Official release: January 17, 2016
Legal for Tournament Play: February 16, 2016
Vampire: Elder Kindred Network's fourth expansion for Vampire: the Eternal Struggle is Anarchs Unbound, which focuses on the rabble-rousing revolutionaries of the Anarch Movement - those Kindred who reject the Traditions of the Camarilla and stifling order of their elders. The expansion is released in PDF format.
The set contains 24 crypt cards and 18 library cards. The crypt cards span Groups 1 through 6.
PREVIEWS
RULES UPDATE
Rulebook Clarifications:
[6.1.3 Equip] To equip with one or more equipment cards currently possessed by one of your other minions, tap the acting minion (the minion who is attempting to get the equipment cards) and announce the equipment cards he is getting. If the action is unsuccessful, the equipment cards remain where they are. Strike: burn equipment: When declaring such strikes, choose which equipment on the opposing minion the strike will burn. [new term] [6.1.2 Hunt] Note that a ready vampire with no blood must hunt (and cannot take any action except a hunt action).
Banned cards:
The following cards are banned from Tournament Play starting February 16, 2016.
Anthelios, The Red Star Temptation of Greater Power Seeds of Corruption
DOWNLOADS
Crypt cards . Size: 41,7 MB Crypt print sheet (file with multiple copies -from 1 to 9- of the same card per page). Size: 41,8 MB Library cards Size: 30,2 MB Library print sheet (file with multiple copes -from 1 to 9- of the same card per page). Size: 30,3 MB
PRINTING INSTRUCTIONS
Before printing out the PDF files, make sure that Page Scaling is set to "None".
www.vekn.net/official-expansion-sets
CHECKLIST
CryptClan Appolonius (Advanced)Brujah Salvador GarciaBrujah ArianeBrujah Gengis (Advanced)Brujah Marguerite Foccart (Advanced)Brujah Jenna CrossCaitiff Tori LongwoodCaitiff Maldavis (Advanced)Caitiff Zack North (Advanced)Gangrel CrowGangrel Danielle Diron (Advanced)Gangrel VultureGangrel Dancin' Dana (Advanced)Malkavian Philip van Vermeer IVMalkavian Sundown (Advanced)Nosferatu The MedicNosferatu Victor GerardToreador Desiree Narayan, Anarch HistorianRavnos IrenaRavnos Javier Montoya (Advanced)Tremere Monica ChangTremere DaliahTzimisce Boss Callihan (Advanced)Ventrue Louis Fortier (Advanced)Ventrue LibraryType AdhocracyAction Modifier BollixCombat Carfax AbbeyMaster DonnybrookCombat Dust UpCombat Eat the RichPolitical Action Field TrainingAction Guardian VigilReaction HackerspaceMaster IllegalismAction LegacyAction Make the MisereAction Memory RiftAction Modifier NetwarReaction Ni Dieu ni MaîtreAction Modifier Propaganda of the DeedAction Modifier Protection RacketReaction The Red QuestionAction Modifier
V:EKN Website Coordinator
Thanks to everybody!
It would be great, if Jussi updated the Secret Library fast and completely.
National Coordinator Germany nc [dot] germany [at] magenta [dot] de
Thanks to all for their hard work on this set, looks fun
> Damnans wrote:
> b]Banned cards:[/b]
>
> The following cards are banned from Tournament Play starting February 16, 2016.
>
> Anthelios, The Red Star Temptation of Greater Power Seeds of Corruption
>
Anthelios I can (maybe) understand, but could the reasoning behind these bannings please be explained, or could the relevant forum discussions that led to aforementioned bannings please be linked?
Also, Ian Forestal has become a Malkavian. He is sitting in the corner, madly giggling to himself that he can now play the following for a retardedly strong effect:
Illegalism with Memory Rift and Ni Dieu Ni Maitre.
He then proceeds to bleed at 2 stealth, for 2, with one titled or younger vampire incapable of blocking, untaps at the end of the action if it is successful, may SC:E in the first round of combat, vampires must pay one blood to attempt to block him, the opposing minion cannot manuever in the resulting combat if they successfully block, and he gets +1str.
Yikes! I mean, I always thought he was a great example of Dracula, but this is just plain fucking insane.....
Remember that Ian Forestal can only use one discipline he doesn't have per card so in order to really abuse them, he should have to set up a lot of disciplines first
I haven't gotten the set downloaded yet, but it seemed solid.....
Seeds of corruption? I've lost an 8 cap all-star to killing Helena for putting it in play, but isn't the problem vampire special text? Seeds is a solution. Annoying, but 3 blood, and we didn't change rules for MPAs. I'm floored. ToGP was OK, but never saw it abused like parity shift, and Anthelios was on the chopping block anyway, but why seeds?
Problem= MPA times 2+ , and we ban Lilith's, and anthelios. Next liquidation and ashur tablets, then maybe Parthenon. Why no new rule?
Again, excited by the new set, and I haven't USED seeds in years, but it was a solution, now its off the table. I have to torp mmpa sources. Insult to injury, my Anson combat deck can't recur haven uncovered to my hand to do it.....
Yes, can we please get an explanation, or directions to a link, for each of the banned cards for a better understanding for their exile?
Prince of Puyallup
> Hakuron wrote:
> It would be great, if Jussi updated the Secret Library fast and completely.
>
Just heard from Jussi. He says he can't get to it this upcoming week, but possibly the week after.
@blooded sand. Ill wait for the official reply by the rules guy.
But during playtesting, we were specifically told that Ian Forestal can only fake one discipline on these kind of cards. I think they just forgot to add that rule when they posted the new set.
I think the ban on Anthelios and Seeds of Corruption is stupid.
Especially the ban on Seeds of Corruption. I think it's a complete overreaction. If you don't like Seeds of Corruption, play a wall deck and block it.
> BenPeal wrote:
> Just heard from Jussi. He says he can't get to it this upcoming week, but possibly the week after.
>
Will he add the last set also then? The one with Mithras, Dracon and those dudes?
"My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."
> Ashur wrote:
>
> > BenPeal wrote:
> > Just heard from Jussi. He says he can't get to it this upcoming week, but possibly the week after.
> >
> Will he add the last set also then? The one with Mithras, Dracon and those dudes?
>
Yes.
V:EKN Website Coordinator
Some first thoughts:
The bannings: I will not miss Anthelios or ToGP, but I have no idea why Seeds is banned. Looking forward to an explanation from the rules team.
The new set: Nice, although generally a bit weak. I´ll return with more comments after I´d tried them all.
The art is generally nice (quite a few is even EXCELLENT), except for the cartoonish ones by Zelgaris. I have great respect for his skill as an artist, but I do not think this style fits at all in VTES (a game of gothic horror theme). I´m surprised those ones was okeyed and I hope they are replaced in the future.
"My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."
> blackday wrote:
> @blooded sand. Ill wait for the official reply by the rules guy.
> But during playtesting, we were specifically told that Ian Forestal can only fake one discipline on these kind of cards. I think they just forgot to add that rule when they posted the new set.
>
That was decided 14 years ago.
vekn.net/general-rulings
An effect that allows a minion to play a card that requires a Discipline he doesn't have (e.g., Infernal Familiar, Ian Forestal) can be used to meet one (not both) of the normal Discipline requirements of a multi-Discipline card. [LSJ 20011217]
> Ashur wrote:
> I have no idea why Seeds is banned. Looking forward to an explanation from the rules team.
>
Please note I'm only supposing here.
So, I suppose that the reason is that Seeds of Corruption removes "special abilities" that are defined nowhere in the rulebook, and that can't be defined easily. It's the kind of card that make you think when reading it: "what does it remove precisely"; and you'lll have no way of knowing it, even by reading the rules.
For instance, Seeds of Corruption on Tariq gives him back his 7-capacity. The "-4 capacity" is a drawback, but is considered as a special abilty which is not especially intuitive. I know that because I read the ruling. I hell don't know if the "not affected by blood curse" stays or not, since it's no longer linked to the clan. Previously he would be Independent and Blood Cursed (clan-related). Today, I don't know.
Maybe it will be errated in the future, but Floppy's current policy is not to errata cards until the reprint is on its way. So I suppose it's not for a game-balancing reason, but for rule reasons.
My 2 cents.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
> I hell don't know if the "not affected by blood curse" stays or not, since it's no longer linked to the clan.
>
vekn.net/card-rulings/card-rulings-p-to-z
"Special ability" includes all text except terms (i.e., it doesn't include Clan, Sect, Title, Unique (or not), Blood Cursed, Circle, Flight, Infernal, Scarce, Slave, Sterile, Vulnerability, Anarch, Black Hand, Seraph, Red List). (note that this only restricts things that are possible only by special ability - things that a special ability makes impossible are still impossible.)
> Ankha wrote:
> So, I suppose that the reason is that Seeds of Corruption removes "special abilities" that are defined nowhere in the rulebook, and that can't be defined easily. It's the kind of card that make you think when reading it: "what does it remove precisely"; and you'lll have no way of knowing it, even by reading the rules.
>
> My 2 cents.
>
Seems like weak sauce to me. Not your explanation (thanks for that), but the fact that if it is correct that that was the reason
I'm glad this came out. Here's to to the longevity of our game.
Prince of Lodi, Ca
Everyone must ride with Charon, by and by. We merely wish to know what to ask him before we step onto his boat.
Nice artwork. I look forward to the day that Unmasking is banned if we can't errata it to be "tap to give an ally +1 intercept." Way bigger influence on the game than Anthelios.
Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one.
-Friedrich Nietzsche
brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/
Aside from the work on designing, playtesting, etc, I really appreciate the level of the artwork of these new cards, which are provided for free to the VTES community.
Ok as you know I don't like to keep quiet so I'll speak my mind.
Oh by the way great new site, I like being able to go on it at work in opposite to the old one
great set, really great set , frankly great job guys!
I would like to list all pros, because then it shows how weaks are the minuses against it, but I still want to put the minuses online/
So
pros:
high quality of the art globally
delay between two expansions greatly reduced, or schedule maintained if you prefer to put it like this
at first glance, seems very well balanced, I can sense the work behind this
new three ways anarch look far better than how they used to work
giving advanced versions to crap vampires... well I consider it better than creating new vampires, it doesn't close possibilities but can eventually open new one
appolonius advanced
minuses:
some of the art is not really what I expect from v:tes.
some advanced vampires don't look at all like the base version...
then about the bans,
I don't say they are bad because I am sure they result from deep thoughts, well-considered between a lot of beautiful minds,
if I had had to ban one single card, Anthelios would probably have been top of my list,
but I am concerned that we are banning cards or making drastical changes every year too fast
I already talked to it with Pascal and I'll probably have opportunities to do again (would have done already if the little rascal had told me what was incoming when I saw him the day before)
I don't see a specific deck winning in tournaments that you have to counter, so I don't see it as a good thing that you take such responsability on the future of the game while nothing really demands it. To me, the game should have been kept as is, while we don't have a professionnal distributor on it. If you feel some cards are too strong, make better cards to counter them.
Not to be is crap. Now do a not to be that doesn't need to be out of turn and played when the event is played and you'll soon see that the Anthelios deck will disappear.
My 2 cents of thoughts, but again no hard feelings, I like what you do guys and the new set looks terrific. (well I now have 100 decks of the bibliodeque to review also...)
IC Organized play coordinator
Please contact me with any OP query using the mail in my profile
> TapeTaChatte wrote:
> Not to be is crap. Now do a not to be that doesn't need to be out of turn and played when the event is played and you'll soon see that the Anthelios deck will disappear.
>
Good cards don't, in general, vanish just because they can be thwarted. And it's important that any such counter is balanced, but it also needs to be useful enough that the player playing it still thinks it's worth the cost for when the feared tech doesn't turn up at the table - otherwise you end up with situations where you want someone else to play the card to shut down that tech, without you having the faff of including it in your deck. e.g. an alternative use, making it broader but less powerful, making it easy to get rid of (Burn Option type tech) etc.
With all that said, if you have a good idea for an Event thwarter, the Expansion Sets & Card Ideas forum would be thrilled to hear from you, I'm sure.
I've suggested some in the past. e.g. Eminent Domain and some other casual suggestions in the same post.
Well instead of ban good, balanced and usable cards I think VEKN need to focus in put site back online and in new ways to bring new players to the game and try to keep the current ones.
Someone create a petition against those bans:
www.change.org/p/vekn-against-the-banishment-of-old-cards
Fernando Cesar - Sydnelson
LackeyCCG and OCTGN VtES Mantainer
Prince of Rio de Janeiro
Powerbase Rio de Janeiro
First of all many thanks for a great job of a design team. I really appreciate what you're doing. Also special thx for the artists. All pdf sets are really good looking. This one is no different. I especially like the style of Javier Santos and Carmen Cornet.
As for the bans, I'm confident those are really good decisions. Both Anthelios and ToGP were hurting vtes meta for a really long time. Ban was the best option in this case. I don't understand decision about Seeds of Corruption but I'm quessing it was because of its text which needs too much errata. Exact effect of this one was never clear.
Hello,
I would like to thanks all the team for the expansion set. You spent a lot of time doing that for us, so really thx!
But, I was really surprised of seeing these ban list. I was then really surprised to not see any explanations for that.
We could presume that Seeds of corruption was banned because too dificult to understand, and that Togp and anthelios were too "powerful".
I could understand that Togp could make loose one player because it was targeted, but i really don't understand why anthelios was banned.
Winning decks aren't playing anthelios that much, a deck totally based on it could be destroyed only by playing uncoiling, so what was the matter?
Recursivity is always a trap in designing cards games, but why not having ban Ashur, sudario and sargon fragment so?
The players community is decresing, you have choose to wait for authorizing proxies, so new players can't start playing tournaments, now you choosed to remove one type of decks played by old players. Sorry it seems like you are trying to kill the community.
I'm not in a time taht I want to spend time in deck building, one of the reason I choose to play vtes, is that if I want to stop playing during 2 years and then come back in tounaments with my old decks I could. Now I loose, half of my decks pool, i'm not sure I will continue to go to the EC or others tournaments, if this ban is really effective.
I'm sure there are other players that think like me, maybe you should think about that players, before thinking of banning cards.
You should ban cards, only when there is no other solution to keep people playing this game. Really Anthelios was not so bad, if it could have kill the game, we would have undertand it during this 10 past years.
Hope you will react, because I'm a little disturbed by seeing a petition on change.org about that game I have loved so much...
Honestly the ban on letters was something wrong thinking and totally wrong, just look at what other cards as "Pentex, Ashur table and Mind Rape", are quite stronger and unbalanced that they were banned, a game too that with fewer players It has the great challenge to letters because the game is dead, and ultilizavam both "Anthelios" as a form of replacement for Ashur Tables now can no longer and were at the mercy of the vendors that are sure to inflate prices.
Is running a petition from earlier today to try to draw attention to these bans were for general vote, and no decision of vken, which in part is excellent to create issues, but to banish letters in question are not as strong , makes mistakes that can jeopardize the future of the game in relation to tournaments, sorry my opinion, but many of us here, we are quite upset about this decision, which should be evaluated and re-evaluated.
Players do not want to appeal phases masters?
Just limit the number of them in order.
A ex: would be a maximum of four master stages in a single turn.
Thanks for listening.
> Damnans wrote:
>
> The crypt cards span Groups 1 through 5.
>
Desiree Narayan, Anarch Historian, Ravnos is group 6 on the print sheet.
Which information is wrong?
Thanks B)
National Coordinator Germany nc [dot] germany [at] magenta [dot] de
> Hakuron wrote:
>
> > Damnans wrote:
> >
> > The crypt cards span Groups 1 through 5.
> >
> Desiree Narayan, Anarch Historian, Ravnos is group 6 on the print sheet.
>
> Which information is wrong?
> Thanks B)
>
Looks like she's using her superior Chimerstry.
She is correctly in Group 6 on the print sheet.
While I agree with some of your sentiments, zkopiosy, let me remind you that allowing players to print proxies was being considered, and that there has actually been significant resistance to the idea from the community, especially at the highest levels of competition (I'm one of those who says all proxies all the time - bring in new players!). And that movement towards printed proxies was halted (temporarily?) when it was announced that White Wolf had been purchased and that the new company had some interest in VTES. It wouldn't look good to a company if we just said that anybody could print whatever they wanted - how could they make any money in such an environment? So, for better or worse, the question of printed proxies is likely to be shelved until the new White Wolf says more about their intentions. Hopefully, if they don't move relatively soon, the conversation will restart.
Your contention regarding the banned cards seems reasonable, but I personally don't agree. No game survives by staying the same. Just look at how many players have dropped off since 2010 - clear evidence that as long as the game is changing, players remain interested.
Temptation of Greater Power is basically a card that my local play groups have made a gentleman's agreement about not playing. It simply wrecks one player's game experience. Imagine playing it on a big vampire controlled by a new player. Would you expect to ever see that player again? They think "I just spend 3 turns and 10 pool to bring that vampire out, and now it's gone." It's being banned for the same reasons that Protect Thine Own was banned (I really don't see how anybody could think that card is or was balanced. One dead vampire for one action. Sweet deal, dude!).
Anthelios may be a more controversial choice, although I personally support it (you should not get infinite recursion on things like DI or Sudden Reversal). One time recursion is so much different than permanent recursion. Finally, if half of your decks are dead because Anthelios is gone... well... your supply of decks is dramatically different than mine.
Finally, I would kind of like to see an errata on Seeds of Power that keeps the burn blood for each action but removes the special rules text. Of course I don't think we'll see any significant errata until we can actually print new cards.
---
Oh, and Mauro Ramos - 4 Master Phase actions per turn is reasonable?! The mind boggles! I think most people who are pushing to limit MMA are suggesting a return to the text used at the beginning of the game which is that all cards that grant extra MMA say "you get 2 Master Phase Actions" rather than "You get +1 Master Phase Action." Some are also suggesting that the Trifle ruling also say "You get a second Master Phase Action" meaning that it wouldn't stack with cards like Anson or the Parthenon. I'm not sure I've ever seen a deck play 4 or more master cards in a single turn....
Check out my VTES blog: Gaming with BS
I also host a google doc which separates the TWDA into clans . That means I track how often clans win, which crypt groups get used, and how many people attend events. You can access all of that info here:
I understand you, but I think in relation to Anthelios really the problem is not in it , but the DI letter which in turn was not to have your mechanic could be playing again in the same match , Anthelios is strong , however the effect and global and it not only benefits the same player , I think if to ban any letters friend, would be DI or Pentex , these yes, in Combo with Anthelios do damage, but not the gehenna .
I respect your opinion , however reinforcement ban seeds , a simple action with +1 stealth , do not make the game impossible , since the Temptation of Greater Power you have every reason and agree to the ban it.
The great problem of Anthelios if you see , it is m double-edged sword , can both be good for those who use when ruin because its effect and accessible to everyone at the table , to conclude , I think that would solve not banish the letter but restrict the use of DI and Pentex to one per game, for sure , would bring more balance to the game.
> brettscho wrote:
> While I agree with some of your sentiments, zkopiosy, let me remind you that allowing players to print proxies was being considered, and that there has actually been significant resistance to the idea from the community, especially at the highest levels of competition (I'm one of those who says all proxies all the time - bring in new players!). And that movement towards printed proxies was halted (temporarily?) when it was announced that White Wolf had been purchased and that the new company had some interest in VTES. It wouldn't look good to a company if we just said that anybody could print whatever they wanted - how could they make any money in such an environment? So, for better or worse, the question of printed proxies is likely to be shelved until the new White Wolf says more about their intentions. Hopefully, if they don't move relatively soon, the conversation will restart.
>
> Your contention regarding the banned cards seems reasonable, but I personally don't agree. No game survives by staying the same. Just look at how many players have dropped off since 2010 - clear evidence that as long as the game is changing, players remain interested.
>
> Temptation of Greater Power is basically a card that my local play groups have made a gentleman's agreement about not playing. It simply wrecks one player's game experience. Imagine playing it on a big vampire controlled by a new player. Would you expect to ever see that player again? They think "I just spend 3 turns and 10 pool to bring that vampire out, and now it's gone." It's being banned for the same reasons that Protect Thine Own was banned (I really don't see how anybody could think that card is or was balanced. One dead vampire for one action. Sweet deal, dude!).
>
> Anthelios may be a more controversial choice, although I personally support it (you should not get infinite recursion on things like DI or Sudden Reversal). One time recursion is so much different than permanent recursion. Finally, if half of your decks are dead because Anthelios is gone... well... your supply of decks is dramatically different than mine.
>
> Finally, I would kind of like to see an errata on Seeds of Power that keeps the burn blood for each action but removes the special rules text. Of course I don't think we'll see any significant errata until we can actually print new cards.
>
> ---
> Oh, and Mauro Ramos - 4 Master Phase actions per turn is reasonable?! The mind boggles! I think most people who are pushing to limit MMA are suggesting a return to the text used at the beginning of the game which is that all cards that grant extra MMA say "you get 2 Master Phase Actions" rather than "You get +1 Master Phase Action." Some are also suggesting that the Trifle ruling also say "You get a second Master Phase Action" meaning that it wouldn't stack with cards like Anson or the Parthenon. I'm not sure I've ever seen a deck play 4 or more master cards in a single turn....
>
4+ MPAs are typical of "girls" decks. Trifles should have a phase pre- masters, and at most one additional MPA should be allowed. I agree with this 100%. Even mmpa decks aren't useless with it, and he game rebalances.
The point of angering an already fragile and finicky player base is not without merit. We had a shorter banned list in 2010. Now several interesting cards are illegal. No tears will be shed for togp. Anthelios is strong, and remedied by proposed rules erratta. Seeds is not something I'd agree needed banned, but plainly people care about these cards. When they ban eyes of the dead, you probably won't hear anything about it.
I want the game in print. Period. We can erratta everything we need then, game gets new players, someone makes money, good deal.
I don't need an explanation for togp. I would like to know why NOW for anthelios, and why ever for seeds.
Back on topic, most art great, this in REAL physical cards would be amazing.
Funny how that claim Anthelios is strong, return cards to hand and can be reused , does sense..beyond the letter be overall effect , you can have 10 Pentex in your hand , or 20 DI , See you take a Deck B & S had died the same way , ban Anthelios was wanting to make excuses for simply having something to banish , look at the lists of champions deck if it is in 90% of decks deserved to be banned , I will make a
comparison with one of the cards most current games, if not the most played , the " MAGIC " is a letter in magic is considered strong , she and becomes " restricted " or " banned " , 90% of deck use "Dreams" , " DI , " Ashur " , " Pentex "which are strong cards , but no one bans , because prices now as" seeds and Anthelios are cheap there think right ban ...
"A lot of lack of what to do , that's what ."
I will gladly discuss theory around this in another thread. Our unique card pool changes this dynamic. In standard Pokemon, you have to have Shaymin EX to not suck. You play it, it fixes your hand, you pick it back up. Is $40. In MTG, you have to have a solid manabase, $14 wish a card still, x8. In vtes, you need about 10 cards per deck costing more than $2. Cog, monastery, summon history aren't needed to win in 90% of decks.bans in vtes are about total meta, not cost barriers or trying to make us all computer hack with base Hannibal.
I had a better reply, but I deleted it.....
Nice work on the release — the artwork looks great and the cards are well balanced. Like the vibrant feel of this set, makes it stand out without it being too out of place.
Happy with all the Bans; TOGP needed to go and the banning of Anthelios will go a long way in terms of bringing some balance to MMPA decks. Being able to retrieve any master card in your ash heap and play it on the same turn was waaaaaaay too powerful.
Looking forward to reworking those decks and seeing how they now play.
Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook
> brettscho wrote:
>
> Temptation of Greater Power is basically a card that my local play groups have made a gentleman's agreement about not playing. It simply wrecks one player's game experience. Imagine playing it on a big vampire controlled by a new player. Would you expect to ever see that player again? They think "I just spend 3 turns and 10 pool to bring that vampire out, and now it's gone." It's being banned for the same reasons that Protect Thine Own was banned (I really don't see how anybody could think that card is or was balanced. One dead vampire for one action. Sweet deal, dude!).
>
> Anthelios may be a more controversial choice, although I personally support it (you should not get infinite recursion on things like DI or Sudden Reversal). One time recursion is so much different than permanent recursion. Finally, if half of your decks are dead because Anthelios is gone... well... your supply of decks is dramatically different than mine.
>
These two things.
I can remember when I was a new player and I built my first very own deck. My Hannibal got PTOed by Arika and I could not understand. As an experienced MtG player (at that time) I was shocked by the overpower of that card... unhappy memory.
Anthelios gone and good riddance. Seeing the same Pentex on the same vampire for several turns is frustrating even for the player who does not control the pentexed dude.
> blackday wrote:
> @blooded sand. Ill wait for the official reply by the rules guy.
> But during playtesting, we were specifically told that Ian Forestal can only fake one discipline on these kind of cards. I think they just forgot to add that rule when they posted the new set.
>
Regarding the bans :
First of, there is a major point no-one has mentionned here. It's been 5 years since I am in charge, and in 5 years this is my second(*) list of banned cards. It does feel bad to do this, but I'll explain my reasoning. The decision I have taken is taken from the point of view of a person who has been a player for quite a long time, and also judges some events.
* Anthelios, The Red Star : This card uses a mechanism that also exists with other cards. Ashur's Tablets, Sudario Refraction, Gear Up, .. also allow recursion. To answer what was asked several times : no, there is absolutely no plan on changing or banning any of these.
The motivation for the Anthelios ban is triple :
a/ Anthelios is a non-interactive card. You can't block someone using Anthelios - which you can do with all other recursion cards : there is the Ashur's "race", you can block Sudario Refraction or any action that triggers this mechanism.
b/ (and this is double) When also using Parthenon / Anson / Cybele / Huitzilopochtli (/ ..), Anthelios becomes a free tutor for an immediate Master card. By "free" I mean that it costs no pool to use it, and it costs no card to use it (as in : your decksize remains the same). And by "immediate", I mean that the master card you've just fetched is very likely the one you'll be playing as your next master phase action, usually during the same master phase.
Now, should any of these points (realistic ways of burning events, cost to swap the cards, or usage during another phase) be changed in the future, I will gladly welcome back Anthelios in the game.
[will continue for the others tomorrow, but it's 3AM..]
I am against these bans. I see no reason to ban these letters. They have some restrictions. Requires a taumaturgia, another requires justicar and Anthelios can hurt those who put it into play.
As I wrote some posts earlier I fully suport those bans.
Also I really like vast majority of new graphics. As for the cards I see them as significantly weaker in terms of power level than in previous sets. I like the idea of making them easier to play with more than one discipline (a lot of matching clan disciplines on new cards) and that each effect is playable. On the other hand I don't see cards that would make their way to tournament scene and will impact the metagame. That's a little missed opportunity for me. Great cards for casual games though.
I suspect it will take a while for the power level of various cards to become clear, I'm pretty sure there are (positive) surprises there when people start playing around with interactions with old card base.
Personally, I think some of the cards are quite powerful, and sure to see tournament play. But I want to test first to see if my initial impressions hold up
I got a problem with bans too - too few cards was banned.
VtES is full of annoying cards which disrupts play and just made play experience worse. Not counting imbueds and all events, which must go "in bulk", we have like dozens of cards with questionable power level.
NC Russia
VEKN brings out a new expansion focussed on Anarchs..
A chunk of the community shouts and yells that new rulings are unfair and the Powers That Be are out of touch with what’s really going on.
Well played irony, well played !
> Zombieking wrote:
> VEKN brings out a new expansion focussed on Anarchs..
>
> A chunk of the community shouts and yells that new rulings are unfair and the Powers That Be are out of touch with what’s really going on.
>
> Well played irony, well played !
>
Good one!
NC Russia
About the clarifications:
[6.1.3 Equip] To equip with one or more equipment cards currently possessed by one of your other minions, tap the acting minion (the minion who is attempting to get the equipment cards) and announce the equipment cards he is getting.
In the rules every other action (including equipping) requires announcing the action first then tapping the minion.
Not crazy important but should be consistent. It is the reason why a minion can attempt to Mind Numb itself before failing since he is only tapped after he announces the action.
> Robert wrote:
> Not crazy important but should be consistent. It is the reason why a minion can attempt to Mind Numb itself before failing since he is only tapped after he announces the action.
>
That is a funny loophole.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
'Field Training' ...as a way to spread around those hard to acquire bloodline disciplines! Nice
I assume it can be stacked on a vampire, right?
^^EDIT. nope. i should have actually read the entire card!
I like Field Training, it's nice to have an alternative to Sanguine Instruction for passing weird disciplines around .
Overall, I really like this set, lots of fun new options. And to whoever said the power level is too low... huh? I really don't see that. Lots of cards here I'm pretty sure we'll see in tournaments.
> PetriWessman wrote:
> I like Field Training, it's nice to have an alternative to Sanguine Instruction for passing weird disciplines around
>
exactly my thoughts - being able to pass them out without the clan restriction is ace!
definitely gonna be trying to put together some weird anarch/bloodlines decks before I play next week.
> Zombieking wrote:
>
> > PetriWessman wrote:
> > I like Field Training, it's nice to have an alternative to Sanguine Instruction for passing weird disciplines around
> >
> exactly my thoughts - being able to pass them out without the clan restriction is ace!
> definitely gonna be trying to put together some weird anarch/bloodlines decks before I play next week.
>
Suddendly , Lorie Dunsirn can play sirens lure....
Hello y'all,
First I'm reallt sorry to see that the bans were made at the same time as the set release, and that they overshadowed it by far ; because I think it's a rather good set, and we should talk about the two things in separate threads (and ideally not at the same time).
Now, about the bans.
Pascal, I have made a suggestion on the french forum, I repeat it here.
So the trouble comes from MMPAs, right ? And by this I mean more than 2, more often than not at least Anson/Nana/Cybele + Parthenon. Because Anthelios without several MPAs is slow and not efficient (we can all see it when another player puts it in play).
MMPAs also are way too powerful with my hated Ashur Tablets (another recursive mechanism during Master Phase). And they and recursivity under Anthelios are the reason why Lilith's Blessing was banned (if Anthelios stays banned L's B can surely come back).
Also Anson's current wording prevents ANY other Toreador grouping to be played, at least in TGB decks.
But we know that you don't want to / can't produce erratas as long as old cards aren't reprinted.
SO here's my proposition :
A simple update in the Rulebook, stating that : No more than 2 Master Cards (and no more than 3 if at least one is a Trifle) can be played by Master Phase Action. This supercedes any card text, as the individual effects adding the possibility to play Master Cards in 1 MP aren't cumulative.
Period. Simple, easy to understand and apply, and would have I believe some pretty good effects on the game.
Decks based on MPAs would still be playable, but not as overwhelming, with or without Anthelios and co.
And to top it off the Toreador could later gain a clan card granting them a better MMPA option than Parthenon (but still not cumulative), to make Anson dispensable.
Opinions and comments are welcome (although I don't guarantee I'll have the time to answer much, but I know I can count on y'all for that).
Orpheus
> Orpheus wrote:
> So the trouble comes from MMPAs, right ?
>
That wasn't the reason given.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Pascal wrote:
> * Anthelios, The Red Star : This card uses a mechanism that also exists with other cards. Ashur's Tablets, Sudario Refraction, Gear Up, .. also allow recursion. To answer what was asked several times : no, there is absolutely no plan on changing or banning any of these.
> The motivation for the Anthelios ban is triple :
> a/ Anthelios is a non-interactive card. You can't block someone using Anthelios - which you can do with all other recursion cards : there is the Ashur's "race", you can block Sudario Refraction or any action that triggers this mechanism.
> b/ (and this is double) When also using Parthenon / Anson / Cybele / Huitzilopochtli (/ ..), Anthelios becomes a free tutor for an immediate Master card. By "free" I mean that it costs no pool to use it, and it costs no card to use it (as in : your decksize remains the same). And by "immediate", I mean that the master card you've just fetched is very likely the one you'll be playing as your next master phase action, usually during the same master phase.
> Now, should any of these points (realistic ways of burning events, cost to swap the cards, or usage during another phase) be changed in the future, I will gladly welcome back Anthelios in the game.
>
Not MMPA.
-1 Strength
> GreyB wrote:
>
> > Pascal wrote:
> > * Anthelios, The Red Star : This card uses a mechanism that also exists with other cards. Ashur's Tablets, Sudario Refraction, Gear Up, .. also allow recursion. To answer what was asked several times : no, there is absolutely no plan on changing or banning any of these.
> > The motivation for the Anthelios ban is triple :
> > a/ Anthelios is a non-interactive card. You can't block someone using Anthelios - which you can do with all other recursion cards : there is the Ashur's "race", you can block Sudario Refraction or any action that triggers this mechanism.
> > b/ (and this is double) When also using Parthenon / Anson / Cybele / Huitzilopochtli (/ ..), Anthelios becomes a free tutor for an immediate Master card. By "free" I mean that it costs no pool to use it, and it costs no card to use it (as in : your decksize remains the same). And by "immediate", I mean that the master card you've just fetched is very likely the one you'll be playing as your next master phase action, usually during the same master phase.
> > Now, should any of these points (realistic ways of burning events, cost to swap the cards, or usage during another phase) be changed in the future, I will gladly welcome back Anthelios in the game.
> >
> Not MMPA.
>
Bits of additional master phase tech are implicated, though.
The fact that you can use the retrieved card immediately (in an Anson/Nana/Rumors/Parthenon etc. situation) appears to be a reasonable contributor to the issue Pascal has, exacerbating it somewhat. If you used Anthelios during your influence phase (or if he could errata it to that, which he doesn't want to without reprints, it appears), that might have swayed him too - although the card would have to be subtly reworded because you can't exactly use a master phase action there and then to pay for it, but something could be found, I'm sure. (Something as simple as: "You have one fewer master phase action next turn" isn't hard to imagine.)
So while the issue doesn't appear to be "I want to kill MMPA decks stone dead", it does appear that bits of MMPA are a factor in the thought process.
> Robert wrote:
> About the clarifications:
>
> [6.1.3 Equip] To equip with one or more equipment cards currently possessed by one of your other minions, tap the acting minion (the minion who is attempting to get the equipment cards) and announce the equipment cards he is getting.
>
> In the rules every other action (including equipping) requires announcing the action first then tapping the minion.
>
> Not crazy important but should be consistent. It is the reason why a minion can attempt to Mind Numb itself before failing since he is only tapped after he announces the action.
>
Hm, good catch. Announce, and then tap.
The major clarification here was that each chosen equipment cad is announced as part of the terms of the action.
> Damnans wrote:
>
> > Ashur wrote:
> >
> > > BenPeal wrote:
> > > Just heard from Jussi. He says he can't get to it this upcoming week, but possibly the week after.
> > >
> > Will he add the last set also then? The one with Mithras, Dracon and those dudes?
> >
> Yes.
>
To be remembered, please! B)
National Coordinator Germany nc [dot] germany [at] magenta [dot] de
> Hakuron wrote:
>
> > Damnans wrote:
> >
> > > Ashur wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > BenPeal wrote:
> > > > Just heard from Jussi. He says he can't get to it this upcoming week, but possibly the week after.
> > > >
> > > Will he add the last set also then? The one with Mithras, Dracon and those dudes?
> > >
> > >
> > Yes.
> >
> To be remembered, please! B)
>
So send him an email.
Adhocracy at should say "Only usable as the action is announced. If this anarch is blocked, he or she gets +1 strength in the resulting combat."
This is the wording used for other action modifiers that give combat bonuses. Otherwise the card can be used to get a surprise strength bonus after the block is successful, which I suspect was not the intention.
> AaronC wrote:
> Adhocracy at should say "Only usable as the action is announced. If this anarch is blocked, he or she gets +1 strength in the resulting combat."
>
> This is the wording used for other action modifiers that give combat bonuses. Otherwise the card can be used to get a surprise strength bonus after the block is successful, which I suspect was not the intention.
>
The wording is consistent with Mind of the Wilds, which was the intention.
www.secretlibrary.info/index.php?lib=2083
> BenPeal wrote:
>
> > Hakuron wrote:
> >
> > > Damnans wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Ashur wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > BenPeal wrote:
> > > > > Just heard from Jussi. He says he can't get to it this upcoming week, but possibly the week after.
> > > > >
> > > > Will he add the last set also then? The one with Mithras, Dracon and those dudes?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Yes.
> > >
> > To be remembered, please! B)
> >
> So send him an email.
>
I contacted Jussi via Facebook.
Let's see what will happen.
National Coordinator Germany nc [dot] germany [at] magenta [dot] de
Jussi reports that Secret Library is now updated:
vekn.net/forum/v-tes-inventory-deckbuilding-programs/74703-secret-library-v0-9-4d-anarchs-unbound#75363
> BenPeal wrote:
>
> > AaronC wrote:
> > Adhocracy at should say "Only usable as the action is announced. If this anarch is blocked, he or she gets +1 strength in the resulting combat."
> >
> > This is the wording used for other action modifiers that give combat bonuses. Otherwise the card can be used to get a surprise strength bonus after the block is successful, which I suspect was not the intention.
> >
> The wording is consistent with Mind of the Wilds, which was the intention.
>
Also cards like Dawn Operation, Gift of Bellona (aus), Domain of Evernight (tem) work in much the same way.
Hmm, a probably stupid question, but the opening post says this is the fourth expansion done by vekn, have I really completely missed one? Because I only know of the sabbat and independent ones from before this, so whats the third one?
Hey all,
In vekn.net/vampire-elder-kindred-network/246-danse-macabre it's mentioned that Danse Macabre is legal for tournament play, as are the other VEKN expansions. However, Danse Macabre has a separate section stating the following:
> How to use Danse Macabre cards in a V:EKN sanctioned tournament
>
> When using Danse Macabre cards they must be color printed on standard paper and inserted into opaque sleeves before another Vampire: The Eternal Struggle or Jyhad card, this requires opaque sleeves for the whole crypt and/or library.
>
This section is not present for the other expansions that followed. Now here's a problem:
- Cramming a piece of paper onto an existing card and into a sleeve is a cheap solution, but it isn't very robust and there's a risk of the paper falling out and it feeling slightly thicker than a regular card (because it is).
- For a little money, cards can be printed onto paper weighing the same as existing VTES cards. You could still leave the back black and put them in sleeves. However, some discussion among judges is that the Danse Macabre rule about printing prohibits this method.
- If this printing rule prohibits printing cards on thicker paper as mentioned in the previous point, then it should be pointed that this rule also literally only refers to Danse Macabre and not to any other expansions. The other expansions have no such rule, but are explicitly valid for tournament play.
I'd like to get a VEKN sponsored reply here if possible... can we print the expansion sets on thicker cards?
> Pantsergeest wrote:
> - If this printing rule prohibits printing cards on thicker paper as mentioned in the previous point, then it should be pointed that this rule also literally only refers to Danse Macabre and not to any other expansions. The other expansions have no such rule, but are explicitly valid for tournament play.
>
The other expansions don't need the rule, because it's in the tournament rules: vekn.net/tournament-rules/4-tournament-game-rules
All cards in a player's deck must be genuine Vampire: The Eternal Struggle or Jyhad cards or official V:EKN issued cards from the only authoritative source www.vekn.net. When using V:EKN issued cards they must be color printed on standard paper and inserted into opaque sleeves before another Vampire: The Eternal Struggle or Jyhad card, this requires opaque sleeves for the whole crypt and/or library.
The tournament rules don't allow you to print or use the cards any other way.
> Pantsergeest wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> In vekn.net/vampire-elder-kindred-network/246-danse-macabre it's mentioned that Danse Macabre is legal for tournament play, as are the other VEKN expansions. However, Danse Macabre has a separate section stating the following:
>
> > How to use Danse Macabre cards in a V:EKN sanctioned tournament
> >
> > When using Danse Macabre cards they must be color printed on standard paper and inserted into opaque sleeves before another Vampire: The Eternal Struggle or Jyhad card, this requires opaque sleeves for the whole crypt and/or library.
> >
> This section is not present for the other expansions that followed. Now here's a problem:
> - Cramming a piece of paper onto an existing card and into a sleeve is a cheap solution, but it isn't very robust and there's a risk of the paper falling out and it feeling slightly thicker than a regular card (because it is).
> - For a little money, cards can be printed onto paper weighing the same as existing VTES cards. You could still leave the back black and put them in sleeves. However, some discussion among judges is that the Danse Macabre rule about printing prohibits this method.
> - If this printing rule prohibits printing cards on thicker paper as mentioned in the previous point, then it should be pointed that this rule also literally only refers to Danse Macabre and not to any other expansions. The other expansions have no such rule, but are explicitly valid for tournament play.
>
> I'd like to get a VEKN sponsored reply here if possible... can we print the expansion sets on thicker cards?
>
The rules are the same for every PDF expansion. They must be "color printed on standard paper and inserted into opaque sleeves before another Vampire: The Eternal Struggle or Jyhad card"
Other formats are not allowed in sanctionned tournaments.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
I hadn't spotted that one, thanks.
This does leave me puzzled, however, as to why this is a rule prohibiting a better alternative rather than an indication of what the bare minimum quality of printed cards is. Why not allow both ways, so you can have cheap print-outs but people who don't mind forking out a little extra can still print decent cards?
Not suggesting doing the same with previously released cards btw; I get there's a copyright issue there and the whole rarity and card collection aspect of the game would be ruined.
> Pantsergeest wrote:
> This does leave me puzzled, however, as to why this is a rule prohibiting a better alternative rather than an indication of what the bare minimum quality of printed cards is. Why not allow both ways, so you can have cheap print-outs but people who don't mind forking out a little extra can still print decent cards?
>
I have no idea what the motivation for the V:EKN team was, but speaking as someone who's judged a bunch of tournaments in the past, "sleeve, paper, card" would be much simpler for me to check than the extra possibilities for card marking afforded by people crafting their own cards. Touch the edge or corner of a card on the top of your library and have a good guess at what it is. Much harder with normal paper that's under the card.
Never had a problem with prints falling out in any game.
If you have such probs, try using Precise-/Pro-/Perfect-Fit sleeves.
AFAIK, the usage of color photocopies/prints ONLY was the fact that VEKN didn't want to peeve any license owners off and thus ruin the chances of the game being picked up again.
Finnish Politics!
> Pantsergeest wrote:
> I hadn't spotted that one, thanks.
>
> This does leave me puzzled, however, as to why this is a rule prohibiting a better alternative rather than an indication of what the bare minimum quality of printed cards is. Why not allow both ways, so you can have cheap print-outs but people who don't mind forking out a little extra can still print decent cards?
>
> Not suggesting doing the same with previously released cards btw; I get there's a copyright issue there and the whole rarity and card collection aspect of the game would be ruined.
>
1. We don't want to encourage counterfeiting cards.
2. Yes, your idea only applies to the VEKN sets and not previously released cards, but the moment you say "Sure, you can make card versions instead of printouts" some people out there will get it in their heads - and they have - that you can do this for whichever cards you like.
3. I have never heard of anyone complaining that printouts were falling out of sleeves. Not in tournaments. Not in casual games. Not in playtest games. Not ever.
4. The tournament rules have always stated that you must play with Jyhad and/or V:TES cards. If you have concerns about what the bare minimum of printed quality is, then actual Jyhad/V:TES cards should have no problems - apart from physical damage - with meeting that bare minimum. I would not know where to begin with defining the bare minimum of quality for self-made cards.