Welcome to the part 2 of my analysis of which cards I'd keep.
I'll focus now on two non-bleed disciplines, the first one being a "classical" discipline shared by many clans, the other a nearly clan-specific discipline.
Auspex
- intercept
- ignoring block restrictions
- seeing hand / increase hand size
- bouncing bleed
Kept as is
Anima Gathering: a very playable card that creates some strategies based on Auspex support vampires Aura Reading: fits perfectly the see hand / increase hand size angle Crocodile's Tongue: interesting card in blood denial decks. Gives an ersatz of stealth (action delivery). Eagle's Sight: a signature card Enhanced Senses: staple intercept card Precognition: staple intercept card Pulse of the Canaille: a costly card but that is totally playable and interesting Revelations: an useful card, fits the "see hand" concept Spirit's Touch: staple intercept card Telepathic Misdirection: a signature card, balanced Telepathic Tracking: an important card vs combat ends (in the rock-paper-scissors aspect of combat)
Modified
Not kept Ancestor's Insight: not a bad card, but I'll keep Laibon card aside in the first place Burnt Offering: weak card Celestial Harmony: weak card Ecstatic Agony: weak card Eyes of Argus: a very good card, not necessary in the format Fast Reaction: a weak combo card Melange: an average card My Enemy's Enemy: a good card, but redundant with Telepathic's Misdirection Precognizant Mobility: wallpaper card Primal Instincts: wallpaper card Psychic Assault: weak card Psychic Projection: weak card, redundant with Anima Gathering Read Intentions: weak card Scrying of Secrets: weak card Sins of the Cauchemar: weak card Soul Scan: interesting but weak card Telepathic Counter: too weak Telepathic Vote Counting: useless card
Protean
A support discipline that combines flexibility with cheap cards (and some aggravated damage!). Will be combined most of the time with Celerity, so all the crappy "do the same as Celerity but not as well" cards are not kept.
It's quite clear that the interesting cards are very few, leaving space for more new strategies. Loki's Gift could have been a strategy card for instance, unfortunately it's too weak and limited to be reliable.
Kept as is Claws of the Dead: a staple card, polyvalent. The maneuver is always useful, declaring aggravated damage after strikes have been announced is quite efficient Earth Control: doesn't fare as well as Lost in Crowds, but Protean is less specialized so it's fine. Provides action delivery Earth Meld: staple card Flesh of Marble: good combat card with limited weakness Form of Mist: a staple card Homunculus: good card with a unique effect Rapid Change: good polyvalent support card, provides delivery
Modified Eyes of the Beast: or keep as is?
Not kept Adaptability: too weak Body Flare: not a signature card, pretty weak Body of Sun: same as Body Flare, too expensive Bone Spur: lacks the flexibility of Claws of the Dead Carrion Coffin: crappy card compared to Homunculus Dissolution: too weak, inferior and superior effects are mismatched Dual Form: crappy card Form of the Ghost: crappy card, not the kind of support we'd expect from Protean Gleam of Red Eyes: crappy card, not the kind of support we'd expect from Protean Horrific Countenance: too expensive, weak card Loki's Gift: interesting card, but too weak Mantle of the Bestial Majesty: weak card Movement of the Slow Body: crappy card Mythic Form: crappy expensive card Quick Meld: crappy card Shadow of the Beast: weak card Shadow of the Wolf: crappy expensive card Shape Mastery: it's getting worse and worse, what the f*** did the designers think? Sonar: weak card Uncontrollable Rage: omg Wolf Claws: ok but redundant with Claws of the Dead (a maneuver is far better than a press)
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Personally, I'd like to see some changes, rather than just cutting bad cards. Something much more similar to what you did for DOM + PRE. But here are my thoughts:
Auspex: Read Intentions: It is weak, but the question is, do you want any Auspex combat. Maybe the answer is no, but if you want something, then I'd leave this card. Pretty minor point... Telepathic Vote Counting: Very surprised to see this on the list. If you want clans without presence to be able to use politics, you need to include some less useful vote gain (or vote cancellation) cards in other disciplines. I use this card all the time...
Protean:
VTES has never really figured out what Protean should do other than agg damage. I do like keeping that as the core of the discipline, but it needs something else. I'd also remove some of the S:CE from the discipline. At present, people only use it for defensive combat. The other thing is that if you want it to be toolboxy like Vicissitude, then you can't cut all the intercept cards - while they are strictly inferior to Auspex cards, that's ok. Sonar and Eyes of the Beast actually allow Gangrel to block things with the Aniimalism (they have two secondary intercept disciplines which is almost like having Auspex...). Anyway, this is a discipline that I think would require quite a bit of thought, and should be rebuilt from the ground up. Finally, I'll point out that Protean is combined with Celerity only rarely - only half (ish) of the Gangrel Antitribu have those two disciplines in clan, and I think there is a substantial argument to be made in getting rid of city/country Gangrel from the game. Point is, I'd keep a few of the maneuvers and presses if you want it to be a viable combat discipline.
Check out my VTES blog: Gaming with BS
I also host a google doc which separates the TWDA into clans . That means I track how often clans win, which crypt groups get used, and how many people attend events. You can access all of that info here:
> brettscho wrote:
> Auspex: Read Intentions: It is weak, but the question is, do you want any Auspex combat. Maybe the answer is no, but if you want something, then I'd leave this card. Pretty minor point...
>
I'm opened to combat cards in Auspex, but this card is too weak. The inferior should be switched to an unconditional Press, at least, which is not very useful. I prefer to remove it so new cards can be thought of.
> brettscho wrote:
> Telepathic Vote Counting: Very surprised to see this on the list. If you want clans without presence to be able to use politics, you need to include some less useful vote gain (or vote cancellation) cards in other disciplines. I use this card all the time...
>
I've never seen it played. The inferior effect is really bad ("so you managed to call your vote without being intercepted, but you didn't count the votes before hand? or you play this card because you expect your vote to fail because someone plays a Dread Gaze, so you can start again next time for probably the same result?"). I see the point in the superior effect, but there are probably better cards such as Closed Session.
> brettscho wrote:
> Protean:
> VTES has never really figured out what Protean should do other than agg damage. I do like keeping that as the core of the discipline, but it needs something else. I'd also remove some of the S:CE from the discipline. At present, people only use it for defensive combat.
>
Form of Mist allows you to continue your action, which is quite aggresive, and Earth Meld untaps you, which allows you to take another action. Both are great delivery cards.
> brettscho wrote:
> The other thing is that if you want it to be toolboxy like Vicissitude, then you can't cut all the intercept cards - while they are strictly inferior to Auspex cards, that's ok. Sonar and Eyes of the Beast actually allow Gangrel to block things with the Aniimalism (they have two secondary intercept disciplines which is almost like having Auspex...).
>
Sonar and Eyes of the Beast are terrible cards. I'd rather play master intercept locations than those, or play more Animalism.
If I were to design something, I'd think about a card that helps you play intercept cards from other disciplines rather than providing bad intercept.
> brettscho wrote:
> Anyway, this is a discipline that I think would require quite a bit of thought, and should be rebuilt from the ground up. Finally, I'll point out that Protean is combined with Celerity only rarely - only half (ish) of the Gangrel Antitribu have those two disciplines in clan, and I think there is a substantial argument to be made in getting rid of city/country Gangrel from the game. Point is, I'd keep a few of the maneuvers and presses if you want it to be a viable combat discipline.
>
You're right, I'm playing Enkidu too often
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
If you are filtering cards for a possible reprint
1) Please pay equal attention to all disciplines. (Why does auspex get 11 cards, but protean only 7?)
2) Keep in mind the essentials. (What does a new player really need? What cards really get played?)
3) Be consistent with the guidelines you set out. (Auspex doesn't have offensive things on the list yet you select Pulse and Crocodile?)
Auspex
- intercept
- ignoring block restrictions
- seeing hand / increase hand size
- bouncing bleed
Kept as is
Aura Reading: Card efficiency Eagle's Sight: Promotes interaction Enhanced Senses: Staple intercept card Eyes of Argus: Combo card (Wake OR Intercept) Card efficiency Precognition: Seeing the blow coming is more thematic than maneuvering Telepathic Misdirection: a signature card, balanced Telepathic Tracking: an important card vs combat ends (in the rock-paper-scissors aspect of combat)
That's 7 Cards for Auspex essentials that don't deviate from the core.
I have no issue with your protean selection. Though I think you did Dual Form a bit short, there's potential in that card that'd see play if it wasn't a rare but an uncommon.
As someone (like many of us) who played the world of darkness role play before vtes, I think Vtes demonstrates what Protean should do, the source material explains how versatile and flexible it is as a discipline (very much like many other disciplines, like Chemistry for example).
We know Protean allows the vampire to manipulate/transform their physical form into something else, such as growing animal claws, change into a form of a wolf/bats, or transform into mist/meld into the earth and so on. There are great cards that demonstrate this in vtes, however I do agree with much on the “not kept” list as there is way too much “card spam” for this discipline and indeed most disciplines in Vtes, which often confuses/overwhelm the hell out of new/returning players.
Only one card that does aggravated hand damage, maneuver, prevent, strike combat ends is really needed. As a multitude of these cards that do similar or the same thing is a waste of a printing slot and can be a little confusing for new players.
I also think Sonar and Eyes of the Beast are good strong cards that I (and my meta) use all the time in protean heavy Gangrel decks, one example:-with Jacob Fermor, Gunnar, Calvin Cleaver’ Fergus Alexander, Lillian, Robert Price. And my Blood brother Kiev Circle deck. I also use intercept locations in these decks aswell. However often locations are stolen, contested, or arson’d ect. I use Sonar & Eyes of the Beast in my animalism/protean Gangrel Gather deck to guard (with animalism) against Gather and my pool being negatively effected.
If a reprint of old card set and/or a new set was done for new/returning/existing players, cards that build a good foundation and are useful for players would be great. With less multiple cards that do the same effect would awesome.
Regarding Auspex, I think My Enemy's Enemy and Telepathic Counter deserve better.
Given the restriction on not stacking the same reaction cards, MEE is important to have and also provides some additional intercept if needed.
As for TC, there are not too many bleed reduction cards and it is not bad to have an alternative defense mechanism other than block or bounce that does not tap or cost blood.
Regarding Protean, I think the discipline needs maneuvers to land that agro poke, so at least one of form of the ghost or quick meld should be kept if you want to prevent Protean combat to be hosed by a Magnum .44.
> Maddog wrote:
> I also think Sonar and Eyes of the Beast are good strong cards that I (and my meta) use all the time in protean heavy Gangrel decks, one example:-with Jacob Fermor, Gunnar, Calvin Cleaver’ Fergus Alexander, Lillian, Robert Price. And my Blood brother Kiev Circle deck. I also use intercept locations in these decks aswell. However often locations are stolen, contested, or arson’d ect. I use Sonar & Eyes of the Beast in my animalism/protean Gangrel Gather deck to guard (with animalism) against Gather and my pool being negatively effected.
>
I've never seen these cards played, and their restrictions (not replacing, only against action) make them look extra weak.
Now, if you say that they are good cards you play regularily without complain, they should probably be added to the list, though I'd probably bump them up a bit.
> Borrelstein wrote:
> Regarding Auspex, I think My Enemy's Enemy and Telepathic Counter deserve better.
> Given the restriction on not stacking the same reaction cards, MEE is important to have and also provides some additional intercept if needed.
>
I know MEE is an interesting card, but there's no room for two bounces in the list. Plus, the "bleed your predator" aspect doesn't fit in a base set.
> Borrelstein wrote:
> As for TC, there are not too many bleed reduction cards and it is not bad to have an alternative defense mechanism other than block or bounce that does not tap or cost blood.
>
It's not because it does something unique that it should be included. TC is a bad card, that's all.
> Borrelstein wrote:
> Regarding Protean, I think the discipline needs maneuvers to land that agro poke, so at least one of form of the ghost or quick meld should be kept if you want to prevent Protean combat to be hosed by a Magnum .44.
>
Probably, but those cards are never played for good reason: they suck. Hopefully, you have plenty of other cards to help you against a .44, such as Drawing out the Beast or Terror Frenzy in Animalism, or Swallowed by the Night in Obfuscate, or maneuvers in Celerity or in Fortitude. Or even a Fake Out.
Or another simple alternative: why don't you play your Claws of the Dead for maneuver?
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
> Pulse of the Canaille: a costly card but that is totally playable and interesting
>
Pulse of the Canaille isn't unplayable, but it is very expensive for what it is. I'd be tempted to not put it in a reprint set if you're hoping to use it to attract new players.
> Ankha wrote:
> Telepathic Vote Counting: useless card
>
I'd put in a small plea for TVC. It's not Dreams of the Sphinx or Govern the Unaligned level, but it does turn up in decks a bit. In a low vote environment, it's not that bad, though it requires some thought.
One of the problems with some 'base sets' we've had is that - to my mind - they've sometimes been too exclusive in where certain tech goes. It's nice that Obfuscate is good at stealth, but it's also nice that there are options from Protean, Obtenebration or wherever else. It's nice that Presence is a good voting discipline, but it's probably helpful if a few other disciplines have some access to voting tech. Otherwise, you can find that you have decks that feel quite silo-ed. So even if it's not TVC, it would be nice to think about where politics slots into some non-Presence disciplines.
I see that your concept is to keep previously printed cards as is, but then to re-launch VTES as essentially a limited "curated" set.
Have you thought about the overall set you're proposing? For instance, there are more Auspex cards that make the cut than there are Protean cards. Does that mean Protean would have fewer cards?
I also think that it's important that the basic discipline powers from the RGP be represented in any set by name. That would require a re-design, not just using old cards. For instance Psychic Projection and Form of the Ghost are the level 5 powers of Auspex and Protean, respectively. Cards by that name should be in the card game.
When I look at the design of Jyhad, I think it was a weakness to limit intercept to Auspex with a little to Animalism, and to limit stealth to Obfuscate with a little to Protean. I think Celerity should also have had minor stealth and Protean minor intercept. Maybe Sonar is weak, I don't know. Gleam of the Red Eyes should have given intercept instead of combat abilities since it allows you to see in the dark. But that's a redesign, not a choice among previously designed cards. Protean should give combat offense and defense, stealth, and intercept, IMO.
Any redesign would have to consider the clans getting each discipline's cards and what the basic strategy or strategies of that clan are going to be. Intercept combat should be the strength of Gangrel in a reboot, and that would have to include Protean intercept.
BTW, "polyvalent" is translated as "versatile" in English. The spellchecker doesn't alert you because "polyvalent" is a term in chemistry that means "multiple valences."
> AaronC wrote:
> I also think that it's important that the basic discipline powers from the RGP be represented in any set by name. That would require a re-design, not just using old cards. For instance Psychic Projection and Form of the Ghost are the level 5 powers of Auspex and Protean, respectively. Cards by that name should be in the card game.
>
No need for this as it'll become a humonguous quaqmire we will never wade out from!
The original Jyhad set had The Ritual of the Bitter Rose as mere action modifier (=available for all) while it is a Thaumaturgy ritual. Does this really affect playability? Does this give access to cool card names?
Finnish Politics!
> AaronC wrote:
> I see that your concept is to keep previously printed cards as is, but then to re-launch VTES as essentially a limited "curated" set.
>
> Have you thought about the overall set you're proposing? For instance, there are more Auspex cards that make the cut than there are Protean cards. Does that mean Protean would have fewer cards?
>
Yes, that's no big deal. There's no point in adding cards that don't fit for the sake of having the same number of cards in each discipline.
[/quote]
> AaronC wrote:
> BTW, "polyvalent" is translated as "versatile" in English. The spellchecker doesn't alert you because "polyvalent" is a term in chemistry that means "multiple valences."
>
I stand corrected.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director