Following on from Library cards; it's time for crypt cards to receive the same treatment.
Thankfully Self Biased had already nailed down a solid redesign of crypt cards here:
www.vekn.net/forum/generic-v-tes-discussion/66100-the-full-bleed-project-updated-07-05-15?start=156
So it was more a case of taking that rule set and applying a design that matched the library card redesign. Here's an old card compared to the new design (ignore the faint border):
For crypt cards the sizing routine was change to maximise the amount of artwork visible — while still retaining clear text. Certain keywords (+bleed, +strength, etc) have be moved to be more prominate. The clan name is now visible as text without any loss of viable artwork space. The group number is faint, aligned to the right and visible on all cards. The capacity blood drop has effect has been toned down, but retained for familiarity.
So far 8 of 40 clan textures have been created. The idea behind these is for them to be recreated as new — but draw from past designs so they're still recognisable — hopefully these will be complete before next week. If anyone is interested in helping out with these skype me: ketec2
Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook
awesome work so far. I think we're going to go around in circles, RE: redundant information. I'd much rather see the Clan Icon and just know it's Tzimisce, and see Sect and title in the black portion of the text box. The group number is hard-ish to read, and someone who has a visual impairment (like the one dude in my playgroup, so i'm sensitive to that) might have a hard time reading it.
and because i have access to the dropbox files, i'm super impressed with your photoshop-fu. and then there's me, rocking back and forth on my fucking clown shoes.
> self wrote:
> awesome work so far. I think we're going to go around in circles, RE: redundant information. I'd much rather see the Clan Icon and just know it's Tzimisce, and see Sect and title in the black portion of the text box. The group number is hard-ish to read, and someone who has a visual impairment (like the one dude in my playgroup, so i'm sensitive to that) might have a hard time reading it.
>
Yep; agreed — increased the visibility of the group number.
In terms of the clan name; I don't think it's redundant. Having both the icon and the text re-enforces while learning and it solves an important design issue: What to do when the vampire has no "text".
By including the clan name, it means that there's always a location for "Group X" and always ensures that there's content for both the white and the black boxes — which means consistency across all crypt cards. Here's just some standard dude:
It would be very odd if there wasn't text in one of the boxes or one of the boxes "just wasn't there".
Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook
> Ke. wrote:
> It would be very odd if there wasn't text in one of the boxes or one of the boxes "just wasn't there".
>
i hadn't thought of that. However, Sect and Titles are still important, and could probably stand to be highlighted more than they currently are.
Also, This layout makes me hate the existence of the stupid antitribu clans even more than I already do (which is not an inconsiderable amount). there's ridiculously easy ways to fix that and we can just pretend there are Sabbat Ventrue and Camarilla Ventrue, and still do bloodlines shit like we already do.
> self wrote:
> i hadn't thought of that. However, Sect and Titles are still important, and could probably stand to be highlighted more than they currently are.
>
Have added bold logic for sect and title:
Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook
*Waves fist* Stupid website update! eating my perfectly good post!
Can we add "votes" to the black bar as a reminder? Stravinsky could read "Tzimisce. 2 Votes. +1 Bleed." in the black box. that way we can skirt the inconsistency of Independent Vampires not having actual titles (harumpf), and have the votes separated from the title, sort of.
> self wrote:
> Can we add "votes" to the black bar as a reminder? Stravinsky could read[/i] "Tzimisce. 2 Votes. +1 Bleed.
>
Yes, I like this idea — however I'm not sure about the feasibility of parsing / interpreting the details correctly. Will take a look.
Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook
it still leaves open priscus shenannigans, but i feel that this would make the shitty divide between independent vamps with titles and everyone else with titles less shitty.
> Ke. wrote:
> In terms of the clan name; I don't think it's redundant. Having both the icon and the text re-enforces while learning and it solves an important design issue: What to do when the vampire has no "text".
>
Flavor text ?
> 666Raziel wrote:
> Flavor text ?
>
Currently no vampires have flavour text. Only 558 library cards have flavour text.
Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook
Sideways thought.
At the moment the 'boxes' on the Crypt and Library redesigns are identical. I'm fairly sure its deliberate, but how about a swap.
Name
|...| Portrait
|...|
|...|
|...|
White box with +Bleed, Votes, Ballots, +Intercept, +Stealth, +Strength, etc
Black box with 'traditional text'.
|
|......................................... Capacity
|.........Art Credit & Copyright
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
It's cool design, but I'm not sure.
Crypt cards are not played from hand, so requerenments to maximize information on the left border do not apply to them, but they got different requirenments - to be distinquisible from across the table.
The same goes to the ally cards.
So my idea is to put "discipline bar" to the right part of the cards, as well as add some simbols for bleed and strength there.
You can do the same for ally cards (with green life circle as in imbued).
NC Russia
> Ke. wrote:
>
> > 666Raziel wrote:
> > Flavor text ?
> >
> Currently no vampires have flavour text. Only 558 library cards have flavour text.
>
I don't see why it's a problem.
We could even try to pick some from library cards that would loose their flavor text with their new design.
> elotar wrote:
> So my idea is to [...] add some simbols for bleed and strength there.
>
> You can do the same for ally cards (with green life circle as in imbued).
>
+1
Love the crisp and lovely design and larger size pictures, yet with info more visible.
> Ke. wrote:
> Yep; agreed — increased the visibility of the group number.
>
Indeed.
The size seems to vary a bit more than with the other text and sometimes the text color is light grey and sometimes (almost) white.
> self wrote:
> also, Clan Icons could probably be larger.
>
Indeed. Lession learned with Final Nights etc...
Finnish Politics!
> Lönkka wrote:
> Love the crisp and lovely design and larger size pictures, yet with info more visible. The size seems to vary a bit more than with the other text and sometimes the text color is light grey and sometimes (almost) white..
>
Part of this is the posted images are from different versions. It's always a fairly solid white now and the size remains consistent with that black box text.
> Lönkka wrote:
>
> > self wrote:
> > also, Clan Icons could probably be larger.
> >
> Indeed. Lession learned with Final Nights etc...
>
Yep; in the process of normalisation all the clan icons. This will resolve issues with both size and alignment. Once the icons are normalised then the can be reliably scaled up / positioned.
Designs for all 40 clans have pretty much been completed. Will post a preview for each clan after a further review to ensure consistency.
Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook
As somebody might remember, I still think that grooping rule is stupid.
Obviously we can't do anything with it by now, and it's a question for other thread, but here we can discuss representation of this rule on cards.
Generally in game group number carries no usefull information, so stated goal to increase it's visibility is, imo, wrong one. The main goal shoul be opposite - to hide it as much as possible.
NC Russia
> elotar wrote:
> Generally in game group number carries no usefull information, so stated goal to increase it's visibility is, imo, wrong one. The main goal shoul be opposite - to hide it as much as possible.
>
It's a very important piece of information; it's illegal to play with non-consecutive groups.
Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook
Please see below for the crypt side bars. Note that the white text will not be on the final card; it's just to label it here and also ignore the bleed around the edge of the bar. Click to expand:
Pretty happy with the end results. Big thanks to Self Biased with helping out.
Will generate some cards and post here also...
Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook
> alek wrote:
> the cards seem darker at the top and the bottom. Is it intentionall?
>
Yes, the side bar gets darker towards the bottom — this is to ensure the discipline icons are clear.
There is no change in the artwork darkness — that is flat.
Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook
Good work, but there are still things to improve.
Considering that there is 39 clans and 7 imbued creeds, there can't be a distinctive color for each of them. Therefore, each clan must be associated to two or more colors and/or a distinctive pattern. The pattern must be recognizable from a distance of 80-100 cm.
Global consideration: don't use dark colors, they are hard to distinguish the patterns should be located between the clan symbol and the vampire disciplines (they must not be put to low on the card) don't use dull texture that the brain can't recognize. They must evocate something precise (chains, paper, a tree, whatever) the discipline symbols are too small
The following crypt side bars propositions are OK Followers of Set: the Egyptian cartouche is distinctive enough Assamite: The red / black curves are perfect Salubri antitribu: The texture is ok Ravnos: the color and pattern are ok Caitiff: as the only non-clan clan, it's ok to have a plain texture. Daughters of Cacophony: the music notes are distinctive enough Ahrimane: looks ok on screen, must be checked when printed Pander: it looks ok, though I don't understand the link between the Pander clan and mud (or a brownie?) True Brujah: the texture (sand/marble) and color are fine Blood Brother: the military-like texture is a great idea Kiasyd: the texture is ok, even it looks a little distorted Salubri: the texture / color are great
The following crypt side bars propositions are ALMOST OK Lasombra: the purple color + the texture are missing a more distinctive pattern. Maybe tentacles of shadows Ishtarri: the pattern is great, the texture also, but it's too dark. There should be more contrast between the background and the foreground Giovanni: the seahorse pattern should be embossed to make it more visible Brujah: the color is too dark, the chains and nails should be more present (add some of them) Toreador: the clan symbol is wrong. Talking about roses, the color is a bit off, and I'll try to add some rose stem with thorns. Or brush strokes. Something to do with art Tremere: the mystic symbols are great, but almost invisible. They should be brighter to contrast with the background Ventrue antitribu: the colors are ok, but the texture is dull Akunanse: the colors are ok, but the texture is dull Ventrue: it looks like velvet, but of the wrong color. Red velvet is closer to the idea of rulership Malkavian antitribu: the white marble stains are at odd with the color of the marble (blue?). The pattern is fine though, but I'd change the colors Abomination: the texture is missing something Toreador antitribu: the distinctive part of the texture is hidden by the clan symbol. The background color is a bit dark Gangrel: the texture patterns are too small. The moss color is fine, but maybe we should see some bark of the tree underneath Baali: the pattern is ok, but the flames aren't bright enough Nagaraja: the texture has no distinctive pattern Guruhi: the texture is ok, it would be better is the light stripes were located higher so they are not hidden by the disciplines. Harbingers of skulls: the texture is missing somthing, like embossed skulls. The clan symbol is missing the Sabbat wax Gargoyle: the texture doesn't recall gargoyles. I wouldn't mind seeing an old rocky gargoyle figure
The following crypt side bars propositions are NOT OK Nosferatu antitribu: a brown texture with no distinctive pattern Samedi: there's nothing there evocating the clan. The color could be ok, but there's definitively something missing Osebo: brown texture with a pattern that isn't visible enough Malkavian: the blood stains are hard to see, the texture is too blurry and too dark Tzimisce: the texture doesn't recall the clan spirit, and the eye has a hard time trying to understand the pattern Harbingers of skull: the textre isn't recognizable. Is it stone? Paper? Nosferatu: the color is too dark, the texture is dull Gangrel antitribu: the colors and the texture are wrong. Tremere antitribu: the texture is wrong Brujah antitribu: The color and the texture are wrong
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Good work, but there are still things to improve.
Considering that there is 39 clans and 7 imbued creeds, there can't be a distinctive color for each of them. Therefore, each clan must be associated to two or more colors and/or a distinctive pattern. The pattern must be recognizable from a distance of 80-100 cm.
Global consideration: don't use dark colors, they are hard to distinguish. And there's too many purple cards. the patterns should be located between the clan symbol and the vampire disciplines (they must not be located too low on the card) don't use dull texture that the brain can't recognize. They must evoke something precise (chains, paper, a tree, whatever) the discipline symbols are too small
The following crypt side bars propositions are OK Followers of Set: the Egyptian cartouche is distinctive enough Assamite: The red / black curves are perfect Salubri antitribu: The texture is ok Ravnos: the color and pattern are ok Caitiff: as the only non-clan clan, it's ok to have a plain texture. Daughters of Cacophony: the music notes are distinctive enough Ahrimane: looks ok on screen, must be checked when printed Pander: it looks ok, though I don't understand the link between the Pander clan and mud (or a brownie?) True Brujah: the texture (sand/marble) and color are fine Blood Brother: the military-like texture is a great idea Kiasyd: the texture is ok, even it looks a little distorted Salubri: the texture / color are great
The following crypt side bars propositions are ALMOST OK Lasombra: the purple color + the texture are missing a more distinctive pattern. Maybe tentacles of shadows Ishtarri: the pattern is great, the texture also, but it's too dark. There should be more contrast between the background and the foreground Giovanni: the seahorse pattern should be embossed to make it more visible Brujah: the color is too dark, the chains and nails should be more present (add some of them) Toreador: the clan symbol is wrong. Talking about roses, the color is a bit off, and I'll try to add some rose stem with thorns. Or brush strokes. Something to do with art Tremere: the mystic symbols are great, but almost invisible. They should be brighter to contrast with the background Ventrue antitribu: the colors are ok, but the texture is dull Akunanse: the colors are ok, but the texture is dull Ventrue: it looks like velvet, but of the wrong color. Red velvet is closer to the idea of rulership Malkavian antitribu: the white marble stains are at odd with the color of the marble (blue?). The pattern is fine though, but I'd change the colors Abomination: the texture is missing something Toreador antitribu: the distinctive part of the texture is hidden by the clan symbol. The background color is a bit dark Gangrel: the texture patterns are too small. The moss color is fine, but maybe we should see some bark of the tree underneath Baali: the pattern is ok, but the flames aren't bright enough Nagaraja: the texture has no distinctive pattern Guruhi: the texture is ok, it would be better is the light stripes were located higher so they are not hidden by the disciplines. Harbingers of skulls: the texture is missing something, like embossed skulls. The clan symbol is missing the Sabbat wax Gargoyle: the texture doesn't recall gargoyles. I wouldn't mind seeing an old rocky gargoyle figure
The following crypt side bars propositions are NOT OK Nosferatu antitribu: a brown texture with no distinctive pattern Samedi: there's nothing there evoking the clan. The color could be ok, but there's definitively something missing Osebo: brown texture with a pattern that isn't visible enough Malkavian: the blood stains are hard to see, the texture is too blurry and too dark Tzimisce: the texture doesn't recall the clan spirit, and the eye has a hard time trying to understand the pattern Harbingers of skull: the texture isn't recognizable. Is it stone? Paper? Nosferatu: the color is too dark, the texture is dull Gangrel antitribu: the colors and the texture are wrong. Tremere antitribu: the texture is wrong Brujah antitribu: The color and the texture are wrong
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ke. wrote:
> It's a very important piece of information; it's illegal to play with non-consecutive groups.
>
Haven't seen or heard about situations, when somebody not totally clueless played with illegal crypt and group number on the card help to identify it.
NC Russia
Ankha did plenty of well thought commentary on the clan colors.
I totally agree with him on discipline symbol size too.
Also some of the older cards looked plain old weird with the enlargened art. Aggrippina especially -as distinctive feature as face shouldn't be copied!
Size of the Grouping number and text is good.
To get more room for the text box for the problem cards that really need a lot of space, I think that moving the Illustrator info sideways to the right side of the card would be a solid thing.
Finnish Politics!
> Ankha wrote:
> ...
> The following crypt side bars propositions are ALMOST OK
> ... ((snipped)) ... Brujah: the color is too dark, the chains and nails should be more present (add some of them)
>
Those would be stitches and press studs on a leather jacket... not chains. Also, that is why it would be dark.
>
> Ventrue: it looks like velvet, but of the wrong color. Red velvet is closer to the idea of rulership
>
Purple is the colour of royalty in lots of places, usually due to the expense of making it. Except China where yellow was the colour of the Emperor.
>
> The following crypt side bars propositions are NOT OK Nosferatu antitribu: a brown texture with no distinctive pattern
>
Like they were in the past VTES cards? Brown, non-descript, sludge-like... sewer like or maybe rat-fur like? Seems appropriate for a clan that can get the nickname Sewer Rats
>
> Tzimisce: the texture doesn't recall the clan spirit, and the eye has a hard time trying to understand the pattern
>
As if the pattern was in a state of change or vicissitude perhaps?
>
> Nosferatu: the color is too dark, the texture is dull
>
See Nos Anti above... same thing really.
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> > ...
> > The following crypt side bars propositions are ALMOST OK
> > ... ((snipped)) ... Brujah: the color is too dark, the chains and nails should be more present (add some of them)
> >
> Those would be stitches and press studs on a leather jacket... not chains. Also, that is why it would be dark.
> >
> > Ventrue: it looks like velvet, but of the wrong color. Red velvet is closer to the idea of rulership
> >
> Purple is the colour of royalty in lots of places, usually due to the expense of making it. Except China where yellow was the colour of the Emperor.
> >
> > The following crypt side bars propositions are NOT OK Nosferatu antitribu: a brown texture with no distinctive pattern
> >
> Like they were in the past VTES cards? Brown, non-descript, sludge-like... sewer like or maybe rat-fur like? Seems appropriate for a clan that can get the nickname Sewer Rats
> >
> > Tzimisce: the texture doesn't recall the clan spirit, and the eye has a hard time trying to understand the pattern
> >
> As if the pattern was in a state of change or vicissitude perhaps?
> >
> > Nosferatu: the color is too dark, the texture is dull
> >
> See Nos Anti above... same thing really.
>
it's not because vampires live at night that dark textures are a good idea.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
after looking at the cards on my mobile and simulating lower light levels, I can really see where Vincent is coming from with his complaints that the textures are often "too dark." as much as I'm not a fan the assamite pattern, it's super easy to recognize. Is there any way you can turn up the contrast in the colors without blowing out the texture or overwhelming the rest of the card?
Revised and most likely final version of the sidebars:
Mainly adjusted levels / brightness / contrast and increased definition on the textures. Quite a few have been modified to add distinction; however some that were deliberately drab (ie Nosferatu) are still drab — albeit with a bit more detail.
Imbued only get the one; however they will have different clan icons.
Themes are predominately drawn from early releases of the game; later releases tend to blur together.
Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook
> Ke. wrote:
> Revised and most likely final version of the sidebars:
> Mainly adjusted levels / brightness / contrast and increased definition on the textures. Quite a few have been modified to add distinction; however some that were deliberately drab (ie Nosferatu) are still drab — albeit with a bit more detail.
>
Excellent work. Have you tried to convert them to CMYK and print them to see if they're ok once printed?
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Overall few issues:
You want to be consistent in library and crypt cards. That is fine. But your white box isn't very suitable for library cards as it isn't clear which box is what type (combat/reaction/action/etc ...), so it isn't very good idea in crypt too.
You base a lot of the sidebar designs upon old design instead of the new ones. It's not really bad, but some aren't looking good for example tremere with those random pseudo-occult letters or ventrue with that blue/gold things (but it's distinctive, and that is good).
It's hard to figure out from the other side of the board if you are up against ahrimane/gargoyle/nosf anti/giovanni.
+1 intercept isn't in black box. It really should be. Perhaps even +hand size too.
Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.
> Ankha wrote:
> Excellent work. Have you tried to convert them to CMYK and print them to see if they're ok once printed?
>
I plan on doing a high quality print run today at a print shop when I pick up some replacement ink for the crappy home printer (which I'll also test). Will use the end product PDFs generated by the collate routine with various degrees of artwork quality (ie. low res scans vs high res VEKN). So this should give a clear idea of the variances involved.
Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook
Thank you for all the hard work for all who have been involved in layout redesign. I was awestruck with the original work back in the black layout days and I'm really glad that redesign is moving forward!
Thank you!
----
Banging trashcans, breaking windows
We'll wake you up tonight
We like the good time, we scream and shout
And that's what fun's about
> Lech wrote:
> You want to be consistent in library and crypt cards. That is fine. But your white box isn't very suitable for library cards as it isn't clear which box is what type (combat/reaction/action/etc ...), so it isn't very good idea in crypt too.
>
I can't see the logic there, since crypt text box will always contain the same type of content. Comparing it to library text box which can accomodate action, combat etc. doesn't make sense.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
OK, lots of printing done. End result very positive — it was like an early christmas.
Printed 200 cards at a print shop and another 60 or so at home. Colours from the print shop were vibrant, however the DPI not so great (suspect they had a setup issue). Colours at home we're a little flatter; but resolution / DPI was great. So it was a good spread for comparisons.
Overall they held up very well. I made a few minor tweaks to saturation / hue but asides from that everything was good. I currently have a temporary phone which is crap — will try an get some photos / comparisons up soon.
Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > Lech wrote:
> > You want to be consistent in library and crypt cards. That is fine. But your white box isn't very suitable for library cards as it isn't clear which box is what type (combat/reaction/action/etc ...), so it isn't very good idea in crypt too.
> >
> I can't see the logic there, since crypt text box will always contain the same type of content. Comparing it to library text box which can accomodate action, combat etc. doesn't make sense.
>
I think Ke. want the boxes in one color to make it look consistent, So changing one without changing the other might be no-go for him.
I suggest what self-biased did before - make the white part transparent (but unlike self-biased version, nearly white - similar to Ke. black box which also is not total black but near black thanks to alpha channel).
Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.
> Ke. wrote:
> OK, lots of printing done. End result very positive — it was like an early christmas.
>
> Printed 200 cards at a print shop and another 60 or so at home. Colours from the print shop were vibrant, however the DPI not so great (suspect they had a setup issue). Colours at home we're a little flatter; but resolution / DPI was great. So it was a good spread for comparisons.
>
> Overall they held up very well. I made a few minor tweaks to saturation / hue but asides from that everything was good. I currently have a temporary phone which is crap — will try an get some photos / comparisons up soon.
>
So, did you find a camera?
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
> So, did you find a camera?
>
No; instead of faffing around with my shitty tmp phone (it's a windows phone!) — I built a deck building tool with PDF generation built into it. It's mostly done; hopefully will release it shortly.
Here's a link to a random deck I imported from SecretLibrary:
dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17269164/vtes/layout/example-deck.pdf
Here are some photos from the shitty phone:
The card text now use the latest card text from you and Floppy.
Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook
looks great!
my only criticism is that i would very strongly prefer having votes in the black box. it would make it way less awkward and shitty to just see Independent (Titled): in the text box, and votes in the black box than the way it currently displays.
> self wrote:
> looks great!
>
> my only criticism is that i would very strongly prefer having votes in the black box. it would make it way less awkward and shitty to just see Independent (Titled): in the text box, and votes in the black box than the way it currently displays.
>
For my part, I would put everything in the black box : clan, sect, title (vote) {if any}, keyword, bonus.
Also, I think it would help new player if the cards tell how many vote a title has.
So for example :
Brunhilde Advanced
Gangrel. Independent. Baron of Stockholm (titled) : 2 votes. Anarch. Group 3
Josef von Bauren
Nosferatu. Camarilla. Nosferatu Inner Circle (titled) : 4 votes. +1 bleed. +1 stealth. Group 4
Vestgeir
Ravnos. Sabbat. Priscus (titled) : 1 ballot. +1 bleed. Group 6
Enam
Assamite. Camarilla. Prince of Cordoba (titled) : 2 votes. Blood cursed. Group 3
Jamal
Assamite. Independent. Titled : 2 votes. Blood cursed. Red List. +1 bleed. Group 5
EDIT : maybe we should use a "-" between the sect and the title to indicate that the title belongs to that specific sect.
This is my feedback on Ke's new crypt card layout.
1. The area for the artwork should not be variable, because, in order to produce optimal results, artists need to know how their illustrations are going to look on the final card.
2. Are the two text boxes really necessary for crypt cards? Can't we just bold the text we want to emphasise?
3. Not all the artwork adapts well to the new layout.
4. The fact that the artwork stretches from the top to the bottom of the card, and that it is partially covered by the two text boxes, makes it difficult for the artist to conceive an illustration that does not get harmed by that fact. Moving the text box to the lower end of the card and placing the artist's name elsewhere could be a suitable solution.
V:EKN Website Coordinator
> Damnans wrote:
> 1. The area for the artwork should not be variable, because, in order to produce optimal results, artists need to know how their illustrations are going to look on the final card.
>
The area for the artwork is marginally variable. The ratio pretty much remains the same (with a *very* slight variance) and there is more space available for the artwork (see later in post).
> Damnans wrote:
> 2. Are the two text boxes really necessary for crypt cards? Can't we just bold the text we want to emphasise?
>
The new crypt cards have the clan name in text (ommitted before!) and a clear location for group. Separating this information out keeps the content fairly similar to previous crypt cards.
As to what other pieces of information are placed here that's open to discussion. Currently the following are also included here:
+Bleed (no conditions)
+Strength (no conditions)
+Stealth (no conditions)
+Intercept (no conditions)
Infernal
Scarce
Sterile
Infernal
Blood cursed
Sect and title remain in the white box and are BOLD if the there is other content. You can't make everything bold — defeats the purpose of bold text...
> Damnans wrote:
> 3. Not all the artwork adapts well to the new layout.
>
The new layout works amazing when we have original artwork — see below. When the source of the artwork is lower quality artscans of course it's going to struggle to fill the void. The solution is higher quality scans and access to more original artwork. It's not to trash the entire design because some cards don't look perfect. There is ZERO possibility that someone is going to manually layout all 3700 cards — so in the mean time we have to make do with near perfect.
We can crowd source better scans of cards; these days a shot from a mobile phone is good enough to replace the current scans — more on that later.
> Damnans wrote:
> 4. The fact that the artwork stretches from the top to the bottom of the card, and that it is partially covered by the two text boxes, makes it difficult for the artist to conceive an illustration that does not get harmed by that fact. Moving the text box to the lower end of the card and placing the artist's name elsewhere could be a suitable solution.
>
This is not correct. The artwork does not stretch from the top to the bottom of the card. The artwork remains proportional to the previous "framed" versions — but scales in size when space allows. The content under the text box is dynamically generated from the artwork — it does not use the actual artwork under the white text box:
Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook
The new cards can now be reviewed / tested by everyone here: amaranth.vtes.co.nz/ (posting here for completeness).
Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook
Tested them, especially ALM and DDdP (Lasombra from 2nd group), and procedural artwork is not looking good on those at all.
Enam (Assamite) have reversed disciplines. Imanna too, and multiple other Assamites too.
Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.
> Lech wrote:
> Tested them, especially ALM and DDdP (Lasombra from 2nd group), and procedural artwork is not looking good on those at all.
>
> Enam (Assamite) have reversed disciplines. Imanna too, and multiple other Assamites too.
>
Thanks, have corrected the disciplines.
In terms of any issues with artwork the best thing to do is to used the comment button:
From there it's relatively quick to correct it.
Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook
> Ke. wrote:
> The new crypt cards have the clan name in text (ommitted before!) and a clear location for group. Separating this information out keeps the content fairly similar to previous crypt cards.
>
> As to what other pieces of information are placed here that's open to discussion. Currently the following are also included here:
>
> +Bleed (no conditions)
> +Strength (no conditions)
> +Stealth (no conditions)
> +Intercept (no conditions)
> Infernal
> Scarce
> Sterile
> Infernal
> Blood cursed
>
> Sect and title remain in the white box and are BOLD if the there is other content. You can't make everything bold — defeats the purpose of bold text...
>
Ok, first, currently, Infernal does appear properly. There are a lot of vampire with this trait in theirs white box instead of the black one.
Then, I think that, before discussing what goes where, we should be clear about how we write them.
Personally, I prefer if, in the black box,we had : Clan / Traits (ordered alphabetically) / +Bleed, 'cept, etc. (ordered alphabetically).
Right now I can't find any logic in the setting. And some of them (like Petaniqua ADV) looks very unaesthetic to me.
As for the white box, I think that the sect (and traits if any) should always be bold. Even if there is no other text.
> 666Raziel wrote:
>
> > Ke. wrote:
> > The new crypt cards have the clan name in text (ommitted before!) and a clear location for group. Separating this information out keeps the content fairly similar to previous crypt cards.
> >
> > As to what other pieces of information are placed here that's open to discussion. Currently the following are also included here:
> >
> > +Bleed (no conditions)
> > +Strength (no conditions)
> > +Stealth (no conditions)
> > +Intercept (no conditions)
> > Infernal
> > Scarce
> > Sterile
> > Infernal
> > Blood cursed
> >
> > Sect and title remain in the white box and are BOLD if the there is other content. You can't make everything bold — defeats the purpose of bold text...
> >
> Ok, first, currently, Infernal does appear properly. There are a lot of vampire with this trait in theirs white box instead of the black one.
>
> Then, I think that, before discussing what goes where, we should be clear about how we write them.
> Personally, I prefer if, in the black box,we had : Clan / Traits (ordered alphabetically) / +Bleed, 'cept, etc. (ordered alphabetically).
> Right now I can't find any logic in the setting. And some of them (like Petaniqua ADV) looks very unaesthetic to me.
>
> As for the white box, I think that the sect (and traits if any) should always be bold. Even if there is no other text.
>
See www.vekn.net/output-changes#R0213
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> 666Raziel wrote:
> Then, I think that, before discussing what goes where, we should be clear about how we write them.
> Personally, I prefer if, in the black box,we had : Clan / Traits (ordered alphabetically) / +Bleed, 'cept, etc. (ordered alphabetically).
> Right now I can't find any logic in the setting. And some of them (like Petaniqua ADV) looks very unaesthetic to me.
>
I completely agree. As a designer, I would have no idea why a given piece of crypt text would go in the black text box or the white text box apart from "Ke said so". To be fair, I currently have no idea for the official crypt layout why a given piece of crypt text would be bolded or unbolded apart from "LSJ/Pascal/Vincent said so". There's a rules-level overhaul needed here before we consider a layout change unless we stick with the game "as is".
> BenPeal wrote:
> As a designer, I would have no idea why a given piece of crypt text would go in the black text box or the white text box apart from "Ke said so".
>
Come on; that's is a bit rich. It wasn't because of "Ke said so" — it was because of community input and me listening to that input. Now that you're taking part you can offer your input also — great.
I think at the very least non-conditional +bleed, +strength, +intercept and +stealth should be bold.
Here are a few variations:
Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook
> Ke. wrote:
> I think at the very least non-conditional +bleed, +strength, +intercept and +stealth should be bold.
>
Why do you treat non-conditional +X hand size differently ?
Though I get that this ability targets the player when the other target the vampire, I don't think that we should separate abilities that use the same wording.
Also, why not try something more faithful to the pattern Ankha linked ?
> Pattern: '{Sect}. {Title}. {Traits}:'. If the sect and the title go together, no full stop to separate them : 'Camarilla Prince of...'. For unnamed titles : 'Independent. 1 vote (titled)'. Traits are then listed in alphabetic order: 'Black Hand. Infernal. Seraph'. If the vampire is non-unique, write 'Non-unique' just after the ':'. Eg. 'Independent: Non-unique' (It isn't a trait per se).
>
With your layout we only need to add {Clan}. before {Sect}. and then end with {Group}.
(BTW, I don't know if here is the right place to talk about it, but I strongly disagree with not considering "Non-unique" as a trait. Unique is a trait, its opposite should be as well even if they are not on the same cardtype.)
Anyway, all this could go in the black box and you could leave the white box for abilities and non-conditionnal bonus.
> Ke. wrote:
>
> > BenPeal wrote:
> > As a designer, I would have no idea why a given piece of crypt text would go in the black text box or the white text box apart from "Ke said so".
> >
> Come on; that's is a bit rich. It wasn't because of "Ke said so" — it was because of community input and me listening to that input. Now that you're taking part you can offer your input also — great.
>
It really doesn't matter. There is no logical structure to the crypt text templating you're proposing and it is therefore not useful to the people who design the cards for this game.
> I think at the very least non-conditional +bleed, +strength, +intercept and +stealth should be bold.
>
I think a more solid logical foundation to the crypt text templating needs to be established, otherwise the current official templating is preferable. A discussion of crypt text templating probably belongs in another thread.
At any rate, I very much like self biased's original layout concept of an open-border crypt card with a fixed text box and standard text templating. It has the clean, fresh, and modern look while remaining consistent with existing cards.
To give you all some insight into how insane the current, official crypt text templating rules are:
SECT
BOLD
Camarilla
Sabbat
Independent
Laibon
(Anarch)
TITLE
BOLD
Primogen
Prince of CITY
Justicar
Imperator
Inner Circle
Bishop
Archbishop of CITY
Priscus
Regent
Baron of CITY
Magaji
Kholo (not on existing crypt cards)
NOT BOLD
1 vote (titled)
2 votes (titled)
KEYWORD
BOLD
Black Hand
Seraph
NOT BOLD
Flight (plus symbol)
SPECIAL RULE/TERM
BOLD
Red List
Advanced (currently only represented by symbol)
NOT BOLD
Non-unique
Sterile
Infernal
Vulnerability
Blood cursed
Circle
Slave
Scarce
That's why I love Ke layout.
Having 2 different "space" in crypt cards is, in my opinion, a great way to standardize wording.
We can now have one box for mandatory keyword and term that have implication of their own. And one box for abilities specific to the vampire/imbued.
The pattern is already set (though it need some specific decision).
One of the thing left to discuss is maybe what to do with non conditional "+X bonus".
EDIT : this might also help to make Merged abilities more identifiable.
> 666Raziel wrote:
> That's why I love Ke layout.
>
> Having 2 different "space" in crypt cards is, in my opinion, a great way to standardize wording.
> We can now have one box for mandatory keyword and term that have implication of their own. And one box for abilities specific to the vampire/imbued.
>
These two "spaces" already exist in the current, official crypt text templating: before the colon for bold and after the colon for non-bold. Whether these elements are better displayed in the proposed template is another matter (they might be, and I do like the concept of having a properly dedicated space for the Group number). However, the proposed layout and text templating doesn't address the underlying issues with the current bold/not-bold insanity. It instead adds an extra element of confusion by additionally having some abilities being bolded (black text box) and not others.
I strongly recommend keeping the current, official templating as-is, however dumb it may be, for the sake of consistency with existing cards. It's either that or putting very serious work into overhauling the crypt templating rules.
> BenPeal wrote:
> I strongly recommend keeping the current, official templating as-is, however dumb it may be, for the sake of consistency with existing cards. It's either that or putting very serious work into overhauling the crypt templating rules.
>
I am not doing all the "hard work" here so I don't know if my opinion is relevant, but I think it's a shame not to seize the opportunity of a fresher layout in order improve the cardtext pattern.
VTES already had so many changes on that subject. I don't think we need one more if it's not to accompany some improvement in the cardtext.
> 666Raziel wrote:
>
> > BenPeal wrote:
> > I strongly recommend keeping the current, official templating as-is, however dumb it may be, for the sake of consistency with existing cards. It's either that or putting very serious work into overhauling the crypt templating rules.
> >
> I am not doing all the "hard work" here so I don't know if my opinion is relevant, but I think it's a shame not to seize the opportunity of a fresher layout in order improve the cardtext pattern.
>
> VTES already had so many changes on that subject. I don't think we need one more if it's not to accompany some improvement in the cardtext.
>
Your opinion and input is very much welcome. With regards to changes in card text templating, it's an ongoing process on the part of the Rules Team, and their changes have definitely been implemented. A few examples we've implemented in the VEKN pdf sets:
- getting consistency with "may/can" and "may not/cannot".
- changing the templating for Anarch 3-way cards.
- Removing "Advanced" from crypt text boxes and using only the Advanced icon ( ).
> BenPeal wrote:
> - Removing "Advanced" from crypt text boxes and using only the Advanced icon ( ).
>
The horrible, horrible, horrible icon. It's way too late to change it now, but honestly, it's by far the worst icon in the game.
How about this:
Use the black text box and the white text box layout with a fixed size.
Sect, Title, and Group go in the black text box. (Clan only represented by icon in the upper left corner of the card.)
All other text goes in the white text box. ALL keywords and special terms in the white text box are bold.
I'm undecided on whether simple +something text should be bold. I understand and kinda agree with the desire to make those abilities more noticeable. However, I also like the idea of having a standard of highlighting text that is a requirement for playing other cards and/or refers to a special rule in the rulebook.
Could be a start ! B)
With more space in the black box, I think we should also indicates how many vote a title is worth. (Like it was done for Imperator.)
However, what about terms that are linked to a sect ? (Anarch or Black Hand)
Shouldn't all terms be in the same place ?
> 666Raziel wrote:
> Could be a start ! B)
>
> With more space in the black box, I think we should also indicates how many vote a title is worth. (Like it was done for Imperator.)
>
> However, what about terms that are linked to a sect ? (Anarch or Black Hand)
> Shouldn't all terms be in the same place ?
>
I suppose the most awkward case is "Independent. Anarch Baron of Stockholm Group 3". There likely isn't room in the text box to comfortably add "(2 votes)".
With regard to titled Anarchs, it's a bit odd to have Anarch and Independent in separate text boxes, but I can live with it for the sake of consistency in having all non-sect, non-title keywords and terms in the same place. Presently, this only matters in the case of Brunhilde Adv, but it would affect any new vampires who are Barons when unmerged.
Black Hand and Seraph are, oddly, not defined in the rules and are simply keywords. As such, they're technically not linked to the Sabbat sect and there's no requirement in the rules that a vampire be Sabbat to be Black Hand or even be Black Hand to be a Seraph. This is seen in Yazid Tamari, who when merged is Independent, Anarch, Black Hand, and Seraph.
www.secretlibrary.info/index.php?crypt=695
www.secretlibrary.info/index.php?crypt=1310
> BenPeal wrote:
> How about this:
>
> Use the black text box and the white text box layout with a fixed size.
>
> Sect, Title, and Group go in the black text box. (Clan only represented by icon in the upper left corner of the card.)
>
> All other text goes in the white text box. ALL keywords and special terms in the white text box are bold.
>
> BenPeal wrote:
> I suppose the most awkward case is "Independent. Anarch Baron of Stockholm Group 3". There likely isn't room in the text box to comfortably add "(2 votes)".
>
If you stick to the rule you suggested, the black part should contain: "Independent. Baron of Stockholm" and the white part should contain "Anarch."
I'm not a big fan of dividing the text boxes as there isn't a good reason to do so. Is the sect more important than a "Seraph" trait? Both are used to play cards for instance. (This is also the case for Infernal that has its own rule, and that is a requirement for cards).
Also, I think that deckbuilding-related informations (such as grouping) should not appear at the same level as the play informations. Netrunner Android has that kind of informations moved to the border of the card where it can be conveniently counted when browsing your deck, and don't interfere with the clarity of the card when you get to play it:
Influence is in 10:
The group should be moved away from the cardtext.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > BenPeal wrote:
> > I suppose the most awkward case is "Independent. Anarch Baron of Stockholm Group 3". There likely isn't room in the text box to comfortably add "(2 votes)".
> >
> If you stick to the rule you suggested, the black part should contain: "Independent. Baron of Stockholm" and the white part should contain "Anarch."
>
True, though 666Raziel proposed the idea of having Anarch (and Black Hand and Seraph) in the black text box due to sect association. I figured I'd show the worst-case example for that.
> I'm not a big fan of dividing the text boxes as there isn't a good reason to do so. Is the sect more important than a "Seraph" trait? Both are used to play cards for instance. (This is also the case for Infernal that has its own rule, and that is a requirement for cards).
>
I think we're in agreement that traits/terms/keywords which are requirements for other cards should be bolded or otherwise indicated distinctly from regular card text. I also feel the same way for traits/terms/keywords which have their own special rules. However, if we kept the current before/after-colon templating and bolded every sect, title, keyword, term, trait, and attribute, we would frequently end up with crypt cards that have a long string of bolded text before the colon. The separate elements of this text would then lose their distinctiveness.
While the current crypt text templating system is asinine, it does show that we consider some terms to be more important than others. It seems clear that we need an additional level of priority/importance/distinction for certain terms in the text. Given that every vampire has a sect, and given that sects are requirements for titles, I'm inclined to think that the line for the proposed new level of distinction should be drawn there. The question would then be how to represent it on the card.
> Also, I think that deckbuilding-related informations (such as grouping) should not appear at the same level as the play informations.
> ...
> The group should be moved away from the cardtext.
>
Fair point, and I've grumbled about the size and prominence of expansion symbols despite their representing zero play information. I suppose I can similarly grumble about Group numbers.
> Ankha wrote:
> I'm not a big fan of dividing the text boxes as there isn't a good reason to do so. Is the sect more important than a "Seraph" trait? Both are used to play cards for instance. (This is also the case for Infernal that has its own rule, and that is a requirement for cards).
>
Well, in my opinion, there is a good objective reason to do it : part of the cardtext are keyword that have their own rules and and/or serve as requirement for other cards. The other part is just text specific to the card.
If you look at Android : Netrunner, they are doing the very same thing. The keyword (4) are separated from the rest of the cardtext (5).
As for the group, I think you are right. But I have no idea where to put that information.
> BenPeal wrote:
> Use the black text box and the white text box layout with a fixed size.
>
I'm not adverse to a fixed size for the text area — however I think it should be tested and compared before being decided on. I'll see if I can put together some comparisons. IIRC in early testing it performed far worse than dynamic.
> BenPeal wrote:
> Sect, Title, and Group go in the black text box.
>
I think it's important to keep the sect where it is. It's familiar to current players and it solves a design problem — what to do when the vampire has no text. This applies to the clan also. By including both you ensure there is always content for the black and white areas and as a bonus, including the clan name also helps new players learn the clans. So take this random vampire for example:
This vampire has no text asides from "Camarilla", including the clan name ensures a constant design across all crypt cards.
> BenPeal wrote:
> To give you all some insight into how insane the current, official crypt text templating rules are.
>
It's important to note the system leverages the card text completely — it does not rewrite it. So the rules you mention still apply when writing card text.
All that then happens is that it can either highlight or extract certain values.
For example here's what it does with Yazid:
It's extracted the +1 bleed and added to to the back box. It's then realised that there's no other text after the colon, so it's replaced the colon with a stop and not bolded the text (bold everything is pointless). Here's it just leveraging the raw text:
Note, I've iconified the group number so it's not so prominent and takes up less space.
I think we can apply a clear rule as to what appears prominent in the black area: Permanent effects that affect game state.
So not traits or keywords, only effects that are active and impact game play. These currently are:
+bleed
+strength
+intercept
+stealth,
+handsize
So Saulot looks like this now:
And here's the Capuchin:
The goal here wasn't throw out all the rules and start from scratch. It was to evolve the current design in a manner that helped new players, did not alienate current players and leveraged the existing artwork. Effectively allowing the design to be used with the current card set without causing too much confusion.
This was similar with library cards; an evolutionary design — not revolutionary (more on library cards later).
Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook
> BenPeal wrote:
> I'm undecided on whether simple +something text should be bold. I understand and kinda agree with the desire to make those abilities more noticeable. However, I also like the idea of having a standard of highlighting text that is a requirement for playing other cards and/or refers to a special rule in the rulebook.
>
This is easily solved! The Design Team can just create a bunch of cards that require all the things.
Card Name #1
Requires a minion with +1 bleed (or more)
...
Card Name #2
Requires a minion with +1 strength (or more)
...
Card Name #3271
Requires a minion enslaved to a non-anarch, infernal, independent Salubri Antitribu with a title worth at least 1 vote.
And so on.
Everything can now make sense, and no-one could possibly object.
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
> This is easily solved! The Design Team can just create a bunch of cards that require all the things.
> ....
> Everything can now make sense, and no-one could possibly object.
>
On a somewhat more serious note, this is a problem with deciding what goes in bold based on what other cards require now, because it can change.
The "Rough and Tumble" expansion, pencilled in for 2021, might decide that some big vampires are a bit useless, and so hand out an ability usable by vampires with +1 strength. Or built-in aggravated hand damage.
Or you might create a card that requires a sterile vampire (which is mostly an anti-keyword - pretty much every use of it is "non-sterile" that I can think of).
You can also get into fun situations where you create a brand new ability, but haven't yet decided on whether you want it to require anything. In 2019, Bobby the Brujah gets created with a special ability that's never been thought of before. Bold or not bold?
> Ke. wrote:
> I think it's important to keep the sect where it is. It's familiar to current players and it solves a design problem — what to do when the vampire has no text. This applies to the clan also. By including both you ensure there is always content for the black and white areas and as a bonus, including the clan name also helps new players learn the clans. So take this random vampire for example:
>
> This vampire has no text asides from "Camarilla", including the clan name ensures a constant design across all crypt cards.
>
There are other way to solve that design problem. As I've said many times, flavor text could be added to vampire in this situation.
As for the location of the sect, until now, it has always been the first information readable on a vampire. So if you want to be familiar with current player, I think you should place it in the black box since it's the first thing player will read.
> Ke. wrote:
> Note, I've iconified the group number so it's not so prominent and takes up less space.
>
For me, it's a step back. We are still having deckbuilding information in the same area as gameplay information. And now we don't even have the ease of comprehension we had when it was written fully.
Idea : what if group were written (fully) between the vampire name and it's clan icon ?
> Ke. wrote:
> I think we can apply a clear rule as to what appears prominent in the black area: Permanent effects that affect game state.
>
> So not traits or keywords, only effects that are active and impact game play. These currently are:
>
> +bleed
> +strength
> +intercept
> +stealth,
> +handsize
>
> So Saulot looks like this now:
>
Don't want to be rude or anything, but for me, your rule is not clear at all...
What are permanents effects ? Why is "+X strength" more permanent than "+X strength against Y" ?
Besides, your realization contradict your rule. Why is clan in the black area ? For me, a clan is not more permanent than "Scarce" or even a sect.
Could you please make a try where black box is only for keyword. And everything else goes to the white box ?
Vampire text is really like a character sheet. I can't think of a clever way to split all the characteristics in two parts only. Title has nothing to do with strength bonus. Strength bonus has nothing to do with bleed bonus. Etc.
So there won't be any clever rule, and all rules will be arbitrary. Perhaps the best way is too keep all the text together.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
> Vampire text is really like a character sheet. I can't think of a clever way to split all the characteristics in two parts only. Title has nothing to do with strength bonus. Strength bonus has nothing to do with bleed bonus. Etc.
> So there won't be any clever rule, and all rules will be arbitrary. Perhaps the best way is too keep all the text together.
>
The thing is that by using bold text, you already are splitting the cardtext.
Let's look at this vampire :
If we follow the rules you linked earlier (www.vekn.net/output-changes#R0213), his new cardtext would already be :
> Independent. 2 votes (titled). Blood cursed. Redlist : Jamal gets +1 strength in combat with allies and Camarilla vampires. +1 bleed.
>
With Ke's layout we can have the exact same thing but instead of having bold text, those information are written in a black box (with the addition of clan at the beginning).
> 666Raziel wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> > Vampire text is really like a character sheet. I can't think of a clever way to split all the characteristics in two parts only. Title has nothing to do with strength bonus. Strength bonus has nothing to do with bleed bonus. Etc.
> > So there won't be any clever rule, and all rules will be arbitrary. Perhaps the best way is too keep all the text together.
> >
> The thing is that by using bold text, you already are splitting the cardtext.
>
> Let's look at this vampire :
>
> If we follow the rules you linked earlier (www.vekn.net/output-changes#R0213), his new cardtext would already be :
>
> > Independent. 2 votes (titled). Blood cursed. Redlist : Jamal gets +1 strength in combat with allies and Camarilla vampires. +1 bleed.
> >
> With Ke's layout we can have the exact same thing but instead of having bold text, those information are written in a black box (with the addition of clan at the beginning).
>
I know it's already the case, and it's arbitrary. The advantage of using bold is that you can put the two texts aside, which reduces the space wasted by a new line.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
> I know it's already the case, and it's arbitrary. The advantage of using bold is that you can put the two texts aside, which reduces the space wasted by a new line.
>
For reference here is Jamal solely using the new text without extraction:
All the cards use the new text.
Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook
So far only Jamal use new text.
Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.
> Lech wrote:
> So far only Jamal use new text.
>
Thanks; all the crypt cards have now been updated.
Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook
> Non-existant user wrote:
> At least the sect should be in the same block as the clan, since those are the two traits that all vampires have.
>
Yes I thought this also initially — however what happens when there's no other text? Just an empty white box? or no white box? either causes issues.
I think the current approach is most likely the best as it uses official (albeit new) card text as is without modification. The only difference is there's a new spot for clan name and group.
Quick fact: 7.5% of cards refer to clan by name without icons (this exclude cards where the clan is a requirement).
Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook
> alek wrote:
> In such cases You could add flavor text or "no special abilities" phrase
>
This would affect 22% of crypt cards (320+).
I don't think adding unnecessary information is a solution:
The one on the left is much easier to parse.
Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook
> Ke. wrote:
>
> I don't think adding unnecessary information is a solution:
>
Flavour text is not an unnesesary information, it's the way to make boring cards (like most vampires without abilities) into something interesting.
NC Russia
> elotar wrote:
> Flavour text is not an unnesesary information, it's the way to make boring cards (like most vampires without abilities) into something interesting.
>
In this scenario it would make a plain vampire look like it has a wall-of-text special — which is counter productive:
Besides; unlike some library cards, on this occasion there just isn't the space to fill.
Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook
> alek wrote:
> looks good to me (one on the right). Just remember to put flavor text in """ to distinguish it from special abilities.
>
+1
A "-" should also come before the author's name.
Regarding those try, even if you left sect in the white box, the flavor text should not start on the same line as game information.
You could also make a try with a smaller font size.
> elotar wrote:
> Flavour text is not an unnesesary information, it's the way to make boring cards (like most vampires without abilities) into something interesting.
>
I'd really, really, really rather not have flavour text on 'empty' vampires. Borrowing quotes from (out of copyright) published works is a pain in the ass, and coming up with something interesting, unique or witty for each empty vampire to say is just going to get dull. In particular, there are a lot of empty vampires who are small-medium and generally won't be interesting vampires in the grand scheme of things - not big enough to have a fun special ability, but not hamstrung with a disability. Just some 3 cap with 2 disciplines, or whatever. That's going to get nauseatingly dull, fast.
Things is, the vampires who might have interesting flavour text potential are pretty much going to be the ones who already have very full text boxes. Arika? Anson? Count Germaine? Xipe Totec? Cyble? Enkidu? Saulot? I'd probably be interesting in reading some flavour text relating to them - but their textboxes are usually pretty full.
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
>
> > elotar wrote:
> > Flavour text is not an unnesesary information, it's the way to make boring cards (like most vampires without abilities) into something interesting.
> >
> I'd really, really, really rather not have flavour text on 'empty' vampires. Borrowing quotes from (out of copyright) published works is a pain in the ass, and coming up with something interesting, unique or witty for each empty vampire to say is just going to get dull. In particular, there are a lot of empty vampires who are small-medium and generally won't be interesting vampires in the grand scheme of things - not big enough to have a fun special ability, but not hamstrung with a disability. Just some 3 cap with 2 disciplines, or whatever. That's going to get nauseatingly dull, fast.
>
> Things is, the vampires who might have interesting flavour text potential are pretty much going to be the ones who already have very full text boxes. Arika? Anson? Count Germaine? Xipe Totec? Cyble? Enkidu? Saulot? I'd probably be interesting in reading some flavour text relating to them - but their textboxes are usually pretty full.
>
+1
To be fair out of interesting vampires that have no special abilities are:
-Black Wallace (6 cap)
-Lord Vauxhall (7 cap)
-Don Cerro (7 cap)
Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
> Borrowing quotes from (out of copyright) published works is a pain in the ass, and coming up with something interesting, unique or witty for each empty vampire to say is just going to get dull. In particular, there are a lot of empty vampires who are small-medium and generally won't be interesting vampires in the grand scheme of things...
>
If the card is not interesting than it's a bad card. Flavour text is essential on some random 3-cap dork, not so much on something like Morel.
You obviously don't use quotes from random books and you don't need something "witty". Take mtg cards as an example - in some sets they use it too tell the story (combining all cards), in some - to introduce the setting, in some - to add theme.
Each vampire is unique personality. Even just showing it will make play experience much deeper.
NC Russia
> elotar wrote:
> For example great text on shitty 0/3 creature.
> www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/visions/3687-phyrexian-walker
>
The artwork in your example is landscape — hence the large amount of spare space.
We don't have that issue with vampires as the artwork is portrait and occupies the vast amount of space. I much rather have more space for artwork than a large block of confusing noisy random text.
Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook
> Lech wrote:
>
> > jamesatzephyr wrote:
> >
> > > elotar wrote:
> > > Flavour text is not an unnesesary information, it's the way to make boring cards (like most vampires without abilities) into something interesting.
> > >
> > >
> > I'd really, really, really rather not have flavour text on 'empty' vampires. Borrowing quotes from (out of copyright) published works is a pain in the ass, and coming up with something interesting, unique or witty for each empty vampire to say is just going to get dull. In particular, there are a lot of empty vampires who are small-medium and generally won't be interesting vampires in the grand scheme of things - not big enough to have a fun special ability, but not hamstrung with a disability. Just some 3 cap with 2 disciplines, or whatever. That's going to get nauseatingly dull, fast.
> >
> > Things is, the vampires who might have interesting flavour text potential are pretty much going to be the ones who already have very full text boxes. Arika? Anson? Count Germaine? Xipe Totec? Cyble? Enkidu? Saulot? I'd probably be interesting in reading some flavour text relating to them - but their textboxes are usually pretty full.
> >
> +1
>
> To be fair out of interesting vampires that have no special abilities are:
> -Black Wallace (6 cap)
> -Lord Vauxhall (7 cap)
> -Don Cerro (7 cap)
>
So, because interesting vampire can't have flavortext, none shall have it ?
What kind of argument is that ?
Besides, there's no need, for long quote. Look at what was done on Android : Netrunner .
Few words are all it takes to give some card a little more interest.
And even if you don't like flavortext, it's not like we are removing anything from the card to put them...
I'm against flavor text on vampires.
In order to add flavor text that isn't disrupting:
1/ you must have some card text. If there isn't any cardtext and only flavor text, players are misguided in thinking the vampire has some special text.
2/ The card text must not be too long, otherwise it reduces the size font which makes the card harder to read
3/ vampire text box isn't large enough to accomodate card text and flavor text, and the card text must use a much space as possible not to be written too small.
So the only cases where I consider flavor text to be acceptable is when you have some card text that is a few lines long, and flavor text that is shorter (a sentence for instance). And that would happen only on library cards.
Also, I think you learn more about vampire background on library cards since there are a lot more of them (for instance, you could have three flavor texts about Enkidu describing it better than one short piece on his card).
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
> 1/ If there isn't any cardtext and only flavor text, players are misguided in thinking the vampire has some special text.
>
It's a lie. If you are using different italized font for FT nobody will confuse it with rules text.
NC Russia
> Ke. wrote:
> The artwork in your example is landscape — hence the large amount of spare space.
>
www.vekn.net/forum/generic-v-tes-discussion/75121-crypt-card-redesign?start=96
> Ke. wrote:
> I much rather have more space for artwork than a large block of confusing noisy random text.
>
You are not making cards for yourself. There are large number of people who think otherwise and is just plain wrong to ignore them when in costs you nothing (you got empty text box).
NC Russia
> elotar wrote:
> If the card is not interesting than it's a bad card.
>
A card can be interesting from the point of a Methuselah building a deck, without the underlying vampire having anything remotely notable, interesting or unique about the vampire's personality.
> elotar wrote:
> Flavour text is essential on some random 3-cap dork, not so much on something like Morel.
>
If flavour text is essential on vampires, could you explain how V:TES has managed to survive 20 years without it? I do not think "essential" means what you think it means.
> elotar wrote:
> You obviously don't use quotes from random books and you don't need something "witty".
>
I would note that I said: " something interesting, unique or witty". Something could be interesting, but not witty. It could be unique, but not witty.
> elotar wrote:
> Take mtg cards as an example - in some sets they use it too tell the story (combining all cards), in some - to introduce the setting, in some - to add theme.
>
And it's about as deep and satisfying as trying to write a story on Twitter. My experience of such card text is that, by and large, it's dreadful doggerel, devoid of merit.
> elotar wrote:
> Each vampire is unique personality.
>
I think you mean "I want each vampire to be a unique personality", which is a very different thing.
I would much rather the Design Team created vampires that filled play needs, rather than having to worry about whether this Ventrue antitribu is distinct in personality, motivation, goals, and background from this other Ventrue antitribu that already exists.
> elotar wrote:
>
> > Ke. wrote:
> > You are not making cards for yourself. There are large number of people who think otherwise and is just plain wrong to ignore them when in costs you nothing (you got empty text box).
> >
> You (and your friends that that agree with you) do not represent "large number of people" either. And it is plain wrong to push your opinion by claiming that you are the spokesperson for a big majority.
>
Finnish Politics!
> elotar wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> > 1/ If there isn't any cardtext and only flavor text, players are misguided in thinking the vampire has some special text.
> >
> It's a lie. If you are using different italized font for FT nobody will confuse it with rules text.
>
I mean when you see the card from the other side of the table.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> elotar wrote:
> You are not making cards for yourself.
>
Correct. However my opinion is just as valid as everyone elses.
Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook
> Ankha wrote:
> I mean when you see the card from the other side of the table.
>
Yes, looking cross table and seeing a vampire with a wall of text is likely to raise questions: "What does he do again?", "Oh nothing. it's just a wall of flavour text".
It's not like something is being removed here; Vampires have never had flavour text, Why introduce it? It increase workload by requiring someone to edit and source flavour text for 300+ vampires and adds noise to an already complex game.
It makes a lot sense that a vampire with a "special" looks different to a generic vampire. There's something different about them; this is a indirect way of highlighting that difference.
Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook
> Lönkka wrote:
> You (and your friends that that agree with you) do not represent "large number of people" either. And it is plain wrong to push your opinion by claiming that you are the spokesperson for a big majority.
>
Here are several of my "friends" (using mtg as example):
14400 results in mtg savlation forums: www.google.ru/search?q=mtg+flavour+text+site:www.mtgsalvation.com&newwindow=1&biw=1152&bih=529&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjA7Pnmz4XPAhWJliwKHV2SAXMQrQIISygEMAo
13200 results on reddit:
www.google.ru/search?q=mtg+flavour+text+site:www.mtgsalvation.com&newwindow=1&biw=1152&bih=529&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjA7Pnmz4XPAhWJliwKHV2SAXMQrQIISygEMAo#newwindow=1&q=mtg+flavour+text+site:www.reddit.com
Site dedicated just to flavour text:
magicalflavor.tumblr.com/
celjaded: www.celjaded.com/top-20-magic-the-gathering-flavour-text/
967 from youtube:
www.google.ru/search?q=mtg+flavour+text+site:www.mtgsalvation.com&newwindow=1&biw=1152&bih=529&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjA7Pnmz4XPAhWJliwKHV2SAXMQrQIISygEMAo#newwindow=1&q=mtg+flavour+text+site:www.youtube.com
OK, and 383 000 from google:
www.google.ru/search?q=mtg+flavour+text&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=Q2nUV-uWIsipsgGxkIIo#newwindow=1&q=mtg+flavour+text+
It's kind of pointless to have discussion when one side desided to ignore reality.
NC Russia
> Ke. wrote:
> Why introduce it?
>
Because it's cool. It's the only reason to do anything and it trumps any objections (God save me from discussions of cross table apperance of vampire with a text, when really even picture is not clearly recognized under pile of blood counters).
NC Russia
> elotar wrote:
>
> > Lönkka wrote:
> > You (and your friends that that agree with you) do not represent "large number of people" either. And it is plain wrong to push your opinion by claiming that you are the spokesperson for a big majority.
> >
> Here are several of my "friends" (using mtg as example):
>
> 14400 results in mtg savlation forums: www.google.ru/search?q=mtg+flavour+text+site:www.mtgsalvation.com&newwindow=1&biw=1152&bih=529&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjA7Pnmz4XPAhWJliwKHV2SAXMQrQIISygEMAo
>
> 13200 results on reddit:
> www.google.ru/search?q=mtg+flavour+text+site:www.mtgsalvation.com&newwindow=1&biw=1152&bih=529&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjA7Pnmz4XPAhWJliwKHV2SAXMQrQIISygEMAo#newwindow=1&q=mtg+flavour+text+site:www.reddit.com
>
> Site dedicated just to flavour text:
> magicalflavor.tumblr.com/
>
> celjaded: www.celjaded.com/top-20-magic-the-gathering-flavour-text/
>
> 967 from youtube:
> www.google.ru/search?q=mtg+flavour+text+site:www.mtgsalvation.com&newwindow=1&biw=1152&bih=529&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjA7Pnmz4XPAhWJliwKHV2SAXMQrQIISygEMAo#newwindow=1&q=mtg+flavour+text+site:www.youtube.com
>
> OK, and 383 000 from google:
> www.google.ru/search?q=mtg+flavour+text&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=Q2nUV-uWIsipsgGxkIIo#newwindow=1&q=mtg+flavour+text+
>
> It's kind of pointless to have discussion when one side desided to ignore reality.
>
Interesting... However VTES has been around nearly as long as MtG and there are no sites dedicated to flavour text nor is the contents and context of flavour text discussed anywhere. Possibly because VTES already has a rich theme setting in WoD and there's plenty of actual source material to read.
To me your "evidence" clearly tells me that VTES players don't care about flavour text, otherwise we should see equivalent sites and forum threads dedicated to flavour text.
-1 Strength
> GreyB wrote:
>
> > elotar wrote:
> >
> > Interesting... However VTES has been around nearly as long as MtG and there are no sites dedicated to flavour text nor is the contents and context of flavour text discussed anywhere. Possibly because VTES already has a rich theme setting in WoD and there's plenty of actual source material to read.
> >
> > To me your "evidence" clearly tells me that VTES players don't care about flavour text, otherwise we should see equivalent sites and forum threads dedicated to flavour text.
> >
> Am, maybe because there are no flavour text on most of the cards, as well as completely terrible on those where there is.
>
NC Russia
> elotar wrote:
> Am, maybe because there are no flavour text on most of the cards, as well as completely terrible on those where there is. [citation needed]
>
for what it's worth, I think that GreyB has a convincing point: Flavor text might not be as important to Vtes players as it is with Magic players owing to the volumes and volumes of background material.
While I always appreciate enthusiasm, I sometimes have a hard time wrapping my head around some of the assertions you make.
edit: Also, Ke, in the Gangrel Antitribu vamp you posted a few pages back, the Clan Icon looks... not okay still.
> self wrote:
> Also, Ke, in the Gangrel Antitribu vamp you posted a few pages back, the Clan Icon looks... not okay still.
>
Yep; I still need to apply the icons you created — is on the agenda.
Just taking a break from this for a bit now.
Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook
> self wrote:
>
> While I always appreciate enthusiasm, I sometimes have a hard time wrapping my head around some of the assertions you make.[/i]
>
I'm not making any assertions. I'm showing how "the question" is executed by most popular ccg of all time in which every smallest aspect of design are deeply analized.
Unfounded assertions is the way "other side" is having discussion.
By the way, if everibody have forgotten, the topic of flavour text was raised because Ke was having empty boxes, so he started to feel them with illogical positioning of sect name and duplicating clan icon with written clan name.
NC Russia
> elotar wrote:
> every smallest aspect of design are deeply analized..
>
*titter*
Indeed...
Best reason for not to do this is the sheer amount of time needed for looking up, editing, typing and inserting the quotes. Easy for you to demand them if Someone Else TM is expected to do the actual hard labor...
Second best reason not to include them was presented by Ankha, mass of text from other end of the table looks as if there are some special abilities which would just slow the game down.
So keep on analizing buddy!
Finnish Politics!
> elotar wrote:
> By the way, if everibody have forgotten, the topic of flavour text was raised because Ke was having empty boxes, so he started to feel them with illogical positioning of sect name and duplicating clan icon with written clan name.
>
Maybe the best way to deal with empty boxes is to leave them ...empty
Probably nothing says "no special abilities" as clearly as empty box.
Another solution is to stay with one box and just bold some info as it's in current crypt cards. This will leave more space for picture.
> elotar wrote:
> By the way, if everibody have forgotten, the topic of flavour text was raised because Ke was having empty boxes, so he started to feel them with illogical positioning of sect name and duplicating clan icon with written clan name.
>
When I first suggested flavor text on vampire, it was, indeed, to solve the issue when a vampire would have an empty "white box".
That said, since the latest layout seems to be consensual (with the black box dedicated to clan name and group only), the need for it is no more.
Though I'm firmly in favor of flavor text on crypt card, I don't think this debate is gonna be very productive. Mainly because, in the end, it's only a matter of personal taste.
So shouldn't we focus on more technical problem ? ( Like some Imbued cards for instance ... B) )
> 666Raziel wrote:
>
> > elotar wrote:
> > By the way, if everibody have forgotten, the topic of flavour text was raised because Ke was having empty boxes, so he started to feel them with illogical positioning of sect name and duplicating clan icon with written clan name.
> >
> When I first suggested flavor text on vampire, it was, indeed, to solve the issue when a vampire would have an empty "white box".
>
> That said, since the latest layout seems to be consensual (with the black box dedicated to clan name and group only), the need for it is no more.
>
I'm not consenting to it at all. It still does not address the fundamental problems with the crypt text templating and instead creates additional problems.
New crypt text templating proposal:
Single, white text box
Fixed-size text box
Bold, before colon: Sect, title
Not-bold, after colon: Special rules
Bold, after not-bold special rules: keywords, terms, attributes
For example:
Sabbat: If Kazimir blocks an action, he gets an optional press in the resulting combat. Black Hand Seraph.
> BenPeal wrote:
> I'm not consenting to it at all. It still does not address the fundamental problems with the crypt text templating and instead creates additional problems.
>
> New crypt text templating proposal:
>
> Single, white text box
> Fixed-size text box
> Bold, before colon: Sect, title
> Not-bold, after colon: Special rules
> Bold, after not-bold special rules: keywords, terms, attributes
>
> For example:
>
> Sabbat: If Kazimir blocks an action, he gets an optional press in the resulting combat. Black Hand Seraph.
>
Well, to be honest, with all the rant about flavor text, I'm not sure to remember what are those problems.
Anyway, first, I suggest that we all stick to the same vampire for the sake of better comparison.
In my opinion, Jamal is a great candidate since he has everything : title, multiple traits, "+X" bonus and special rules.
That said, I have 2 remarks about your latest proposal.
1) I don't see why it should be exclusive of a black box dedicated only to clan name and grouping ?
2) sorry to say it like that but where is that an improvement of the current pattern ? You are creating all this shenanigans about "bold before / bold after", whereas there's no need to separate those keyword.
What's wrong with :
{Black box} Assamite. Group 5
Independent. 2 votes (titled). Blood cursed. Redlist : Jamal gets +1 strength in combat with allies and Camarilla vampires. +1 bleed.
Or in your case :
{Black box} Tzimisce. Group 3
Sabbat. Black Hand. Seraph : If Kazimir blocks an action, he gets an optional press in the resulting combat.
> 666Raziel wrote:
>
> > BenPeal wrote:
> > I'm not consenting to it at all. It still does not address the fundamental problems with the crypt text templating and instead creates additional problems.
> >
> > New crypt text templating proposal:
> >
> > Single, white text box
> > Fixed-size text box
> > Bold, before colon: Sect, title
> > Not-bold, after colon: Special rules
> > Bold, after not-bold special rules: keywords, terms, attributes
> >
> > For example:
> >
> > Sabbat: If Kazimir blocks an action, he gets an optional press in the resulting combat. Black Hand Seraph.
> >
> Well, to be honest, with all the rant about flavor text, I'm not sure to remember what are those problems.
>
> Anyway, first, I suggest that we all stick to the same vampire for the sake of better comparison.
> In my opinion, Jamal is a great candidate since he has everything : title, multiple traits, "+X" bonus and special rules.
>
I'm happy to see plenty of examples so we potentially catch outliers.
> That said, I have 2 remarks about your latest proposal.
> 1) I don't see why it should be exclusive of a black box dedicated only to clan name and grouping ?
>
Because there's no need to display the clan information in two different places on the card. The only reason why Ke included the clan name in the black box is because he realized that the black box could potentially be empty. The clan information is already displayed via the clan icon, so get rid of the black box and the need to fill it is gone.
> 2) sorry to say it like that but where is that an improvement of the current pattern ? You are creating all this shenanigans about "bold before / bold after", whereas there's no need to separate those keyword.
>
> What's wrong with :
>
> {Black box} Assamite. Group 5
> Independent. 2 votes (titled). Blood cursed. Redlist : Jamal gets +1 strength in combat with allies and Camarilla vampires. +1 bleed.
>
That idea was already discussed internally by the Rules Team and rejected more than a year ago. The issue is clarity. Bold text is used to highlight and distinguish certain items. In a string of bold text, that aspect gets somewhat lost.
What Ke is attempting to do with his two-box layout proposal is the same idea - highlighting and distinguishing certain items. You can modify your question to ask, "Why doesn't all sect, title, keyword, term, and attribute information go in the black box?" The answer is the same: to preserve the distinction and clarity of specific items.
> BenPeal wrote:
> New crypt text templating proposal:
>
> Single, white text box
> Fixed-size text box
> Bold, before colon: Sect, title
> Not-bold, after colon: Special rules
> Bold, after not-bold special rules: keywords, terms, attributes
>
> For example:
> Sabbat: If Kazimir blocks an action, he gets an optional press in the resulting combat. Black Hand Seraph.
>
+1
I seen no reason for adding second box
> BenPeal wrote:
> The only reason why Ke included the clan name in the black box is because he realized that the black box could potentially be empty.
>
This is not the case.
I've included the clan name for new players — 7.5% of all cards refer to clan by name without a clan icon.
You must keep new players in mind — just because you've been playing for 20+ years and recognise the clan icons instantly; it doesn't mean new players do.
If we want to make the game more accessible to new players (and I hope we do), then this is something to consider in the same manner as replacing cryptic card icons with clear words. It allows new players to easily match the 7.5% of cards without clan icons and also learn the clan names as they go...
Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook
> BenPeal wrote:
> Bold, before colon: Sect, title
> Not-bold, after colon: Special rules
> Bold, after not-bold special rules: keywords, terms, attributes
>
I think this is a good middle ground. Pretty much the "bold" labelled images here:
www.vekn.net/forum/generic-v-tes-discussion/75121-crypt-card-redesign?start=54#78086
Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook
> Ke. wrote:
>
> > BenPeal wrote:
> > The only reason why Ke included the clan name in the black box is because he realized that the black box could potentially be empty.
> >
> This is not the case.
>
> I've included the clan name for new players — 7.5% of all cards refer to clan by name without a clan icon.
>
> You must keep new players in mind — just because you've been playing for 20+ years and recognise the clan icons instantly; it doesn't mean new players do.
>
> If we want to make the game more accessible to new players (and I hope we do), then this is something to consider in the same manner as replacing cryptic card icons with clear words. It allows new players to easily match the 7.5% of cards without clan icons and also learn the clan names as they go...
>
I admire all the work you and everybody else are putting in to making the cards more intelligible, but putting redundant information on cards is just not a good idea. The clan Icons are clearly explained in the rulebook. Let the rulebook do it's job by explaining the basics like clan and discipline symbols.
> Ke. wrote:
>
> > BenPeal wrote:
> > The only reason why Ke included the clan name in the black box is because he realized that the black box could potentially be empty.
> >
> This is not the case.
>
You have made it very clear twice in this thread that you sought to resolve the design problem of what to do when the vampire has no text. You have created a hole to fill. Remove the hole and there becomes no need to fill it.
With regards to cards that refer to a clan without also providing the clan icon, the Rules Team has already addressed that issue by requiring the inclusion of both pieces of information in the text templating. We've been using that templating in all of the VEKN sets. If we can get this game back in print, we'll go back and reprint cards using proper templating.
> Ke. wrote:
> I think this is a good middle ground.
>
In case it hasn't been clear from the tone and content of what I've written, I'm completely uninterested in middle ground solutions. This is a foundation that must be laid properly. There's a reason why "design by committee" is a slur.
I recognize and appreciate the amount of work you've put into this, and I get the feeling you're frustrated by the prospect of having to do a lot more work to come up with something that works properly. The reality is that there's still a lot of work to be done. From my experience with the Design Team and from watching the enormous amount of work the Rules Team is doing with overhauling the text templating of the game, I know that there are no shortcuts.
> BenPeal wrote:
> You have made it very clear twice in this thread that you sought to resolve the design problem of what to do when the vampire has no text. You have created a hole to fill. Remove the hole and there becomes no need to fill it.
>
I stated it "also" solves a design issue; it was never the sole reason. Equally; that was in response to suggestions the sect should be moved to the black bar.
The black bar provides a clear location for clan name and group. The clan name is helpful for new players and doesn't interfere with the current card text (separated by design).
Asides from the fact that it is a change; please advise what the negative impact is?
Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook
> Ke. wrote:
> Asides from the fact that it is a change; please advise what the negative impact is?
>
You're occupying card space with redundant information in the attempt to address an issue that is unrelated to crypt cards and that has already been addressed. That's card space that can be used for increasing the font size for improved readibility - something which can help all players and not just new ones.
> BenPeal wrote:
> I get the feeling you're frustrated by the prospect of having to do a lot more work to come up with something that works properly.
>
Your feeling is incorrect; poor assumption.
I am in no way am I frustrated by the amount of work involved — if anything the sheer scale of the task at hand and what has already been accomplished shows this.
The main thing that frustrates me is fear of and resistance to change.
Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook
Further issues with traits, attributes, keywords, and terms:
Keyword: Not defined or referenced in the rulebook. It's a general term in gaming.
Trait: Only referenced in the rulebook in the rules for the special term Vulnerability. The only trait is Cold Iron.
Attribute: Clan and discipline symbols go in the attribute bar of a crypt card. Attribute is also referenced in the rules for Anarch vampires - the only attribute is Anarch.
Term: Terms are the proposed results of a successful referendum. Special terms are (traits/attributes/keywords/terms) that have special rules associated with them in the rulebook.
All other (traits/attributes/keywords/terms) such as Black Hand, Seraph, mortal, ghoul, animal, and Gehenna are not defined in the rulebook as being a trait, attribute, keyword, or term. We've clearly gotten along just fine without such a definition, but from a hard-coding perspective, it would be good to define them.
I propose the following terminology:
Keyword: Remains not defined in the rules. Just a general term in gaming.
Atttibute: Only refers to the attribute bar, where clan, discipline, and Advanced icons are displayed.
Terms: Only refers to the proposed result of a successful referendum.
Trait: All of the keywords, such as Black Hand, Seraph, mortal, ghoul, animal and Gehenna. Also includes "special traits", which are those listed in the "special terms" section of the rulebook (simply renaming "special term" to "special trait").
Note that by these definitions, things like "+1 strength" and "+1 intercept" are not traits. They remain abilities provided to a vampire in its card text.
> BenPeal wrote:
> I propose the following terminology:
>
> Keyword: Remains not defined in the rules. Just a general term in gaming.
> Atttibute: Only refers to the attribute bar, where clan, discipline, and Advanced icons are displayed.
> Terms: Only refers to the proposed result of a successful referendum.
> Trait: All of the keywords, such as Black Hand, Seraph, mortal, ghoul, animal and Gehenna. Also includes "special traits", which are those listed in the "special terms" section of the rulebook (simply renaming "special term" to "special trait").
>
> Note that by these definitions, things like "+1 strength" and "+1 intercept" are not traits. They remain abilities provided to a vampire in its card text.
>
Perhaps things like "+1 strength" and "+1 intercept" could be defined as "simple abilities". Thoughts?
> BenPeal wrote:
> I propose the following terminology:
>
> Keyword: Remains not defined in the rules. Just a general term in gaming.
> Atttibute: Only refers to the attribute bar, where clan, discipline, and Advanced icons are displayed.
> Terms: Only refers to the proposed result of a successful referendum.
> Trait: All of the keywords, such as Black Hand, Seraph, mortal, ghoul, animal and Gehenna. Also includes "special traits", which are those listed in the "special terms" section of the rulebook (simply renaming "special term" to "special trait").
>
> Note that by these definitions, things like "+1 strength" and "+1 intercept" are not traits. They remain abilities provided to a vampire in its card text.
>
The terminology works for me.
> BenPeal wrote:
> Perhaps things like "+1 strength" and "+1 intercept" could be defined as "simple abilities". Thoughts?
>
Compare +1 stealth. X gets +1 stealth on bleed actions. While he is ready, changelings cost you 1 less pool.
The two first are "unconditional" (they always apply). The third one has a condition ("While he is ready").
I'm not sure that every gradation of abilities should be nicknamed not handled differently, even though it's tempting for the "+1 stealth".
There's another thing to consider: if "+1 stealth." is displayed differently (eg. in bold), what about allies that have "+1 stealth"?
So far, sect, clans and titles are unique characteristics of vampires. That could be one of the reason why they are displayed in bold.
Traits apply to vampires, allies, retainer, equipment ("Gun"), events ("Gehenna"), political actions ("Blood hunt.") If there is a display rule for traits, it should take this into consideration.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> BenPeal wrote:
>
> > BenPeal wrote:
> > I propose the following terminology:
> >
> > Keyword: Remains not defined in the rules. Just a general term in gaming.
> > Atttibute: Only refers to the attribute bar, where clan, discipline, and Advanced icons are displayed.
> > Terms: Only refers to the proposed result of a successful referendum.
> > Trait: All of the keywords, such as Black Hand, Seraph, mortal, ghoul, animal and Gehenna. Also includes "special traits", which are those listed in the "special terms" section of the rulebook (simply renaming "special term" to "special trait").
> >
> > Note that by these definitions, things like "+1 strength" and "+1 intercept" are not traits. They remain abilities provided to a vampire in its card text.
> >
> Perhaps things like "+1 strength" and "+1 intercept" could be defined as "simple abilities". Thoughts?
>
Actually, I always thought it was already the case
.
Nonetheless, this is still unnecessary complicated to me. Why do you need to create categories for things that have nothing to do together and are already defined separately ?
Besides, what's the point of dissociating traits and keyword, when you use keyword in trait's definition ?
I think we only need 1 word. Call it trait, keyword or attribute, but in the end they are all the same. It refers to nominal information likely to generate game interaction.
Thus game information on crypt cards are constituted of :
- Trait/keyword/attribute
- Abilities
- Disciplines/Nondisciplinesthatworksjustlikedisciplines/Virtues
Along with name and grouping.
> 666Raziel wrote:
> Actually, I always thought it was already the case
>
> Nonetheless, this is still unnecessary complicated to me. Why do you need to create categories for things that have nothing to do together and are already defined separately ?
>
Because it isn't "already the case" and things are mixed up in the rulebook, leading to complication.
The other thing is that if we get a clear picture of how a trait and ability are different, we may find out a rule to display them in a logical way in the textbox.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
> The other thing is that if we get a clear picture of how a trait and ability are different, we may find out a rule to display them in a logical way in the textbox.
>
Like I said :
Abilities = sentences. (and +X bonus count as a sentence, since it's only the condensed form of "Y has +X.")
Trait = word(s).
> 666Raziel wrote:
>
> > BenPeal wrote:
> >
> > > BenPeal wrote:
> > > I propose the following terminology:
> > >
> > > Keyword: Remains not defined in the rules. Just a general term in gaming.
> > > Atttibute: Only refers to the attribute bar, where clan, discipline, and Advanced icons are displayed.
> > > Terms: Only refers to the proposed result of a successful referendum.
> > > Trait: All of the keywords, such as Black Hand, Seraph, mortal, ghoul, animal and Gehenna. Also includes "special traits", which are those listed in the "special terms" section of the rulebook (simply renaming "special term" to "special trait").
> > >
> > > Note that by these definitions, things like "+1 strength" and "+1 intercept" are not traits. They remain abilities provided to a vampire in its card text.
> > >
> > >
> > Perhaps things like "+1 strength" and "+1 intercept" could be defined as "simple abilities". Thoughts?
> >
> Actually, I always thought it was already the case
>
It is not already the case.
.
>
> Nonetheless, this is still unnecessary complicated to me. Why do you need to create categories for things that have nothing to do together and are already defined separately ?
>
They're not already properly defined, which is why I'm proposing definitions.
> Besides, what's the point of dissociating traits and keyword, when you use keyword in trait's definition?
>
It was the easiest way in the time I had before I went to lunch to define "trait" without using the words "term" or "attribute".
> I think we only need 1 word. Call it trait, keyword or attribute, but in the end they are all the same. It refers to nominal information likely to generate game interaction.
>
> Thus game information on crypt cards are constituted of :
> - Trait/keyword/attribute
> - Abilities
> - Disciplines/Nondisciplinesthatworksjustlikedisciplines/Virtues
> Along with name and grouping.
>
That's what I want as well. Er, except I'm not sure whether Flight should be simply a trait in the crypt text box with its accompanying symbol, or whether the Flight symbol should go in the attribute bar. Thoughts?
> BenPeal wrote:
> That's what I want as well. Er, except I'm not sure whether Flight should be simply a trait in the crypt text box with its accompanying symbol, or whether the Flight symbol should go in the attribute bar. Thoughts?
>
Personally, I think that the Flight Icon is something we should get rid of. Just keep the word in the crypt textbox (in the same template as any other traits) and add "Requires a minion with Flight" on library cards.
(BTW, I think something similar should be done about Striga and Malefica. In my opinion they should have been worded like Aye and Orun.)
> 666Raziel wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> > The other thing is that if we get a clear picture of how a trait and ability are different, we may find out a rule to display them in a logical way in the textbox.
> >
> Like I said :
>
> Abilities = sentences. (and +X bonus count as a sentence, since it's only the condensed form of "Y has +X.")
>
> Trait = word(s).
>
Sorry if I'm hammering , but what I like about my proposition is that it works very nice with Ke's layout.
Traits goes in the black box (and we now have a good reason tu fully write the clan's name there).
Abilities goes in the white box.
(As for vampire without abilities ... well, so far we haven't seen how it would look if a vampire had only a black box or an empty white box...)
About grouping, I thought the number could be added to the clan icon. Like that, we keep the historical position and displaying of the clan's icon, but we merge it with deckbuilding information. (Which is now remove from gametext space.)
EDIT : this would also be consistent to many library cards since most of them have traits in the black box and abilities in the white one.
> 666Raziel wrote:
> Sorry if I'm hammering , but what I like about my proposition is that it works very nice with Ke's layout.
>
> Traits goes in the black box (and we now have a good reason tu fully write the clan's name there).
>
In addition to the other problems I'm mentioned with the idea for a second text box, here's another: You're pre-filling the text space with the clan name, which reduces the avaialble space. From a card design perspective, we have less space to work with, especially with clan names like "Follower of Set" and "Daughter of Cacophony". I have a similar frustration with "Cold Iron Vulnerability" and "She cannot play cards that require Celerity ." They eat up text space and restrict the abilty to be creative with specials.
On top of it, the black box reduces the amount of text space available in the white box, regardless of how much text is used in the black box. The space is much more efficiently used with a single text box, and that allows us to use a larger font for improved readibility.
For example, look at the Bold Traits version of Ur-Shulgi:
dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17269164/vtes/layout/text-urshulgi.jpg
There's effectively a blank bar on top of the white text box. Eliminate that, increase the white text box space to include the space occupied by the black bar, and increase the font size.
> BenPeal wrote:
> Further issues with traits, attributes, keywords, and terms:
>
> Keyword: Not defined or referenced in the rulebook. It's a general term in gaming.
> Trait: Only referenced in the rulebook in the rules for the special term Vulnerability. The only trait is Cold Iron.
> Attribute: Clan and discipline symbols go in the attribute bar of a crypt card. Attribute is also referenced in the rules for Anarch vampires - the only attribute is Anarch.
> Term: Terms are the proposed results of a successful referendum. Special terms are (traits/attributes/keywords/terms) that have special rules associated with them in the rulebook.
>
> All other (traits/attributes/keywords/terms) such as Black Hand, Seraph, mortal, ghoul, animal, and Gehenna are not defined in the rulebook as being a trait, attribute, keyword, or term. We've clearly gotten along just fine without such a definition, but from a hard-coding perspective, it would be good to define them.
>
I am so glad somebody mentioned the rulebook in this thread. In my mind, trying to come up with a better card layout before giving the rulebook a heavy edit is putting the cart well ahead of the horse. I am not very knowledgeable when it comes to CCGs (I only play VTES), but my understanding is that a CCG comprises a rulebook that codifies the rules and cards with text that essentially "breaks" those rules. With that idea in mind, it is not only "good" to define the terms of the game from a hard-coding perspective, it's absolutely essential. The rulebook needs a heavy edit before anything else can be done. Please note that a "heavy edit" is not an overhaul of the rules. It is taking the existing rules and clarifying them better in the rulebook. I believe this is what the rules team is currently doing by coming up with keywords. When the rules team is done, the rulebook and all card text should go through a quality assurance (QA) process to ensure that all text on cards match up with what is outlined in the rulebook/detailed play summary/card rulings, and that everything makes sense. Then we can worry about card layout. Then another QA process needs to happen to ensure that the card layout optimizes the information on the card. From my perspective, it is pretty clear that VTES never went through a proper QA process, and that is why we have a number of the problems that we have today.
I realize this process is a lot of time-consuming work. But if we’re not looking for middle-ground solutions, this is the way to go.
> 666Raziel wrote:
>
> EDIT : this would also be consistent to many library cards since most of them have traits in the black box and abilities in the white one.
>
Be careful about talking about consistency between library cards and crypt cards, because they are totally different. For instance, in the current Ke's layout, the black box of library cards contain also requirements, or "do not replace" clauses that have nothing to do with traits.
Furthermore, crypt cards and library cards don't share traits (no vampire is "Gun." and no library card is "Black Hand").
Some library requirements are indeed linked to traits ("Requires a Black Hand vampire"), but some others are linked to capacity for instance, that is not a trait.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> BenPeal wrote:
> I propose the following terminology:
>
> Keyword: Remains not defined in the rules. Just a general term in gaming.
>
I disagree. Not everybody who is introduced to VTES is familiar with general gaming terms. It would take < 50 characters to define what a keyword is in the rulebook. Define it. Especially if the rulebook is eventually going to repeatedly use the word "keyword" in a future iteration.
> BenPeal wrote:
> Perhaps things like "+1 strength" and "+1 intercept" could be defined as "simple abilities". Thoughts?
>
That's opening a can of worms. Seeds of Corruption was banned because the term "special ability" was too broadly applicable and not defined appropriately in the rulebook. The same thing is bound to happen with a broad term like "simple ability." If sticking to source material, merits and flaws might work. "Merit (+1 stealth)". "Flaw (-1 strength)".
> TwoRazorReign wrote:
>
> > BenPeal wrote:
> > I propose the following terminology:
> >
> > Keyword: Remains not defined in the rules. Just a general term in gaming.
> >
> I disagree. Not everybody who is introduced to VTES is familiar with general gaming terms. It would take < 50 characters to define what a keyword is in the rulebook. Define it. Especially if the rulebook is eventually going to repeatedly use the word "keyword" in a future iteration.
>
> > BenPeal wrote:
> > Perhaps things like "+1 strength" and "+1 intercept" could be defined as "simple abilities". Thoughts?
> >
> That's opening a can of worms. Seeds of Corruption was banned because the term "special ability" was too broadly applicable and not defined appropriately in the rulebook. The same thing is bound to happen with a broad term like "simple ability." If sticking to source material, merits and flaws might work. "Merit (+1 stealth)". "Flaw (-1 strength)".
>
Is the "can't have equipment" a merit or a flaw? It prevents you from using a Kevlar Vest, but it also protects you from a Wooden Stake.
It makes no sense indicating whether an ability is positive or negative (especially for only one card).
But I agree (see my previous post) that distinguishing "simple" abilities is not necessarily a good idea, rule-wise at least.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> TwoRazorReign wrote:
>
> > BenPeal wrote:
> > I propose the following terminology:
> >
> > Keyword: Remains not defined in the rules. Just a general term in gaming.
> >
> I disagree. Not everybody who is introduced to VTES is familiar with general gaming terms. It would take < 50 characters to define what a keyword is in the rulebook. Define it. Especially if the rulebook is eventually going to repeatedly use the word "keyword" in a future iteration.
>
Ah, I meant to say that "keyword" remains undefined and not used anywhere in the game at all. I believe that is currently the case. Rather than have "keyword" and "trait", we can just have "trait" defined.
> BenPeal wrote:
> In addition to the other problems I'm mentioned with the idea for a second text box, here's another: You're pre-filling the text space with the clan name, which reduces the avaialble space. From a card design perspective, we have less space to work with, especially with clan names like "Follower of Set" and "Daughter of Cacophony". I have a similar frustration with "Cold Iron Vulnerability" and "She cannot play cards that require Celerity ." They eat up text space and restrict the abilty to be creative with specials.
>
As I think about this issue more, I'm reminded of a change the Rules Team made with crypt templating: Eliminating the word "Advanced" from Advanced crypt cards and only using the Advanced icon (). Crypt text space is already at a premium, and it's especially problematic for Advanced crypt cards with merged text. Eliminating the word "Advanced" and only using the icon saves a small chunk of valuable space.
Looking at Advanced vamps from Ke's current layout, we have Kemintiri:
amaranth.vtes.co.nz/cardimages/kemintiriadv.jpg
Again, drop the black box. Move the disciplines down and put the Advanced icon in its usual spot.
Good examples of how eliminating the black box can provide room to increase the font size for readibility:
amaranth.vtes.co.nz/cardimages/alfredbenezriadv.jpg
amaranth.vtes.co.nz/cardimages/appoloniusadv.jpg
amaranth.vtes.co.nz/cardimages/brunhildeadv.jpg
amaranth.vtes.co.nz/cardimages/feroxtherocklordadv.jpg
(note: It appears that titles in merged text are not bolded.)
(note: oooo...I like that Gangrel clan border.)
Hmmm...Cesewayo presents a crowding issue:
amaranth.vtes.co.nz/cardimages/cesewayoadv.jpg
In Cesewayo's case, his text might need to be a point smaller to allow for the Advanced icon, even with the black box removed.
Ooof...the worst case appears to be Helena:
amaranth.vtes.co.nz/cardimages/helenaadv.jpg
That's a really tight squeeze. If the black box is removed, the Advanced icon should still fit. However, if we're looking for a fixed text box size (which I really want), then the text box either is set to that size or we just treat Helena Adv. as a one-off special case. It's the result of extending the text box into the attribute bar.
Speaking of which, has anyone tested this layout using sleeves with holograms in the bottom left corner? The attribute bar template was adjusted after Camarilla Edition such that the disciplines were raised a bit higher to prevent holograms on sleeves from covering up disciplines. I'm curious as to whether there are similar issues with covering up text.
What if we use the opportunity of new layout to make a profound reform of how Advanced and Merged work ?
What if Advanced card had two side ? (Like Character cards in Rage.)
One side would have the Advanced vampire without any merged effect. (With the Advance trait and no icon)
The other side would be the Merged vampire. It would have this icon before the vampire's name in order to be easily noticeable.
As for the cardtext, clan, sect and disciplines, it would be a full recap of everything the Merged vampire should be.
> BenPeal wrote:
>
> > 666Raziel wrote:
> > Sorry if I'm hammering , but what I like about my proposition is that it works very nice with Ke's layout.
> >
> > Traits goes in the black box (and we now have a good reason tu fully write the clan's name there).
> >
> In addition to the other problems I'm mentioned with the idea for a second text box, here's another: You're pre-filling the text space with the clan name, which reduces the avaialble space. From a card design perspective, we have less space to work with, especially with clan names like "Follower of Set" and "Daughter of Cacophony". I have a similar frustration with "Cold Iron Vulnerability" and "She cannot play cards that require Celerity ." They eat up text space and restrict the abilty to be creative with specials.
>
> On top of it, the black box reduces the amount of text space available in the white box, regardless of how much text is used in the black box. The space is much more efficiently used with a single text box, and that allows us to use a larger font for improved readibility.
>
> For example, look at the Bold Traits version of Ur-Shulgi:
>
> dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17269164/vtes/layout/text-urshulgi.jpg
>
> There's effectively a blank bar on top of the white text box. Eliminate that, increase the white text box space to include the space occupied by the black bar, and increase the font size.
>
I think you are nitpicking.
So far any version of Ke's layout is still more readable than the original card. And that goes for recent cards (like Appolonius ADV) as well.
And by the look of it, it seems like you could make more Sonja Blue with this layout.
Besides, regarding Ur-Shulgi, if every traits were placed on the black box as I recommend (which is not the case in the "Separated traits" version), I think we would gain space.
> 666Raziel wrote:
> I think you are nitpicking.
>
Trying to make the most of the limited design space available is not nitpicking.
> So far any version of Ke's layout is still more readable than the original card. And that goes for recent cards (like Appolonius ADV) as well.
> And by the look of it, it seems like you could make more Sonja Blue with this layout.
>
That doesn't mean that the space should be wasted all over again. Here's another way to look at it:
You create a text box for a crypt card. You can either:
- Allow the Design Team to use that text space to create cool specials.
or
- Prohibit the Design Team from using that text space to create cool specials.
Right now, you're advocating the latter.
> Besides, regarding Ur-Shulgi, if every traits were placed on the black box as I recommend (which is not the case in the "Separated traits" version), I think we would gain space.
>
So pick one of the myriad vampires without traits and observe the wasted space.
It's nitpicking because you are willing to sacrifice clarity in order to gain few centimeters for potential abilities.
Nearly every cardgame I know "waisted" some space in order to make the keyword on their cards easily noticeable.
And so far this concept of "white text on black box" opposed to "black text on white box" looks way more "catchy" than any bold tricks I've seen.
Besides, if this layout constrain your creativity, here is another suggestion :
- remove the clan/creed icon from below the name
- pull the discipline/virtue up
- enlarge the text box
- place traits in the black box and abilities in the white box
- add the clan icon "as a watermark" (I hope WordReference was right about the meaning of this one ! ) in the white box, so this space is never empty, even when vampire don't have abilities
What do you think ?
> 666Raziel wrote:
> It's nitpicking because you are willing to sacrifice clarity in order to gain few centimeters for potential abilities.
>
Clarity? How do you get extra clarity by putting the word "Advanced" - or any other similar trait - in white text on a black background, rather than black text on a white background? You still have to know what the word means, you still have to understand the implications of the term.
Would cards have greater clarity if titles were in the black box? I'm confused as to why "Tremere Justicar" isn't worthy of being in the black box, but Blood Cursed apparently is, and in one version of Ur Shulgi +1 bleed goes in there too, so +1 bleed - regularly going to be crucial information throughout the game - gets mixed in with Advanced and Blood Cursed, which most people would ignore.
Whatever it is that the black box offers, it doesn't appear to be clarity.
When I speak about clarity, it means that any player (new and old) can identify the nature of the text he's reading at first sight. (Understanding the meaning of it is something else.)
Here is what I said to Ankha :
> 666Raziel wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> > The other thing is that if we get a clear picture of how a trait and ability are different, we may find out a rule to display them in a logical way in the textbox.
> >
> Like I said :
>
> Abilities = sentences. (and +X bonus count as a sentence, since it's only the condensed form of "Y has +X.")
>
> Trait = word(s).
>
Trait => black box
Abilities => white box
I don't think it could be more simple.
As for the Ur-Shulgi examples it's irrelevant against what I'm advocating because none of those tries follow my pattern.
> 666Raziel wrote:
> When I speak about clarity, it means that any player (new and old) can identify the nature of the text he's reading at first sight. (Understanding the meaning of it is something else.)
>
Okay, so by clarity you mean "I've divided card text arbitrarily into two categories, and when other people think that's bullshit, I'll tell them they're nitpicking." Good to know.
> 666Raziel wrote:
> When I speak about clarity, it means that any player (new and old) can identify the nature of the text he's reading at first sight. (Understanding the meaning of it is something else.)
>
Normally, icons and images in general are faster ways than text to identify things.
V:EKN Website Coordinator
> Damnans wrote:
>
> > 666Raziel wrote:
> > When I speak about clarity, it means that any player (new and old) can identify the nature of the text he's reading at first sight. (Understanding the meaning of it is something else.)
> >
> Normally, icons and images in general are faster ways than text to identify things.
>
In a way, I would totally agree with you. (That's why, for example, I'm in favor of icon to represent life, strength and bleed on allies cards.)
But icon needs to be restricted, or else it creates confusion.
For example, why is Flight having an icon and not Infernal ? Fundamentally they are both the same thing.
Why Advance get to be "icon only" and not "Scarce" ?
Etc.
(Few similar question could be asked regarding library cards as well.)
Nevertheless, if you think icon is the solution, why not try it ?
We could use them for the common denominator of every vampire : clan, sect and maybe vote ?
> 666Raziel wrote:
>
> > Damnans wrote:
> >
> > Normally, icons and images in general are faster ways than text to identify things.
> >
> In a way, I would totally agree with you. (That's why, for example, I'm in favor of icon to represent life, strength and bleed on allies cards.)
>
> But icon needs to be restricted, or else it creates confusion.
>
Agreed.
> 666Raziel wrote:
> For example, why is Flight having an icon and not Infernal ? Fundamentally they are both the same thing.
>
Because Flight works like a discipline, and disciplines use icons in order to make them easier to identify, given their high number (28).
> 666Raziel wrote:
> Why Advance get to be "icon only" and not "Scarce" ?
>
I think the reason behind this is that, by using an icon, you cannot possibly mistake a base vampire with an advanced one at a first glance.
> 666Raziel wrote:
> Nevertheless, if you think icon is the solution, why not try it ?
> We could use them for the common denominator of every vampire : clan, sect and maybe vote ?
>
I did not mean icons to be the solution. My point is that if an icon works, please do not replace it with text, because text will make it more difficult for the player to identify card types, requirements, etc.
V:EKN Website Coordinator
Flight does not work like a Discipline. When a vampire plays Soar while Blood Weakens is in play, the Methuselah does have to wait to replace that cards. As a game component, Flight is closer to Black Hand than it is to any Disciplines.
If you want to address it by decreeing that now on, Flight, Striga and Malefica are Disciplines ; I'm OK with that.
But you cannot use the same representation for different things. For me it's a great example of icon's use gone wrong.
The fact that "icon work" is, in my opinion, subject to discussion. Since we drag some of those for 15 years, I think that we (the "used player") mistake habits and effectiveness.
Also, even if those icon works according to the majority of the user expressing their opinion on this topic, it does not mean that we cannot find a solution that work better. B)
> 666Raziel wrote:
> It's nitpicking because you are willing to sacrifice clarity in order to gain few centimeters for potential abilities.
>
Perhaps you consider an entire line of text to be a trivial amount of space. I do not.
As for clarity, again, that space can also be used to increase the font size. Readibility aids in clarity.
> 666Raziel wrote:
> Flight does not work like a Discipline. When a vampire plays Soar while Blood Weakens is in play, the Methuselah does have to wait to replace that cards. As a game component, Flight is closer to Black Hand than it is to any Disciplines.
>
I completely agree. If we're not going to have an icon for Black Hand (required for 28 cards), then we shouldn't have one for Flight (required for 9 cards). They are merely keywords (or traits, as I've chosen to define them).
> The fact that "icon work" is, in my opinion, subject to discussion. Since we drag some of those for 15 years, I think that we (the "used player") mistake habits and effectiveness.
>
> Also, even if those icon works according to the majority of the user expressing their opinion on this topic, it does not mean that we cannot find a solution that work better. B)
>
Also agreed.
> BenPeal wrote:
>
> > 666Raziel wrote:
> > It's nitpicking because you are willing to sacrifice clarity in order to gain few centimeters for potential abilities.
> >
> Perhaps you consider an entire line of text to be a trivial amount of space. I do not.
>
> As for clarity, again, that space can also be used to increase the font size. Readibility aids in clarity.
>
I don't consider an entire line of text trivial.
But :
1) I don't think that the pattern I recommend waste an entire line. Sure, there's a line break. But since the global text box is longer, I don't think it will really matter.
2) The new card text is already more readable than it use to be. Give it a break and let it breath ! I know that we are all getting old and that our eyes may not be as good as they use to be. But so far, except maybe for Sonja Blue, I haven't seen any complaints about vampire being unreadable (even now when almost every game I play involve bad quality proxy). On the other hand, VTES is not known for being a clear and easy to learn game.
So, yes, this new layout won't allow you to create a Daughter of Cacophony, Camarilla, Black Hand, Infernal, Redlist, Toreador Slave with unusual abilities. But is it really a problem ?
Besides, note that, by removing clan icon from cards, we are saving space on library cards since it's no longer necessary to always add the icon after the name...
Ok, still looking for a solution that could make everyone happy, here is my latest suggestion based on the last thoughts.
I have never been an artist so, please, don't focus on the scale and everything like that.
The idea is to free the textbox so BenPeal is happy by having plenty space while I still get to have every traits written outside of the minion abilities.
In order to do so, I came back on icon for 2 things that concern every vampire : clan and sect.
I think those icon can hang over the artwork without spoiling it.
What do you think of it ?
> 666Raziel wrote:
> I don't consider an entire line of text trivial.
> But :
> 1) I don't think that the pattern I recommend waste an entire line. Sure, there's a line break. But since the global text box is longer, I don't think it will really matter.
>
> 666Raziel wrote:
> So, yes, this new layout won't allow you to create a Daughter of Cacophony, Camarilla, Black Hand, Infernal, Redlist, Toreador Slave with unusual abilities. But is it really a problem ?
>
> BenPeal wrote:
>
> > 666Raziel wrote:
> > I don't consider an entire line of text trivial.
> > But :
> > 1) I don't think that the pattern I recommend waste an entire line. Sure, there's a line break. But since the global text box is longer, I don't think it will really matter.
> >
Ok, at first I enjoyed arguing with you but now I wonder if you ever read my post before refuting them.
Maybe my english is terrible (and since it's not my native tongue, it might be) . In that case, I'm truly sorry.
Nevertheless I said many times that this current layout is not what I recommend.
So all of your illustration are right. But they are still irrelevant against my recommendation.
As for the True Brujah issue, I think that you are "fighting the wrong war". If you lack space, in crypt textbox, maybe the first problem is the text...
Ever thought of using a trait ? Like ... I don't know "Celerity Inaptitude". This would work just like Vulnerability but instead of being a source of aggravated damage, it will prevent the minion from having, playing or using those element.
Note that this could be extend to many things. Angelo would have "Retainer Inaptitude", Enkidu would have "Equipment Inaptitude", etc. (Just think of the amount of space gained on Beast card ! )
> 666Raziel wrote:
> Ok, at first I enjoyed arguing with you but now I wonder if you ever read my post before refuting them.
>
So I read this:
> I think you are nitpicking.
> So far any version of Ke's layout is still more readable than the original card. And that goes for recent cards (like Appolonius ADV) as well.
>
And that's what I've been refuting. You also keep making comments that are dismissive of my design concerns, and I'm trying to make it abundantly clear to you that these problems are significant. It's not nitpicking, it's not being fearful of change, it's not being resistant to change, and it's not about needing to lighten up. They are issues that I've faced when designing cards every time I've worked on a set.
> Maybe my english is terrible (and since it's not my native tongue, it might be) . In that case, I'm truly sorry.
>
No need to apologize. Your English is totally fine.
> Nevertheless I said many times that this current layout is not what I recommend.
>
> So all of your illustration are right. But they are still irrelevant against my recommendation.
>
Except for where you're still pushing for a second text box. The same issues apply.
> As for the True Brujah issue, I think that you are "fighting the wrong war". If you lack space, in crypt textbox, maybe the first problem is the text...
> Ever thought of using a trait ? Like ... I don't know "Celerity Inaptitude". This would work just like Vulnerability but instead of being a source of aggravated damage, it will prevent the minion from having, playing or using those element.
>
I've definitely thought of that. In particular, I've recommended to the rules team that we change "Cold Iron Vulnerability" to "Fae". However, I also think that "Cold Iron Vulnerability" and "Can't Use Celerity" should be eliminated from the game as not only have they contributed little of any significance, they've caused design problems by restricting text space. The empty space caused by the black text box results in an identical problem. Both should be eliminated.
> BenPeal wrote:
>
> If we're not going to have an icon for Black Hand (required for 28 cards), then we shouldn't have one for Flight (required for 9 cards).
>
Maybe the right way is to have icon for black hand?
NC Russia
In case there is a language barrier, here is how I wish this layout would be :
As I've said here we could pull the discipline up in order to enlarge the text box.
Also, the water-marked clan icon would deal with vampire without abilities.
> BenPeal wrote:
>
> > 666Raziel wrote:
> > Ok, at first I enjoyed arguing with you but now I wonder if you ever read my post before refuting them.
> >
> So I read this:
>
> > I think you are nitpicking.
> > So far any version of Ke's layout is still more readable than the original card. And that goes for recent cards (like Appolonius ADV) as well.
> >
> And that's what I've been refuting. You also keep making comments that are dismissive of my design concerns, and I'm trying to make it abundantly clear to you that these problems are significant. It's not nitpicking, it's not being fearful of change, it's not being resistant to change, and it's not about needing to lighten up. They are issues that I've faced when designing cards every time I've worked on a set.
>
> > Maybe my english is terrible (and since it's not my native tongue, it might be) . In that case, I'm truly sorry.
> >
> No need to apologize. Your English is totally fine.
>
> > Nevertheless I said many times that this current layout is not what I recommend.
> >
> > So all of your illustration are right. But they are still irrelevant against my recommendation.
> >
> Except for where you're still pushing for a second text box. The same issues apply.
>
> > As for the True Brujah issue, I think that you are "fighting the wrong war". If you lack space, in crypt textbox, maybe the first problem is the text...
> > Ever thought of using a trait ? Like ... I don't know "Celerity Inaptitude". This would work just like Vulnerability but instead of being a source of aggravated damage, it will prevent the minion from having, playing or using those element.
> >
> I've definitely thought of that. In particular, I've recommended to the rules team that we change "Cold Iron Vulnerability" to "Fae". However, I also think that "Cold Iron Vulnerability" and "Can't Use Celerity" should be eliminated from the game as not only have they contributed little of any significance, they've caused design problems by restricting text space. The empty space caused by the black text box results in an identical problem. Both should be eliminated.
>
Ok I didn't saw your post before posting my last.
Maybe I made a poor choice of word when I said that you were nitpicking.
The thing is, that there will always be component that restrain the text box.
If I understand our two opinions correctly you want to optimize that space as much as possible. While I think that we should be satisfied by what we gained and allow ourself the "luxury" of making the traits more noticeable.
EDIT : about vulnerability and the True Brujah flaw, I wouldn't mind if there were gone.
That said, True Brujah are not the only one who cannot play a certain cardtype. So I think we should definitely find a way to shorten this "abilities".
> Damnans wrote:
>
> > 666Raziel wrote:
> > When I speak about clarity, it means that any player (new and old) can identify the nature of the text he's reading at first sight. (Understanding the meaning of it is something else.)
> >
> Normally, icons and images in general are faster ways than text to identify things.
>
As a somewhat new player, I would like to point out that if the number of different icons grows very large, it becomes counterproductive as new players will have difficulty remembering what each icon means (particularly the rare ones). It took me better part of the year to remember different clan symbols when I started out, and I might still mistake a Kiasyd symbol for a Harbinger of skulls for example, or not remember the exotic discipline symbols.
Whereas text is always explicit and cannot be mistaken. I'm sure some sort of compromise could be reached though, with the common stuff having icons and the most exotic ones not?
Smoking craters tell no tales.
—Tex talks Battletech
> 666Raziel wrote:
> Ok I didn't saw your post before posting my last.
> Maybe I made a poor choice of word when I said that you were nitpicking.
>
No worries. We have same intent and goal, which is to improve the layout as best we can. Even where I think the implementation is bad, I know the intent behind the idea is good.
> The thing is, that there will always be component that restrain the text box.
>
This is very true, and within the Design Team I've had a hard rule about only having four lines of text for crypt cards. This is for a couple of reasons:
- It forces us to write text in the simplest and most efficient way possible, which is almost always the best way possible.
- It encourages readibility, as five lines of text results in an annoyingly small font.
- Short and sweet leads to better playability.
We've had some exceptions to this, particularly in the Storylines 2015 mini set, but we want to keep those exceptions very few.
I like extending the text box into the attribute bar, as it allows either about 3/4 of an additional line's worth of text without sacrificing readibility, or it allows for an increase in font size, which improves readibility.
> If I understand our two opinions correctly you want to optimize that space as much as possible. While I think that we should be satisfied by what we gained and allow ourself the "luxury" of making the traits more noticeable.
>
Yes, I'd say that's an accurate assessment.
As for making efficient use of space, and how much space is really being gained, here's another example:
EDIT: It's the exact same issue with your proposed layout. Just move the clan icon into the text box as a watermark.
Ok. So far we are good then !
> BenPeal wrote:
> As for making efficient use of space, and how much space is really being gained, here's another example:
>
> EDIT: It's the exact same issue with your proposed layout. Just move the clan icon into the text box as a watermark.
>
As for this last assessment, I have to disagree...
The way I see it, you forgot 2 things.
1) the fact that the black box will have, at least, a clan and a sect. Sure there will still be some waste but some vampire will probably have none(ex : Jamal, Alicia Burrows or Scott Youngwood, etc.)
2) with the removal of the clan icon from the side bar, we get one full line of text available (unless you want to keep the space for vampire with 8 disciplines ?)
EDIT : one other thing worth considering is that, by having the clan written il full letters in every cards, we gain space whenever a clan appears in an ability. It's not much, but it's definitely a gain on some cards like Keminitri ADV, Legba, Lisandro Giovanni, etc.
Using a watermark (or any representation of the clan underneath some text) is a bad idea, as it makes it really difficult to spot.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
> Using a watermark (or any representation of the clan underneath some text) is a bad idea, as it makes it really difficult to spot.
>
What makes you say that ? (They seems pretty visible on Android Netrunner.)
Besides, the main purpose of the watermark is to fill the textbox when there is no text along with keeping the clan icon somewhere on the crypt card.
The fact that some of them might be hard to spot is no big deal.
> 666Raziel wrote:
> Besides, the main purpose of the watermark is to fill the textbox when there is no text along with keeping the clan icon somewhere on the crypt card.
>
The main purpose of the clan icon is to tell you what clan it is!!!!!!
> The fact that some of them might be hard to spot is no big deal.
>
*sob*
> BenPeal wrote:
>
Well, obviously you reached the limit of copy/paste.
At this point, I would especially like to see this pattern done by Ke. (If that's ok for him.)
There is still the full line gained by the removal of the clan icon in the sidebar that needs to be considered.
As for the "Advance" trait, we can stick with the icon and place it after (or before ?) the vampire's name.
That said, if this is still wasting too much space for you, there is the Plan B where Clan and Sect are indicated with Icon placed somewhere above the textbox .
> 666Raziel wrote:
> Well, obviously you reached the limit of copy/paste.
>
Hey, at least I didn't use "Cold Iron Vulnerability" for Marconius.
> That said, if this is still wasting too much space for you, there is the Plan B where Clan and Sect are indicated with Icon placed somewhere above the textbox .
>
There is also Plan: Get Rid Of The Black Text Box.
> BenPeal wrote:
>
> > 666Raziel wrote:
> > Besides, the main purpose of the watermark is to fill the textbox when there is no text along with keeping the clan icon somewhere on the crypt card.
> >
> The main purpose of the clan icon is to tell you what clan it is!!!!!!
>
> > The fact that some of them might be hard to spot is no big deal.
> >
> *sob*
>
Well, in Ke's layout, this job is done by the sidebar and the first trait (which is the clan's name).
> BenPeal wrote:
>
> > 666Raziel wrote:
> > Well, obviously you reached the limit of copy/paste.
> >
> Hey, at least I didn't use "Cold Iron Vulnerability" for Marconius.
>
Yep, I have to give you credits for that !
> > That said, if this is still wasting too much space for you, there is the Plan B where Clan and Sect are indicated with Icon placed somewhere above the textbox .
> >
> There is also Plan: Get Rid Of The Black Text Box.
>
If you (or anyone else) find an other way to dissociate vampire's traits from their abilities, I would gladly stop to support the black box.
And by dissociation I would like more than just bold/not bold in the same text-block.
Here's how it's done on other game :
Any idea how we can adjust it to VTES ?
> BenPeal wrote:
> That's what I want as well. Er, except I'm not sure whether Flight should be simply a trait in the crypt text box with its accompanying symbol, or whether the Flight symbol should go in the attribute bar. Thoughts?
>
In the V20 edition, flight is an actual discipline. I'd be in favor of making it one and padding out the card text to accommodate.
I remember a conversation we had about striga/maleficia and how there was concern about them being actual disciplines and interaction with effects that steal disciplines. I'd be totally okay with non-discipline traits that otherwise work like disciplines. I think it's a decent design space to explore: Things like status within one's clan and sect that aren't linked to titles could be represented. Icons could be photo negative of disciplines for ease of identification, like flight.
But that being said, Flight probably shouldn't have an icon if it's not going to behave like a discipline.
> 666Raziel wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> > Using a watermark (or any representation of the clan underneath some text) is a bad idea, as it makes it really difficult to spot.
> >
> What makes you say that ? (They seems pretty visible on Android Netrunner.)
>
> Besides, the main purpose of the watermark is to fill the textbox when there is no text along with keeping the clan icon somewhere on the crypt card.
> The fact that some of them might be hard to spot is no big deal.
>
oh OK, as long as they don't replace the clan identifying symbol
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Leave the clan symbol where it is. Drop the second text box. Don't put clan names on crypt cards. Clan symbol is enough.
> Bloodartist wrote:
> It took me better part of the year to remember different clan symbols when I started out, and I might still mistake a Kiasyd symbol for a Harbinger of skulls for example, or not remember the exotic discipline symbols.
>
The good thing about symbols is that you don't need to know the names of clans and/or disciplines. You just compare if the symbol on library card (required clan or discipline) matches the symbol on crypt card. If the card requires the vampire with "black square" discipline and you have one, you can play the card. You don't need to know that this is obfuscate discipline.
So it's very important that those symbols are clearly visible.
The good thing about name is that you don't need to know the symbols of clans. You just compare if the name on library card matches the name on crypt card. If the card requires the vampire with "Gangrel" and you have one, you can play the card. You don't need to know that the wolf-head is their symbols.
So it's very important that those names are clearly visible.
That said, I can understand that player wants to keep the clan symbol as the first way to identify their vampires. In that case there is this option :
(Inspired by AGOT LCG layout.)
However, what I don't like about this solution is that it creates 2 types of traits. Those depicted by icon and those written fully.
Wow. Things are busy here — great to see so much input.
I've taken a step back from the thread and just let things brew, while also thinking about and implementing solutions to peoples complaints. The end results have been productive:
Probably the most important change is that the clan name and group no longer eats into card text real estate. The size and prominence has also greatly been reduced to reflect that this is secondary information (mainly useful for new players). With current artwork the clan name (and group) only cover areas that artists were expecting to be cropped by the previous oval frame. This means no elements considered important by the artist should be covered.
The second major change is extending the clan frame along the bottom of the card. This addresses any generated artwork oddities and also helps re-enforce the clan colour and texture.
Finally all of the card text uses the latest text and remains unchanged. When the vampire has a special ability and an effect like +bleed etc the effect is bold. This addresses players concerns about being easily able to identify certain effects and also keeps the rules team / designers happy as their card text is untouched.
I haven't yet pushed these out to amaranth.vtes.co.nz — that will occur at the same time as the library card update. Will post more pics below.
Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook
And here are some advance vampires that previously had issues.
The original reason for removing the icon is that there's nothing to match it to — it doesn't seem to make sense to use an icon in this scenario. What do new players match it to? by keeping just disciplines and the clan icon in the side bar you can just say to a new player "You match the icons in this bar to cards you want to play".
Here's what it would look like without the (rubbish) icon as part of the secondary information:
Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook
Okay. So one of the things that's happening is that we're pretty rapidly running out of real estate on the card. As Ben and Ke have pointed out having two boxes means we really should be putting shit in both. Having two boxes on a crypt card creates a bunch of dead space, too (see Ben's posts to that effect). Someone suggested using Icons to denote sect. this can be done, but Ke does have a point that sect gives us something to put in that text box when a vampire has nothing else going on.
I designed some sect icons for Independents and Laibon to go with the Sabbat and Camarilla Ankhs. the problem that comes up is that an Ankh is basically rectangular, where as the overwhelming majority of Clan Icons are basically square (stares intently at the Assamite Icon). This can be a problem because using Ankhs for sect icons is pretty natural, but the dimensions will make the sect icons naturally bigger than Clan Icons when justified to width. not to mention where to put the Disciplines, because they sure as fuck all can't go in that bar if they're getting crammed in there with a clan icon, sect icon, advanced icon... &c.
So this is what such a thing could look like:
honestly, it's not my favorite. it just feels unhygienic. Also, I had more, but i super done fucked up and ultimately ragequit. because I accidentally closed a window and didn't save. Needless to say, it was slightly more traditional than what I did manage to save.
Hi Ke,
Can we see what the cards would look like using the following specifications as given by the Rules Team, Design Team, and Art Team?
- Fixed text box size (4 lines of text).
- Advanced icon directly below the clan icon instead of at the top of the disciplines.
- Clan name removed.
- "+1 strength", et al, not bolded.
Great job!
I like the newest Ke's version. Especially group number looks very good now.
I have few notes and they follow exacly, Ben's, with fixed text box being most important and other more estethic.
> BenPeal wrote:
> Can we see what the cards would look like using the following specifications as given by the Rules Team, Design Team, and Art Team?
>
> - Fixed text box size (4 lines of text).
> - Advanced icon directly below the clan icon instead of at the top of the disciplines.
> - Clan name removed.
>
Sure, although 4 lines of text is not a fixed size. That would depend on the font size, spacing, amount of text and even the characters used.
For the below I've just used the average height inner circle text:
The empty white space looks tragic on the cards without much text — they almost look unfinished, like someone doesn't care.
And even the cards with a decent amount of text can have padding inconsistencies — this correlates with my above statement that 4 lines of text is not a fixed height. Yes, you can adjust leading, kerning and font-size according (the system does some of this) — however readability soon goes down the toilet once these fall out of certain ranges.
> BenPeal wrote:
> Rules Team, Design Team, and Art Team
>
That would be you, Mike, Pascal, Vincent and Gines — correct?
Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook
> Ke. wrote:
> The empty white space looks tragic on the cards without much text — they almost look unfinished, like someone doesn't care.
>
That's exactly because they're unfinished. They don't have the proper leading, spacing, kerning, font sizing, etc. For the V:EKN sets, Vincent created a card generator that has logic to cover those things. Did he share it with you? It doesn't give us the quality one would get from a professional typesetter, but lacking the funds for that it's working quite well.
As for fixed-sized box vs. un-fixed-sized box, I really like the consistency of the overall look of the fixed-sized box. It's especially noticeable when you look at a row of cards side by side. For me, the un-fixed-size box results in a jumbled look when the cards are seen side by side. Having only two text box sizes aids in cross-table crypt-vs-library recognition.
Quick note: your generator isn't bolding the Laibon sect and Magaji title.
Another note: How about toning down the text box by making it a shade of grey? The white seems kinda loud.
> > BenPeal wrote:
> > Rules Team, Design Team, and Art Team
> >
> That would be you, Mike, Pascal, Vincent and Gines — correct?
>
Correct.
> Ke. wrote:
> And here's a Helena Advance comparison without the advance icon:
>
Hey, thanks for looking into this one. It's definitely the worst-case issue for attribute bar problems. From a Design Team perspective, I'd be inclined to have a hard limit of six disciplines regardless of whether the vampire is Advanced. Helena Adv and Don Cerro are fun curiosities, but I doubt I'd make more of them. Perhaps it might come up if there was a canon reason to add a discipline to a Advanced vampire who already has six disciplines, but that could also be addressed in merged text.
> BenPeal wrote:
>
> > Ke. wrote:
> > And here's a Helena Advance comparison without the advance icon:
> >
> Hey, thanks for looking into this one. It's definitely the worst-case issue for attribute bar problems. From a Design Team perspective, I'd be inclined to have a hard limit of six disciplines regardless of whether the vampire is Advanced. Helena Adv and Don Cerro are fun curiosities, but I doubt I'd make more of them. Perhaps it might come up if there was a canon reason to add a discipline to a Advanced vampire who already has six disciplines, but that could also be addressed in merged text.
>
The advanced symbol could be move after the vampire name.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> BenPeal wrote:
> That's exactly because they're unfinished. They don't have the proper leading, spacing, kerning, font sizing, etc. For the V:EKN sets, Vincent created a card generator that has logic to cover those things. Did he share it with you?
>
The code was opened source until Google Code closed. I still haven't migrated the repository to something public (because I'd like to keep the history but it's somehow complicated) but I can send the code by mail.
The algorithm does trial and error by changing the font size and checking if it respects a list of layout rules in order to match the layout of the printed sets.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> BenPeal wrote:
> That's exactly because they're unfinished. They don't have the proper leading, spacing, kerning, font sizing, etc.
>
Even with the vertical alignment they look unfinished (updated — see Homa, Ubende, Brigitte after a refresh).
> BenPeal wrote:
> Quick note: your generator isn't bolding the Laibon sect and Magaji title.
>
Yes, this is deliberate. It doesn't bold text when everything is bold — bold is that scenario is pointless.
> BenPeal wrote:
> Another note: How about toning down the text box by making it a shade of grey? The white seems kinda loud.
>
Disagree here; when it comes to print readability is key — more so when home printers are involved.
Yes, Vincent and I touched on things; however in terms of library cards I don't believe his solution has the capabilities required for the newer layouts. Admittedly that's only going on what I've seen so far. This approach can and does adjust font size, kerning and leading etc also.
Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook
> self wrote:
> Okay. So one of the things that's happening is that we're pretty rapidly running out of real estate on the card. As Ben and Ke have pointed out having two boxes means we really should be putting shit in both. Having two boxes on a crypt card creates a bunch of dead space, too (see Ben's posts to that effect). Someone suggested using Icons to denote sect. this can be done, but Ke does have a point that sect gives us something to put in that text box when a vampire has nothing else going on.
>
> I designed some sect icons for Independents and Laibon to go with the Sabbat and Camarilla Ankhs. the problem that comes up is that an Ankh is basically rectangular, where as the overwhelming majority of Clan Icons are basically square (stares intently at the Assamite Icon). This can be a problem because using Ankhs for sect icons is pretty natural, but the dimensions will make the sect icons naturally bigger than Clan Icons when justified to width. not to mention where to put the Disciplines, because they sure as fuck all can't go in that bar if they're getting crammed in there with a clan icon, sect icon, advanced icon... &c.
>
> So this is what such a thing could look like:
>
> honestly, it's not my favorite. it just feels unhygienic. Also, I had more, but i super done fucked up and ultimately ragequit. because I accidentally closed a window and didn't save. Needless to say, it was slightly more traditional than what I did manage to save.
>
Hey, thank you very much for giving it a try !
Though this look weird, I think this is worth more in depth studies.
Here a few recommendations/questions :
- I think that the Advance icon should be after the vampire's name. Like that it's easier for everyone to get that this icon has to do with the vampire identity.
- why did you reverse disciplines and clan/sect icon ? It's true that aligned like that, it allows the game designer to easily create vampire with more than 6 Disciplines. That said, I think that it's the source of most of the "discomfort feeling" this card provide.
What you said about the ankh being rectangular is right. But maybe a good way to deal with would be if the bottom of those icon were watermarked behind the text-box. We would still have the upper part to identify them clearly.
Personally I would place the sect icon where you put the group. Like that, it will be even more clear when vampire have short cardtext.
> Ankha wrote:
> The advanced symbol could be move after the vampire name.
>
Great idea, love it:
Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook
> Ke. wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> > The advanced symbol could be move after the vampire name.
> >
> Great idea, love it:
>
I'll... start to be jealous !
Nevertheless, the finish is very cool !
Besides I really like the way you evolve the "black box". Could you show us how it would be if every traits were written after the clan name ? Especially for those vampires .
Idea, non relevant to the previous discussion, but also about crypt redesign.
To use something like this for advanced disciplines on vampires:
to make ability to use both basic and advanced discipline effect on cards more intuitive.
NC Russia
> Ke. wrote:
> Yes, Vincent and I touched on things; however in terms of library cards I don't believe his solution has the capabilities required for the newer layouts. Admittedly that's only going on what I've seen so far. This approach can and does adjust font size, kerning and leading etc also.
>
It should support them just fine.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ke. wrote:
>
> > BenPeal wrote:
> > That's exactly because they're unfinished. They don't have the proper leading, spacing, kerning, font sizing, etc.
> >
> Even with the vertical alignment they look unfinished (updated — see Homa, Ubende, Brigitte after a refresh).
>
Try bolding the text and making the box a shade of grey. I agree that there's a fair amount of space that's unused by the text, but again, that fixed-sized space is still serving the purposes of crypt-vs-library recognition and visual uniformity.
The "simple" vampires in this set look a lot more "finished" with their text bolded and the text box shaded:
www.vekn.net/images/stories/expansions/AU/unbound-crypt-final.pdf
Do you have a 9-card sheet version of sample vamps to look at?
> > Quick note: your generator isn't bolding the Laibon sect and Magaji title.
> >
> Yes, this is deliberate. It doesn't bold text when everything is bold — bold is that scenario is pointless.
>
Says you. Let's have a look at it bolded to match the official text templating rules.
> > Another note: How about toning down the text box by making it a shade of grey? The white seems kinda loud.
> >
> Disagree here; when it comes to print readability is key — more so when home printers are involved.
>
The white makes it look loud and it contributes to an unfinished look.
Another note: the contrast of the group number isn't quite working out in some cases. Perhaps the grey backing circle could be darkened.
> elotar wrote:
> Idea, non relevant to the previous discussion, but also about crypt redesign.
>
> To use something like this for advanced disciplines on vampires:
>
> to make ability to use both basic and advanced ability on cards more intuitive.
>
I don't know if it would be more intuitive.
I still have trouble dealing with merged vampire and I play this game since KMW. I fear that new icon (even if they are a mix-up of already existing icon) will bring more confusion.
> 666Raziel wrote:
>
> > elotar wrote:
> > Idea, non relevant to the previous discussion, but also about crypt redesign.
> >
> > To use something like this for advanced disciplines on vampires:
> >
> > to make ability to use both basic and advanced ability on cards more intuitive.
> >
> I don't know if it would be more intuitive.
> I still have trouble dealing with merged vampire and I play this game since KMW. I fear that new icon (even if they are a mix-up of already existing icon) will bring more confusion.
>
Advanced vampires is a rare case, but anvanced discipline is a most basic gameplay. I got confused looks from like 95% of new players when I'm trying to explain, that diamond on a vampire (which is on some cards smaller than squire) means both squire and diamond on a card.
NC Russia
Ok. My apologies, when I first read your previous post I understood something else.
(I thought it was designed to help vampire who gain Discipline level when merged. )
So as for your idea, I like it.
It will feel odds at first but if it can help new player why deprive ourself ?
> BenPeal wrote:
> Try bolding the text and making the box a shade of grey. I agree that there's a fair amount of space that's unused by the text, but again, that fixed-sized space is still serving the purposes of crypt-vs-library recognition and visual uniformity.
>
Ke, can you set the opacity of the white box to 80-85%? That might help soften things.
> self wrote:
> Ke, can you set the opacity of the white box to 80-85%? That might help soften things.
>
That probably depends a lot on how Ke has created the "L" frame of the clan background. If it's flush with the text box, it might work. If the text box overlaps the horizontal portion of the border, it'll look awkward.
> BenPeal wrote:
> That probably depends a lot on how Ke has created the "L" frame of the clan background. If it's flush with the text box, it might work. If the text box overlaps the horizontal portion of the border, it'll look awkward.
>
ill take a look at the raw files when I get home. The dropbox was updating last night. Which would you prefer under the text box? The clan texture or the vampire art? I think a diagonal fade might work, but we'll have to test it.
> Ke. wrote:
> The second major change is extending the clan frame along the bottom of the card. This addresses any generated artwork oddities and also helps re-enforce the clan colour and texture.
>
Cards look even better than in previous iterations with this change!
BTW Jessica's title (Sabbat bishop) looks odd -as if it wasn't bold.
Ubende (Laibon magaji) is even worse.
A-ha! Not bolding when only bold is visible looks sloppy and is highly illogical.
Also bolding the +1 Bleed etc is the Way to Go TM, IMO.
The standard size text box looks... redundant and empty. In text heavy cards there basically is no difference, but cards with very little text look like crow. Look at Brigette Mandisa, for example.
The color of text box was discussed already some time ago and I think the general consensus was more or less that pure white works best. (I was originally opposed to it but it grew on me. Strongly)
Finnish Politics!
> self wrote:
> Ke, can you set the opacity of the white box to 80-85%? That might help soften things.
>
It's not really possible due to how the frame leverages the white box. Also it would reveal generated artwork which seemed to upset The Design Team, The Rules Team and The Art Team.
This is also a non-issue. It only seems stark because your looking at them on screen as these are designed for print. I've just returned from the print shop with super high quality prints — they look FUCKING great.
Slicing them up now; will post some pics soonish.
Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook
I've played with them recently, and I have a few comments:
First, they don't mix at all with the old sets. They are too different. (I'm stating the obvious)
Secondly, the layout dedicated to the identification of the card has been reduced to the minimum, which appears to me not being enough. It may sound paradoxal since we want to gain space, but the cards are lacking visual clues that help recognize the type of card. A simple color/texture variation in the left bar is not enough.
Lastly, they look too plain, too vanilla. There's nothing in the layout that reminds me of the WoD. Crypt cards had the oval (reminding a portrait) and more texture, library cards had a marble stripe that gave unity and reminded the tomb of the WoD's covers.
In this design, the only strong identity is a texture that could refer to any game. The texture are not to blame, but there's something missing that would put those textures into the context of the WoD.
I'd like to see something like volutes, or maybe a marble texture on the bottom of the card (below the text box), something that identifies the game as vampire, something more than a plain rectangle stripe.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ke. wrote:
> The empty white space looks tragic on the cards without much text — they almost look unfinished, like someone doesn't care.
>
Bystander talking: Magic the gathering generally deals with this problem by having a fixed size text box, but if it would be too empty, some flavor text is added.
Flavor text is a quote or original piece of text loosely connected to the card in question. It has no rules significance and just basically serves as filler. Flavor text is usually written in italics to mark it different from actual rules text.
Here's an example that has no special abilities:
Example of combined rules text and flavor text
Smoking craters tell no tales.
—Tex talks Battletech
Well, earlier on this topic, few of us suggested that we add flavor text on crypt cards.
The conversation did not became very productive.
If we are going to discuss about it again, I had a new idea : what if flavor text were add in "grey box" like draft effect on the current cards ?
It could still fulfill its purpose and no one would mistake it for a game-effect. B)
> 666Raziel wrote:
> Well, earlier on this topic, few of us suggested that we add flavor text on crypt cards.
> The conversation did not became very productive.
>
> If we are going to discuss about it again, I had a new idea : what if flavor text were add in "grey box" like draft effect on the current cards ?
> It could still fulfill its purpose and no one would mistake it for a game-effect. B)
>
when i look at that grey box describing draft effects I feel like i'm a puppy being kicked repeatedly in the urethra. please no.
So here's another run at it. It's basically the same layout as the current crypt card with a few minor changes. the green marble bar has been eliminated (which i've always hated), the Advanced icon has been moved to after the vampire's name, the text box is significantly bigger, as is the portrait oval. also the group number has been moved to the opposite side of the text box, which blissfully, no one has complained about yet. Also Also, I removed 'advanced' from the bold text and slapped 'infernal' there because i wanted to remove a bit of redundant information, and i didn't want to fuck around with getting the font size juuuuussst right and the process is balls.
this new layout feels much like a 'roided out version of the original layout; a modernized gothic.
edit: i'll do a few more as I don't yet have access to the revised Library textures.
as promised:
the Gangrel antitribu can really go either way in terms of a 'contrast' or 'highlight' outline of the portrait.
666Raziel: sure, but that will result in more frequent overhang of the Vampire Name on the portrait. one of the things that really frustrated me when i was doing the Full Bleed stuff almost two years ago was that there was a padding that was needed at the top of the portraits that I couldn't always get.
as requested:
I'm not a fan of these. I can live with a little overhang into the portrait oval, but there's just too much at this point. Maaaaybe if we slung the disciplines along the top of the text box over the bottom of the portrait it could work, though i'm currently not inclined to go much further along this path. My big thing is that the off-center portrait gives us a very clear view of the background frame which goes toward aiding in recognition, as does the less opaque text box, though i'm tempted to make the box more opaque.
In the original set, the oval is the same proportions as the previous one, but about a third again as large. Crypt cards have a very asymmetrical feel to them, so I decided to capitalize on that. The portrait frame butts up against where the bar ought to be. I feel like this layout has a pretty good flow to it, and also allows for a place for a set icon to live.
Also, Ben, I see what you mean about the Capacity bubble: that thing is the fuckin' Devil for laying out text. Can we move it somewhere?
and yes, I realize that there are oodles of procedural inconsistencies. I'm a super amateur with the Photoshop.
> self wrote:
> Also, Ben, I see what you mean about the Capacity bubble: that thing is the fuckin' Devil for laying out text. Can we move it somewhere?
>
With automatic layout, it works fine.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> self wrote:
> I'm not a fan of these. I can live with a little overhang into the portrait oval, but there's just too much at this point. Maaaaybe if we slung the disciplines along the top of the text box over the bottom of the portrait it could work, though i'm currently not inclined to go much further along this path. My big thing is that the off-center portrait gives us a very clear view of the background frame which goes toward aiding in recognition, as does the less opaque text box, though i'm tempted to make the box more opaque.
>
> In the original set, the oval is the same proportions as the previous one, but about a third again as large. Crypt cards have a very asymmetrical feel to them, so I decided to capitalize on that. The portrait frame butts up against where the bar ought to be. I feel like this layout has a pretty good flow to it, and also allows for a place for a set icon to live.
>
> Also, Ben, I see what you mean about the Capacity bubble: that thing is the fuckin' Devil for laying out text. Can we move it somewhere?
>
> and yes, I realize that there are oodles of procedural inconsistencies. I'm a super amateur with the Photoshop.
>
Thank you for testing.
Personally I prefer the cards with centered artwork. The fact that the oval is cut in your first try looks very weird to me. As if the cards were misprinted.
That said, I agree with you about the fact that those latest tries hide too much of the background.
Maybe a smaller (but still centered) portrait would be better.
> self wrote:
> as requested:
>
These look really nice. I like the larger and more obvious clan symbol.
Note: its best that oval itself is centered, but the artwork within doesn't need to be.
ps. I think the capacity bubble should remain in the corner (I wrote elsewhere that 'costs' should be in card corners)
Smoking craters tell no tales.
—Tex talks Battletech
as an anecdote, I had a newer player use Ke's cards tonight. They said having certain special abilities be in the black box ended up being more confusing for them. they also said that they didn't like the text boxes being different sizes.