Submission: Bargain For Power, a way to make your minions infernal.

Name: Bargain For Power Cardtype: Action Cost: none +2 stealth action. Requires a non-infernal vampire. Put this card on the acting vampire. Choose a discipline, vampire with this card gains a level of the chosen discipline and a level of daimonion . A vampire with this card is infernal. A vampire can only have one Bargain For Power. Compelling game need: Currently there is no viable way to make your own minions infernal, Barbaro Lucchese does not count. Also a way to get some of those elusive bloodline disciplines at the cost of becoming infernal. Art notes: A vellum scroll describing an agreement between powers infernal and the signer, in this case Dylan. World of Darkness reference: Not any single source comes to mind, but exchanging your soul for power is more or less the very idea of infernalism. Created by: Mikko Moisander Notes: Yes, you can choose , thus gaining superior level of it. I am bit worried about this making it too easy to get some of the other exotic disciplines, but can't think of a proper cost or requirement to balance it. Originally I also had the card to increase the vampire's capacity by 1, but deemed it too easy to abuse in Soul Gem decks.

I'm more concerned about gaining Temporis rather than superior Daimoinon. There's the Textbook Damnation that makes you easily infernal, so I don't really understand your compelling game need, unless you want multiple infernal vampires for some reason (in which case a crypt of Hordes would do the job). Name: The Textbook Damnation [KMW:R] Cardtype: Equipment Cost: 1 pool Unique equipment. The vampire with this equipment has superior Daimoinon [DAI] and is infernal. Cards that require Daimoinon [dai] cost this vampire 2 less blood. During your master phase, if this vampire is tapped, burn this equipment. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Yes, Temporis came to my mind as possible problem, mainly because of Summon History. Textbook Damnation is uniqe equipment and to consistently get your copy, you either need many copies or tons of get equipment tech (Vast Wealth, MotS etc.). Greatest problem with Textbook however is the build in burn clause. Playing with Vast Wealt, you can often get textbook early but then have to wait the other part of your combo for some time, paying for the infernal cost all the time, or glock your hand with the textbook and all that now useless get equipment tech. If Hordes were of group any, they would be perfect. Right now they have quite a limited crypt of friends to play with. Hmm... Mayby something in vein of Anarch Convert: When Infernal convert enters play, you may remove him from game to make an another minion you control infernal. Although not the main purpose, my card also has the evil use of making borrowed minions infenal. Temptate some poor bloke, make him infernal and give him discipline you like. Next time you borrow him, he is more useful and mean time original controller will incur the infernal cost.

in the world of darkness roleplaying game contrary to the card game, there was no strict definition of "infernal" vampires ... it could include one or more of the following options : - option A: vampires following the path of evil revelations - option B: vampires who stroke a bargain with one or more demons - option C: baalis due to the links of the bloodline to demons (even if not all were promoting or worshipping them) For the option A: the book of evil revelation seems to be directly inspired from the path and its ways of transmission. For option B, we have such cards linked to the bargain with demons as "infernal pact" or "infernal familiar" (even if none of them takes the idea of infernal) For option C, we have nothing except maybe sanguine instruction... in fact for the option C, baali was not only a bloodline in the wod, it was close to a religion. you could convert (even if painfully) to it. even in terms of gameplay there was an advantage called "apostate" in the baali clanbokk which allowed to play a baali coming originally from another clan. (consequently it was possible to play a baali with "clan" disciplines different from the core baali disciplines) there was even a sub group of lasombra (the angelis ater) which were notorious to have been infiltrated or seduced a lot by the baalis mixing knowledges of obtenetration and daimonion.

> Whisker wrote: > Yes, Temporis came to my mind as possible problem, mainly because of Summon History. > Yes, this is a problem. Must there be a discipline level involved? Couldn´t the demonic award be something else? I think there is enough strange ways to gain discipline levels. Also, I don´t see the compelling game need. Why is it good for the game that more vamps can use Infernal-cards? "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

I'm going to say the book is viable. How many minions do you need to be infernal? Other clans/disciplines are less supported. There's no "textbook:Melpominee 101". Textbook damnation: MotS for it. Play concordance for free, as the crow. Heidleberg it to someone else. Concordance free, as the crow. You get the idea. Then let it burn. You get a small army of flying +1 strength "agg as normal" minions. You don't have to be infernal to have concordance, just to keep it. Not sure what to DO with it, but Gangrel rushers with no-torpor force of will bleeds, ventrue unblockable dawn op stuff, !ventrue g2 with Vincent day to mots, and for pot Dom people support, madness network flyers (as the crow) with "burn a blood to untap at influence phase" ..... All kinds of stuff. Basically, all the strengths of gargoyles except for rock cat, without sucking like gargoyles. Textbook also let's you play condemnations, contagion, and Unleash hells fury. Servitor as well. None of this needs you to stay infernal, so you can burn the book when your tired of paying the Satan tax. You could tool up Windham with concordance, contagion, condemnation mute another persons minion, play a UHF, and let the book burn. Agent of power letting literally ANYBODY summon history for Remnant of the endless storm or Ankara citadel is bad enough, I don't think this card is needed, or safe. On a side note SH being hard to acquire is probably why everyone doesn't break the dang thing. Lastly, infernalism is a setback. In-clan stuff, the "psuedo disciplines", and some DAI cards are all it helps. It costs pool and let's True Faith go from joke card to "metagamed" . textbook is hot. I can't see any strategy where you wouldn't want it or baali(or Ian forestall or petaniqua or valarious) over random ppl being infernal. Oh, and remember l, I am Legion, psychomachia and many more just need DAI not infernal. So sanguine instruction twice can allow DAI on malks with petaniqua etc...

So, several points, slightly out of order: > Whisker wrote: > Notes: Yes, you can choose , thus gaining superior level of it. I am bit worried about this making it too easy to get some of the other exotic disciplines, but can't think of a proper cost or requirement to balance it. Originally I also had the card to increase the vampire's capacity by 1, but deemed it too easy to abuse in Soul Gem decks. > If you're worried about Temporis and Obeah in particular, you could ban those by name. I don't think that getting Thanatosis or Valeren or Spiritus at the cost of Infernalism is that big a deal. And it might make that elusive Baali/!Salubri Blessing of the Name deck finally into the tournament sensation it was always destined to be. > Whisker wrote: > Compelling game need: Currently there is no viable way to make your own minions infernal, Barbaro Lucchese does not count. Also a way to get some of those elusive bloodline disciplines at the cost of becoming infernal. > That's an explanation of what the card does, and that there isn't another card that does the same thing. That's not the same as a compelling game need - because literally any card you make up can be made different from existing cards, and do a thing. What holes in existing Baali decks are you hoping to address? Which existing sub-par vampires are you hoping to gather together into an effective deck? In what way will this make the game better? What about the card will make it see active play? Which decks would you see using it well? > Whisker wrote: > Name: Bargain For Power > Cardtype: Action > Cost: none > +2 stealth action. Requires a non-infernal vampire. > Put this card on the acting vampire. Choose a discipline, vampire with this card gains a level of the chosen discipline and a level of daimonion . A vampire with this card is infernal. A vampire can only have one Bargain For Power. > Assuming the card is useful, it feels like it suffers from the same problem as a lot of "setup" cards - see many deck ideas that start "Well, first Arika plays Clan Impersonation then...": 1) Assuming it's something you want to liven up some vampires in your crypt, you want it early, but it's a library card, so you need to stuff quite a few in. 2) When you draw the others later in the game, you have a lot, lot less you can do with them, because it requires a non-infernal vampire and turns it into an infernal vampire, and you can only have one per vampire. 3) It doesn't sit well with other infernal vampires you might be playing alongside, because they can't play it or cycle it at all. (There is the possibility of a breed deck creating babies and giving them Daimoinon this way. Hmm.) Most people don't play the unique discipline-granting equipment much for the disciplines, because of that sort of thing - it's harder to get them out reliably (unless you Magic of the Smith them), and why carry a vampire around without much or any Potence until you draw Hand of Conrad? And you don't usually want lots in the deck, because they're unique. One or two have backup special abilities or alternative uses that save them a little bit, but not really great for livening up a deck. Two alternatives to mind: a) Give the card an alternative use somehow. "[action] Requires a non-infernal vampire... [act mod] Requires an infernal vampire. Only usable after a successful bleed for 2 or less against your prey. This vampire gains a blood." Makes it easier to use in reasonable quantities, because you can use up the later copies. I'd be aiming for an alternative use that is decent enough, without being super-duper triple awesome. b) Go the Anarch Convert route and make it a 'special' crypt card. Fewer actions used. You can fish for it with Wider View, which isn't a terrible card anyway, or use your normal transfers to fish for it. Probably something like "When Demonic Servant enters play, choose another vampire you control and move it to that vampire, or remove it from the game. The vampire with Demonic Servant is infernal..." etc. Or something like that, doesn't have to be exactly that. This would all hinge on it actually addressing a compelling game need, though - is it actually doing something good for the game at the end of it?