Hello!
Derange is a weird card. It changes the sect and clan of a vampire until Derange is moved to a different vampire. There has been loads of times when Derange has removed any titles appropriate for a certain sect when the sect is changed, and those titles are lost forever. I couldn't find any reference to this ruling in VEKN archives, however, and the Rulebook tell otherwise:
> 10. Vampire Sects PDF Print E-mail
>
> Some of the various clans of vampires have grouped themselves into sects. Each sect represents clans with similar philosophies and goals. Each sect has its own codes of conduct and its own political structure and titles.
>
> No matter what sect, a vampire cannot have more than one title. If a vampire with a title gains another, he loses the first title, even if the new title would be a demotion. If a vampire with a contested title (see Contested Titles, sec. 4.2) gains a title, he immediately yields the contested title.
>
> Each vampire's sect is given in its card text, and that may override the default sect of that vampire's clan (see the lists in the following sections). If a vampire changes clans (by means of a Clan Impersonation card, for example) to a clan that belongs to a different sect, he changes sects as well.
>
> A vampire must belong to the appropriate sect to receive a title. If a vampire with a title changes clans or sects to a clan or sect inappropriate for his title, he loses the benefit of the title until his clan or sect changes appropriately. If he receives a new title, or if his title is contested (see Contested Titles, sec. 4.2), he immediately yields the old title.
>
Relevant piece of text bolded by me.
I find it irritating to see cards that are legally played differently than how the rules themselves tell us to play them, and sometimes rather clearly. Say, I heard there was a ruling that either Telepathic Tracking, or Psyche! or some similar card that continues combat after it ends overrules Rötschreck, and makes it redundant. The cards themselves are pretty clear to me. How are we supposed to know of these erratas if they are not archived in VEKN?
Also, as an extra: is the City Circle a "title" assosciated with Sect? So, if a Blood Brother would be Deranged, is he/she still a part of the Circle? I cannot see why not.
"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise
garourimgazette.wordpress.com/
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If people have permanently removed titles with Derange they haven't been playing it legally. Derange only makes the title inert until the character becomes legal for it again (generally by moving the derange).
Also the card texts of Psyche!, TT, and Rotschreck are clear so why would they need an errata? Rotschrek ends combat, then sends the vampire to torpor, stopping the combat from ending or starting a new combat negates the rest of the text.
Also no the city circle is not associated with sect, HOWEVER, all sanguinus cards specifically look for a 'blood brother' of the same circle, so you still wouldn't be able to affect a malkavian of the same circle.
Bloodbrothers' Circles are a property like Anarch or Black Hand.
Derange forces you to the default sect for Malkavian (Camarilla) or Malkavian-antitribu (Sabbat) depending on the acting vampire.
If you hold a sect that matches with the title after gaining the Derange, you keep the title.
Example: A Malkavian deranges a Ventrue Prince. Since both Princes are Camarilla titles, the Malkavian Derange (which would make you Camarilla) does nothing to the title. If the same action was done by a Malkavian-antitribu on a Ventrue Prince, the Prince will lose their title until they become Camarilla again OR if their title is contested they automatically fail to contest.
If you remove the Derange later, the vampire's original Sect returns and if they can use their title they will regain the title. I don't think that removing a Derange reinstates the Anarch trait but will reinstate the Independent sect. I'd like a clarification from Pascal on that one.
@Cards that are played in a non-intuitive way: Tell me about it. Most of the long and loud debates in our group come about from people either not knowing the current rulings of cards or the rulings being 'unintuitive' from the card text.
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> Bloodbrothers' Circles are a property like Anarch or Black Hand.
>
> Derange forces you to the default sect for Malkavian (Camarilla) or Malkavian-antitribu (Sabbat) depending on the acting vampire.
>
> If you hold a sect that matches with the title after gaining the Derange, you keep the title.
> Example: A Malkavian deranges a Ventrue Prince. Since both Princes are Camarilla titles, the Malkavian Derange (which would make you Camarilla) does nothing to the title. If the same action was done by a Malkavian-antitribu on a Ventrue Prince, the Prince will lose their title until they become Camarilla again OR if their title is contested they automatically fail to contest.
>
> If you remove the Derange later, the vampire's original Sect returns and if they can use their title they will regain the title. I don't think that removing a Derange reinstates the Anarch trait but will reinstate the Independent sect. I'd like a clarification from Pascal on that one.
>
Just as the cards read, and as I thought. This much was clear to me.
So you're saying there is nowhere a ruling that Derange actually destroys titles? Then I have been told wrong for a couple of years. I usually start to doubt things from very early on, and now that I've witnessed some very old school players play rules like Scarce wrong, I've taken it under my belt for real to double check rules. And, thank god, usually cards are played as they tell us to. "Yeah, I remember this being ruled once in a GT differently..." doesn't really convince me. At all.
So yeah. Thanks for this. But if anyone has anything else to say about the matter, please share. Derange is one of those rather poorly written cards, and I'm not surprised it inspires debate.
> @Cards that are played in a non-intuitive way: Tell me about it. Most of the long and loud debates in our group come about from people either not knowing the current rulings of cards or the rulings being 'unintuitive' from the card text.
>
Truu 'dat...
"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise
garourimgazette.wordpress.com/
www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines
> Kraus wrote:
> So you're saying there is nowhere a ruling that Derange actually destroys titles? Then I have been told wrong for a couple of years.
>
There doesn't need to be any ruling because what Derange does is quite clear and exactingly described... wait for it... on the card itself.
Reading cards out loud when (or later, after) players tell you that it does something that sounds wrong usually helps sort out misunderstandings.
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
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Regarding OP's Derange question:
Juggernaut1981's answer is correct. I'm also adding: when you lose the Derange, you return to the base sect of your clan. If Lucita loses it, she becomes Sabbat. If Ingrid Rossler loses it, she becomes Independent (and isn't a Prince until she returns to the Camarailla).
Regarding the Psyche! / Telepathic Tracking / Rötschreck question:
Kevin's answer is correct. It was added to the Rötschreck rulings some time ago by LSJ.
@Juggernaut1981:
Rulebook 10.5 (Anarchs) : If an Anarch changes sect, then he is no longer an Anarch.
If you Derange an Anarch, he'll no longer be an Anarch (unless Fall of the Camarilla / Sabbat is in play, of course).
> So you're saying there is nowhere a ruling that Derange actually destroys titles? Then I have been told wrong for a couple of years. I usually start to doubt things from very early on, and now that I've witnessed some very old school players play rules like Scarce wrong, I've taken it under my belt for real to double check rules. And, thank god, usually cards are played as they tell us to. "Yeah, I remember this being ruled once in a GT differently..." doesn't really convince me. At all.
>
There is no ruling anywhere that Derange removes titles. What you may be referring to is, say, Mary-Ann Blaire getting deranged. Since she is now Malkavian, she cannot possibly hold the Ventrue Justicar title. Of course, once the Derange is moved she will get her title back.
The Scarce rule change is documented just fine in the online rulebook (or any rulebook printed after the change, I guess with LoB?). The same is true for the Infernal rule change and the various other (small) rules changes we've seen the past years.
At this time, I don't think any cards exist that have an errate, as long as you have the latest printing of the card. IIRC, the last errata'd card that needed a new printing was Antedeluvian Awakening (changing "minion" into "vampire") and that was reprinted with HttB. Of course, if you have older cards some of their card texts and/or costs are out of date. Unfortunately, no complete list of errata'd cards exists, other than the huge list of rulings on the left hand side of the menu. White-Wolf's site used to have a very convenient color coded version of this list, where errata were easier to find, but unfortunately it seems this website has given up that convenience in exchange for a more homogenous look.
Your Rotschrek complain is just that - a complaint. The card as written is ambigeous and open for several interpretations. Therefore clarifications and rulings exists how to handle various situations. Phsyche! "beating" Rotschrek is the result of that. You suggest that makes the card worthless; I say it makes the card more balanced.
> You suggest that makes the card worthless; I say it makes the card more balanced.
>
Pardon me. I didn't mean to suggest anything like that. What I meant to say was that Psyche! cancels the effects of Rötschreck. I don't think the card is actually made redundant by that. It's still a powerful card.
But I still think that the interpretation is on the far side of intuition; at least mine! But now that the clarification is there and I know where to find it, it's okay.
And I meant not to rant further about scarce or any of the such. I just used it as an example how even older players may be wrong, and checking facts is a good thing in general. As I believe it is.
Anyways, thanks for the clarifications!
All the best.
-Kraus
"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise
garourimgazette.wordpress.com/
www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines
I thought Derange was an "overlay" temporary change, like Clan Impersonation. [LSJ20100811]
I know default sects are soon to be a thing of the past, but this ruling about non-default sect confused me:
>
> when you lose the Derange, you return to the base sect of your clan. If Lucita loses it, she becomes Sabbat. If Ingrid Rossler loses it, she becomes Independent
>
Is Derange an "actual" clan and sect change, contrary to Clan Impersonation ?
Do Lucita and Ingrid Rossler also come back as Sabbat and Independent if they lose their Clan Impersonation ?
Does this mean a previously played Writ of Acceptance overlays the default sect entailed by Derange ?
By Clan Impersonation ?
> lip wrote:
> I thought Derange was an "overlay" temporary change, like Clan Impersonation. [LSJ20100811]
>
> I know default sects are soon to be a thing of the past, but this ruling about non-default sect confused me:
> >
> > when you lose the Derange, you return to the base sect of your clan. If Lucita loses it, she becomes Sabbat. If Ingrid Rossler loses it, she becomes Independent
> >
> Is Derange an "actual" clan and sect change, contrary to Clan Impersonation ?
>
They work the same.
> lip wrote:
> Do Lucita and Ingrid Rossler also come back as Sabbat and Independent if they lose their Clan Impersonation ?
>
Correct.
> lip wrote:
> a previously played Writ of Acceptance overlays the default sect entailed by Derange ?
>
Correct.
> lip wrote:
> By Clan Impersonation ?
>
They work the same.
Basically Derange and Clan Impersonation change your clan; when you change clan, you also change your sect to the default sect of the clan. So when you revert back to your original clan, your sect changes to the default of that clan.
In any case, if you have a Writ of Acceptance, your sect is Camarilla.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Thanks for the precise answer.
Just for a quick follow-up, do Fall of the Camarilla/Sabbat work the same way ? Or does Ingrid Rossler get back to the Camarilla if the Fall of the Camarilla controller's is ousted ?
Fall of the Camarilla
Gehenna. Do not replace as long as this card is in play.
Requires at least three other Gehenna cards in play. There is no Camarilla. Any Camarilla vampire is considered Independent instead.
> lip wrote:
> Thanks for the precise answer.
>
> Just for a quick follow-up, do Fall of the Camarilla/Sabbat work the same way ? Or does Ingrid Rossler get back to the Camarilla if the Fall of the Camarilla controller's is ousted ?
>
> Fall of the Camarilla
> Gehenna. Do not replace as long as this card is in play.
> Requires at least three other Gehenna cards in play. There is no Camarilla. Any Camarilla vampire is considered Independent instead.
>
See www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/77723-writ-of-acceptance-and-anarch-and-hackerspace?start=0#95462
Ingrid Rossler's sect is dormant, and if the Fall of the Camarilla leaves play, she goes back to Camarilla (if she was Camarilla before).
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> 10. Vampire Sects PDF Print E-mail
>
> Each vampire's sect is given in its card text, and that may override the default sect of that vampire's clan (see the lists in the following sections). If a vampire changes clans (by means of a Clan Impersonation card, for example) to a clan that belongs to a different sect, he changes sects as well.
>
I have similar question related to sects, (hate to Necro) but...
If I play:
Into the Fire
Master. Trifle.Choose a ready non-Sabbat vampire you control. That vampire becomes Sabbat. (His or her clan is not affected.)Changing Sect while Brujah, does not make one into Sabbat !Brujah? Correct? (as I've been told)
This just changes them to Sabbat Brujah?
Thanks