Rules Team Rulings - RTR 07/07/2016

Dear everyone, As you've probably heard today, we have some news from Paradox. Tournament Rules Change After several years of suggestion from players, discussion, debating amongst the NCs and Inner Circle, we have submitted a rule change to Paradox, and we are happy to report their support on the following points : "As long as the game is not under production, the organizer of an event can choose to allow proxy cards in his or her event. For events where proxy cards are allowed, several points apply: - there are no limit to the number of proxy cards a deck can have - every proxy card must be a color-copy of the original card, on standard paper - the quality of the print must allow the reading of the illustrator's name - the organizer must mark the event as 'allowing proxy cards' on the VEKN calendar" As for VEKN-issued cards, proxy-cards would have to be inserted in an opaque sleeve (along the rest of the crypt and/or library), before a regular VTES card. This change in the Tournament Rules will not apply to National Championships and Continental Championships. This RTR will be effective for events created for August 6th 2016 and later (this includes events held on August 6th, 2016). As we just received their answer, the implementation of the checkbox on the Event Module Creation isn't fully complete, and we kindly ask for your patience before creating Proxy-allowing events (it shouldn't take long).

Yeah !!!! Pentex Board of Directors Prince of Oye Plage Alastor Grand Nord

Dear all, Thanks, that sounds some good news. May I ask why you still ask to print on standard paper and use a genuine cards to use proxies? I mean, this RTR seems to say that people without any cards (because they could be interested in trying that game or because they've sold their collection) could go to official events. Sadly, it is not true. They still need genuine cards to put into their sleeves I hoped this part of the rule would have been changed because of the use of colored sleeves. Regards, Rémi. I am Rémi Cavaillé (), Barcelona (Spain). I was the Prince of Lyon (France) around 2003. I am now Official Judge and the 5th Prince of Barcelona. Enjoy VTES, Marvel Champions, L5R and more gaming activities in Khan Jugar: sites.google.com/view/khanjugar/

For my part I won't check the proxy decks, so as long as there are cards with the prints (even if they are Magic, Pokemon ou Yu Gi Oh) that will be fine for me. Pentex Board of Directors Prince of Oye Plage Alastor Grand Nord

What is the reason not to follow the rules? It can't be a cost problem, for 100 junk vtes cards are worth almost nothing. I mean, they must be cheaper than a sandwich or any travel to a tournament place, or to print the cards on thick paper. So what it is? Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > What is the reason not to follow the rules? It can't be a cost problem, for 100 junk vtes cards are worth almost nothing > Hey, Please do not misunderstand me, it is not a rebel joke of mine. I am just wondering why the rules still ask players to have genuine cards during events that allow full proxies decks. I undestand that this part of the rules did make sense when the only allowed proxies cards were the VEKN pdf sets. If someone does not have any cards, he can print proxies but he cannot go to an event that allows proxies. If nobody thinks this could be simplify, please just forget my two posts and have a good day Warm regards, Rémi. I am Rémi Cavaillé (), Barcelona (Spain). I was the Prince of Lyon (France) around 2003. I am now Official Judge and the 5th Prince of Barcelona. Enjoy VTES, Marvel Champions, L5R and more gaming activities in Khan Jugar: sites.google.com/view/khanjugar/

My two euro cents: In VtES tournaments one should use VtES cards. Even if they have printed paper in front of them. I think is actually a mater of IP legality. The case where a player is interested enough to go to a tournament, but does not own at least 102 VtES cards, seems to be very unlikely. If you multiply that with the probability of a VtES tournament scene without anyone donating any set of 102 cards to new players, then it is almost impossible. That is why I don't think there's any problem.

> Rémi wrote: > > > Ankha wrote: > > What is the reason not to follow the rules? It can't be a cost problem, for 100 junk vtes cards are worth almost nothing > > > Hey, > > Please do not misunderstand me, it is not a rebel joke of mine. > I am just wondering why the rules still ask players to have genuine cards during events that allow full proxies decks. I undestand that this part of the rules did make sense when the only allowed proxies cards were the VEKN pdf sets. > If someone does not have any cards, he can print proxies but he cannot go to an event that allows proxies. > > If nobody thinks this could be simplify, please just forget my two posts and have a good day > Warm regards, > Rémi. > The rules presented here were the exact proposition made to Paradox, to which they gave their consent. I don't think it's a good idea to write them: "finally, some players want to play VTES with cards from other card games, can we change our agreement?" But you know the French saying: "give them a hand, they take the arm". Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Honestly no one cares what will be in the sleeves, as long as it is a card... Imagine the time lost to check all decks for that ! (And I don't believe a lot ofplayers will play with other cards ) Pentex Board of Directors Prince of Oye Plage Alastor Grand Nord

> Vlad wrote: > Honestly no one cares what will be in the sleeves, as long as it is a card... > Imagine the time lost to check all decks for that ! > > (And I don't believe a lot ofplayers will play with other cards ) > Not checking is one thing. Violating knowingly a tournament rule is another. Would you encourage people to violate the rules? If not, what is the problem in using V:TES cards to play V:TES and respecting the rules? Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > What is the reason not to follow the rules? It can't be a cost problem, for 100 junk vtes cards are worth almost nothing. I mean, they must be cheaper than a sandwich or any travel to a tournament place, or to print the cards on thick paper. > > So what it is? > You answered a question with a question. I think the poster raises a legitimate question, to which I am sure there is a much better answer than the one you provided. What is the reason for the requirement that proxies include genuine cards with printed paper? Why was this requirement proposed to Paradox? Requiring actual VTES cards for use with proxies is an added barrier to entry to tournaments. Consider the players who sold their collections ages ago but now want to get back into tournament-level VTES with proxies. These people probably don't want the hassle of buying old, used junk cards to re-enter the game. Sure, the cards are cheap. But you can't just walk into a store and pick them up from the shelf. And nobody wants to buy old, crappy cards no matter how cheap they are. These may seem like small considerations, but they are significant barriers to entry.

> Rémi wrote: > Dear all, > > Thanks, that sounds some good news. May I ask why you still ask to print on standard paper and use a genuine cards to use proxies? > I guess Damnans or Pascal or somebody in charge could answer this (anytime soon preferably!), but my take is that if you force people to use VTES cards as backs, you will never get into any kind of argument with people using cards that are ALMOST the exact measurements, thickness and so on. It prevents that kind of cheating. Do you understand what I am saying Rémi? "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Brum wrote: > I think is actually a mater of IP legality. > How? If the use of proxy prints does not infringe IP rights, then the presence of an official piece of cardboard is irrelevant. If the use of proxy prints does infringe IP rights, the presence of an official piece of cardboard does not alter that. If I've infringed artistic copyright held by an artist or by Wizards/Hasbro, the fact that there is a piece of cardboard in there with artwork by a different artist produced by White Wolf doesn't change any element of the infringement. And the same would potentially apply for more or less any other potential IP infringement, to the extent that any intellectual property still vests in Hasbro/Wizards. (Anything owned by White Wolf/CCP and transferred to Paradox is fine in this scenario.)

> TwoRazorReign wrote: > These people probably don't want the hassle... > VtES is a complicated game with no real rewards for tournament wins in which one player can easily spoil 2-hour game for 4 others. People, who "don't want the hassle" will make the tournament worse and after it will be generally lost to comunity anyway. It's better for them to not come at the first place. NC Russia

> TwoRazorReign wrote: > Requiring actual VTES cards for use with proxies is an added barrier to entry to tournaments. Consider the players who sold their collections ages ago but now want to get back into tournament-level VTES with proxies. These people probably don't want the hassle of buying old, used junk cards to re-enter the game. Sure, the cards are cheap. But you can't just walk into a store and pick them up from the shelf. And nobody wants to buy old, crappy cards no matter how cheap they are. These may seem like small considerations, but they are significant barriers to entry. > Please read what Brum just wrote. Anyone can easily get 102 VTES cards from any of the current players. Not any kind of restricting matter! Besides, it is easier to use the exact same rules that we already use with the new PDF sets! Finnish Politics!

> elotar wrote: > > > TwoRazorReign wrote: > > These people probably don't want the hassle... > > > VtES is a complicated game with no real rewards for tournament wins in which one player can easily spoil 2-hour game for 4 others. > > People, who "don't want the hassle" will make the tournament worse and after it will be generally lost to comunity anyway. It's better for them to not come at the first place. > Oh really? It sounds to me like you're scared that the guy who doesn't own any actual cards is going to end up with more VPs than you. > Lönkka wrote: > > > TwoRazorReign wrote: > > Requiring actual VTES cards for use with proxies is an added barrier to entry to tournaments. Consider the players who sold their collections ages ago but now want to get back into tournament-level VTES with proxies. These people probably don't want the hassle of buying old, used junk cards to re-enter the game. Sure, the cards are cheap. But you can't just walk into a store and pick them up from the shelf. And nobody wants to buy old, crappy cards no matter how cheap they are. These may seem like small considerations, but they are significant barriers to entry. > > > Please read what Brum just wrote. > Anyone can easily get 102 VTES cards from any of the current players. > Not any kind of restricting matter! > > Besides, it is easier to use the exact same rules that we already use with the new PDF sets! > Sure it's easier, but it's still restricting those that don't own any cards from tournaments. Why have this restriction? If somebody wants to play in a tournament of VTES, a game that has been out of print for 6 years now with no immediate future of going back into print, they should be able to play in the tournament. And that's generous of you to be willing to lend your cards to players who show up to tournaments without any cards. However, it should not be an expectation that players should hand out their cards for other players to borrow. People can easily forget to return them, or cards may get lost, or someone may just decide to start their own collection by stealing your cards...

> TwoRazorReign wrote: > And that's generous of you to be willing to lend your cards to players who show up to tournaments without any cards. However, it should not be an expectation that players should hand out their cards for other players to borrow. People can easily forget to return them, or cards may get lost, or someone may just decide to start their own collection by stealing your cards... > I think it was more cards given rather than cards lent. I have plenty of crappy promo cards to give for instance. I'm not expecting people to do the same, but I know that other players would do the same willingly. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Pascal wrote: > As we just received their answer, the implementation of the checkbox on the Event Module Creation isn't fully complete, and we kindly ask for your patience before creating Proxy-allowing events (it shouldn't take long). > Done. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Dear Ashur, > > Ashur wrote: > > > Rémi wrote: > > Dear all, > > > > Thanks, that sounds some good news. May I ask why you still ask to print on standard paper and use a genuine cards to use proxies? > > > It prevents that kind of cheating. Do you understand what I am saying Rémi? > Thanks for considering my question Howewer, I would say this is irrelevant since using a genuine card + proxy in the same sleeve make that sleeve heavier than a regular sleeve. Following your point, using proxies not in every sleeve of a deck means a "cheating" risk. By the way I 've put my first post on this thread just to say that : - Allowing 100% of proxies in tounaments is OK for people who has got a collection even it it is really small. - Allowing people without any genuine cards to go to tournament would have been better. I understand that many people does not share those ideas. Best Regards, Rémi. I am Rémi Cavaillé (), Barcelona (Spain). I was the Prince of Lyon (France) around 2003. I am now Official Judge and the 5th Prince of Barcelona. Enjoy VTES, Marvel Champions, L5R and more gaming activities in Khan Jugar: sites.google.com/view/khanjugar/

> TwoRazorReign wrote: > [And that's generous of you to be willing to lend your cards to players who show up to tournaments without any cards. However, it should not be an expectation that players should hand out their cards for other players to borrow. People can easily forget to return them, or cards may get lost, or someone may just decide to start their own collection by stealing your cards... > Not lend, give if someone needs the cards. ANYONE that has been playing the game for a while is buried in crappy commons and such. Who needs 216th copy of Domain Challenge? I rather have new players around than metric crapload of wallpaper commons. And it is not that difficult to make some straightforward common/uncommon only basic decks (see Extrala's articles on this at his blog) that can be given to newbies so they can get hooked on the game. Finnish Politics!

Can anyone show me those mythical players with 0 cards but deep enough knowledge of the game that they know exactly what they want to play? Building a deck list is much more of a barrier than getting 102 commons, and that also holds for old players who sold everything (or even those who kept a deck: remember that 90 card Gr. 1 deck? )

> Rémi wrote: > Howewer, I would say this is irrelevant since using a genuine card + proxy in the same sleeve make that sleeve heavier than a regular sleeve. > Following your point, using proxies not in every sleeve of a deck means a "cheating" risk. > But it is still better than allowing people to print their own cards, or use whatever backers they want. Only allowing VTES cards means the exact measurements, which is more important than weight. And I have to agree with Boris the Blade, if you can´t get a hold of ANY 100 or so crap commons to use as backers, you might not have the heart and commitment to bother playing a tournament at all. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Ashur wrote: > > > Rémi wrote: > > Howewer, I would say this is irrelevant since using a genuine card + proxy in the same sleeve make that sleeve heavier than a regular sleeve. > > Following your point, using proxies not in every sleeve of a deck means a "cheating" risk. > > > But it is still better than allowing people to print their own cards, or use whatever backers they want. Only allowing VTES cards means the exact measurements, which is more important than weight. > If the concern is that having inconsistent card dimensions for backing cards will lead to cheating, then make the rule that all backing cards need consistent dimensions. > Non-existant user wrote: > Building a deck list is much more of a barrier than getting 102 commons... > Not really. The VTES One blog lists tournament-quality deck archetypes. Just print one of those suckers out and you've got a tournament-quality deck.

> TwoRazorReign wrote: > If the concern is that having inconsistent card dimensions for backing cards will lead to cheating, then make the rule that all backing cards need consistent dimensions.. > Should we actually start worrying about the "problem" of being "forced" to use VTES cards only as backing WHEN THE FIRST PLAYER WHO DOESN'T HAVE VTES CARDS TO USE AS BACKING APPEARS IN THE TOURNAMENT CIRCUIT AND ALSO NO ONE PRESENT IS ABLE TO LOAN/GIVE HIM/HER ENOUGH CARDS TO BE USED AS BACKING? Sorry for the caps! Finnish Politics!

> Lönkka wrote: > > > TwoRazorReign wrote: > > If the concern is that having inconsistent card dimensions for backing cards will lead to cheating, then make the rule that all backing cards need consistent dimensions.. > > > Should we actually start worrying about the "problem" of being "forced" to use VTES cards only as backing WHEN THE FIRST PLAYER WHO DOESN'T HAVE VTES CARDS TO USE AS BACKING APPEARS IN THE TOURNAMENT CIRCUIT AND ALSO NO ONE PRESENT IS ABLE TO LOAN/GIVE HIM/HER ENOUGH CARDS TO BE USED AS BACKING? > > Sorry for the caps! > Well, no, because that player would simply not show up to the tournament. How would that player know there are people there just giving out cards? They'll read the rule that they have to have VTES cards and think, "Hey, I don't have any cards. No tournament for me." They're not going to ask if there are people giving away cards at the tournament. You seem to be defending the rule on the basis of it being not a major restriction to tournament entry. Okay, your point in all caps is taken. Can you answer why the rule exists in the first place? I still haven't gotten an answer from anybody in this thread other than because the rule already exists for VEKN expansions.

As long as all the cards are from the same game there can't be any form of cheating. Pentex Board of Directors Prince of Oye Plage Alastor Grand Nord

> Lönkka wrote: > Should we actually start worrying about the "problem" of being "forced" to use VTES cards only as backing when the first player who doesn't have VTES cards to use as backing appears in the tournament circuit and also no one present is able to loan/give him/her enough cards to be used as backing? > My bigger concern, personally, would be the player who starts playing in, say, a country that has two or three tournaments a year. They put together a deck they really enjoy with Stanislava, Ingrid Rossler, four copies of Enkil Cog (photocopied from the one in their play group), multiple copies of Freak Drive (photocopied from the three copies in their play group), multiple copies of Mind Rape (photocopied from the two copies in their play group) etc. and have a blast in some games, and reaches a final table in a tournament. Then the nationals for their country come around. Various players come out of the woodwork and make a special effort to attend because it's the big tournament of the year. Then the new player is told that if they want to turn up and play their favourite (maybe only!) deck, they'll need to blow $100 on singles from Ebay.

James, is this happening somewhere or, like with TwoRazorReign, pure speculation? EDIT: Most every year I've told other Finns that if there are cards that someone needs for making the best possible deck (or whatever) at EC, they should just send me a list. Very seldom there has been anyone asking for any cards and usually it has been just 2-4 cards all in all. At least in my experience, there has been very small need. Finnish Politics!

Small need only because we are less and less players... Pentex Board of Directors Prince of Oye Plage Alastor Grand Nord

> Lönkka wrote: > James, is this happening somewhere or, like with TwoRazorReign, pure speculation? > Since the change isn't in effect yet, and new players can't happily attend and play in (most) tournaments with photocopied cards yet, would you like to explain how it can already be happening? I mean, seriously? You're expecting me to provide proof of something that's happening that cannot happen at the moment?

> Lönkka wrote: > James, is this happening somewhere or, like with TwoRazorReign, pure speculation? > Of course it's speculation. Proxies just became legal, like, 2 weeks ago. > EDIT: Most every year I've told other Finns that if there are cards that someone needs for making the best possible deck (or whatever) at EC, they should just send me a list. > > Very seldom there has been anyone asking for any cards and usually it has been just 2-4 cards all in all. > > At least in my experience, there has been very small need. > Were proxies legal when you had this experience? If not, your experience is not really relevant.

> Vlad wrote: > Small need only because we are less and less players... > No. The needs were small because, they really didn't need any special cards. From the two other heroes I see a lot of cornercase speculation. Sure those things could happen, but I don't really expect stuff like that to happen. We just allowed proxies in specfied tournaments. Let's see how that works before allowing them in all tournaments. While we're at it, some people might have problems getting B&W photocopies so why not just change rules to allow small bits of paper inserted to sleeves to say which card it is proxying. Or you could take sufficient number or, say, unsleeved Yu-Gi-Oh cards, write the name of proxied card to it with a felt tip pen and start bleeding like it is 1999! Finnish Politics!

If it was supposed to be funny, I can't find anything to laugh about what you said... Pentex Board of Directors Prince of Oye Plage Alastor Grand Nord

> Lönkka wrote: > > > Vlad wrote: > > Small need only because we are less and less players... > > > No. The needs were small because, they really didn't need any special cards. > Again, proxies weren't allowed when you had this experience. There were small needs because everybody participating already owned enough cards to participate, and those that didn't stayed home. Had the people who stayed home showed up, you'd have given out a lot more cards. > From the two other heroes I see a lot of cornercase speculation. > Sure those things could happen, but I don't really expect stuff like that to happen. > > We just allowed proxies in specfied tournaments. > Let's see how that works before allowing them in all tournaments. > Why? What is the reason? I am asking now for the third time in this thread: why do we need to hang onto this rule? What is the benefit of doing this? I see it being more restrictive than beneficial for new players. > While we're at it, some people might have problems getting B&W photocopies so why not just change rules to allow small bits of paper inserted to sleeves to say which card it is proxying. > > Or you could take sufficient number or, say, unsleeved Yu-Gi-Oh cards, write the name of proxied card to it with a felt tip pen and start bleeding like it is 1999! > We’re discussing backing cards. You’re referring to the actual print outs. While I agree that the rules for print outs should remain as is, this is a completely different discussion.

I'm so done with this conversation. Ta-tah, dahlings! Finnish Politics!

> Lönkka wrote: > I'm so done with this conversation. > > Ta-tah, dahlings! > By petulantly exiting the discussion instead of answering my question, you admit that requiring VTES cards for proxies in tournaments is a dumb rule that we are following for no real reason. I win!

> TwoRazorReign wrote: > > > Lönkka wrote: > > I'm so done with this conversation. > > > > Ta-tah, dahlings! > > > By petulantly exiting the discussion instead of answering my question, you admit that requiring VTES cards for proxies in tournaments is a dumb rule that we are following for no real reason. I win! > Nobody is forcing you to follow this rule. Make alternative player organization, deal with Paradox and play wherever you like. NC Russia

> elotar wrote: > > > TwoRazorReign wrote: > > > > > Lönkka wrote: > > > I'm so done with this conversation. > > > > > > Ta-tah, dahlings! > > > > > > > > By petulantly exiting the discussion instead of answering my question, you admit that requiring VTES cards for proxies in tournaments is a dumb rule that we are following for no real reason. I win! > > > Nobody is forcing you to follow this rule. Make alternative player organization, deal with Paradox and play wherever you like. > My point was not to suggest I am being subjected against my will to rules I don't wish to follow. Rules are rules, and that's fine. My point is to suggest that maybe including this rule was unnecessary, and that this rule could potentially restrict people who don't own cards from playing in tournaments. My belief is that there should be minimal restrictions. I'm sure the rules team has a good answer why this rule exists, I just haven't heard it yet. Which is why I keep posting.

> TwoRazorReign wrote: > I'm sure the rules team has a good answer why this rule exists, I just haven't heard it yet. > The answer was given. If you can't hear it than it's your problem. NC Russia

And what was the answer again? All I saw was a question answered with a question. See the first page in this thread. Is there another answer here that I missed?

> TwoRazorReign wrote: > And what was the answer again? All I saw was a question answered with a question. See the first page in this thread. Is there another answer here that I missed? > I don't think this answer was given in this thread, but I read it somewhere else concerning PDF set cards, but it definitely applies to proxy cards as well. You need to have official VTES/JYHAD backing cards to guarantee you're playing a 100% VTES/JYHAD product deck, even if you use proxy/pdf-set cards. As an organisation for promoting VTES and working on getting VTES back to print, it would be diplomatically (and legally) wrong to allow 100% self printed cards. These rules apply to official VEKN sanctioned events. You can allow anything on unsanctioned events. I don't see a big problem here, as a prince you can organise (unsanctioned) tournaments and allow 100% self printed cards. This would be great for new players, however there might be some nasty aftermath when VTES actual goes to print again, will you now disallow the self printed cards? There's also a legal aspect, in essence 100% self printed cards ARE counterfeits and IP rights owners can in theory sue you to damnation. At least with official cards as backing, you can fall back on an official agreement between IP right owners and the VEKN organisation. -1 Strength

> GreyB wrote: > As an organisation for promoting VTES and working on getting VTES back to print, it would be diplomatically (and legally) wrong to allow 100% self printed cards. > Okay, so there's a diplomatic/legal reason for requiring VTES backing cards. If that's the case, then the rule makes sense to me.

> GreyB wrote: > > > TwoRazorReign wrote: > > And what was the answer again? All I saw was a question answered with a question. See the first page in this thread. Is there another answer here that I missed? > > > I don't think this answer was given in this thread, but I read it somewhere else concerning PDF set cards, but it definitely applies to proxy cards as well. > > You need to have official VTES/JYHAD backing cards to guarantee you're playing a 100% VTES/JYHAD product deck, even if you use proxy/pdf-set cards. As an organisation for promoting VTES and working on getting VTES back to print, it would be diplomatically (and legally) wrong to allow 100% self printed cards. > > These rules apply to official VEKN sanctioned events. You can allow anything on unsanctioned events. > This answer was given in this thread. Several people have pointed to the fact that all tournament decks should be built only with cards of said game. We also gave arguments to the fact that before, a player had to gather the real cards and this is now gigantically easier, as now all one needs are any copies of any cards. Mr. TwoRazorReign has been dismissive of any arguments that he doesn't agree with, to the point of denying their existence, although they are a few post before. I do not wish to speculate why he is displaying this attitude, only that it has driven people away from the conversation.

> This answer was given in this thread. > Several people have pointed to the fact that all tournament decks should be built only with cards of said game. > We also gave arguments to the fact that before, a player had to gather the real cards and this is now gigantically easier, as now all one needs are any copies of any cards. > I think what's happening is you and others are misunderstanding the question. Remi asked "May I ask why you still ask to print on standard paper and use a genuine cards to use proxies?" Until GreyB mentioned there was a diplomatic/legal reason for it, I had yet to see a genuine answer to this question. I am sorry you feel I am being dismissive, but I think that question deserves an answer other than the one you give above here. After reading GreyB's answer, I think the rule makes sense and is a good one.

Dear all, > TwoRazorReign wrote: > > > GreyB wrote: > > As an organisation for promoting VTES and working on getting VTES back to print, it would be diplomatically (and legally) wrong to allow 100% self printed cards. > > > Okay, so there's a diplomatic/legal reason for requiring VTES backing cards. If that's the case, then the rule makes sense to me. > I do not agree. It would make sense only if using proxies were a legally problem. I do not even imagine a company saying : "Wait! I am thinking about printing a cardgame, I do not want anyone to print their own proxies because it will be a problem in the future." I am sure that the question has never been asked to that company. I mean allowing players without any cards to create their own proxies has only one risk : maybe they could discover VTES... which could even lead to transform them into future customers. It means free advertisment campaign for a product which is not yet confirmed. Why do almost every card game show pre-released cards on the web before selling them? People can try them, talks about them. At the end people buys more product. By the way, people who has the cards still does not want to play with people who does not, there is nothing else to add there. Regards, Rémi. I am Rémi Cavaillé (), Barcelona (Spain). I was the Prince of Lyon (France) around 2003. I am now Official Judge and the 5th Prince of Barcelona. Enjoy VTES, Marvel Champions, L5R and more gaming activities in Khan Jugar: sites.google.com/view/khanjugar/

> Rémi wrote: > I mean allowing players without any cards to create their own proxies has only one risk : maybe they could discover VTES... which could even lead to transform them into future customers. It means free advertisment campaign for a product which is not yet confirmed. Why do almost every card game show pre-released cards on the web before selling them? People can try them, talks about them. At the end people buys more product. > Not really a problem as so few places are selling VETS any more... > Rémi wrote: > By the way, people who has the cards still does not want to play with people who does not, there is nothing else to add there. > Wow, really!? At least in Finland the more experienced players are really quite welcoming to newer ones. Finnish Politics!