"Choose a vampire in your ash heap with superior Fortitude [FOR] and superior Necromancy [NEC] who was burned from play. Move that vampire to your ready region."
If you are contesting a vampire and yield the contest, does that constitute being burned from play?
> prestonp wrote:
> "Choose a vampire in your ash heap with superior Fortitude [FOR] and superior Necromancy [NEC] who was burned from play. Move that vampire to your ready region."
>
> If you are contesting a vampire and yield the contest, does that constitute being burned from play?
>
No: a contested card is not in play (except for checking for contest of course).
Rulebook, 4.1 Contested Cards
"A yielded card is burned."
And the given vampire had been in play. Is he really no valid target?
National Coordinator Germany nc [dot] germany [at] magenta [dot] de
When the contest of the vampire was yielded, the vampire wasn't in play. Therefore, it wasn't "burned from play".
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
> When the contest of the vampire was yielded, the vampire wasn't in play. Therefore, it wasn't "burned from play".
>
So, "was burned from play" means "was burned while in play?"
Burned "from" somewhere means that the card was at that place right when it was burned, yes. ("From" indicates the starting place)
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> TwoRazorReign wrote:
> So, "was burned from play" means "was burned while in play?"
>
If it didn't mean that, it wouldn't mean much of anything at all. This could end up meaning you'd also be able to target cards that had been burned from the crypt or uncontrolled region. e.g. Yong-Sun , Might of the Camarilla .
Note that the "from play" phrasing is used on several other cards, notably Compel the Spirit which used to be a favourite for players trying to do mind-bending things - though that more often provoked questions about what "since your last turn" meant.
Search engine fodder: Blessed Resilience, Compel the Spirit, Pressing Flesh, Ghost-Eater, Resurrection.
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
>
> > TwoRazorReign wrote:
> > So, "was burned from play" means "was burned while in play?"
> >
> If it didn't mean that, it wouldn't mean much of anything at all. This could end up meaning you'd also be able to target cards that had been burned from the crypt or uncontrolled region. e.g. Yong-Sun , Might of the Camarilla .
>
> Note that the "from play" phrasing is used on several other cards, notably Compel the Spirit which used to be a favourite for players trying to do mind-bending things - though that more often provoked questions about what "since your last turn" meant.
>
> Search engine fodder: Blessed Resilience, Compel the Spirit, Pressing Flesh, Ghost-Eater, Resurrection.
>
"Was burned from play" is ambiguous and led to a rules question. "Was burned while in play" seems like clearer wording.
> TwoRazorReign wrote:
> "Was burned from play" is ambiguous
>
I don't think so. What else could it mean?
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > TwoRazorReign wrote:
> > "Was burned from play" is ambiguous
> >
> I don't think so. What else could it mean?
>
I'm not sure, and neither was the original poster. I'm still not 100% clear on what "burned from play" means. I think it means "was burned while in the ready or torpor region." The problem is "in play" is not defined in the rulebook, and "out of play" is only mentioned in passing when describing contested cards or the research area. There is no "in play" or "out of play" regions, just "ready," "torpor," and "uncontrolled". So, "burned from play" is not precise enough language, and this is what causes ambiguity.
> TwoRazorReign wrote:
> The problem is "in play" is not defined in the rulebook, and "out of play" is only mentioned in passing when describing contested cards or the research area.
>
1.6.1.4 explains what "in play" means:
Targets. If a card is played on another card, or selects or chooses or otherwise targets another card, the target card must be in play (i.e., controlled).
If a card is controlled (which includes the torpor and incapacitated regions, as well as the ready region, for minions), it's in play.
"In play" is also described throughout the rulebook. It's also described with reference to playing cards of various sorts (and who retains control of them when they're in play), using actions from cards in play, the no-repeat-actions element of using actions from cards in play, calling political actions using cards in play, using cards in play to cast votes (e.g. Ventrue HQ), using some weapons and other permanent maneuvers to maneuver, how the Scarce penalty works, how Sterility works, how 'unseen' crypt card mechanics work with Imbued cards in the crypt...
The term "in play" is also used on so many cards it hurts - lots of cards are put in play.
> TwoRazorReign wrote:
> The problem is "in play" is not defined in the rulebook
>
Really? There's the general definition:
> rulebook wrote:
> Playing Cards. There are four main types of library cards: convictions, master cards, minion cards and event cards. Convictions are put in play during the untap phase (see details in the Imbued Rules appendix); master cards are played by Methuselahs; minion cards are played by the minions (vampires and allies) the Methuselahs control; event cards are put into play during the discard phase to represent events that affects the World of Darkness as a whole (see section 8 ). Master cards have no icon at the top of the attribute bar while the other cards have an icon there that indicates what type of card it is. A card is played by placing it face up in the playing area or by showing it to the other players and placing it face up in the ash heap. The player completely declares the effect of the card when it is played.
>
> rulebook wrote:
> 2.3. Play Area
> The area in front of each player is divided into two regions: the uncontrolled region, which will start with four uncontrolled minions dealt from the crypt, and the controlled region, which is empty at the start of the game. The controlled region is further divided into two areas: the ready region and the torpor region. Torpor is a special area for wounded vampires (see Torpor, sec. 6.5). As the game progresses, you will gain control of some of your minions, moving them to the ready region, face up (see Influence Phase, sec. 7).
>
Then each card, depending on its type:
"Convictions are put in play during the untap phase"
"event cards are put into play during the discard phase to ..."
"Minion cards are cards that your vampires and allies (collectively referred to as "minions") play. Unless the card states otherwise, a minion card is burned after a minion plays it."
" Equipment and retainer cards are played on the minion playing them (the acting minion), while allies are put into play and remain independent from the acting minion. Equipment and retainers are burned when the minion they are played on is burned."
Then there are all the cards that say "put this card into play".
So a card is "burned from play" when it was put into play in the first place, then burned later on.
> TwoRazorReign wrote:
> I think it means "was burned while in the ready or torpor region."
>
It can also be controlled but not ready (an ally that has been recruited).
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Ah, I missed that in the rulebook. So "burned from play" really means "burned while in the play area." I wonder if it would clarify things to label the play area in the graphic accompanying section 2.3, given that a lot of cards refer to this area and to an out-of-play area.