If a vampire have moved in and out of torpor duing combat, can he continue and complete the action?
Example:
Baron Dieudonne bleeds for 1
Ibn Khaldun blocks
Combat begins:
Ibn Khaldun plays "Outside the houreglass" dealing 2 damage before range
Baron Diudonne plays a Form of Mist at PRO
Ibn Khaldun tries to hit for one and plays disarm
When Barons strike resolves, can he continue the action?
*We have a ruling that says he cant if he is amaranthed but nothing about if he is in torpor*
If he uses Warsaw station just after going to torpor can he continue the action?
At what point dose it become impossible to continue the action?
At what point dose modifiers/reactions get “forgotten” by the action?
Dose they need to be in a ash heap to have effect?
References
Outside the hourglass
Obfuscate Strike: dodge.
Temporis Maneuver, or strike: dodge, with an optional maneuver.
Temporis Only usable before range is determined. Inflict 2 damage on the opposing minion. A vampire can play only one Outside the Hourglass at superior each round.
Form of mist
Protean Strike: dodge.
Protean Strike: combat ends. If this vampire is acting and needs stealth when this strike resolves, he or she may burn 1 blood after combat ends to continue the action at +1 stealth as if unblocked. A vampire may play only one Form of Mist at superior each action.
Disarm
Potence Only usable at the end of a round of combat in which this vampire successfully inflicted more damage at close range than the opposing vampire. Not usable by a vampire being burned or going into torpor. Put this card on the opposing vampire and send that vampire into torpor. The vampire with this card has -1 strength. He or she may burn this card by burning 3 blood. A vampire can have only one Disarm.
Potence As above, but the vampire with this card has -2 strength.
Warsaw station
Master: unique location.
You may tap this card when a Nosferatu announces an undirected action. If that action is successful, the acting Nosferatu untaps. You may burn this card (even if it is tapped) to move a Nosferatu in torpor to the ready region.
> Jesper wrote:
> If a vampire have moved in and out of torpor duing combat, can he continue and complete the action?
>
> Example:
> Baron Dieudonne bleeds for 1
> Ibn Khaldun blocks
>
> Combat begins:
>
> Ibn Khaldun plays "Outside the houreglass" dealing 2 damage before range
> Baron Diudonne plays a Form of Mist at PRO
> Ibn Khaldun tries to hit for one and plays disarm
>
> When Barons strike resolves, can he continue the action?
>
He can't continue the action, as he is no longer ready.
> rulebook wrote:
> 6.5.2. Leave Torpor Action (+1 stealth)
> This action is the only one a vampire in torpor can take (unless a card has explicit text saying otherwise).
>
> Jesper wrote:
> If he uses Warsaw station just after going to torpor can he continue the action?
>
I'd say no, because as soon as he leaves the ready region, the action fizzles.
> Jesper wrote:
> At what point dose it become impossible to continue the action?
> At what point dose modifiers/reactions get “forgotten” by the action?
> Dose they need to be in a ash heap to have effect?
>
These questions are too vague. Can you clarify what you have in mind?
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Jesper wrote:
> If he uses Warsaw station just after going to torpor can he continue the action?
>
> Ankha wrote:
> >
> > I'd say no, because as soon as he leaves the ready region, the action fizzles.
> >
Well combat is part of the action e.g. you can still play "ritual of the bitter rose". So at what point dose the action just fizzels?
And if the action fizzels before I can use "Warsaw station" how can I use e.g. "Ritual of the bitter rose"?
At what point dose it become impossible to continue the action?
Looking at the exampel above. Im curious at what point in time, the action cant be countinued anymore. If your statement is correct, then there must be a phase/timing where its impossible for you to continue the action. When is this?
or is it only when the action is completed you cant continue it anymore?
At what point dose modifiers/reactions get “forgotten” by the action?
For the next questions I am assuming:
that a action modifiere you play goes to "Limbo", which is apperenlt a thing even its not mentioned once in the rules.
that action modiferes goes to discard when the action is blocked.
If im wrong let me know
Do the action modiferes still apply and gets moved back to Limbo if the action continues?
While the modifiere is in the graveyard and not longer in limbo, do they still have an effect on current action?
---- References ----
>
> Ritual of the bitter rose
>
Each ready vampire you control gains an amount of blood from the blood bank equal to the amount of blood on a vampire being burned either by diablerie or while in combat with this vampire.
> Jesper wrote:
>
> > Jesper wrote:
> > If he uses Warsaw station just after going to torpor can he continue the action?
> >
> > Ankha wrote:
> > >
> > > I'd say no, because as soon as he leaves the ready region, the action fizzles.
> > >
> > >
> >
> Well combat is part of the action e.g. you can still play "ritual of the bitter rose". So at what point dose the action just fizzels?
>
> And if the action fizzels before I can use "Warsaw station" how can I use e.g. "Ritual of the bitter rose"?
>
I used "fizzles" which is not the same as "ends" or "fails".
An action that fizzles is an action that becomes illegal during the course of the action. A typical example is when the target isn't legal anymore, or because the acting can't carry on the action.
For instance, you try to burn a location with a Bomb, but you don't have it anymore during the resolution.
You can play action modifiers at the end of an action that fizzles.
You can play also combat cards such as Ritual of the Bitter Rose when the acting opposing minion burns, as well as you could play a Cats' Guidance after that.
> Jesper wrote:
> At what point dose it become impossible to continue the action?
> Looking at the exampel above. Im curious at what point in time, the action cant be countinued anymore. If your statement is correct, then there must be a phase/timing where its impossible for you to continue the action. When is this?
>
When the acting leaves the ready region. He's no longer ready, so he can't take the action anymore.
> Jesper wrote:
> or is it only when the action is completed you cant continue it anymore?
>
"Completed" is vague. An action is either successful (not blocked) or unsucessful. But you can continue an unsucessful action (because it has been blocked) with cards such as Form of Mist.
> Jesper wrote:
> At what point dose modifiers/reactions get “forgotten” by the action?
>
Usually at the end of the action, but some cards carry over (eg. Veil the Legions).
> Jesper wrote:
> For the next questions I am assuming:
> that a action modifiere you play goes to "Limbo", which is apperenlt a thing even its not mentioned once in the rules.
> that action modiferes goes to discard when the action is blocked.
> If im wrong let me know
>
Action modifiers resolve immediately, and go in the ash heap (by default) or in play (by card text. Eg. Under My Skin) immediately.
> Jesper wrote:
> Do the action modiferes still apply and gets moved back to Limbo if the action continues?
>
They still apply, even if they are in the ash heap.
> Jesper wrote:
> While the modifiere is in the graveyard and not longer in limbo, do they still have an effect on current action?
>
Moot. They never go to limbo.
Name: Bomb
Cardtype: Equipment
Cost: 1 pool
Weapon.
Strike: 5R damage. If the bomb is used in combat, the bearer takes 5 damage as well. The minion with this weapon may burn a location as a action. Burn the Bomb after use.
Name: Cats' Guidance
Cardtype: Reaction
Discipline: Animalism
[ani] Only usable by a tapped vampire immediately after he or she blocks (play after combat, if any). Untap this reacting vampire.
[ANI] +1 intercept.
Name: Under My Skin
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Thanatosis/Obfuscate
[obf] +1 stealth.
[thn] +1 stealth and put this card on this vampire. On any action after this one, this vampire may burn this card to get +1 stealth.
[THN] As [thn] above, but for +2 stealth when played.
Name: Veil the Legions
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Discipline: Obfuscate
[obf] Only usable by a ready, untapped vampire other than the acting minion you control. The acting minion gets +1 stealth. Only one Veil the Legions may be played each action.
[OBF] As above, and this vampire may burn X additional blood to give +1 stealth to the next X actions your minions perform this turn. Only one Veil the Legions can be played at superior each turn.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
BTW, two relevant links from LSJ:
groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/UZbyxuVsTJE/R4kF4HOIeMMJ
groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/dKUlCnVrYNQ/Dt32ZugMkggJ
> LSJ wrote:
> > Can we get a rundown of everything not listed above and
> > some examples then please?
>
> The complete list for actions is just: absence of something required.
> groups.google.com/groups?selm=3C45D991.E6086303%40white-wolf.com
> groups.google.com/groups?selm=2z98d.662807%24Gx4.420435%40bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net
>
> For example:
>
> Absence of sufficient blood/life/pool to pay cost
> groups.google.com/groups?selm=eb4eb7f8.0107100923.6d6c1761%40posting.google.com
>
> Absence of legal target (cf. Ambush/Harass thread)
> groups.google.com/groups?selm=3D3FE40B.8B58C24C%40white-wolf.com
>
> Absence of required card in play
> groups.google.com/groups?selm=4gg3uu%249oh%40darkstar.UCSC.EDU
>
> Absence of required card from the hand
> groups.google.com/groups?selm=3BF15F4A.542AEBDE%40white-wolf.com
>
> Absence of ready acting minion (when required)
> groups.google.com/groups?selm=3B5C37E9.C6464D3B%40white-wolf.com
>
> For more details, Google "fizzle OR fizzles author:LSJ"
>
> Catatonic Fear doesn't fizzle when Psyche!d, it still resolved
> successfully (and ended combat). The "and something else" of
> "end combat and something else" is the part that is lost when
> combat doesn't end or another is started, which might be
> called "fizzling" in regards to that effect, I guess.
>
> LSJ wrote:
> >In which order do you resolve the combat ends effects?
> >Example
>
> >A hunts. B blocks. A strikes with a hand strike. B strikes Catatonic.
> >A plays tele tracking.
> >New round: A strikes with shadow body/mirror image/form of mist. B
> >strikes hand strike. B plays tele tracking.
> >New round: A & B strikes with hand strikes. Combat is over.
>
> >A is now at zero blood. Will he go into torpor, because catatonic was
> >played first? Or will he hunts, because he is the acting minion and
> >his "after combat" effects goes first? (a la lurker berfore fast
> >reaction)
>
> The action continuance is lost, so there's no "race condition" to
> consider.
>
> If, however, B failed to play TT in round 2, then A would take CF's
> damage when combat ended before resolving the hunt - the hunt action
> isn't resolved after combat - it merely continues after combat. It
> will fizzle when the vampire goes to torpor from CF's damage.
>
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
> You can play also combat cards such as Ritual of the Bitter Rose when the acting opposing minion burns, as well as you could play a Cats' Guidance after that.
>
I think the point is: since you can play Ritual of the Bitter Rose (or more to the point: Amaranth on a vampire going to torpor), then combat is not over yet, so there is a window to use Warsaw Station while still in the combat. Why would one check whether the action fizzle before the end of the combat?
> LSJ wrote:
> > Can we get a rundown of everything not listed above and
> > some examples then please?
>
> The complete list for actions is just: absence of something required.
> groups.google.com/groups?selm=3C45D991.E6086303%40white-wolf.com
> groups.google.com/groups?selm=2z98d.662807%24Gx4.420435%40bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net
>
> For example:
>
> Absence of sufficient blood/life/pool to pay cost
> groups.google.com/groups?selm=eb4eb7f8.0107100923.6d6c1761%40posting.google.com
>
> Absence of legal target (cf. Ambush/Harass thread)
> groups.google.com/groups?selm=3D3FE40B.8B58C24C%40white-wolf.com
>
> Absence of required card in play
> groups.google.com/groups?selm=4gg3uu%249oh%40darkstar.UCSC.EDU
>
> Absence of required card from the hand
> groups.google.com/groups?selm=3BF15F4A.542AEBDE%40white-wolf.com
>
> Absence of ready acting minion (when required)
> groups.google.com/groups?selm=3B5C37E9.C6464D3B%40white-wolf.com
>
> For more details, Google "fizzle OR fizzles author:LSJ"
>
> Catatonic Fear doesn't fizzle when Psyche!d, it still resolved
> successfully (and ended combat). The "and something else" of
> "end combat and something else" is the part that is lost when
> combat doesn't end or another is started, which might be
> called "fizzling" in regards to that effect, I guess.
>
There seems to be a problem with that list: the first 4 effects are only checked at action resolution, whereas not being ready stops the action right away. They are not the same thing.
> Non-existant user wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> > You can play also combat cards such as Ritual of the Bitter Rose when the acting opposing minion burns, as well as you could play a Cats' Guidance after that.
> >
> I think the point is: since you can play Ritual of the Bitter Rose (or more to the point: Amaranth on a vampire going to torpor), then combat is not over yet, so there is a window to use Warsaw Station while still in the combat. Why would one check whether the action fizzle before the end of the combat?
>
The same way you check that you're not down at 0 pool during combat.
If you play DI on that Immortal Grapple and its ousts you, do you continue the combat? No.
> Non-existant user wrote:
> There seems to be a problem with that list: the first 4 effects are only checked at action resolution, whereas not being ready stops the action right away. They are not the same thing.
>
That is an interesting point, I leave it up to Pascal to revert LSJ's ruling or not.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
> The same way you check that you're not down at 0 pool during combat.
> If you play DI on that Immortal Grapple and its ousts you, do you continue the combat? No.
>
The two are not comparable. Being ousted prevents you from playing or being affected by any other effect (except Life Boon). The point is not that another effect cannot un-oust you, it is that the effect cannot happen at all.
Besides, regarding actions, there is precedent of fizzling causes being checked just in time (i.e.: at resolution). There is no need to check whether the vampire is still able to continue the action until he actually tries to do so, and that is after the end of combat.
Maybe that is clearer using Momentary Delay instead of Form of Mist:
Momentary Delay
[Action Modifier] Action Modifier
Requires a vampire with capacity 7 or more.
Only usable at the end of an action blocked by an ally or a vampire of capacity 5 or less (after any combats). Not usable if more than one round of combat has occurred nor if this vampire has lost 3 or more blood this action or ended combat before the press step. The action continues as if unblocked.
Cock Robin attempts an action, gets pinged for 1 and disarmed for some reason, and still during the combat, its controller uses Warsaw Station to get him out. At that point Cock is ready, and he is still the acting vampire: even without the Warsaw Station, he would have been able to play a Freak Drive at after combat ends. Now comes the end of the combat. Why would he be unable to play Momentary Delay? There was not even an action to fizzle when he went to torpor since the action had already been unsuccessfully resolved.