www.vekn.net/rulebook/appendix-imbued-rules
I'll take all links to other imbued rules compendiums as well so I can get a general better understanding. I'll probably design a graphic rules sheet for imbued because our playgroup doesn't allow them without clear and comprehensive "What the hell is he doing" guide for the table.
Question - Can an imbued use Codex to bleed for 4?
I was thinking about an imbued deck, I don't really know how they work.
Since Imbued are allies and are the ideal users of Flash Grenade I figured why not use the fact that my prey is tapped out to play Codex of the edenic groundskeepers. But then the card text makes me hesitates, as the Codex costs 1 blood. However in instances like Theft of Vitae Blood = Life so there's precedence.
> Codex of the Edenic Groundskeepers
> Equipment
> [1 Pool]
> Unique equipment.
> This minion gets -2 stealth when bleeding. This minion may bleed as a action that costs 1 blood; this action gets +3 bleed if the target Methuselah doesn't control a ready untapped minion.
>
Okay, but why?
What makes theft work and codex not work?
> Theft of Vitae
> Combat
> Thaumaturgy
> [tha] Strike: ranged. Steal 1 blood.
> [THA] Strike: ranged. Steal 2 blood.
>
Edit:
There's also this relevant part of the rulebook:
>
> 1.6.3. Minion Cards
>
> Minion cards are cards that your vampires and allies (collectively referred to as "minions") play. Unless the card states otherwise, a minion card is burned after a minion plays it.
>
> By default, a minion card in play is controlled by the controller of the minion it is on. If a minion card is just in play and not on another controlled card, then it is, by default, controlled by the Methuselah who played it.
>
> In many cases, a minion card will have a Discipline symbol, a clan symbol and/or a blood cost; in these cases, the card can only be played by a vampire who meets the requirements.
>
> Some allies have the ability to play certain cards "as a vampire." In these cases, the ally is treated as a vampire for all effects generated by the play of the card, including duration effects (like "for the remainder of combat"). The ally's life represents his blood (to pay costs, for example). Any blood he gains or loses as a vampire equates to a gain or loss of life for the ally. For purposes of that card, the ally has a capacity of 1 by default (for use if the card requires an older vampire or a vampire of a given capacity). If the ally gains life in excess of his capacity, it doesn't drain off, and if the effect inflicts aggravated damage on the ally, he burns life as normal. However, if the effect would send the ally to torpor, then he is burned instead. The ally is treated as a vampire only for the effect generated from playing the card. In particular, the ally is not treated as a vampire for effects the card has from being in play (like "the vampire with this card" effects).
>
> Codex of the Edenic Groundskeepers
> Equipment
> [1 Pool]
> Unique equipment.
> This minion gets -2 stealth when bleeding. This minion may bleed as a action that costs 1 blood; this action gets +3 bleed if the target Methuselah doesn't control a ready untapped minion.
>
[quote="Rulebook 6.4.5 - 'Steal Blood'"[/quote]Steal Blood. This effect moves blood counters (or life counters) from the target to the striking minion. [/quote]
Imbued cannot play cards (or use effects) that cost blood. They can steal blood (that transforms to life) or can get stolen life (if via strikes, that would be a "strike: steal blood" effect).
So what about Jennifer's card text:
> Jennifer Flame61 Vidisania
> [ven][vis]
> [Avenger]
> Capacity: 4
> Group: 4
> Weapons cost Jennifer 1 less pool or blood. +1 bleed. -1 stealth.
>
(There's currently no Weapons that cost blood)
Disregarding that; Why put it in her special that weapons cost 1 less blood if she, according to you, can't pay in blood anyway?
> 2wayspeaker wrote:
> So what about Jennifer's card text:
>
> > Jennifer Flame61 Vidisania
> > [ven][vis]
> > [Avenger]
> > Capacity: 4
> > Group: 4
> > Weapons cost Jennifer 1 less pool or blood. +1 bleed. -1 stealth.
> >
> (There's currently no Weapons that cost blood)
>
> Disregarding that; Why put it in her special that weapons cost 1 less blood if she, according to you, can't pay in blood anyway?
>
She could equip with a weapon that costs 1 blood, because then she would have to pay 0 blood, making it a legal move.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> She could equip with a weapon that costs 1 blood, because then she would have to pay 0 blood, making it a legal move.
>
Jennifer's special ability is not worded correctly. It should say "Jennifer can equip with weapons that cost zero or one pool or blood. No cost is paid." With the current card text, she should be able to pay blood costs for any weapon. Golden rule for cards.
> Jennifer's special ability is not worded correctly. It should say "Jennifer can equip with weapons that cost zero or one pool or blood. No cost is paid." With the current card text, she should be able to pay blood costs for any weapon. Golden rule for cards.
>
Not true. the card just instructs her to pay one less for them. It does not say she can play cards that cost blood. If a blood cost is still required she is checked for legality and is found to have none.
Yes. But Jennifer's special ability is worded poorly. It suggests that Jennifer can pay blood costs for weapons. I think there is a better way to state Jennifer's special ability.
> TwoRazorReign wrote:
> Yes. But Jennifer's special ability is worded poorly. It suggests that Jennifer can pay blood costs for weapons. I think there is a better way to state Jennifer's special ability.
>
There are cards that would allow her the ability to do so. Because of this they make the ability all encompassing.
Example :
Jennifer who has a Putrescent Servitude and equips a Theoretical Weapon that does not exist yet that happens to cost 2. They could use a Forger's Hammer to have the action end successfully and not unsuccessfully. Any minion can attempt an action with no specific limitations even if they can't afford the cost.
> Putrescent Servitude
> Action
> 1 Blood
> +1 stealth action.
> [thn] Move any mortal or ghoul retainer you control to this vampire, or put this card on a mortal or ghoul ally you control. This ally gains 1 life, and he or she may play cards that require basic Potence as a vampire.
> [THN] As above, but take any mortal or ghoul retainer or put this card on any mortal or ghoul ally and take control of that ally.
>
> Forger's Hammer
> Action Modifier
> Only usable when this vampire successfully equips with a non-unique melee weapon from your hand.
> [pot] Put this card on the weapon. This weapon inflicts +1 damage each strike.
> [POT] As above, and the cost of this weapon is reduced by 1 blood or 1 pool.
>
There are no rules that say you cannot attempt the action and that it won't technically be successful, but instead that you will not be able to pay the cost and the item will not be acquired as if you had gone to the store without enough money. The action is still a successful action. The cost of the card is only declared was the action is announced, not required to be met.
> All details of the action are declared when the action is announced, including the target(s), the cost, the effects, etc. Any card required for the action is played (face up) at this time. Tap the acting minion (only ready untapped minions can take actions).
>
That, I believe, is the reason for her wording.
> TheLich wrote:
> Any minion can attempt an action with no specific limitations even if they can't afford the cost.
>
That is wrong. You can't attempt an action you can't pay.
> Rulebook wrote:
> Requirements for Playing Cards. Each library card has symbols on the attribute bar (the marble stripe on the left side) for the card type (except for master cards), the clan or Discipline (if any) required to play the card and the cost (if any) of playing that card. Some cards will have other requirements (such as capacity or title) stated in the card text. Only a minion who meets the requirements given on a minion card can play it, while only a Methuselah who controls a ready minion who meets the requirements of a master card can play it.
>
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
So if I have Volker on 1 blood and Sunset Strip: Hollywood in play I can't reqruit a neighbourhood watch commander because it costs 2?
> Neighborhood Watch Commander (Hunter)
> Ally
> 2 Blood
> Mortal with 1 life. 1 strength, 0 bleed.When an action taken by a vampire ends unsuccessfully, you may tap this card at the end of that action to inflict 1 damage on the acting vampire. Only one Neighborhood Watch Commander may tap to inflict damage each action.
>
> Sunset Strip, Hollywood
> Master
> 1 pool
> Master: unique location.Tap to give all vampires +1 stealth on hunt actions until your next untap phase. Tap to reduce the cost to recruit a mortal ally or employ a mortal retainer by 1 blood or pool (but never less than 0 blood or pool).
>
> 2wayspeaker wrote:
> So if I have Volker on 1 blood and Sunset Strip: Hollywood in play I can't reqruit a neighbourhood watch commander because it costs 2?
>
Cardtext?
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> 2wayspeaker wrote:
> So if I have Volker on 1 blood and Sunset Strip: Hollywood in play I can't reqruit a neighbourhood watch commander because it costs 2?
>
Tap the Sunset Strip and it costs one.
[LSJ 20031202]
>
> LSJ wrote:
> > How early can you tap Sunset Strip to reduce the cost of a mortal ally
> > by 1?
> >
> > for example:
> > cicatriz has 1 blood. it wants to get a courier. you can't attempt an
> > action you can't afford. cicatriz can't afford the courier. but can
> > you tap the sunset strip as you announce the action, or something, to
> > be able to attempt (and then succeed at, as the cost is 1 less) the
> > action?
>
> Yes. The most frequent example of this effect is Masochism, but Succulent
> Vitae and then Soul of the Earth are a distant second and third, I imagine.
>
> Similarly, a vampire who had played Inner Essence could use the effect
> to reduce the cost of a combat card down to something he could afford
> to pay.
>
[LSJ 20090705]
>
> LSJ wrote:
> >> When do I tap Sunset Strip to reduce the cost of an ally I'm
> >> recruiting or a retainer I'm employing?
> >>
> >> A) When I play the ally or retainer card
> >> B) When the action to recruit or employ is successful
> >>
> >> I assume it's A, since Sunset Strip doesn't mention reducing the cost
> >> when the ally/retainer is played, but I'm wrong about this stuff all
> >> the time...
> >
> Either is fine. You may need to tap it at announcement in order to attempt the
> action you could not otherwise afford.
>
Tap to give all vampires +1 stealth on hunt actions until your next untap phase. Tap to reduce the cost to recruit a mortal ally or employ a mortal retainer by 1 blood or pool (but never less than 0 blood or pool).
A somwehat similar issue is faced with the Ravnos Clown Car deck (Tumnimos paid for by Ravnos Carnival). You can attempt an action that you don't have the blood for, by indicating that the currency counters will let you pay for it - though you can pay for it using blood or currency counters when it reaches successful resolution, if you gain blood during the action somehow.
[LSJ 20090201]
>
> LSJ wrote:
> > A Ravnos with 2 blood attempts a Sensory Deprivation Action.
> > There is a Ravnos Carnival in play with some counters on it.
> >
> > The Ravnos gains blood during the action, before it resolves.
> > Must he still use the Carnival's counters, since it facilitated his
> > announcement of the action?
>
> No.
>
The origin of the Ravnos Carnival trick is somewhat lost in the mists of time (probably somewhere more ephemeral, like the White Wolf forums).
> Requirements for Playing Cards. Each library card has symbols on the attribute bar (the marble stripe on the left side) for the card type (except for master cards), the clan or Discipline (if any) required to play the card and the cost (if any) of playing that card. Some cards will have other requirements (such as capacity or title) stated in the card text. Only a minion who meets the requirements given on a minion card can play it, while only a Methuselah who controls a ready minion who meets the requirements of a master card can
>
1.6.1.3 does not refer to the cost as a requirement. Quite the contrary, it refers to things which are required to play and isolates separately the cost. However, I'll concede for now that my interpretation may just simply be a rhetoric based problem and drop my feelings there.
Even still 6.2.1 allows my example to work anyway.
> 6.2.1. Announce the Action
>
> All details of the action are declared when the action is announced, including the target(s), the cost, the effects, etc. Any card required for the action is played (face up) at this time. Tap the acting minion (only ready untapped minions can take actions).
>
This is also the rule that allows you to use Sunset Strip, as it is technically a detail of the action.
If this much analysis is needed to figure out why Jennifer's special ability is worded the way it is, then there is probably something wrong with the card text. It's just poorly stated.
> TheLich wrote:
>
> > Requirements for Playing Cards. Each library card has symbols on the attribute bar (the marble stripe on the left side) for the card type (except for master cards), the clan or Discipline (if any) required to play the card and the cost (if any) of playing that card. Some cards will have other requirements (such as capacity or title) stated in the card text. Only a minion who meets the requirements given on a minion card can play it, while only a Methuselah who controls a ready minion who meets the requirements of a master card can
> >
> 1.6.1.3 does not refer to the cost as a requirement. Quite the contrary, it refers to things which are required to play and isolates separately the cost. However, I'll concede for now that my interpretation may just simply be a rhetoric based problem and drop my feelings there.
>
The whole chapter is called "Requirements". The cost is part of the requirement.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> TheLich wrote:
>
> > Requirements for Playing Cards. Each library card has symbols on the attribute bar (the marble stripe on the left side) for the card type (except for master cards), the clan or Discipline (if any) required to play the card and the cost (if any) of playing that card. Some cards will have other requirements (such as capacity or title) stated in the card text. Only a minion who meets the requirements given on a minion card can play it, while only a Methuselah who controls a ready minion who meets the requirements of a master card can
> >
> 1.6.1.3 does not refer to the cost as a requirement.
>
Doesn't really matter. www.vekn.net/general-rulings
>
> You cannot play a card whose cost cannot be paid. If, between the time a action card is played (or an action is attempted) and the time the cost of the action is paid, you no longer can pay the cost, then you pay as much as you can and the card is burned without effect (or the action has no effect). [TOM 19960514] [RTR 20010710]
>
The point with cards like Sunset Strip and Ravnos Carnival (and many others) is that they either change the cost or demonstrate a way to pay the cost.