Does "during strike resolution" effect works vs combat ends?

Does "during strike resolution" effect works vs combat ends? For example, Dark Steel [obt][pot] The opposing minion takes 1 damage each round of combat during normal strike resolution (at close range). This vampire gets an optional maneuver this round, only usable to go to close range. Does this effect work if opposing minion play strike: combat ends?

No.

> alek wrote: > No. > Correct, because damage are dealt "during normal strike resolution" which happens after the resolution of strike: combat ends. (Same thing for Carrion Crows). Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > > > alek wrote: > > No. > > > Correct, because damage are dealt "during normal strike resolution" which happens after the resolution of strike: combat ends. > (Same thing for Carrion Crows). > Where does it say that it is dealt during "normal strike resolution" (whatever that means anyway)? All of the cards in question say simply "strike resolution". Also: strike resolution isn't well defined in the rules that I can find on this site. It is not a step apparently, since only steps listed are determine range step, strike step and press step. Therefore strike resolution apparently refers to only resolving strikes rather than a rules-defined moment in time. I cannot find it mentioned anywhere that there would be meaningful difference between resolving a combat end strike and a different kind of strike. I do not understand why crows wouldn't trigger during resolution of opponents combat end strike. (Even though it makes sense in games mechanics sense that it does not.) My point is that it is not clearly defined when these cards actually resolve Even in the case (which seems likely) that the card should say "deal 1 damage during the resolution of YOUR OWN strike" rather than every strike, then the player who played crows or dark steel could play his own combat ends. Does dark steel trigger during resolution of that? If dark steel/crows/etc is meant to trigger only during players own DAMAGING strike(note that it doesnt actually read so in the cards), then what if player B plays card that gives additional strikes? Does dark steel resolve once during each of those strikes? It certainly looks like it should, considering strike resolution is not a step and I cant figure out any other way for this to work. The only remaining option would be resolving at the end of combat (which it doesn't actually read in the cards plus then it would trigger if opponent plays combat end) or some imaginary moment in time that doesn't exist before end of combat but after resolving every strike. If you ask me, these rules are an awful mess. Now, I have pretty good idea what the answer is going to be, I just wish to point out that the rules and the cards wordings do a REALLY poor job clearly defining what actually happens. Primarily because cards/rules refer to things that either don't exist or aren't clearly defined. In this particular case, the problem imo is that strike resolution is not clearly defined. If it was within my power, I would probably rewrite the combat rules part entirely by adding enough steps to cover all of possible weird cards that do things at weird times. Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

Combat end effect is clearly described in the rules. "Combat Ends. This effect ends combat immediately. This type of strike is always the first to resolve, even before a strike done with first strike, and it ends combat before other strikes or other strike resolution effects are resolved. Combat ends is effective at any range. Combat ends is not affected by a dodge, since dodge only cancels effects that are directed at the dodging minion."

> Bloodartist wrote: > > > Ankha wrote: > > > > > alek wrote: > > > No. > > > > > Correct, because damage are dealt "during normal strike resolution" which happens after the resolution of strike: combat ends. > > (Same thing for Carrion Crows). > > > Where does it say that it is dealt during "normal strike resolution" (whatever that means anyway)? All of the cards in question say simply "strike resolution". > No, Dark Steel says "normal strike resolution". This has been clarified by an old ruling (for Carrion Crows etc.), and appears in the latest cardtexts. > Bloodartist wrote: > Also: strike resolution isn't well defined in the rules that I can find on this site. It is not a step apparently, since only steps listed are determine range step, strike step and press step. Therefore strike resolution apparently refers to only resolving strikes rather than a rules-defined moment in time. > It's written in the rulebook: > 6.4.3. Strike > > During the strike phase, the minions strike each other (if possible) or make an effort to avoid being struck (by dodging, for example). Note that not all strikes are aggressive. Defensive effects such as dodges are also considered strikes (see Strike Effects, sec. 6.4.5). > > Normally, each minion gets only one strike per round. Some cards may allow a minion to get additional strikes during a round of combat. Each pair of strikes (one from each of the minions) is resolved before going on to the next pair. If only one minion has additional strikes, the "pair" will be just his strike. > > During each pair of strikes, the minions first choose their respective strikes (the acting minion first, then his opponent), and then the strikes are resolved. Strike resolution occurs simultaneously, except for a few special cases (see Strike Effects, sec 6.4.5). > > Bloodartist wrote: > I cannot find it mentioned anywhere that there would be meaningful difference between resolving a combat end strike and a different kind of strike > Rulebook, in the same passage I quoted, then in the details of each type of strike (as Alek pointed out). Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > It's written in the rulebook: > I cannot find the words "normal strike resolution" from below quote. Only "strike resolution", without the word normal. So whats the difference? > 6.4.3. Strike > > During the strike phase, the minions strike each other (if possible) or make an effort to avoid being struck (by dodging, for example). Note that not all strikes are aggressive. Defensive effects such as dodges are also considered strikes (see Strike Effects, sec. 6.4.5). > > Normally, each minion gets only one strike per round. Some cards may allow a minion to get additional strikes during a round of combat. Each pair of strikes (one from each of the minions) is resolved before going on to the next pair. If only one minion has additional strikes, the "pair" will be just his strike. > > During each pair of strikes, the minions first choose their respective strikes (the acting minion first, then his opponent), and then the strikes are resolved. Strike resolution occurs simultaneously, except for a few special cases (see Strike Effects, sec 6.4.5). > > alek wrote: > Combat end effect is clearly described in the rules. > "Combat Ends. This effect ends combat immediately. This type of strike is always the first to resolve, even before a strike done with first strike, and it ends combat before other strikes or other strike resolution effects are resolved. Combat ends is effective at any range. Combat ends is not affected by a dodge, since dodge only cancels effects that are directed at the dodging minion." > I wasn't talking about combat ends. I was talking about the difference between resolving a combat ends and a different strike. Both strikes resolve. One is apparently "normal strike resolution" and the other is not, but this difference is not in my opinion explained. The concept "normal strike resolution" is also not mentioned in the rules, so I'm left to guess what counts as normal and what does not. People may take it granted that combat ends is not a normal strike, but I would prefer it actually read so in the rules. Dodge apparently counts as a normal strike but combat ends does not? Burn an opposing minion counts as normal strike but combat ends does not? In my opinion the rules should be construed so that the difference is clear from the beginning, without the need to errata every exception. ps. Couple questions from my previous post were left unanswered, here is the more relevant one: > > Bloodartist wrote: > then what if player B plays card that gives additional strikes? Does dark steel resolve once during each of those strikes? > Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

For me it's all clearly described in the rules. Darksteel/ Carrior Crows, etc. resolve only once, during the resolution of normal (not additional) strikes.

Thank's for answers=)

> Bloodartist wrote: > > > Ankha wrote: > > It's written in the rulebook: > > > I cannot find the words "normal strike resolution" from below quote. Only "strike resolution", without the word normal. So whats the difference? > Reading the rulebook again: > During each pair of strikes, the minions first choose their respective strikes (the acting minion first, then his opponent), and then the strikes are resolved. Strike resolution occurs simultaneously, except for a few special cases (see Strike Effects, sec 6.4.5). > All strikes resolve at the same time (rulebook) "except for a few special cases (see Strike Effects, sec 6.4.5)". The rulebook describe in the sec. 6.4.5 the exceptions. A strike resolution that isn't an exception is a "normal" strike resolution per definition. You can also call it "regular" or whatever. > rulebook wrote: > Normally, each minion gets only one strike per round. Some cards may allow a minion to get additional strikes during a round of combat. Each pair of strikes (one from each of the minions) is resolved before going on to the next pair. If only one minion has additional strikes, the "pair" will be just his strike. > Resolution of "additional" strikes is not considered to be the normal strike resolution. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > All strikes resolve at the same time (rulebook) "except for a few special cases (see Strike Effects, sec 6.4.5)". > > The rulebook describe in the sec. 6.4.5 the exceptions. A strike resolution that isn't an exception is a "normal" strike resolution per definition. You can also call it "regular" or whatever. > 1.) "All strikes resolve at same time, except the exceptions". The problem is that its not defined very well when that time occurs. Using this definition: player B plays carrion crows. Then player A plays strike:combat ends, player B plays strike: combat ends. These strikes resolve at same time. Are they now normal strikes and thus crows would trigger? note; it would be better if "normal strike resolution" would be defined a step and anything happening outside that step would not count as normal strike, but thats just imo. 2.) The section 6.4.5. does NOT list exceptions, it lists ALL strike effects among other things hand strikes. It does not mention which of the list items are 'exceptions'. Some of these are obviously intended as normal strikes. Therefore you cannot reference section 6.4.5 as a list of exceptions. It would be better if all strikes that are not normal would be listed in a separate list I agree. (Edit: on second glance, it doesn't even list them all. There are some strikes not mentioned such as burn opposing ally) > 6.4.5. Strike Effects > > Hand Strike. The default strike is a hand strike. When a minion strikes with a hand strike at close range, he does an amount of damage equal to his strength to the opposing minion. Minions have a default strength of 1. > > Destroy Equipment. This effect will burn an equipment card of the opposing minion. If there is more than one piece of equipment on the opposing minion, the striking minion chooses which one is burned. The equipment can still be used up to the point at which the destroy equipment strike resolves. The effect may specify destroy weapon instead of equipment, in which case a weapon must be chosen. > > Steal Equipment. This effect is like destroy equipment, except that instead of being burned, the equipment card is moved to the striking minion. The stolen equipment may not be used by bearer during the current round of combat. The equipment is retained by the stealing minion after combat ends. > > First Strike. A strike done with first strike is resolved before a normal strike. Thus, if the opposing minion is burned or sent to torpor by a strike done with first strike, his strike will not be resolved at all. If the opposing minion was striking with a weapon that is stolen or destroyed with first strike, then the opposing minion simply loses his strike altogether. If both minions strike with first strike, then the strikes are resolved simultaneously. A strike done with first strike will still not resolve before a combat ends effect (which always resolves first), and a dodge still cancels the effects of a strike done with first strike (see below). > > Dodge. A dodge strike deals no damage, but it protects the dodging minion and his possessions (cards on him) from the effects of the opposing strike. Retainers are not protected, however. A dodge is effective at any range. A dodge protects even from the effects of a strike done with first strike. (A dodge is a strike, even though it is solely defensive. It represents the activity of the minion during that pair of strikes.) > > Combat Ends. This effect ends combat immediately. This type of strike is always the first to resolve, even before a strike done with first strike, and it ends combat before other strikes or other strike resolution effects are resolved. Combat ends is effective at any range. Combat ends is not affected by a dodge, since dodge only cancels effects that are directed at the dodging minion. > > Steal Blood. This effect moves blood counters (or life counters) from the target to the striking minion. This does not count as damage, so the effect cannot be prevented with damage prevention effects. This effect occurs before the "heal damage" step of damage resolution, so the stolen blood can be used to heal damage even if the damage is inflicted simultaneously. If the stolen blood causes the striking vampire to have more blood than his capacity, the excess drains off immediately (as usual). > > Cohn Rose enters combat with a mage ally. Cohn has a capacity of 5 and has 4 blood. The mage has 2 life. After determining range, Cohn steals 3 blood as his strike. The mage strikes for 2R damage. Two life counters are moved to Cohn from the mage, and Cohn sustains 2 damage. Cohn has 6 blood, but his capacity is only 5, so 1 blood is moved to the blood bank. The mage has no life counters remaining, so he is burned. Cohn has 2 damage to deal with and doesn't prevent any, so he burns 2 blood to heal the damage, leaving him with 3 blood. > Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

> Bloodartist wrote: > note; it would be better if "normal strike resolution" would be defined a step and anything happening outside that step would not count as normal strike, but thats just imo. > See the Detailed Play Summary - that's how it splits it out. 2. Resolve strikes. [6.4.3.2] 2.a. Strikes resolve in the following order. If both strikes are in the same class, then they resolve simultaneously. NOTE: Dodge doesn't resolve; it cancels the effect of the opposing strike on the dodging minion and non-retainer cards on him. [6.4.5] 2.a.i. Strike: Combat Ends. [6.4.5] (go to step E). Any other effect from this strike is applied after combat ends (except untapping, which is normally done before combat ends by card text). 2.a.ii Any strike done with first strike. (resolve steps b,c before moving on to step iii). [6.4.5] 2.a.iii Any other strikes. (resolve steps b,c) When it talks about step b, that's "apply effects of strike(s)", and step c is damage handling. So you go through 2.a.i, which is S:CE, and handle those strikes. Assuming combat didn't end, you go through 2.a.ii, which is first strike, and handle those strikes. Then you go through 2.a.iii and handle everything else.

> Bloodartist wrote: > > > Ankha wrote: > > All strikes resolve at the same time (rulebook) "except for a few special cases (see Strike Effects, sec 6.4.5)". > > > > The rulebook describe in the sec. 6.4.5 the exceptions. A strike resolution that isn't an exception is a "normal" strike resolution per definition. You can also call it "regular" or whatever. > > > 1.) "All strikes resolve at same time, except the exceptions". The problem is that its not defined very well when that time occurs. Using this definition: player B plays carrion crows. Then player A plays strike:combat ends, player B plays strike: combat ends. These strikes resolve at same time. Are they now normal strikes and thus crows would trigger? > You're using a syllogism: "Normal strikes resolve at the same time. Both combat ends resolve at the same time. Therefore, combat ends resolve like normal strikes." It's wrong. > Bloodartist wrote: > note; it would be better if "normal strike resolution" would be defined a step and anything happening outside that step would not count as normal strike, but thats just imo. > Better for your understanding maybe, but the rules work well explicitely creating a step for everything. > Bloodartist wrote: > 2.) The section 6.4.5. does NOT list exceptions, it lists ALL strike effects among other things hand strikes. It does not mention which of the list items are 'exceptions'. > Of course they are defined, resolution-wise: > 6.4.5. Strike Effects > > <snip> > First Strike. A strike done with first strike is resolved before a normal strike. Thus, if the opposing minion is burned or sent to torpor by a strike done with first strike, his strike will not be resolved at all. If the opposing minion was striking with a weapon that is stolen or destroyed with first strike, then the opposing minion simply loses his strike altogether. If both minions strike with first strike, then the strikes are resolved simultaneously. A strike done with first strike will still not resolve before a combat ends effect (which always resolves first), and a dodge still cancels the effects of a strike done with first strike (see below). > > Combat Ends. This effect ends combat immediately. This type of strike is always the first to resolve, even before a strike done with first strike, and it ends combat before other strikes or other strike resolution effects are resolved. Combat ends is effective at any range. Combat ends is not affected by a dodge, since dodge only cancels effects that are directed at the dodging minion. > Other strikes are not described as resolving at a different time, they resolve during the "normal" strike resolution. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

The opposing minion takes 1R damage each round of combat during strike resolution. > Ankha wrote: > > > Bloodartist wrote: > > > > > Ankha wrote: > > > It's written in the rulebook: > > > > > I cannot find the words "normal strike resolution" from below quote. Only "strike resolution", without the word normal. So whats the difference? > > > Reading the rulebook again: > > > During each pair of strikes, the minions first choose their respective strikes (the acting minion first, then his opponent), and then the strikes are resolved. Strike resolution occurs simultaneously, except for a few special cases (see Strike Effects, sec 6.4.5). > > > All strikes resolve at the same time (rulebook) "except for a few special cases (see Strike Effects, sec 6.4.5)". > > The rulebook describe in the sec. 6.4.5 the exceptions. A strike resolution that isn't an exception is a "normal" strike resolution per definition. You can also call it "regular" or whatever. > > > rulebook wrote: > > Normally, each minion gets only one strike per round. Some cards may allow a minion to get additional strikes during a round of combat. Each pair of strikes (one from each of the minions) is resolved before going on to the next pair. If only one minion has additional strikes, the "pair" will be just his strike. > > > Resolution of "additional" strikes is not considered to be the normal strike resolution. > Thanks for explaining what "normal strike resolution" means, but you had been inadvertently causing confusion by using this term. I understand that "normal strike resolution" means resolution of an initial strike (as opposed to resolution of additional strikes). Of course, the rulebook doesn't define "normal strike resolution" clearly. What's happening in this thread is you are using a certain lexicon that has been used for a very long time by players and designers of VTES but has not been incorporated into the rulebook sufficiently. This lexicon creates confusion for new players. "Normal strike resolution" is one example. To outline the problem of using different terminology for rulings than what appears in the rulebook, let's follow the steps of what happens when a new player attempts the combo Carrion Crows, Dawn Operation, and Rotschrek (card texts are below for reference). From the card texts, the player has few clues indicating that this is an illegal combination. (Rotschrek does say "when an opposing minion attempts to inflict aggravated damage," but this is fairly nonintuitive in my opinion considering the minion did play Carrion Crows). It is not until we read a ruling on Rotschrek that we have solid evidence that this combination does not work. That ruling is: "Cannot be played in response to aggravated damage done from "environmental" sources." Even if the new player were wise to the fact that they could not play this combo, they probably would not understand why from reading this ruling and using the rulebook as a guide. The rulebook simply does not explain that "environmental damage" is damage from a source other than a strike, and therefore Rotschrek cannot be used in response to the damage from Carrion Crows made aggravated by Dawn Operation because Carrion Crows does not say "Strike:" This is a lot of information for a new player to process, and having a rulebook that doesn't explain the language used in rulings is not helping matters. Carrion Crows: Only usable before range is chosen. [ani] The opposing minion takes 1R damage each round of combat during strike resolution. A vampire can play only one Carrion Crows each combat. [ANI] As above, but for 2R damage. Dawn Operation: [for] If this action is blocked, all damage inflicted to vampires in the resulting combat is aggravated. Any vampire attempting to block may now choose not to block. [FOR] As above, but vampires attempting to block cannot back out. Rotschrek: Master: out-of-turn. Frenzy. Put this card on a vampire when an opposing minion attempts to inflict aggravated damage on him or her, whether the damage would be successfully inflicted or not. Combat ends. This vampire is tapped and sent to torpor. This vampire does not untap as normal. During this vampire's next untap phase, burn this card. Note: assume this combination is played out of turn under the effect of Enkil Cog or Madness Network

> TwoRazorReign wrote: > Thanks for explaining what "normal strike resolution" means, but you had been inadvertently causing confusion by using this term. I understand that "normal strike resolution" means resolution of an initial strike (as opposed to resolution of additional strikes). > Precisely: it's the normal resolution (opposed to special resolutions such as first strike or combat ends) of the initial strike (opposed to additional strikes that don't happen normally). Or the other way round: first strike and combat ends don't resolve normally. Additional strikes are, well, additional, not normal. > TwoRazorReign wrote: > Of course, the rulebook doesn't define "normal strike resolution" clearly. > Indeed, you won't find the sequence of words "normal strike resolution", because explaining a general rule and saying that it's the normal rule is redundant. Everything is "normal", unless there is an exception to the general rule. So it's clear (though not redundantly explicit). > TwoRazorReign wrote: > What's happening in this thread is you are using a certain lexicon that has been used for a very long time by players and designers of VTES but has not been incorporated into the rulebook sufficiently. This lexicon creates confusion for new players. "Normal strike resolution" is one example. > There is indeed a lexicon in the rulings/clarifications, but it can be inferred from the rulebook with simple logic. It's meant to be a simple shortcut to something existing. I don't remember seeing anyone confused by the "Normal strike resolution" sentence. The OP misquoted the Dark Steel cardtext, skipping the "normal" word. The card wasn't properly read. > TwoRazorReign wrote: > To outline the problem of using different terminology for rulings than what appears in the rulebook, let's follow the steps of what happens when a new player attempts the combo Carrion Crows, Dawn Operation, and Rotschrek (card texts are below for reference). From the card texts, the player has few clues indicating that this is an illegal combination. (Rotschrek does say "when an opposing minion attempts to inflict aggravated damage," but this is fairly nonintuitive in my opinion considering the minion did play Carrion Crows). It is not until we read a ruling on Rotschrek that we have solid evidence that this combination does not work. That ruling is: "Cannot be played in response to aggravated damage done from "environmental" sources." Even if the new player were wise to the fact that they could not play this combo, they probably would not understand why from reading this ruling and using the rulebook as a guide. The rulebook simply does not explain that "environmental damage" is damage from a source other than a strike, and therefore Rotschrek cannot be used in response to the damage from Carrion Crows made aggravated by Dawn Operation because Carrion Crows does not say "Strike:" This is a lot of information for a new player to process, and having a rulebook that doesn't explain the language used in rulings is not helping matters. > If you take things in order: 1/ is the Carrion Crow damage inflicted by the minion? If the player is in doubt (because it doesn't say that the minion inflicts the damage, but who then?), he or she can check the rulings for that card that indicate "Carrion Crows does "1R each round" to the opposing minion (card text)." which is pretty clear. 2/ then you can have a look to the Rotschreck rulings, but you must keep in mind that all combos between two or more cards can't be described. Carrion Crows isn't explicitely described so there's nothing much to say, but the Carrion Crow ruling should be enough. The principle behind the rulebook is to keep things simple. As long as there's no error in it, it's fine. The principle behind the errata is to amend the cardtext because there's something wrong with it. The principle behind the rulings is to amend the cardtext because there's something logically unclear with it. The principle behind the clarification is to explain how a card behaves regarding to the rules. I'm all in favor of addign more clarifications, but not polluting the rulebook. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Precisely: it's the normal resolution (opposed to special resolutions such as first strike or combat ends) of the initial strike (opposed to additional strikes that don't happen normally). > Thank you. And this is how it should be explained in the rulebook. > There is indeed a lexicon in the rulings/clarifications, but it can be inferred from the rulebook with simple logic. > Agreed. The lexicon doesn’t exist in the rulebook, it has to be inferred. > It's meant to be a simple shortcut to something existing. > Fine. The “shortcuts” are missing from the rulebook. This causes confusion. > I don't remember seeing anyone confused by the "Normal strike resolution" sentence. The OP misquoted the Dark Steel cardtext, skipping the "normal" word. The card wasn't properly read. > The card was was misread because the OP was confused by the concept. The confusion led to the misinterpretation of the card. > If you take things in order: > 1/ is the Carrion Crow damage inflicted by the minion? If the player is in doubt (because it doesn't say that the minion inflicts the damage, but who then?), he or she can check the rulings for that card that indicate "Carrion Crows does "1R each round" to the opposing minion (card text)." which is pretty clear. > Clear about what? A better way to state this is “The damage is not dealt by the minion playing Carrion Crows.” Or something similar. > 2/ then you can have a look to the Rotschreck rulings, but you must keep in mind that all combos between two or more cards can't be described. > No argument here. > Carrion Crows isn't explicitely described so there's nothing much to say, but the Carrion Crow ruling should be enough. > The issue is that “environmental damage” is not defined anywhere, but it is used in the Rotschrek ruling. There is no way of knowing what “environmental damage” is without inferring it from the rulebook, which is not as simple a task as you purport it to be. You are wise enough to make this inference. New players are not, not because they are dumb, but because they don’t have the same level of knowledge of the rules and game as you. > The principle behind the rulebook is to keep things simple. As long as there's no error in it, it's fine. > Agreed. However, the rulebook needs to use clearer language. > The principle behind the errata is to amend the cardtext because there's something wrong with it. > The principle behind the rulings is to amend the cardtext because there's something logically unclear with it. > The principle behind the clarification is to explain how a card behaves regarding to the rules. > Agreed. > I'm all in favor of addign more clarifications, but not polluting the rulebook. > Providing a simple definition of “environmental damage” would add no greater than 100 characters to the rulebook. Same for “normal” strike resolution. Is this really polluting anything?

> Ankha wrote: > The principle behind the rulebook is to keep things simple. As long as there's no error in it, it's fine. > I would say the rulebook is not doing it's job then. You are mistaking "no error" with "Things are not defined clearly enough". Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech