So they are adding cards for:
- Blood Brothers
- Gargoyles
- Harbingers of Skulls
- Samedi
- Salubri anitribu
Question, what do you think each or some of the clans need? Just the general outlines.
For example:
Gargoyles:
- More independent non-slave Gargoyles, cut away (!)Tremere link.
- Pool gain/management
- Ousting strategy
-1 Strength
I have played some Blood Brothers and I think they could really use a clan specifik hunting ground something like Code of Samuel like the !Salubris have. The combat decks maybe not need it as much but when you go for a tap n bleed och SB deck they need it. They have good blood gain in some cards but when you have zero blood during you untap none of thous cards will help you. I also think a balanced bleed action would be very nice for them.
Samedi needs some pool damage effect, something like Enticment and or contagion. It would also be fun if there ally concept gets better in some way. They could also need a boost in the combat department, something that could cancel S:CE for an example.
!Salubris could also use a bleed action/modifier. Dont know lorewise but blackhand !Salubris would be very intressting and could make a few new deck types.
National Coordinator of Sweden
Three clans, arguably four given how little AUS there is among !Salburi, need bleed bounce.
Other than that, I tend towards things I'd like to see rather than just seeing better cards that make clans alike.
Blood Brothers - Some way to interact with votes besides rush or sketchy intercept.
Gargoyles - Non-slave Gargoyles, Tupdog getting banned, Path for non-slave Gargoyles, Pot/For card (which might actually be BB relevant) a way to interact with votes.
Harbingers - Aus/Nec card that does something significant (and yet not, say, Sensory Deprivationish), transfer/crypt acceleration so that you can actually get out all of your uniques in a timely manner, For/Nec that may or may not synergize with Blessed Resilience, something vote relevant, maybe a babymaker though I don't know how much of a thematic fail that might be, how about an ally?
Samedi - Path, no really a Path so that their awful combat cards are less awful, more intercept because GroaningCorpse.dec could use some help, could also come up with a better rush card just to get more play out of Groaning Corpse - rush/intercept!!, a way to interact with votes.
Salubri anti - A reason not to play obnoxious Hide the Heart decks, a way to interact with votes.
Traveller Card Game
Re: Samedi, I agree that they need cost reduction cards (Thanatosis and also equipment given their international underground trading reputation). However, after making and testing a path card last year, I found I preferred a tappable Samedi-specific trifle that reduced the blood cost of Thanatosis cards once each turn. Mostly this was due to Samedi having no intercept so the Path got destroyed immediately each time I bought it out. It wasn't as powerful as Fatuus Mastery though, but it wasn't an action to put it in play, either.
Originally it also gave the vampire a blood, but to be honest it would make more sense to give the Samedi another level of Thanatosis if they didn't have it/basic level. That was my finding in my group though - depends on your players!
Re: new cards suggestions, a great way to develop them is to trial the cards in your local playgroup as well. If you haven't heard about it before, VTES.net has a nifty design tool.
I think all of these clans could be more, but Gargoyles are awful. Samedi are due for support in non-dead hooker bleeding.
!salubri are great walls, needing for little, maybe crypt help. Laibon ones could use help, sort of, sabbat get abbot.
HoS have necromancy, which sucks. If new comes out, they and the same I can get help. They're all cappadocians.
BB are good, need some pool defense (maybe) but REALLY just could use a trifle rescue another Bob for cheap or free, and standing strength increase.
Gargolyes... Non slave ones I've tried using for ages. Its almost easier to list what they have, but they need:
Standing strength bonus.
Either broken pool defense or easy reduction in cost of rock cat, stone dog, razor bat.
Crypt support (adv of ALL unique slaves as non slaves, actual new faces too)
Bleed help.
These take priority over fluff "free another gargoyle" stuff, because its what they NEED to be a real clan.
So, every clan needs stuff, but gargoyles are the only clan without anything that doesn't suck without tupdog, so everyone else gets different tactics, they need the "I block, I fight" schtick to work at all.
I'll throw in submission stuff where appropriate.
I haven't deeply analised bloodlines, but I think that just giving them more toys to be playable "alone" will be defiating whole idea of clan/bloodline division. And it'll be generally boring.
There are not so many effects in VtES, so generally it'll lead us just for the copy of existing clan deck with some minor "flavour". Like Kiasud SB. Yea, it's powerfull, but what meaningfull it really adds to the game which already got Malks and Lasombra SB?
Idea of having 50/50 crypt with different discipline spread, but which can work together, looks much more interesting to me.
NC Russia
> elotar wrote:
> I haven't deeply analised bloodlines, but I think that just giving them more toys to be playable "alone" will be defiating whole idea of clan/bloodline division. And it'll be generally boring.
>
> There are not so many effects in VtES, so generally it'll lead us just for the copy of existing clan deck with some minor "flavour". Like Kiasud SB. Yea, it's powerfull, but what meaningfull it really adds to the game which already got Malks and Lasombra SB?
>
> Idea of having 50/50 crypt with different discipline spread, but which can work together, looks much more interesting to me.
>
I'm not a believer in the idea that there should be clans and subclans. It didn't work when Bloodlines got printed, where Ahrimanes, for instance, were immediately played on their own, nor does my sense of player interests suggest people like being forced to mix one clan with another.
Having said that, the general concept of creating more mixed clan decks is something I could see the game trying to push. Treaty of Laibach is just a really dumb card for various reason, including that a number of FoS already have Thaum, but seeing more !Brujah/Lasombra decks or Ravnos/Tzimisce decks or whatever would make for a more diverse game. Bloodlines could help with filling out what amounts to three clan decks, if ... if they didn't basically function the way they currently do. The outferiors of bloodline disciplines just really don't give the power to make it worthwhile to work well with others, and, often, the outferiors are in disciplines that synergize horribly with what the bloodlines are offering.
Really powerful For/Nec cards can be a starting point for actually justifying mixing HoS and Samedi, though it also brings in various Giovanni who don't need help. Blessed Resilience was interesting enough that I already had a deck that I think went 50/50 on the clans, but that's one archetype.
Anyway, if you have few cards to work with, I'm not enthused by trying to push a role where you mix or support, as a problem with encouraging mixing is that it tends to decrease deck diversity, as can be seen with Gargoyles versus, say, DoC or even BB. HttB would have been the set to try to do more things with mix and match as it had the card slots to support more possibilities and that set feels like it really focused more on making monobloodline decks better. Even more of an extreme was introducing the non-discipline disciplines without introducing a host of infernal vampires that weren't Baali.
Traveller Card Game
> elotar wrote:
> Yea, it's powerfull, but what meaningfull it really adds to the game which already got Malks and Lasombra SB?
>
Well you get to play Great Great Symposium (or as we call it "Pysslingkonferens") and get 0,5-1 free dude
"My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."
> ICL wrote:
> The outferiors of bloodline disciplines just really don't give the power to make it worthwhile to work well with others, and, often, the outferiors are in disciplines that synergize horribly with what the bloodlines are offering.
>
This is key. Idea of giving third effect for bloodline disciplines was cool, but execution was mostly terrible.
NC Russia
> elotar wrote:
>
> > ICL wrote:
> > The outferiors of bloodline disciplines just really don't give the power to make it worthwhile to work well with others, and, often, the outferiors are in disciplines that synergize horribly with what the bloodlines are offering.
> >
> This is key. Idea of giving third effect for bloodline disciplines was cool, but execution was mostly terrible.
>
I've only used a few in the same deck as the bloodlines discipline; outferior renewed vigor to cycle a card several times. Maybe fortitude lord of serenity once. Loads of times spirit marionette for my !ventrue in my Matthias deck.
Other stuff I use outferior like nose of the hound for aus , but many things, especially gargoyles, have crap for outferior. Most vis has tham outferior, but its always something I'd almost never use for thaum, since gargoyle is who I want in combat. It also does nothing for non slaves.
Flames of the netherworld only is "do I want thaum or dai?" In Petaniqua for me, and, as mentioned, most outferior can be OK as a stand alone (the temporis thing for 1 blood in potence?) But do almost nothing for bloodline. Even the temporis obf 1blood effective management would have helped Samedi ATON more than Trujah. Its an opportunity for sure.
Outferiors were a great idea to allow bloodlines to be paired with other clans, but their execution is often flat. Take Aura Absorption as an example. It's outferior discipline is Auspex. What clan is going to be paired with Kiasyd that have Auspex? Venture Anti or Tremere (1 common discipline)? And then the ability is just so horrible: burn 1 blood for 1 intercept. Why, oh god, why?
Check out my VTES blog: Gaming with BS
I also host a google doc which separates the TWDA into clans . That means I track how often clans win, which crypt groups get used, and how many people attend events. You can access all of that info here:
Not all bloodlines are intentionally paired with other clans and the only ones that have a successful pairing either share 2 in-clan disciplines (Kiasyd/Lasombra) or have a single powerful disposable vampire (tupdog). The concept of bloodline clan pairing as a theme utilising outferior disciplines simply failed. I like the concept, but fail to see potential, it ultimately boils down to which disciplines do the chosen vampires have in common, bloodlines or not.
It takes a tupdog to happily marry 2 clans that don't share any disciplines, thats food for thought right there.
-1 Strength
> Saupiquet wrote:
> It has been discussed a lot : melee weapons enhancement !
>
> It's not only relative to bloodlines but could be pushed in this set.
>
The current melee weapons suck, why trying to improve them?
We'd rather need decent melee weapons instead of focusing on "how can I use my Bang Nakh?"
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > Saupiquet wrote:
> > It has been discussed a lot : melee weapons enhancement !
> >
> > It's not only relative to bloodlines but could be pushed in this set.
> >
> The current melee weapons suck, why trying to improve them?
>
> We'd rather need decent melee weapons instead of focusing on "how can I use my Bang Nakh?"
>
True, current melee weapons suck. Though it is possible to add cards that give melee weapons a benefit over guns, which might be needed even if new cooler melee weapons are added. It should be easier to do aggravated damage with melee weapons for example, perhaps some cards that avoid grapples at the cost of a combat card. Some cards that give melee weapons a benefit in close quarter combat while guns dominate the ranged combat.
Not sure it should be done in the upcoming bloodline set though, perhaps something for our sword wielding furies the !Salubri.
-1 Strength
Zombie Apocalypse
than: 1 Pool. tap X zombie allies to do X unpreventable damage to a minion
THAN: 1 Pool. tap X zombies allies to do X pool damage to a Meth
Maybe if they made melee weapons a "hand strike" you could use them when being immortal grapple/ or with immortal grapple like Bundi.Then possibly way more players may use, them instead of them gathering dust.
Giving melee weapons a built in maneuver might be useful also.If I use weapons it's range guns with built in maneuver not melee due to limitations and lack of value vs other range options.
I may be echoing another post here, but I've always wondered why there isn't a simple knife weapon for 1 pool. 'Strike: hand strike at +1 damage. (This strike is both a hand strike and a melee weapon strike)', which can also be thrown once per combat, like Kerrie . If a drawback is needed for balancing, inflicting three or more damage per strike breaks them (like Potence 5 used to in V:tM LARP) or Forger's Hammer can't be used on them.
For 2 pool a 'set of throwing knives' would be be appropriate and could include a manoeuvre and be throwable multiple times per combat. Or maybe that could happen if you got two copies of the first card on a minion (like 9mm ) - although that's more if a single-card solution was being pursued.
> chrisn101 wrote:
> I may be echoing another post here, but I've always wondered why there isn't a simple knife weapon for 1 pool. 'Strike: hand strike at +1 damage. (This strike is both a hand strike and a melee weapon strike)', which can also be thrown once per combat, like Kerrie . If a drawback is needed for balancing, inflicting three or more damage per strike breaks them (like Potence 5 used to in V:tM LARP) or Forger's Hammer can't be used on them.
>
> For 2 pool a 'set of throwing knives' would be be appropriate and could include a manoeuvre and be throwable multiple times per combat. Or maybe that could happen if you got two copies of the first card on a minion (like 9mm ) - although that's more if a single-card solution was being pursued.
>
Not a bad direction, but would be wordy. Real issue in vtm vs vtes with guns n melee is guns did bashing on vamps, most melee would deal lethal. That not being.a "thing" in vtes made guns matter. The good melee is worse than ivory bow.
Trying it out, the text is not too bad. And such cards would go some way towards balancing melee.
Push Dirk (1 pool)
Melee weapon. Do not replace until after this action.
Strike: hand strike at +1 damage each strike, with an optional maneuver each combat. (This strike is both a hand strike and a melee weapon strike).
If the action to equip with the Push Dirk is successful, untap the acting minion at the end of the turn.
Throwing Knives (2 pool)
Melee weapon. Do not replace until after this action.
Strike: hand strike at +1 damage each strike, with an optional maneuver each combat. (This strike is both a hand strike and a melee weapon strike). Alternatively, inflict strength ranged damage each strike, with an optional maneuver each combat.
Anyone want to give them a go in their local groups and see how they do?
Dirk sure looks angry
Maybe I'm over-thinking this, but I wonder if Angry Dirk is a nod to Dirk Gently from Douglas Adam's Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency ?
Push Dagger if you prefer
> chrisn101 wrote:
> Throwing Knives (2 pool)
> Melee weapon. Do not replace until after this action.
> Strike: hand strike at +1 damage each strike, with an optional maneuver each combat. (This strike is both a hand strike and a melee weapon strike). Alternatively, inflict strength ranged damage each strike, with an optional maneuver each combat.
>
I'm wary of this. On any vampire with a strength modifier, it's basically just better than .44 Magnum - and .44 Magnum is one of the best pieces of combat equipment in the game, really. Yes, it's not a gun so can't be used with ammo cards, but most of them are quite poor - and could be a Target card in many situations. You basically lose out on DBR. And it also has the Do Not Replace clause, but that's not much of a weakener for a permanent card. (And not even relevant if you Conceal it out.)
As a melee weapon, and one based on strength, you can use a variety of other cards with it to build up the strike. Unlike Dagger, it doesn't disappear after one strike, so you can blur etc, with it. Nor is it fragile like the Dagger. And unlike the .44 Magnum, if you get caught at close, you can still be doing a chunk of damage under an Immortal Grapple. I'm not sure I'm wild about a !Salubri using it with Sword of the Righteous to hit for ranged agg damage, either.
I'd love to see more viable melee weapon strategies, but I'm not sure essentially turning them into essentially a better gun is the right way forward.
While I don't think the idea of putting maneuvers on melee weapons is bad, I think it's important to limit them: "Optional maneuver, only usable to maneuver to close range." Why? Because you don't want these weapons to be used in a defensive manner. Imagine somebody with a broad sword using it to run to long range to get away from a close-range combat monster. Not pretty or desirable.
The range issue is key to the difference between guns and melee weapons. Guns work best at long range (their card might as well say "Optional maneuver, only usable to maneuver to long range"), but long range dramatically reduces the possibility of hit-back. That means that it's both an offensive and defensive way to run combat. Melee weapons, on the other hand, provide no such defense. Maybe the idea is that you sacrifice the relative safety of a gun for the possibility to do more damage?
I also think their should be risk to melee weapons - they shouldn't always work. And allowing them to strike at range and strike while under grapple effectively removes the two major weaknesses that they have.
Finally, if you want to resist grapples, I'd avoid making them hand strikes (as now the temptation is to run Immortal Grapples and melee weapons), and instead give them a grapple canceling ability like Joumlon's Axe (you could even have the cancellation cost a blood if you want). This seems more thematic, and less prone to abuse. But again, just theorizing / speculating here.
Check out my VTES blog: Gaming with BS
I also host a google doc which separates the TWDA into clans . That means I track how often clans win, which crypt groups get used, and how many people attend events. You can access all of that info here:
I brought this up a while ago, but do melee weapons suck because celerity/guns work so well? Would melee weapons be better if guns only minimally benefit from additional strikes?
IMO melee weapons are fine where they are with possibility to play death seeker. It would be a waste of design space in new expansions if design team add cards for such a niche thing instead of other cards.
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
> I'd love to see more viable melee weapon strategies, but I'm not sure essentially turning them into essentially a better gun is the right way forward.
>
Ditto!
Problem with melee weapons involves the balance with guns , melee strikes vs combat ends (and less so, Grapples), and now also !Salubri.
VERY difficult thing to balance ritgh, but after the initial blunders like Bastard Sword we have gotten some nice and functioning melee weapons like Weighted Walking Stick.
Finnish Politics!
Let's look at the most useful melee weapon for help: the stick.
Now, WWS goes to splinters eventually, and sooner than that if you get all TV with it, but zip gun/wws are unique in that you don't blow an action to get it, don't need to conceal/disguise it, and cost no pool. How much of an advantage is not needing an action or card slot? Huge, but we only have the 2 red carded weapons.
Why not make melee that cost pool and are combat equippable?
Well, judging by the weigh-ins I can see that this has been much-discussed over the years then. I'm also assuming that errata-ing the current weapon cards is out of the question due to the difficulties it'd bring.
Personally I'd never understood why a weapon grants a manoeuvre in VTES. Dedicated equipment like a vehicle or IR Goggles, fair enough, and the special on Sniper Rifle when blocking makes sense, but there's nothing inherent in most weapons that should allow it.
Has 'Reach' been explored? E.g. a pole-axe would sensibly cancel an opposing minion's manoeuvre by dint of it being so long. Meat Hook sorta put the principle into action.
Re: Self-Biased's comments, have bullets/reload actions (e.g. SNSs and .44s has three bullet counters for the combat, or maybe X pool cost equals X bullet counters)? So you could use them all up with a Blur in the first round and have nothing in the second round (or perhaps must spend a 'strike' reloading). Otherwise I've always thought that the local LARP house rules of 'one gun action per round' works quite well.
Another issue sounds to be Discipline (therefore Power too?) enhancements making melee weapons too powerful. What about newer weapons could be designed so that they can't be enhanced (that is, more strength, made aggravated) in this fashion directly. However, environmental effects (e.g. Dawn Operation) and strength reduction (e.g. Blight) would stand.
Should there be a new category focusing on hand strike enhancers? Brass Knuckles and push daggers are not technically melee weapons.
So, just as an example of the previous two paragraphs:
Push Dagger (v2)
2
Hand weapon. Strike: hand strike at +1 damage each strike, and you may cancel a maneuver granted by another weapon equipment once each combat. Damage from this strike may not be enhanced by Discipline or Power card played by the owner within this combat.
My apologies if this has all been suggested before - I've lurked on this board for less than two years.
Melee weapons should be:
- easier to attain than guns (and cheaper)
- grant close range benefits (A Claymore can cleave a vampire in half, beat that with your silly claws)
- have means to be used with/against IG.
Also, a lot of melee weapons suddenly wouldn't suck if they had a built in concealed weapon effect. I would gladly pay 2 pool for a Bang Nakh if I didn't have to waste an action to equip it. The deck slots that would otherwise go towards [/i]concealed weapon[/i] or stealth cards to get it out, would now go towards maneuvers and other combat cards to make melee more viable in a game.
Now back on topic, we could do something along these lines with our sword wielding friends the !Salubri, it's right down their alley. No need to fix melee weapons across the board just yet in a bloodline expansion.
-1 Strength
Quick thought experiment. If melee weapons were as good at sending vampires to torpor as Potence or Animalism, or as valuable as a .44 Magnum, wouldn't the Salubri antitribu still suck?
To bring this back on topic from the guns vs melee weapons argument, reposting here my thoughts on what I think each of those bloodlines needs most from the announcement thread.
Blood Brothers I actually think aren't really far off from being good, HttB made their combat options lot more reliable, the main thing I think they suffer with is weak discplines on their vampires, since barring Torrance circle, they don't really have any viable options for FOR or POT based stuff. So maybe some clan specific (or sanguius) cards that lets them more easily and effectively gain superior levels of their in-clan discplines would be good. Another, bit less important thing is that they could use some more blood management cards, although I suppose taste of vitae and unwholesome bond can get the job done. the last issue is that they are seriously lacking in pool defense, although with the addition of Hive Mind, they can usually get somewhat around that with simply not having to spend that much actual pool on their vampires.
Gargoyles are great at blocking stuff and staying alive in general, but are seriously lacking ways to actually get victory points, so some Visceratika or flight cards that help them do pool damage in some way would be the biggest need.
Harbingers have kind of an issue that there isn't really all that much special about them, pretty much anything you can do with harbingers, you can do better with !Ventrue, or Giovanni. So what they would need most is solid clan cards that give you reason to play harbingers over the aforementioned two clans. Necromancy cards wouldn't really help since Giovanni can use those too, although some for/nec or aus/nec dual discpline cards could be nice.
!Salubri is admittingly a bloodline I have not played much at all, though I have played against them a lot, and frankly I think their main issue is sucky crypts, consisting mostly of weenies without much superior discplines. Their clan cards and Valeren cards are very strong, if they would just have solid midrange crypt available, I think they would do just fine. And, from what can see of the half of g6 crypt that was in HttB, the intent was to give them that nice midrange crypt for g6, so once that is filled up, they should be pretty solid.
Samedi have been one of my favorite bloodlines for long time, and are one of the clans that got hurt most by the removal of Lilith's Blessing, Main thing I think they would need is more impactful actions to do, they are great in doing lot of actions reliably with fortitude and obfuscate, but they don't actually have that much good actions to do, so I think that would be good way to go for improving them. Also they could use some more defensive options, since currently their only defensive option is bloating, mostly through villeins/taps and various blood gain actions, which again was seriously weakened by the banning of lilith's blessing.