Re: Unleash vs signet

Guys, if a unleash declares a block uppon a Vampire with signet, what happens? Archbishop of Vitória

> Wand wrote: > Guys, if a unleash declares a block uppon a Vampire with signet, what happens? > Unleash Hell's Fury +1 stealth action. Requires an infernal vampire. Unique. Daimoinon Put this card in play. This card may attempt to block a action against you and is considered a 9-capacity infernal vampire with +2 intercept during that attempt; if successful, the acting minion takes 1 unpreventable aggravated damage, and this card is burned. Daimoinon As above, and untap this vampire. Signet of King Saul, The Unique equipment. Vampires with capacity above 7 cannot attempt to block this minion. Unleash cannot declare a block, since it's (considered) capacity 9. -1 Strength

This should be in the Rules section.

Why? It's blatantly obvious from card text

> Blooded wrote: > Why? It's blatantly obvious from card text > I agree with Blooded Sand on this one. It's pretty clear what happens.

> TwoRazorReign wrote: > > > Blooded wrote: > > Why? It's blatantly obvious from card text > > > I agree with Blooded Sand on this one. It's pretty clear what happens. > Boris just pointed out that the topic was in the News section, note the Rules question. I moved it to the relevant section. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

We had this question today on Lackey ... National Coordinator Germany nc [dot] germany [at] magenta [dot] de

EDIT: Last comment was at the top of the page, so I thought this was a new question. > Name: The Signet of King Saul > Cardtype: Equipment > Cost: 1 pool > Unique equipment. > Vampires with capacity above 7 cannot attempt to block this minion. > > Name: Unleash Hell's Fury > Cardtype: Action > Cost: 2 pool > Discipline: Daimoinon > Burn Option > +1 stealth action. Requires an infernal vampire. Unique. > [dai] Put this card in play. This card can attempt to block a action against you and is considered a 9-capacity infernal vampire with +2 intercept during that attempt; if successful, the acting minion takes 1 unpreventable aggravated damage, and this card is burned. > [DAI] As above, and unlock this vampire. > Unleash Hell's Fury cannot attempt to block a minion with Signet of King Saul, since UHF is a 9-cap when performing capacity checks (older, younger, above, below, etc.).

> Blooded wrote: > Why? It's blatantly obvious from card text > Nothing in this game is blatantly obvious. The card, not being a vampire, attempts to block and since we have already passed block declaration signer is irrelevant. Or the other way. Just depends on what one guy thought one day.

Looking at the rulebook doesn't really provide much clarity on block attempts. Just says that people can declare block attempts, not any detailed sequence. Maybe more iin detailed pllay summery

> Mewcat wrote: > Looking at the rulebook doesn't really provide much clarity on block attempts. Just says that people can declare block attempts, not any detailed sequence. Maybe more iin detailed pllay summery > Unfortunately, the information you are looking for is not located in either place. It is, however, in a very old thread: www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/10649-impulse-the-as-played-window-and-you?start=0 I have stated this before, but that post outlining sequencing needs to be incorporated in the rulebook.

Vampires with capacity above 7 cannot attempt to block this minion. This card can attempt to block a action against you and is considered a 9-capacity infernal vampire The two cards interact with each other in the clearest way possible since they use exactly the same terms. If an effect says "X can do Y", and another effect says "X cannot do Y", then the "cannot" effect takes precedence over the "can" effect. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

I think the question is more broadly about cards that are 1 thing but become something else in a limited capacity and sequencing. When do they begin being the new thing? When do they stop?

> TwoRazorReign wrote: > > > Mewcat wrote: > > Looking at the rulebook doesn't really provide much clarity on block attempts. Just says that people can declare block attempts, not any detailed sequence. Maybe more iin detailed pllay summery > > > Unfortunately, the information you are looking for is not located in either place. It is, however, in a very old thread: www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/10649-impulse-the-as-played-window-and-you?start=0 > > I have stated this before, but that post outlining sequencing needs to be incorporated in the rulebook. > I read a little bit and am already confused. You can play seduction with an action before someone can di? Or was that part wrong? Edit. So that part is wrong as I learned when reading more of the nested links. I am troubled that lsj and Pascal are not using the same terminology to presumably mean the same thing.

In practice there’s always a window to DI or Sudden/Wash after every single card is played - anytime a player does something, everyone else gets a chance to respond is a myriad of ways. When I play, especially with new players, I take care to always clearly announce what I’m doing and leave pause for players to process and react to it.

> Mewcat wrote: > > > TwoRazorReign wrote: > > > > > Mewcat wrote: > > > Looking at the rulebook doesn't really provide much clarity on block attempts. Just says that people can declare block attempts, not any detailed sequence. Maybe more iin detailed pllay summery > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, the information you are looking for is not located in either place. It is, however, in a very old thread: www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/10649-impulse-the-as-played-window-and-you?start=0 > > > > I have stated this before, but that post outlining sequencing needs to be incorporated in the rulebook. > > > I read a little bit and am already confused. You can play seduction with an action before someone can di? Or was that part wrong? > > Edit. So that part is wrong as I learned when reading more of the nested links. I am troubled that lsj and Pascal are not using the same terminology to presumably mean the same thing. > Sorry, read the fifth post on the first page of the thread. That gets into resolving block attempts.

> Mewcat wrote: > I think the question is more broadly about cards that are 1 thing but become something else in a limited capacity and sequencing. When do they begin being the new thing? When do they stop? > Assumptions: seduction can not be played on unleash hells fury unleash hells fury cannot be chosen in terms on referendum confirmed: signet prevents unleash hells fury from blocking This places some limits on the duration on hells fury being a vampire. using pascals description from the old thread referenced by 2rain we can see that fury 'activates' at step 2.999999 (just before 3) and 'deactivates' at 10.999999 (just before 11 or resolution)

> Mewcat wrote: > I think the question is more broadly about cards that are 1 thing but become something else in a limited capacity and sequencing. When do they begin being the new thing? When do they stop? > The key here is that unleash attempts to block AS a 9-cap vampire. There is not a moment where its not a vampire, attempts to block and turns into a vampire... At least in my opinion. > Mewcat wrote: > Assumptions: > seduction can not be played on unleash hells fury > unleash hells fury cannot be chosen in terms on referendum > Seduction cannot be played on unleash, because seduction is played AS THE ACTION IS ANNOUNCED. I can never remember was a bleed action card even replaced when seduction must be played, but at any rate at the same time you announce the bleed action. Nobody has a chance to declare blockers at that point, therefore unleash is not a vampire. Seduction can be DI'd (etc. canceled) because DI MUST be played at that same window. Unleash is only considered a vampire when it attempts to block. The sequence of windows when different cards can be played is actually quite long and something I have complained about.. Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

> Bloodartist wrote: > Seduction cannot be played on unleash, because seduction is played AS THE ACTION IS ANNOUNCED. I can never remember was a bleed action card even replaced when seduction must be played, > The action card must be replaced before playing another card. Only cancellation cards are played before the cancelled card is replaced. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > > > Bloodartist wrote: > > Seduction cannot be played on unleash, because seduction is played AS THE ACTION IS ANNOUNCED. I can never remember was a bleed action card even replaced when seduction must be played, > > > The action card must be replaced before playing another card. Only cancellation cards are played before the cancelled card is replaced. > Concealed weapon

> Mewcat wrote: > > > Ankha wrote: > > played before the cancelled card is replaced. > > > Concealed weapon > Still true. You play Concealed Weapon, wait for DIs, draw, then play the weapon that you intend to conceal (cannot be canceled by any current game effects), then you draw.

> kschaefer wrote: > > > Mewcat wrote: > > > > > Ankha wrote: > > > played before the cancelled card is replaced. > > > > > > > > Concealed weapon > > > Still true. > > You play Concealed Weapon, wait for DIs, draw, then play the weapon that you intend to conceal (cannot be canceled by any current game effects), then you draw. > Correct. You can put aside, face down, the weapon you are equipping as a sign you have indeed a weapon in you hand when you play Concealed Weapon, but you cannot show it until the Concealed Weapon is resolved successfully. Playing both Concealed Weapon and the weapon face up, at the same time, before replacing both is illegal. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Then I could play it with no weapon , right. If the new card is a legal target seems like I would be able to fish for a weapon

> Mewcat wrote: > Then I could play it with no weapon , right. > > If the new card is a legal target seems like I would be able to fish for a weapon > No, because of the card text: "This minion equips with a non-unique weapon card from your hand (requirements and cost apply as normal). " You cannot equip with anything from your hand that is not there. National Coordinator Germany nc [dot] germany [at] magenta [dot] de

That's cool and all but it's a mechanical mess to require a weapon that I can't legally show.

> Mewcat wrote: > That's cool and all but it's a mechanical mess to require a weapon that I can't legally show. > No more than Governing down on a "younger" vampire you can't show. Plus, if you set aside face down the card of your hand, you just flip it when you resolve the CW. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

But the new draw could be played so why do that? Unless you can't use the new draw. Govern doesn't "target" a card in hand so it isn't a moving target although admittedly the vamp should just get revealed for elegence.