has the impulse first, as normal, but now might regularly want to play cards/use other effects with it.
>
This leads to this awkward situation:
A plays Outside the Hourglass.
A can't play other cards because we enter the prevention step.
-INSIDE THE PREVENTION STEP-
Since B can play Aura Reading, then the normal sequencing rule applies:
A has the impulse. A plays a Torn Signpost. A plays Increased Strength.
B has the impulse. B plays Aura Reading.
A has the impulse. A passes.
B plays Outside the Hourglass.
Two options: either this opens a new prevention step (for the damage inflicted on A), or both prevention steps merge together.
Some cards later, B and A eventually plays prevention cards.
> This still leaves us with the situation where we don't know what happens when you apply a damage-dealing effect during damage resolution: do they/should they apply simultaneously? do they/should they apply sequentially? if combat ends, can applied-but-not-fully-handled damage disappear (seems unlikely, as discussed over in the thread I linked to earlier )? should it be impossible by fiat? etc.
>
If we consider that the two prevention steps merge together, we can consider that the damage is dealt "simultaneously" and that it must be handled.
Contrary to a aggravated first strike + Carrion Crows situation where the damage of the Carrion Crows hasn't been dealt when the first strike resolves.
groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/xWPJdV1Q1w4/Bo6_h9fGCPQJ
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Sorry for the late response,
and thank you guys!
So...there is NOT a concrete ruling?
I was going to ask a few more (other) questions regarding this, but maybe I should wait till things are sorted out?
(Because I think most of my questions should be cleared if things are ruled one way or another.)
By the way, I'm not just asking these as theoretical questions.
One of our (very small) group uses Temporis decks frequently
(Previously Al-Muntaquim, currently Goratrix with Temporis).
Actually, sometime ago;
His Al-Muntaquim (acting. rush?) was in combat with my Ravnos.
The True Brujah played "Outside the Hourglass (Sup)".
The Ravnos (I) had "Illusions of the Kindred" in hand,
and wasn't sure if it was usuable.
(The group had little debate,
and it was ruled that the Ravnos would go to torpor.
I think the ruling was correct.)
My Ravnos deck sitting next to his True Brujah deck has happened a few more times.
Also, currently, I have a deck that uses "Weather Control",
although "Weather Control" versus "Outside the Hourglass" situation has not come up yet.
Well, allow me to ask a few more questions anyway.
First, follow-up questions.
> 1) damage VS damage> 1-c-2)
> Will the answer be different if it was Vampire A (the Tremere) that would go to torpor from "Weather Control" A ?
So, is there any difference between
"Outside the Hourglass (Sup)" and
"Weather Control" timings?
How about between
"Weather Control" that was just played and
"Weather Control" that is already in play from the previous round.
> 2) damage VS prevention
Assuming it is possible to play them,
damages from two (or more) cards (or sources),
do they happen in one instance, or separate timings?
An example;
Vampire A acting, blocked by Vampire B.
A plays "Dawn Operation", then "Weather Control" (1 aggravated damage to both A&B).
B plays "Outside the Hourglass (Sup)" (2 aggravated damage to A).
Can A play "Penitent Resilience" at [for] (This vampire treats aggravated damage as normal damage.)
to treat all 3 damage as normal?
Is there any difference between
"Outside the Hourglass (Sup)" and
"Weather Control"?
==============
Domain of Evernight
Type: Action Modifier
Requires: Temporis/Obfuscate
[obf] +1 stealth.
[tem] If this action is blocked, all damage done to vampires in the resulting combat is aggravated.
[TEM] Only usable when an action is successful. Usable after resolution. Untap this acting vampire. A vampire can play only one Domain of Evernight at superior each turn.
Dawn Operation
Type: Action Modifier
Requires: Fortitude
[for] If this action is blocked, all damage inflicted to vampires in the resulting combat is aggravated. Any vampire attempting to block may now choose not to block.
[FOR] As above, but vampires attempting to block cannot back out.
Penitent Resilience
Type: Action Modifier/Combat
Requires: Fortitude & Obeah
[for] [COMBAT] This vampire treats aggravated damage as normal damage. Flash Grenades have no effect on this vampire.
[for][obe] [COMBAT] As [for] above, but for the remainder of combat.
[FOR][OBE] [ACTION MODIFIER] Only usable as the action is announced. Choose a vampire. That vampire cannot block this action.
Jalan-Aajav
Clan: Gangrel antitribu (group 3)
Capacity: 9
Disciplines: CEL FOR POT PRO ani
Sabbat. Black Hand Seraph: Once each round, Jalan may burn 1 blood to treat aggravated damage as normal. He gets 1 optional press each combat.
==============
> BogusMagus wrote:
> Well, allow me to ask a few more questions anyway.
>
> First, follow-up questions.
>
> > 1) damage VS damage
>
> > 1-c-2)
> > Will the answer be different if it was Vampire A (the Tremere) that would go to torpor from "Weather Control" A ?
>
> So, is there any difference between
> "Outside the Hourglass (Sup)" and
> "Weather Control" timings?
>
Indeed. Outside the Hourglass inflicts 2 damage when its played. Weather Control creates an effect that inflicts 1 damage anytime during the "before range step" on this round and the subsequent rounds.
> BogusMagus wrote:
> How about between
> "Weather Control" that was just played and
> "Weather Control" that is already in play from the previous round.
>
They work the same.
> BogusMagus wrote:
> > 2) damage VS prevention
>
> Assuming it is possible to play them,
> damages from two (or more) cards (or sources),
> do they happen in one instance, or separate timings?
>
> An example;
> Vampire A acting, blocked by Vampire B.
> A plays "Dawn Operation", then "Weather Control" (1 aggravated damage to both A&B).
> B plays "Outside the Hourglass (Sup)" (2 aggravated damage to A).
> Can A play "Penitent Resilience" at [for] (This vampire treats aggravated damage as normal damage.)
> to treat all 3 damage as normal?
>
It depends if 1/ this play is legal and 2/ if the prevention steps are merged in that case.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Thank you.
More questions.
3) cost
If you can play any cards during damage prevention "step",
that means you pay for the cost of those before you take damage, correct?
4) combat ends
"Alpha Glint" (Superior)
"Illusions of the Kindred"
4-a)
Minion A acting, Minion B blocking.
If A uses combat ends first,
B cannot play any cards?
4-b)
If A inflicts damage to B, then
B uses combat ends.
B takes the damage, then combat ends?
5) special
Okay, these are just theoretical, because I have never seen these situations.
5-a)
"Bloodform" (Superior)
Vampire A acting, Vampire B blocking.
A inflicts damage to B,
B "Bloodform" (Superior).
Can B avoid the damage?
5-b)
"Drawing Out the Beast" VS "Amulet of Temporal Perception"
Vampire A acting, Vampire B blocking.
If A uses the Amulet, then plays "Outside the Hourglass (Sup)",
B cannot stop A by "Drawing Out the Beast",
but if it was A using "Drawing Out the Beast",
B cannot use the Amulet.
Correct?
6) draw
"Aura Reading"
So currently it's playable in the damage prevention step.
I'm just putting it here as a reminder.
7) "irrelevant" stuff
Cards that do not have any effects during this step.
"Armor of Caine's Fury"
But they enable card cycling, so they are not really irrelevant.
Currently playable in the damage prevention step?
==============
Illusions of the Kindred
Type: Combat
Requires: Chimerstry
Cost: 2 blood
Only usable before range is determined.
[chi] Combat ends. Move the bottom card of your crypt to your ready region. He or she does not contest any other minions or titles in play. The vampire has an amount of blood equal to half of his or her capacity (round down). Combat begins between the vampire and the opposing minion. Remove the crypt card from the game at the end of combat.
[CHI] As above, but the vampire has an amount of blood equal to his or her capacity.
Alpha Glint
Type: Combat
Requires: Animalism & Fortitude
Cost: 1 blood
Not usable in combat with an ally or an older vampire.
[ani][for] Strike: combat ends.
[ANI][FOR] Only usable before range is determined. Combat ends.
Living Manse
Type: Equipment
Requires: Tzimisce
Cost: 1 blood
This equipment card represents a location and does not count as an equipment card while it is in play.
The vampire with this location gets +1 bleed. He or she can burn this card before range is determined to end combat. A vampire may have only one Living Manse.
Abjure
Type: Power
Requires: Redemption
[COMBAT] Tap this imbued before range is determined to end a combat between a monster and a mortal. If the mortal is a minion other than this imbued, you may move a conviction [1 CONVICTION] to this imbued from your hand or ash heap.
Foresee
Type: Power
Requires: Vision
[COMBAT] [1 CONVICTION] Only usable before range is determined on the first round of combat resulting from a block. Look at the opposing minion's controller's hand. You may then choose to cancel combat. If you do, and this imbued was blocking, the action continues as if unblocked.
Bloodform
Type: Combat
Requires: Vicissitude
[vic] Strike: combat ends, only usable when in combat with an ally.
[VIC] Play before range is chosen. This vampire is immune to non-aggravated damage for the current round. This vampire cannot strike this round. This vampire gets an optional press, usable only to end combat.
Aura Reading
Type: Combat
Requires: Auspex
Only usable before range is chosen.
[aus] The opposing minion's controller plays with an open hand for the remainder of combat.
[AUS] You get +2 hand size for the remainder of this combat. A vampire can play only one Aura Reading at superior each combat.
Armor of Caine's Fury
Type: Combat
Requires: Valeren/Presence
Cost: 1 blood
[ pre] Prevent 1 damage.
[val] Only usable before range is determined. This vampire may prevent 1 damage from the opposing minion's strikes each round. Frenzy cards cannot be played on this vampire; cancel the effects of any Frenzy cards that have already been played on this vampire this combat.
[VAL] As [val] above, but this vampire may prevent 2 damage from the opposing minion's strikes each round.
Drawing Out the Beast
Type: Combat
Requires: Animalism
Only usable before range is determined on the first round. Frenzy.
[ani] During this combat, opposing vampire gets +1 strength, but he or she cannot use maneuvers to maneuver to long range, cannot use presses to end combat and cannot use equipment. A vampire may play only one Drawing Out the Beast each combat.
[ANI] As above, and the opposing vampire takes 1 unpreventable damage during the press step each round.
Terror Frenzy
Type: Combat
Requires: Animalism
Cost: 1 blood
Frenzy.
[ani] Only usable before range is determined on the first round. During this combat, the opposing minion cannot use maneuvers to maneuver to close range, cannot use presses to continue combat and cannot use equipment.
[ANI] Only usable before range is determined. Combat cards cost the opposing vampire an additional blood this combat. A vampire may play only one Terror Frenzy at superior each combat.
Amulet of Temporal Perception
Type: Equipment
Unique equipment.
This vampire may burn 1 blood to play a card that requires basic Temporis [tem] from your hand. This equipment can be used only once each turn.
==============
I know my preference is not relevant,
but playing "Outside the Hourglass (Sup)" in the damage prevention step
feels......very weird to me.
If it was up to me,
I would change it to;
All damage inflicted during "Before range is determined" step will be applied at the end of the step.
(Damage will be dealt even if the step ended due to "combat ends" effect.)
When damage are applied, damage prevention or other effects can be used,
BUT cards that are "Only usable before range is determined." CANNOT be used at this timing.
I think this would solve all the mess.
> BogusMagus wrote:
> I know my preference is not relevant,
> but playing "Outside the Hourglass (Sup)" in the damage prevention step
> feels......very weird to me.
>
> If it was up to me,
> I would change it to;
> All damage inflicted during "Before range is determined" step will be applied at the end of the step.
> (Damage will be dealt even if the step ended due to "combat ends" effect.)
> When damage are applied, damage prevention or other effects can be used,
> BUT cards that are "Only usable before range is determined." CANNOT be used at this timing.
>
> I think this would solve all the mess.
>
It solves one mess, but adds another - a patchwork of inconsistent rulings.
Why is damage applied in the pre-range step bundled up and dealt later, but not in other steps, or other areas of the game?
Why are 'before range is determined' cards not usable during the damage prevention step from Outside the Hourglass, but other effects are (e.g. tapping The Barrens)? We're before range is determined, but literally banning the play of cards that say they can be played then - but still allowing other plays that don't say "before range is determined". e.g. the terrible, terrible but useful-for-weirdass-rulings card, Nosferatu Putrescence: despite being utterly, farcically terrible, it (unusually for a combat card) has no explicit or implicit timing restriction on it, other than being a combat card.
In this instance, my preference is probably either for:
- the two damage dealing effects end being being 'merged', and handled simultaneously, or
- the play is prevented by fiat generally: no damage dealing effects during damage prevention.
Although in the second case, I'm starting to get mild concerns about how that would marry with a card like Target Vitals or Twisting the Knife.
(Who am I kidding, no copy of Twisting the Knife has ever been played ever. If this is found to be untrue, reality is at fault.)
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
> In this instance, my preference is probably either for:
> - the two damage dealing effects end being being 'merged', and handled simultaneously, or
> - the play is prevented by fiat generally: no damage dealing effects during damage prevention.
>
I don't like the second proposition because it doesn't cover other cases such as Illusions of the Kindred. Or Alpha Glint.
A weird example would be Gabrin (who pays 1 less Chimestry cards) with 2 blood and an Anathema against whom is played an Outside the Hourglass.
During the prevention step, he plays Illusions of the Kindred for 1 blood. Do we handle the damage? If so, it means that the IoK combat is postponed until the damage step is over. But an Aura Reading would be resolved immediately, so new rules would be necessary to handle that case.
The cards we need to consider are :
Barrens: an effect usable anytime Mariel, Lady Thunder: a vampire effect only usable before range is determined that ends combat and inflicts damage Outside the Hourglass: a combat card only usable before range is determined, inflicts damage Aura Reading: a combat card only usable before range is determined, does something unrelated to damage Skin of Rock: a combat card usable anytime (when there's damage to prevent) Flesh of Marble: a combat card only usable before range is determined, that has to do with damage Skin of Night (at inferior): a combat card usable anytime, that has to do with damage Alpha Glint (at superior): a combat card only usable before range is determined, ends combat
Then we can consider the multiple options:
- forbid non-prevention cards/effects from being played during the prevention step. This forbids everything but Skin of Rock. Flesh of Marble isn't a prevention card per se, and Skin of Night doesn't prevent damage
- forbid combat cards and effects that have a non-prevention window timing from being played ("only usable before range is determined" for instance). This allows Barrens, Skin of Rock, Skin of Night, but not Flesh of Marble
- forbid cards that have nothing to damage prevention. This allows Skin of Rock, Skin of Night, Flesh of Marble, but not Barrens (this requires also adding a trait to those allowed cards)
Skin of Rock should obviously be allowed.
I think there's a strong consensus about Skin of Night being usable.
I think there's a mild consensus about Flesh of Marble being usable.
I think there's a strong consensus about Barrens being usable, even if it opens Lady Mariel's ability for use.
I think there's a weak consensus about Aura Reading being usable (because it opens the possibility of played another Outside the Hourglass, or Illusions of the Kindred).
Everything is opened to discussion.
About Outside the Hourglass vs Alpha Glint, the current ruling is:
> > > If the vampire targeted by OtH plays Alpha Glint before resolving
> > > damage does he still have to. Is not combat over?
> >
> > IANLSJ, but it seems to me that damage must be resolved (one way or
> > another) for combat to end.
> Correct.
>
> Rulings:
> Weather Control:
> # Weather Control's damage will occur even if combat is subsequently
> ended before range (by Mariel or Elysium: Arboretum, e.g.) [LSJ
> 19971110]
>
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
As I see it's a very interesting topic has not yet been completed. Can it be told to reply a judge who judges at tournaments of this game?
Should be read the last Ankha answer and answer what is acceptable from everything written.
Playing VTES I never really occurred this situation, but it is possible to happen
A suggestion on wording an earlier idea:
"Damage is not dealt before range is determined. Any damage that is attempted to be dealt before range is determined, is dealt in the same order it was played in during range determination."
That would mean that minions can front load a lot of card effects, with damage only being dealt afterwards, but with the impulse being respected. In this version Illusion of Kindred and Alpha Glint could dodge damage. (Which I personally am fine with)
Edit: And given that Lady Thunder only deals her damage after combat ends, nothing would change there.
Edit2: I hope this is not a necro, I came from the Newsletter.
> Weather Control
>
> Only usable before range is determined on the first round.
> Both combatants and each of their retainers take 1 unpreventable damage before range is determined each round. A vampire may play only one Weather Control each combat.
> As above, but the amount of damage inflicted increases by 1 in each subsequent round.
>
to further muddy the waters, Weather control is way less straightforward than Outside the Hourglass, as it says "Before range is determined" in its text as well as its 'restriction text'
1.6.1.5 Sequencing . If two or more players want to play a card or effect, the acting Methuselah plays first. At every stage, the acting player always has the opportunity to play the next card or effect. So after playing one effect, she may play another and another. Once she is finished, the opportunity passes to the defending Methuselah (in the cases of directed actions and combat), then to the rest of the Methuselahs in clockwise order from the acting Methuselah. Note that if any Methuselah uses a card or effect, the acting Methuselah again gets the opportunity to play the next effect.
Weather Control
Only usable before range is determined on the first round.
[tha] Both combatants and each of their retainers take 1 unpreventable damage before range is determined each round. A vampire may play only one Weather Control each combat.
Outside the Hourglass
[TEM] Only usable before range is determined. Inflict 2 damage on the opposing minion. A vampire can play only one Outside the Hourglass at superior each round.
The difference is slight, but substantial. Weather control sets up a "reminder" that before we move the play on the range step, everybody has to take 1 damage. That before is very important, as it means that the damage can be taken any time between now and the very last moment of the prerange step.
Outside the hourglass does the damage instantly. There is no waiting, these is only damage now. Now there is damage queued that needs to be dealt with. I pass impulse and you now have the chance to play cards. If you cannot prevent the damage before passing impulse, you go torpor. Nothing stops you from countering with another OtH, in which case, unless I can prevent , I am also going to torpor.