BOOM! Swedish Paradox acquires White Wolf

Paradox Interactive buys White Wolf from CCP Link (sorry Swedish, try to update later): digital.di.se/artikel/paradox-koper-rollspelsjatte# Update: venturebeat.com/2015/10/29/paradox-interactive-buys-vampire-the-masquerade-publisher-white-wolf-from-ccp/ "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

Before people start asking, I don't believe this has any impact on a relauch of VTES, as there's still Wizards to deal with. It might mean a new WOD-based CCG, but I have no knowledge of any such possibility.

> BenPeal wrote: > Before people start asking, I don't believe this has any impact on a relauch of VTES, as there's still Wizards to deal with. It might mean a new WOD-based CCG, but I have no knowledge of any such possibility. > OK, this might be old but: What does WotC own these days that concerns VTES? "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Ashur wrote: > OK, this might be old but: What does WotC own these days that concerns VTES? > The two main things are US Patent No. RE 37,957 and the Deckmaster trademark on the backs of the cards. There may be other elements - I honestly don't know - but those are the two most significant ones.

> BenPeal wrote: > > > Ashur wrote: > > OK, this might be old but: What does WotC own these days that concerns VTES? > > > The two main things are US Patent No. RE 37,957 and the Deckmaster trademark on the backs of the cards. There may be other elements - I honestly don't know - but those are the two most significant ones. > That patent seems to cover the idea of tapping, and the logo. So if we were to somehow find another way to mark a card as used for the turn, then we could get around that problem, correct? The second problem is not major, as it only applies to old card print runs, and not, conceivably, any future print runs

Press release from Paradox: www.paradoxplaza.com/news/Paradox-White-Wolf-Publishing/

> Blooded wrote: > That patent seems to cover the idea of tapping, and the logo. So if we were to somehow find another way to mark a card as used for the turn, then we could get around that problem, correct? > That is technically possible, but I was told in an in-person meeting with Steve Wieck (who is on the Board of Directors for CCP) that CCP would be unwilling to license out the WOD IP for the purposes of making a V:TES-compatible game that cuts out the Wizards part. The primary reason for this is the albeit-very-small-but-still-non-zero chance that Wizards would file a likely-to-lose-but-still-too-expensive-for-CCP-regardless-of-outcome lawsuit. Paradox might have a different view on this, but I would not expect so.

> BenPeal wrote: > The two main things are US Patent No. RE 37,957 > Wasn´t that the one from 1994 that expired last year? > BenPeal wrote: > ... and the Deckmaster trademark on the backs of the cards. > Well, yes, I guess that is a problem, but not superbig in my opinion. > BenPeal wrote: > There may be other elements - I honestly don't know - but those are the two most significant ones. > What about the icons? Symbols? Who owns them? Sorry for being uninformed, but I haven´t payed much attention to this, but I feel that this moment might be the right to approach Paradox, before they make any wrong decisions about this. Several swedish players, including myself, know senior people at Paradox, and many of those Paradox people are old VTM-roleplayers. Just let us know if we can helt VEKN in any way with this. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

P-dox has stated that they bought everything. Lock stock and barrel. Of course, if WW never owned the card art, that's a problem. Invalid consumer key/secret in configuration The patent's language, aside from the specifics of card orientation, refers to 'energy elements.' Card orientation can be worked around and the rest is a lot more applicable to a direct rip-off of Magic's lands and mana pool than it is to the concepts in Jyhad/VtES, which are (1) more similar to other CCGs and deck-building games that WOTC has not challenged as far as I know, and (2) in some aspects, directly taken from V:tM. A digital edition would avoid any headaches w/r/t new print runs. If successful, money could be thrown at reprints or new expansions down the line.

> Ashur wrote: > > > BenPeal wrote: > > The two main things are US Patent No. RE 37,957 > > > Wasn´t that the one from 1994 that expired last year? > Did it expire or was it renewed? Regardless, CCP was unwilling to license the WOD IP for a V:TES-compatible CCG that cut out the Wizards-owned parts. > > BenPeal wrote: > > There may be other elements - I honestly don't know - but those are the two most significant ones. > > > What about the icons? Symbols? Who owns them? > I. Honestly. Don't. Know. > Sorry for being uninformed, but I haven´t payed much attention to this, but I feel that this moment might be the right to approach Paradox, before they make any wrong decisions about this. > Depends on your definition of what the "wrong decisions" would be. It might be the right decision for them to create a WOD-themed CCG that cuts out V:TES. It might be the right decision to simply perpetuate V:TES. It might be the right decision to re-launch V:TES, but with a fresh set of cards that wipes out all the wallpaper and failed mechanics and such. But yes, Paradox should contacted ASAP. It is to my knowledge that at least one of the V:EKN ICs (Vincent) has reached out to them already. > Several swedish players, including myself, know senior people at Paradox, and many of those Paradox people are old VTM-roleplayers. Just let us know if we can helt VEKN in any way with this. > Whatever you can do to help would be greatly appreciated. If you can point their eyes at VEKN.net and the overall V:TES community, that would be great, as it seems Paradox is keen to reach out to the player communities of WW games. Get them in touch with the VEKN ICs. Ask them to post a public statement - even if the statement is "We don't know yet" - to the public forms here on VEKN.net so the whole community can hear from them. And thanks!

There is also the possibility of Paradox simply working with WOTC, if it turns out their IP is integral. If they do that, a digital VtES project might be able to be jumpstarted by leveraging the codebase for either Magic Online or Duels. Everybody wins. And who wouldn't want to work with Paradox these days? They are a very different company than CCP. They have a great rep and a stable of very strong properties. WW, WOTC and Paradox franchises already have a lot of fans in common.

Even though it's exciting news, I cannot see how an online VTES game would effectively work without the face-to-face interaction with other players. It would be nice that they did a PC game with updatable content (new expansions etc.), just to have a centralized support to playtest decks etc (maybe similar to the old school MTG computer game). It would also be cool to play some drafts with friends. Anyway, the important thing here IMO is the relaunch of VTES, hoping that they also include the VEKN expansions. That would just be over the top!

It'd be tricky. I've been sitting here musing about it over coffee. I think the way to go would be some kind of asynchronous play on phones and tablets? I have various ideas about how it could work but I'm sure Paradox has vastly more competent people at their disposal.

> BenPeal wrote: > > > Several swedish players, including myself, know senior people at Paradox, and many of those Paradox people are old VTM-roleplayers. Just let us know if we can helt VEKN in any way with this. > > > Whatever you can do to help would be greatly appreciated. If you can point their eyes at VEKN.net and the overall V:TES community, that would be great, as it seems Paradox is keen to reach out to the player communities of WW games. Get them in touch with the VEKN ICs. Ask them to post a public statement - even if the statement is "We don't know yet" - to the public forms here on VEKN.net so the whole community can hear from them. And thanks! > And getting the email address of "the people in charge" so that communication can be established. Also, according to the article, Tobias Sjögren, CEO of the new White Wolf Publishing company will attend "a Vampire party in New Orleans this week to help celebrate and build ties with some of the game’s biggest fans." Do we have any agents there? Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> BenPeal wrote: > The two main things are US Patent No. RE 37,957 and the Deckmaster trademark on the backs of the cards. There may be other elements - I honestly don't know - but those are the two most significant ones. > Is there any sharedable-with-the-outside-world, not-under-an-NDA clarity on who owns the intellectual property rights to the cards created by WotC? Did the copyright for - say - the cards in Jyhad or Dark Sovereigns get transferred to White Wolf (then CCP, and now possibly Paradox), or was there a temporary licence for WW to use them which has expired etc? Similar for anything else that might have been created or part-created by Wizards - say, icons, the original rulebook etc.

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > Is there any sharedable-with-the-outside-world, not-under-an-NDA clarity on who owns the intellectual property rights to the cards created by WotC? Did the copyright for - say - the cards in Jyhad or Dark Sovereigns get transferred to White Wolf (then CCP, and now possibly Paradox), or was there a temporary licence for WW to use them which has expired etc? Similar for anything else that might have been created or part-created by Wizards - say, icons, the original rulebook etc. > I personally don't have that information. I'm not trying to hide it - I really don't know. When I met with Steve Wieck, I did ask "What exactly does the Wizards license involve?" but he just mentioned the aforementioned patent and Deckmaster trademark, and that there were likely some other things but he didn't have the particulars handy. By "meeting with Steve Wieck", I really mean he happened to be passing through Germany while on vacation with his family, and Johannes and I met up with them for lunch. So, it wasn't a formal meeting, but rather a casual, friendly lunch and of course we talked about V:TES a bit.

So would letters to Paradox reminding them that VTES is still being played, and that there are a lot of people who would be delighted to buy new and reprinted cards be of any help? Check out my VTES blog: Gaming with BS I also host a google doc which separates the TWDA into clans . That means I track how often clans win, which crypt groups get used, and how many people attend events. You can access all of that info here:

> brettscho wrote: > So would letters to Paradox reminding them that VTES is still being played, and that there are a lot of people who would be delighted to buy new and reprinted cards be of any help? > I would imagine so. Advertising ourselves seems like a good idea.

> BenPeal wrote: > I personally don't have that information. I'm not trying to hide it - I really don't know. When I met with Steve Wieck, I did ask "What exactly does the Wizards license involve?" but he just mentioned the aforementioned patent and Deckmaster trademark, and that there were likely some other things but he didn't have the particulars handy. By "meeting with Steve Wieck", I really mean he happened to be passing through Germany while on vacation with his family, and Johannes and I met up with them for lunch. So, it wasn't a formal meeting, but rather a casual, friendly lunch and of course we talked about V:TES a bit. > From the point of view of Steve - when CCP refuse to licence it alone for totally understandable "Defending a lawsuit is expensive, regardless of the outcome" reasons - this sort of stuff is trivia. If Wizards/Hasbro were to agree to patent and Deckmaster, this sort of stuff - can I reprint Anson? can I use the "Animalism" symbol? can I use the tri-snake symbol on cardbacks? - is really just nickle and dime contractual addenda. (Assuming you needed Wizards' consent, and that WW/CCP didn't already own those things.) In the context of a go-it-alone "Well, hmm, do we actually need Hasbro's consent?" - which wasn't the situation Steve Wieck was contemplating, obviously - it all becomes a little more murky. Can I reprint Temptation of Greater Power or Arika? Can Hasbro issue smackdowns for using the Quietus symbol? And so on. If either Paradox and/or OneBookshelf are willing to contemplate that in a world without CCP being involved, it might become more relevant.

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > In the context of a go-it-alone "Well, hmm, do we actually need Hasbro's consent?" - which wasn't the situation Steve Wieck was contemplating, obviously - it all becomes a little more murky. Can I reprint Temptation of Greater Power or Arika? Can Hasbro issue smackdowns for using the Quietus symbol? And so on. If either Paradox and/or OneBookshelf are willing to contemplate that in a world without CCP being involved, it might become more relevant. > I'm sure that Paradox would also ask the question, "Well, hmm, do we actually need to make V:TES? Can we make a new CCG with the WOD setting that doesn't involve anything Wizards did at all?" I know a lot of you will say, "Well that won't be V:TES so I won't play it", which is totally fair. You've been buying V:TES cards for 20 years and you want to keep using them. The thing is, Paradox might not see partnering with Wizards as a viable option, so we might not get what we want regardless. Is there a way to remake V:TES that would make this community happy?

> BenPeal wrote: > Is there a way to remake V:TES that would make this community happy? > This is a hard question. A part of me would say "Let´s try to keep this fantastic game intact, just secure so that we can continue what VEKN have been doing, do a kickstarter for some kind reprint". Another part of me "Let´s do a new game, keeping the best parts of VTES and removing the worst parts". I can´t really decide. Not tonight at least "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

Well, that's assuming that a video game company would want to make a card game. It will be interesting to watch what they want to do. They could very well leave the RPG stuff in the hands of Onyx Path, and whoever does the LARP stuff, and focus on making video games with the IP. And making a card game is very different from both RPGs and video games! And considering how much competition there already is for card games these days... I'm not sure I'd want to dive in. Nobody but FFG has really made the LCG model sing for them. AEG tried with doomtown, but it doesn't look like they've had anywhere near the success that FFG has had. And I don't think anybody in their right mind would release a new CCG today. I guess if I were Paradox, I'd want to bring a little bit of money in during the short-term while I work on the next big game (successor to Bloodlines?). It's interesting to me that they specifically mentioned that they would be carefully re-evaluating licensing, and they mention "uniting" the community with one World of Darkness. Maybe nWoD is getting the boot... Check out my VTES blog: Gaming with BS I also host a google doc which separates the TWDA into clans . That means I track how often clans win, which crypt groups get used, and how many people attend events. You can access all of that info here:

> brettscho wrote: > Well, that's assuming that a video game company would want to make a card game. > Yeah, I'm going to be very surprised if Paradox has decided to branch out into tabletop games of any kind. I really doubt that was the reason for their purchase.

> BenPeal wrote: > Is there a way to remake V:TES that would make this community happy? > own goal. The community could get everything it asks for and it would complain about how easy it was.

However, an interview on VentureBeat suggets they’re going even further than that. ““We’re going to start licensing out the brand again from the beginning,” said Wester. “We’ll start with one World of Darkness. We’ll start, basically, from day one to unite the community under one flag.” The feeling is that “no-one has really been paying attention to what the community has been up to in the last few years. There’s going to be an immediate change.” It'll be interesting watching this unfold, and what shape it will take..

Well here's hoping we get something, and they don't destroy the world we know... Prince of Lodi, Ca Everyone must ride with Charon, by and by. We merely wish to know what to ask him before we step onto his boat.

> Maddog wrote: > However, an interview on VentureBeat suggets they’re going even further than that. ““We’re going to start licensing out the brand again from the beginning,” said Wester. “We’ll start with one World of Darkness. We’ll start, basically, from day one to unite the community under one flag.” The feeling is that “no-one has really been paying attention to what the community has been up to in the last few years. There’s going to be an immediate change.” > This give me a positive feeling. I absolutely think Paradox can be reasoned with, providing a) WotC doesn´t mess things up, and b) what we want to do don´t interfer with any other plans they have. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> BenPeal wrote: > I'm sure that Paradox would also ask the question, "Well, hmm, do we actually need to make V:TES? Can we make a new CCG with the WOD setting that doesn't involve anything Wizards did at all?" I know a lot of you will say, "Well that won't be V:TES so I won't play it", which is totally fair. You've been buying V:TES cards for 20 years and you want to keep using them. The thing is, Paradox might not see partnering with Wizards as a viable option, so we might not get what we want regardless. Is there a way to remake V:TES that would make this community happy? > I for one do not care about my collection. If it takes a full reboot to secure the legal future of the game and grow the player base, then so be it. I just wish the format does not get dumbed down, but that almost sounds like an impossible equation: how do you broaden the appeal the game while still requiring 5 players to spend 2 hours on a single game?

Unfortunately it seems V:TES is not in their plans, althought they talk about it in the new WW page: > This vision will be realized in multiple digital games titles, across a full range of media and immersive live-action events. > Let's see what happens...

> BenPeal wrote: > Is there a way to remake V:TES that would make this community happy? > I've been tinkering with a rebuild, not sure if its at a final draft stage yet... but I might 'leak it around' to people who might want to see. Not planning to derail everything the VEKN have done, but maybe a new system would circumvent the problems of dealing with Hasbro. I think its close to a complete draft, and mostly proof-reading required. Started kicking around ideas for that probably 6 months or more ago when it seemed unlikely as an outsider that Hasbro would get off their butt enough to license the things needed for VTES. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

I suspect Paradox has other plans with WoD and will consider everything else merchandise and promotional on their products, but thats not a bad thing. Rebooting VTES however will still require all the other parties owning IP, perhaps this becomes easier for other parties if paradox backs them up politically. > BenPeal wrote: > Is there a way to remake V:TES that would make this community happy? > I feel the community is hooked to all the intricacies and quirks of VTES and since it's out of print for some time now, many people have invested a lot to get cards, so they could feel pot committed with lack of a better term. If a remake would mean incompatibility with their current collection, I suspect a lot will quit. I don't believe it's possible to remake a backwards compatible VTES if one of the goals is to circumvent IP. VTES should continue on, with PDF expansions if need be. However if VTES trudges on with PDF expansions, there still can be an alternative, but should involve people with domain knowledge in VTES who could translate all the intricacies of VTES into a new game format and perhaps make it better. So over time people will move on without causing major trauma to the community (unlike herds, communities are quite fragile due to the unavoidable individualism). Some suggestions for a new format: - Ditch predator/prey relation (last man standing wins) - Rename 'pool' to influence - Ditch term "bleeding", everything is an attack on influence - Ditch tapping (circumvent IP) - An action always costs at least 1 counter, be it influence of life - All actors (vampires,imbued, etc) have life (or essence?), no distinction (makes mechanics easier) - Keep disciplines, rename to skills, new symbols (circumvent IP). - Ditch allies (introduce werewolfs, mages and whatnot as first class citizens) - Less in-depth focus on vampire world, vamps vs mages vs werewolfs vs mummies etc. - Keep politics system, change stuff around to avoid IP - Introduce new and cool means of destroying influence - Introduce an influence ceiling as another means of winning (get 60 influence or kill the rest to win the game). So the new format encompasses whole of WoD, not just vampires, should have a faster pace and can live side by side with the out of print VTES. And VTES players can maintain hope VTES will see a reboot. Heck, start a thread "Let's make a new WoD game" and let the community join in -1 Strength

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Not planning to derail everything the VEKN have done, but maybe a new system would circumvent the problems of dealing with Hasbro. > Again, what is it that has to be delt with Hasbro about? Except the "Deckmaster" logo on the cards? "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

Do you know who owns the Discipline Logos? They aren't in the WoD books by default. They do appear in the computer games but NOT in exactly the same form. Do you know who owns the background pictures on existing VTES cards? Do you know who owns the 'back of the card' images on existing VTES cards? Do you know if the logo "Vampire: The Eternal Struggle" is Hasbro owned or not? Do you know if the 'core rulebook' is Hasbro owned or not? Do you know which vampire names might be owned by WW and Hasbro? Do you know if Hasbro will make a claim on the names of cards? ... It would seem that after around 5 transactions on the VTES IP (WW -> Wizards -> WW, Wizards -> Hasbro & WW -> CCP, WW -> Paradox) and in recent times nobody seems to have quite been sure exactly what IP belongs to who. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Do you know > Who are you asking? Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > > > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > > Do you know > > > Who are you asking? > I guess anyone who knows are free to answer. The VEKN board hopefully knows The answar I´ve noticed on several similar questions is that Paradox now owns EVERYTHING. Ie they have all rights that WW had when they made VTES themselfs. And that weird WotC "patent" has expired, if that mattered. The only thing I´m not sure of is the brand name "Deckmaster", but I guess that´s not very important. But again: Anyone who know more, please enlighten us. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Ashur wrote: > > > Ankha wrote: > > > > > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > > > Do you know > > > > > Who are you asking? > > > I guess anyone who knows are free to answer. The VEKN board hopefully knows > The V:EKN ICs, to my knowledge, do not know. I even asked Steve Wieck about it in person and received a partial answer. > The answar I´ve noticed on several similar questions is that Paradox now owns EVERYTHING. Ie they have all rights that WW had when they made VTES themselfs. And that weird WotC "patent" has expired, if that mattered. > Do you have confirmation that the patent expired and that Wizards did not renew it? > But again: Anyone who know more, please enlighten us. > To what end? Do you think there's some magical way of making V:TES without involving Wizards that nobody has thought of in the past five years?

> Ankha wrote: > > > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > > Do you know > > > Who are you asking? > Anyone who wants to make the following statements: Why don't we just print VTES without asking Hasbro? Don't WW own everything? What could they not own? Isn't the only thing Hasbro own is the 'Deckmaster' patent/image? Didn't the Deckmaster patent expire? We don't need it anyway... I'm sure there are other suitable questions and statements that require the answers to the list of questions I asked. The above list is the 'starting list'. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Ashur wrote: > The answar I´ve noticed on several similar questions is that Paradox now owns EVERYTHING. > Paradox would now own everything that CCP bought when they bought WW. That is no guarantee that they own EVERYTHING for VTES. They just own everything WW/CCP did. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Why don't we just print VTES without asking Hasbro? > Because they will sue when they find out... Thats what companies do to protect their property. > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Didn't the Deckmaster patent expire? We don't need it anyway... > You need Hasbro to: - Use the Deckmaster logo (can be circumvented) - Reprint existing cards or cards derived from existing cards (makes it harder to do it without Hasbro) - Reuse artwork, including icons etc. (makes it impossible to do it without Hasbro) Patent on game mechanics might have expired (2014?), but they still have IP as far as I know, which does not expire. Anyone putting VTES in print without Hasbro, wil lose any lawsuit that follows. -1 Strength

> GreyB wrote: > You need Hasbro to: > - Use the Deckmaster logo (can be circumvented) > - Reprint existing cards or cards derived from existing cards (makes it harder to do it without Hasbro) > - Reuse artwork, including icons etc. (makes it impossible to do it without Hasbro) > Facts or speculation? Overkill is highly underrated. You know, like in computor games and such.

> agzocgud wrote: > > > GreyB wrote: > > You need Hasbro to: > > - Use the Deckmaster logo (can be circumvented) > > - Reprint existing cards or cards derived from existing cards (makes it harder to do it without Hasbro) > > - Reuse artwork, including icons etc. (makes it impossible to do it without Hasbro) > > > Facts or speculation? > Speculation of course, but extremely plausible with facts that are known to the community. Compiled from numerous posts about this topic (unless anyone can disprove it, but no one has thusfar). IP on printed VTES until and including HttB, was in the hands of WotC and thus Hasbro. Unless IP has been handed over or sold to WoD, you will need Hasbro. Derivatory work and concepts can also fall under IP, meaning that they could try to sue you for printing a card that looks and smells like a blooddoll. One could win this trial, but they can sue you for each and every single card that looks like a card they already printed and you know they printed a lot. In short, almost certainly, one would need to be good buddies with Hasbro for a print reboot. -1 Strength

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Don't WW own everything? What could they not own? > When V:TES was revived by White Wolf, Steve Wieck stated that they co-owned it, and that White Wolf paid a licence to Wizards for that. Previously, Wizards were using the WoD and V:tM elements under licence. Steve Wieck, in 2000 : > > Steve wrote: > BTW, White Wolf and WOTC still co-own V:TES. We simply reversed the license > for it, so now we publish it and pay WOTC a royalty on sales rather than > vice versa. > It was - in part - the fact that this licence wasn't renewed that led to V:TES dying. CCP appeared to have been looking to get rid of a lot of their White Wolf physical products, but as I recall some initial work had been done on "the next set" so it didn't look like CCP were going to kill it at the point of the renewal. It's entirely possible that some of the intellectual property in V:TES was transferred to White Wolf, but it's also possible that some of it was being used under licence, or some other arrangement. For example: - the intellectual property involved in the card text of any card created by the Wizards of the Coast design teams - the intellectual property involved in the rules and rulebook. There are long-standing issues in gaming law about the copyrightability of individual mechanics, and that sort of thing. But whole works - such as an entire rulebook - are protected by copyright law. White Wolf (LSJ) clearly updated it, edited it etc., but they may have done so under licence. This also gets into the whole area of derivative works. - card art. This is one of those areas where things could get extra weird, because the original artist may have retained some rights, or may have licensed it to Wizards (or, for that matter, White Wolf/CCP) for a certain period of time or for particular uses etc. Card art can be changed, of course, and has been on a variety of library cards - but would you want to reprint older vampires with different art? - logos (not the name, the logo). Does Hasbro have any intellectual property rights over the V:TES logo? Was that transferred to White Wolf? Was it used under licence? - symbols. Who designed the symbols for things like "political action", or "Quietus"? Who owns any intellectual property rights for them?

I think the link to this interview hasn't been mentioned yet: www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/161249-White-Wolf-CEO-Interview > That said, Sjögren also made it clear that White Wolf intends to license the IP into as many channels as possible, noting that plans will include traditional tabletop roleplaying supplements. They are working with By Night Studios, the current licensee of the Mind's Eye Theater line of live-action roleplaying products, to develop more around that concept as well. > Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Almost everything here is speculation. The people who are actually in the know aren't able to share much. A few people with some degree of the know have shared the obstacles that allegedly exist. The only consistent agreement I have gotten is the fear of what lawsuits come if you continue the game in physically profitable print form and that it would likely come from WOTC. Right now I would say that based on the Minutes from the IC meeting we back off and let whatever dark society communications that are going on continue. The minutes made it sound as if real negotiations are occurring. September's game status update stated that they are looking for a whole bunch of promoter positions to be filled within the V:EKN. I think our plan now as players should be to focus on growing the player base. Get people interested in the game. An increase in demo and event attendance will show any company or group that there is a desire for the game and from a desire for a game comes potential profits. Businesses like profits.

> BenPeal wrote: > > > But again: Anyone who know more, please enlighten us. > > > To what end? Do you think there's some magical way of making V:TES without involving Wizards that nobody has thought of in the past five years? > Why this attitude? To the end that I want to know, isn´t that enough? It´s a little troubling if the VEKN IC board doesn´t know who owns what rights for the game, if it has been their aim to find out how to get it printed again. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Ashur wrote: > > > BenPeal wrote: > > > > > But again: Anyone who know more, please enlighten us. > > > > > To what end? Do you think there's some magical way of making V:TES without involving Wizards that nobody has thought of in the past five years? > > > Why this attitude? To the end that I want to know, isn´t that enough? > > It´s a little troubling if the VEKN IC board doesn´t know who owns what rights for the game, if it has been their aim to find out how to get it printed again. > Communication over the Internet is sometimes awkward, but you appear to be making two assumptions: - The V:EKN ICs are either uninterested or not doing enough to gather all of the information about what properties are owned and who owns them. Like pretty much everyone else here, the V:EKN ICs are very interested in this information and they've tried to get it. Wizards is not communicative. I met face to face with someone who is a co-founder of White Wolf, on the board of directors for CCP, and the owner of OneBookShelf and asked for the very information you're looking for, and he only provided a partial answer. - The rights holders would even want to tell us in the first place. We are looking for very detailed and comprehensive information about what properties these companies own. Why would they divulge this to us? What is the business reason for them? And again I ask, what would we even do with this information? We already know that Wizards owns stuff and CCP (now Paradox) owns stuff, and all that stuff is needed to make V:TES. It seems to me as though people are trying to argue that Wizards really doesn't own stuff after all. That's not the case.

> BenPeal wrote: > - The rights holders would even want to tell us in the first place. > Yes, I´m more into this angle, as I guess VEKN are doing their best. > BenPeal wrote: > We are looking for very detailed and comprehensive information about what properties these companies own. Why would they divulge this to us? What is the business reason for them? > Goodwill reason? Not being assholes? Make VEKN stop asking questions? > BenPeal wrote: > And again I ask, what would we even do with this information? We already know that Wizards owns stuff and CCP (now Paradox) owns stuff, and all that stuff is needed to make V:TES. > With this information you can help get the game in print again, which is what VEKN wants. > BenPeal wrote: > It seems to me as though people are trying to argue that Wizards really doesn't own stuff after all. That's not the case. > Hehe, yeah, they own stuff, but nobody seem to know what. Yes, it is awkward communication on the internet. But the reason I want to know who owns what is so that the game can be in print again. Unless it´s important that this ownership things are kept a secret. In that case I will shut up. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

It is clear that we have the following as a start: - Onebookshelf is interested in printing, distributing and selling VtES. - Paradox bought the WoD IP and want to (the very least) launch digital entertainment in the franchise. They have stated that the WoD community (so far, 100% non-digital) needs to be given better attention. WoD has always been book and card based. Parabox will want to cater to these hardcore fans. - WotC likes to make money. I assume. How about a meeting between onebookshelf, VEKN and Paradox? If onebookshef and Paradox find a common ground, it might be easier for them to talk with Wizards. Or Hasbro.

So, the White-Wolf homepage has a spiel from Paradox on it. Second paragraph in, mentions the 2 PC games, hunter video games, then we the next sentence mentions Richard Garfeild making vampire the eternal struggle in '94, the "third tcg ever" accordinnog to them. We aren't ignored, but we are just a bragging right currently. They own whatever CCP didn't publish on vtes, per the deal. So, they are gonna do everything involving "the right designers" and getting fan input? Maybe we need to just have random as hell conversations in the middle of forums about the buy? Every other page, 3-4 people. Just to be relevant. If someone who we aren't familiar with chimes in, it validates our cause, right? "Blah blah nwod sux blah" ----"blahblah troll blah" " what are they doing with vtes? Id love to see the vekn sets printed, lots of cool new crypt options" "I hope they run with it. The new Gangrel stuff is sick as hell" You get the idea.

> Ashur wrote: > > > BenPeal wrote: > > We are looking for very detailed and comprehensive information about what properties these companies own. Why would they divulge this to us? What is the business reason for them? > > > Goodwill reason? Not being assholes? Make VEKN stop asking questions? > They will happily sue entities out of business, their 'asshole' status is writ large already. > Ashur wrote: > > > BenPeal wrote: > > It seems to me as though people are trying to argue that Wizards really doesn't own stuff after all. That's not the case. > > > Hehe, yeah, they own stuff, but nobody seem to know what. > And based on the situation quoted above, with Wizards suing them out of existence, testing the waters to find out what they own is basically a recipe for losing your house. > Ashur wrote: > Yes, it is awkward communication on the internet. But the reason I want to know who owns what is so that the game can be in print again. Unless it´s important that this ownership things are kept a secret. In that case I will shut up. > I doubt we are ever going to know exactly, because Wizards-Hasbro have no reason to divulge what they own. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

ok... i'm a littel confused over here, i feel Ashur and me we are on the same point. Why VEKN ICs aren't going more deeper in that ?? I Know we are thousands of players in the community, but we are some really diehard guys around the forums. Why we dont crowdfunding a Lawyer to make the investigation about that patents for us, maybe a USA player it's inside this kind of lawyer bussiness and it can help us, no ??... I'm not too much deep in States laws, but for sure the info about what wizards owns and what dosent owns, needs to be public. For good sake !! they are a fucking company, they starve for make tons of money and sell again a license for a stupid game only a bunch non-mtg gamers plays, it will significant profit for don't do nothing for them !! why that info it's so elusive !!?? Bean knows i'm searching for answer to that for a very long time in facebook we have some chat about that a month or two ago. I think we need to do this as a community because now is the time we are waiting since the fucking morons of CCP buy WW.... it's fucking now or never !! VEKN ICs needs to make an extra effort to move through this RIGHT FUCKING NOW or we are going to loss the momentum to put our community in the line... I'm just saying

I asked paradox and this was the answer. cordovader said: I guess it's too soon but... Do you plan doing something with V:TES? And if the answer is affirmative, are you willing to take a look on the "official" V:EKN extensions? I think the community would appreciate it. We're really excited about the news. Shams said: We are huge CCG fans at Paradox. I've persnally played Magic since 1995 - competitively since 2000 - and I'm in charge of finding/deciding which new projects to pursue. I'd love to at least explore the possibility. /shams

> cordovader wrote: > I asked paradox and this was the answer. > > cordovader said: > > I guess it's too soon but... > > Do you plan doing something with V:TES? And if the answer is affirmative, are you willing to take a look on the "official" V:EKN extensions? I think the community would appreciate it. > > We're really excited about the news. > > Shams said: > > We are huge CCG fans at Paradox. I've persnally played Magic since 1995 - competitively since 2000 - and I'm in charge of finding/deciding which new projects to pursue. > > I'd love to at least explore the possibility. > > /shams > We need to convert this guy ASAP. Vtes is something I wasn't "into" until after I'd played competitive MTG, and we all know how long the learning curve is, but it sounds promising.

Here´s some about the state of Onyx Path, and I guess the same thing is true for VTES: Keep cool. People are being nice. Things are happening, not sure about exactly what yet. Link: theonyxpath.com/a-pair-of-ducks-bought-white-wolf-monday-meeting-notes/ "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

An interview with new White Wolf CEO Tobias Sjögren on Rock Paper Shotgun: www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/11/09/white-wolf-interview/ The part you care about most: > RPS: And a final question for those fans who I know are still out there: Any plans to revive Vampire: The Eternal Struggle, the card game? > > Sjögren: One of many great products we have the pleasure to now be able to work with for sure and we got a lot of requests and ideas from the community about VtES. Regarding plans we’ll get back on that when we have something concrete. >

On that interview Ben just linked, Tobias Sjögren says: "The plan right now is trying to participate in as many World of Darkness community events as possible to be able to meet and talk to the fans out there." I know, you just had your nationals, but are our Swedish players a game to arrange an another big tournament, say early next year? Send an invitation to Paradox guys, perhaps with an evening of tutoring thrown in for previous night.

> Whisker wrote: > On that interview Ben just linked, Tobias Sjögren says: > > "The plan right now is trying to participate in as many World of Darkness community events as possible to be able to meet and talk to the fans out there." > > I know, you just had your nationals, but are our Swedish players a game to arrange an another big tournament, say early next year? Send an invitation to Paradox guys, perhaps with an evening of tutoring thrown in for previous night. > That's an excellent idea!

> BenPeal wrote: > > > Whisker wrote: > > On that interview Ben just linked, Tobias Sjögren says: > > > > "The plan right now is trying to participate in as many World of Darkness community events as possible to be able to meet and talk to the fans out there." > > > > I know, you just had your nationals, but are our Swedish players a game to arrange an another big tournament, say early next year? Send an invitation to Paradox guys, perhaps with an evening of tutoring thrown in for previous night. > > > That's an excellent idea! > I'll try to bring French players there. Or shouldn't I? Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director