Card Idea: Exoskeleton

Exoskeleton Type: Combat Cost: 1 blood [vic] Put this card on this vampire with 3 bone counters. Burn a bone counter to prevent a point of damage this vampire suffers this round. A vampire can play only one Exoskeleton in a combat. Burn this card when it has no bone counters. [VIC]As Above, but with 4 bone counters. this vampire may burn a bone counter to prevent a point of damage this vampire suffers this combat or Exoskeleton Type: Combat Cost: 1 blood [vic] Put this card on this vampire with 3 bone counters. Burn a bone counter to prevent a point of non aggravated damage this vampire suffers this combat. A vampire can play only one Exoskeleton per combat.Burn this card when it has no bone counters. [VIC]As above, however 4 bone counters. This vampire may burn a bone counter to prevent a point of damage this combat[/b] My wording is incredibly clumsy and could be improved of course. Exoskeleton Type: Combat Cost: 1 blood Exoskeleton: vicissitude: This vampire may prevent 1 damage.. VICISSITUDE: This vampire may prevent 2 damage. World of Darkness reference: The vicissitude discipline Bone craft, allows the Tzimisce to sculpture their bones to create bone exoskeleton plates of armor and bone spikes on their body, reducing damage received in battle. Tzimisce also do this when making Szlachta, which are a type of ghoul soldiers/bodyguards/sentries. A typical szlachta has spikes, thick armored plates or both, which increases the ghoul’s capacity to resist wounds. The Tzimisce also made Vozhd (War Ghoul) which is a massive walking biological weapon of flesh-and-bone, incredibly tough Resilient due to excessive thick skin tissue and bone plated carapaces. Art notes: Tzimiche with a bone spiked exoskeleton, being struck in the chest by another vampire wielding a sword. How does this card address a compelling game need? Vicissitude has only one combat card that prevents normal damage and aggravated damage while allowing you to strike in combat, which is Horrid Form. Which needs to be played before range, so even if you draw into a horrid form while in combat it is not going to help you prevent damage. The card proposal allows you to prevent and play it as you can with other prevention cards. Or... Re: Card proposal : Exoskeleton#73974Today 19:19 How about.. Exoskeleton Type: Combat Exoskeleton: vicissitude: This vampire may burn 1 life on an Ally or Retainer they control to prevent 1 damage this vampire takes in combat. Or this vampire may burn an addition 1 blood to give an Ally +1 strength in combat VICISSITUDE: This vampire may burn 1 blood to prevent 2 points of damage in combat from a minion. Do not replace until combat has ended. or vicissitude: This vampire may burn 1 life from an Ally or Retainer they control to prevent 1 damage this vampire takes in combat. Or this vampire may burn 1 blood to prevent 1 point of damage to an Ally or retainer they control. VICISSITUDE: This vampire may burn 1 blood to prevent 2 points of damage in combat from a minion. Do not replace until combat has ended. Could add: use before strikes, use before combat ect...Also I should maybe add some clause- this card can not be used on a War Ghoul to prevent damage to a War Ghoul or to add +1 strength as they are strong enough already. Edited for changes

Giving vicissitude a card that is exactly like "skin of rock" is not an interesting design choice. Also, making major changes to a vampire's body with vicissitude generally costs blood. For the sake of the card game, game balance supercedes that guideline. Also, keep in mind that vicissitude is balanced around cards costing blood: there are many mechanics to reduce the costs, and the cards are powerful enough to warrant. Free damage prevention makes it easier to manage blood, and when designing a damage prevention card for a discipline that requires more careful blood management you should take that into account. My recommendation would be to make a damage prevention card that costs blood, and is ongoing (a permanent attach to vampire, or works every round of combat) OR has another effect making it worth the blood cost. Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

Thanks for your feedback and suggestions. I will take them into account.

So... now it has the same card text as Apparition (Chimerstry) Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

> direwolf wrote: > So... now it has the same card text as Apparition (Chimerstry) > I quite like the idea of damage prevention via an exoskeleton, but also would quite like to see it work a different way. Just throwing something together... Exoskeleton Action/Combat 1 blood [vic] [action] +1 stealth action. Put this card on this vampire with SOME (4? 5?) bone counters. Burn a bone counter to prevent a point of damage this vampire suffers in combat.(*) A vampire can have only one Exoskeleton. Burn this card when it has no bone counters. [VIC] [combat] As above, but you may play this as a combat card. (*) There's a better wording, I'm sure. But I'd quite like it to be repeatable - so you can prevent 2 from the same strike, or two from this strike and two from an additional strike (Blurred gun etc.). Mostly because things like Flak Jacket are rubbish for their one damage. In power terms, the idea would be to try to hit a sweet spot where it's good - but because of the "one per vampire" limitation, you can't stuff your deck with them and cycle them really easily (as you usually can with, say, Skin of Rock), so you have to be careful about the number you include. There's a sweet spot somewhere, I think.

James' suggestion is similar to Ablative Skin, except for the part where it can be used as a combat card.... but still, I do not feel too much inspiration right now.... B-) "It was a perfect plan - until it had contact with reality" --- Hardy Range Playgroup Tradition Compliance Manager

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > > > direwolf wrote: > > So... now it has the same card text as Apparition (Chimerstry) > > > I quite like the idea of damage prevention via an exoskeleton, but also would quite like to see it work a different way. > > Just throwing something together... > > Exoskeleton > Action/Combat > 1 blood > [vic] [action] +1 stealth action. Put this card on this vampire with SOME (4? 5?) bone counters. Burn a bone counter to prevent a point of damage this vampire suffers in combat.(*) A vampire can have only one Exoskeleton. Burn this card when it has no bone counters. > [VIC] [combat] As above, but you may play this as a combat card. > > (*) There's a better wording, I'm sure. But I'd quite like it to be repeatable - so you can prevent 2 from the same strike, or two from this strike and two from an additional strike (Blurred gun etc.). Mostly because things like Flak Jacket are rubbish for their one damage. > > In power terms, the idea would be to try to hit a sweet spot where it's good - but because of the "one per vampire" limitation, you can't stuff your deck with them and cycle them really easily (as you usually can with, say, Skin of Rock), so you have to be careful about the number you include. There's a sweet spot somewhere, I think. > Thanks for the constructive feedback James, I like your ideas re: bone counters. Like many of us, I play many decks with fortitude for the freak drives and damage prevention, however I never play "Ablative Skin" due to it being an action, and there being more fortitude damage prevention options that I like better. And of course you are spoilt for choice with fortitude, damage prevention being such a big part of the discipline. This action/combat card may be similar to Ablative skin, however I like it as it's a more interesting idea than my original proposal, also your correct regarding finding the right balance. What do you think of:- Exoskeleton Type: Combat Cost: 1 blood [vic] Put this card on this vampire with 3 bone counters. Burn a bone counter to prevent a point of damage this vampire suffers this round. A vampire can play only one Exoskeleton in a combat. Burn this card when it has no bone counters. [VIC]As Above, but with 4 bone counters. this vampire may burn a bone counter to prevent a point of damage this vampire suffers this combat or Exoskeleton Type: Combat Cost: 1 blood [vic] Put this card on this vampire with 3 bone counters. Burn a bone counter to prevent a point of non aggravated damage this vampire suffers this combat. A vampire can play only one Exoskeleton per combat.Burn this card when it has no bone counters. [VIC]As above, however 4 bone counters. This vampire may burn a bone counter to prevent a point of damage this combat.

How about: Exoskeleton 2 Only usable before range is determined. Put this card on this vampire with 3 bone counters. This vampire may burn a bone counter to reduce the damage from a single source to 0. Burn this card when it has 0 counters. A vampire may only have one Exoskeleton. As above, with 5 bone counters. Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

> direwolf wrote: > How about: > > Exoskeleton > > 2 > Only usable before range is determined. > Put this card on this vampire with 3 bone counters. This vampire may burn a bone counter to reduce the damage from a single source to 0. Burn this card when it has 0 counters. A vampire may only have one Exoskeleton. > As above, with 5 bone counters. > I quite like it. With the "reduce from a single source" rather than "prevent", the inferior is fairly strong too. If it turned out too strong, I might consider "to reduce the damage from a single source to 0 by 2", or something like that. It's not currently restricted to in-combat damage; is that a problem? Rutor's Hand, Force of Will... Hmm.

presumably this would work on damage that is specifically non-preventable?

> self wrote: > presumably this would work on damage that is specifically non-preventable? > Damage reduction and damage prevention are different things. Unpreventable damage can be reduced. [LSJ 20100519] > > LSJ wrote: > > Or, to put it another way: is reducing damage equivalent to prevent? > > No. Unpreventable damage can be reduced. > (The context is Nephandus.)

> direwolf wrote: > How about: > > Exoskeleton > > 2 > Only usable before range is determined. > Put this card on this vampire with 3 bone counters. This vampire may burn a bone counter to reduce the damage from a single source to 0. Burn this card when it has 0 counters. A vampire may only have one Exoskeleton. > As above, with 5 bone counters. > I like the damage reduction to 0 idea. I assume your proposed version of this card stays on the vampire outside combat until counters is 0? Maybe "reduce the damage in combat from a single source to 0" To avoid exploitation outside combat

> direwolf wrote: > How about: > > Exoskeleton > > 2 > Only usable before range is determined. > Put this card on this vampire with 3 bone counters. This vampire may burn a bone counter to reduce the damage from a single source to 0. Burn this card when it has 0 counters. A vampire may only have one Exoskeleton. > As above, with 5 bone counters. > Way too strong. Even if you restrict the damage prevention to combat sources only, in order to remove the ability to use this to break Daring the Dawn, this card is easily as good as any number of Fortitude damage prevention cards. That's pretty far outside Vicissitude's bailiwick as a toolbox discipline that sacrifices individually powerful cards for flexibility.

> Kushiel wrote: > Way too strong. Even if you restrict the damage prevention to combat sources only, in order to remove the ability to use this to break Daring the Dawn, this card is easily as good as any number of Fortitude damage prevention cards. That's pretty far outside Vicissitude's bailiwick as a toolbox discipline that sacrifices individually powerful cards for flexibility. > I don't know how strong it is - remember that it costs 2 blood! There aren't a lot of cards in this game that cost 2 blood and still get used regularly. I suppose that it feels a little strong to me right now. I'd be tempted to leave the text as is, but make it a action (at +1 stealth) to put the card on a minion. Or I would keep it as a combat card and allow the tokens to be removed to prevent 1 damage each. Check out my VTES blog: Gaming with BS I also host a google doc which separates the TWDA into clans . That means I track how often clans win, which crypt groups get used, and how many people attend events. You can access all of that info here:

> brettscho wrote: > I don't know how strong it is - remember that it costs 2 blood! There aren't a lot of cards in this game that cost 2 blood and still get used regularly. > It costs two blood but nets you at least three, and that amount scales upward from there, depending on what other people at the table are playing. There's a reason that you don't see other examples of cards like that being played, because they'd get killed in playtest, if they even made it that far. Additionally, remember that there's a very good Tzimisce who reduces the cost of Vicissitude cards as well as a Tzim clan card which does the same (which they're very well-suited to defending). > brettscho wrote: > I suppose that it feels a little strong to me right now. I'd be tempted to leave the text as is, but make it a action (at +1 stealth) to put the card on a minion. Or I would keep it as a combat card and allow the tokens to be removed to prevent 1 damage each. > Agreed. In addition to being better than most Foritude damage prevention cards in terms of raw amounts of damage prevented, one of the reasons it's so overpowered in this form is that its opportunity cost for being played is very low, unlike other damage prevention cards. Making it an action would reduce that significantly, though it doesn't answer the question of why Vicissitude should have powerful damage prevention in the first place.

> Kushiel wrote: > it doesn't answer the question of why Vicissitude should have powerful damage prevention in the first place. > Pretty much any circumstance can be backed up with creative storytelling. In this case, a vampire with Viscissitude might go as far as to graft bone into her skin, thereby creating an exoskeleton. As far as game balance, it should read "in combat." Maybe "once per round." You want to nerf it further? It could read "this vampire burns a blood and a bone counter to..." Another option is to make it multi-discipline. having the first text for and the second text for (or if you are feeling stingy.) Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

> direwolf wrote: > Pretty much any circumstance can be backed up with creative storytelling. In this case, a vampire with Viscissitude might go as far as to graft bone into her skin, thereby creating an exoskeleton. > Sorry if I was unclear. I was talking about the fact that there hasn't been a compelling case advanced for the mechanical reason to give Vicissitude a damage prevention option that rivals the options found in Fortitude. Maddog's only proffered reason seemed to be that Vicissitude doesn't have good damage prevention options, and therefore it should, which…well, by that reasoning every other discipline needs the same kinds of cards.

> Kushiel wrote: > Sorry if I was unclear. I was talking about the fact that there hasn't been a compelling case advanced for the mechanical reason to give Vicissitude a damage prevention option that rivals the options found in Fortitude. > While the damage prevention element isn't explicitly covered, the basic idea that maddog appears to be working from is in vekn.net/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/73295-card-idea-zulo-warform - Vicissitude has good combat options, but they're very narrow, and wouldn't it be nice if Vicissitude had some other options that players could use, and hey lore-wise that would match up with Vicissitude being quite fearsome in the WoD too. (Personally, I was thinking of grafting on an extra arm and getting additional strikes...)

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > > > Kushiel wrote: > > Sorry if I was unclear. I was talking about the fact that there hasn't been a compelling case advanced for the mechanical reason to give Vicissitude a damage prevention option that rivals the options found in Fortitude. > > > While the damage prevention element isn't explicitly covered, the basic idea that maddog appears to be working from is in vekn.net/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/73295-card-idea-zulo-warform - Vicissitude has good combat options, but they're very narrow, and wouldn't it be nice if Vicissitude had some other options that players could use, and hey lore-wise that would match up with Vicissitude being quite fearsome in the WoD too. > > (Personally, I was thinking of grafting on an extra arm and getting additional strikes...) > Chiroptean Marauder and Breath of the Dragon are fearsome enough. I'm not sure that adding another "fearsome" card would bring something interesting for them (it's not because it's another option that is it interesting). Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > While the damage prevention element isn't explicitly covered, the basic idea that maddog appears to be working from is in vekn.net/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/73295-card-idea-zulo-warform - Vicissitude has good combat options, but they're very narrow, and wouldn't it be nice if Vicissitude had some other options that players could use, and hey lore-wise that would match up with Vicissitude being quite fearsome in the WoD too. > Ah, okay. I'm not convinced by that - Vicissitude is perfectly good as a combat-plus-other-stuff discipline at the moment, and I don't remember it ever being a top tier combat discipline in the RPG either. But at least that's an argument, even if it's one that doesn't sway me.

Vicissitude's thematics still allow interesting growth options in the form of more allies/retainers and further actions and modifiers to work Vicissitude changes upon them. I'm thinking Lobotomy here, which was a cool card but needed a lower opportunity cost rather than requiring outright use as the ally was recruited. Drain

> brettscho wrote: > > > Kushiel wrote: > > Way too strong. Even if you restrict the damage prevention to combat sources only, in order to remove the ability to use this to break Daring the Dawn, this card is easily as good as any number of Fortitude damage prevention cards. That's pretty far outside Vicissitude's bailiwick as a toolbox discipline that sacrifices individually powerful cards for flexibility. > > > I don't know how strong it is - remember that it costs 2 blood! There aren't a lot of cards in this game that cost 2 blood and still get used regularly. I suppose that it feels a little strong to me right now. I'd be tempted to leave the text as is, but make it a action (at +1 stealth) to put the card on a minion. Or I would keep it as a combat card and allow the tokens to be removed to prevent 1 damage each. > Good point Bresttscho, I think your correct regarding combat cards costing 2 blood not being used regularly. When I think about vicissitude I seen Body arsenal, blood of acid, or Liquefy the Mortal Coil not played or very rarely in game, Jol, lackey and torni's. I think you are right regarding the card being to strong in regards to reducing damage to 0, also having the card stay on the vampire while there is still bone counters on it may be overpowered as a combat card. I've reduced the damage reduction, and the card is burnt at when combat is ended as opposed to staying on the vampire as long as there are bone counters on card. I'm trying to keep this proposal balanced and hope the cost to be 1 blood and not 2+ blood cost. Exoskeleton Type: Combat Cost: 1 blood [vic] Put this card on this vampire with 2 bone counters. Burn a bone counter to prevent a point of damage this vampire suffers this combat. A vampire can play only one Exoskeleton in a combat. Burn this card at the end of combat. [VIC]As Above, but with 3 bone counters. this vampire may burn a bone counter to prevent a point of damage this vampire suffers this combat.

> Maddog wrote: > Exoskeleton > Type: Combat > Cost: 1 blood > [vic] Put this card on this vampire with 2 bone counters. Burn a bone counter to prevent a point of damage this vampire suffers this combat. A vampire can play only one Exoskeleton in a combat. Burn this card at the end of combat. > [VIC]As Above, but with 3 bone counters. this vampire may burn a bone counter to prevent a point of damage this vampire suffers this combat. > You're re-stating the "burn a counter" clause at superior slightly differently. Are you intending some sort of difference - such as the prevention being non-optional at inferior (i.e. you have to prevent the first two damage you take)? If the card isn't permanent, I'd avoid the counters and just go with: A vampire can play only one Exoskeleton per combat. [vic] This vampire can prevent up to 2 damage this combat. [VIC] This vampire can prevent up to 3 damage this combat. Possibly with a timing clause - before range is determined, or before strikes are chosen, or somesuch.

I think that any damage prevention card given to vicissitude should have a "from the opposing minion's strike" clause like Rego Motus. I assume that Rego Motus was written that way to prevent shenanigans with Burst of Sunlight, and a vicissitude card should be wary about similar shenanigans with Breath of the Dragon. Check out my VTES blog: Gaming with BS I also host a google doc which separates the TWDA into clans . That means I track how often clans win, which crypt groups get used, and how many people attend events. You can access all of that info here:

> brettscho wrote: > I think that any damage prevention card given to vicissitude should have a "from the opposing minion's strike" clause like Rego Motus. I assume that Rego Motus was written that way to prevent shenanigans with Burst of Sunlight, and a vicissitude card should be wary about similar shenanigans with Breath of the Dragon. > The interaction between Rego Motus and Burst became somewhat less relevant with the printing of Flames of the Netherworld , given you get first round agg damage out of it. There's still a niche for Burst of Sunlight - extra damage at the superior, usable at close range - but the walls haven't exactly come tumbling down now that Thaumaturgy has first round, non-self-immolating agg damage. And if a Tzimisce deck really wants to mess with you at close range without immolating itself, Chiropteran Marauder (with VIC) is also available - and at two cards and two blood (one for Breath, one for Exo) at inferior Vicissitude, it's unlikely to be super popular, I'd've thought.

Exoskeleton Type: Combat Cost: 1 blood Only usable before strikes are chosen. A vampire can play only one Exoskeleton per combat. [vic] This vampire can prevent up to 2 damage from an opposing minion this combat. [VIC] As above, prevent up to 3 damage. I take your point re: bone counters and timing clause James.

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > Some excellent points > Yeah, I actually agree with you. I think I'm over-estimating the likelihood that Breath of the Dragon + this card could be a problem. You've officially swayed me Check out my VTES blog: Gaming with BS I also host a google doc which separates the TWDA into clans . That means I track how often clans win, which crypt groups get used, and how many people attend events. You can access all of that info here:

Huh... could have sworn I hit "Cancel" instead of "Submit"... does anybody know how to delete a post? Thanks! Check out my VTES blog: Gaming with BS I also host a google doc which separates the TWDA into clans . That means I track how often clans win, which crypt groups get used, and how many people attend events. You can access all of that info here:

> brettscho wrote: > Huh... could have sworn I hit "Cancel" instead of "Submit"... does anybody know how to delete a post? Thanks! > Good question, I don't know either. I just login and edit.

> brettscho wrote: > Huh... could have sworn I hit "Cancel" instead of "Submit"... does anybody know how to delete a post? Thanks! > Cancel doesn't work , and hasn't done for several years . If you find yourself writing a post/reply and don't want to submit it - just navigate away to another page. Hit one of the Forum links at the top of the page or something. If you find you've posted something and want to delete it, the easiest thing to do is Edit the post and just wipe the content. Maybe replacing it with something like "Deleted - posted in error", or whatever.

Thank you both for the information. I'll stop derailing the thread now Check out my VTES blog: Gaming with BS I also host a google doc which separates the TWDA into clans . That means I track how often clans win, which crypt groups get used, and how many people attend events. You can access all of that info here:

> Drain wrote: > Vicissitude's thematics still allow interesting growth options in the form of more allies/retainers and further actions and modifiers to work Vicissitude changes upon them. I'm thinking Lobotomy here, which was a cool card but needed a lower opportunity cost rather than requiring outright use as the ally was recruited. > > Drain > Lobotomy might be used more if it didn't have the "cannot use maneuvers" part in it. Then again maybe with a few traps, and/or other presses could make up for the no allowed maneuver clause.

> Maddog wrote: > Lobotomy might be used more if it didn't have the "cannot use maneuvers" part in it. Then again maybe with a few traps, and/or other presses could make up for the no allowed maneuver clause. > When looking at Lobotomy, I find myself thinking that the right thing to do is just block the action requiring Dominate/Presence, rather than faff about with cards like this. Wakes, Eys of Argus, Telepathic Misdirection, Guard Dogs or whatever are probably stronger cards all round, for when people aren't playing Far Mastery or Entrancement etc. Or if you're playing lots of War Ghouls, just eat the relevant vampires first. Presence Entrancement is probably the more annoying option there from the point of view of the Tzimisce player, as it's one of the cards of that ilk that's solid to build a deck around if you want to - so you do occasionally find players playing a solid clutch of Entrancement, so you probably can't eat all their vampires right away. The biggest problem as it is is, as Drain said , probably the opportunity cost - needing it right at the moment of recruitment is annoying, and it probably needs more oomph to offset that. But giving more oomph to a War Ghoul probably isn't a good idea - so then you probably do want to reduce the opportunity cost somewhat. An action that untaps you, maybe? But even then... would I just prefer to have some better tool in hand instead, so I don't find myself annoyingly drawing into an ally enhancer mid-block or mid-combat?

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > The biggest problem as it is is, as Drain said , probably the opportunity cost - needing it right at the moment of recruitment is annoying, and it probably needs more oomph to offset that. But giving more oomph to a War Ghoul probably isn't a good idea - so then you probably do want to reduce the opportunity cost somewhat. An action that untaps you, maybe? But even then... would I just prefer to have some better tool in hand instead, so I don't find myself annoyingly drawing into an ally enhancer mid-block or mid-combat? > Oh, this one's easy: change up a card like the one being proposed to be the two things; an ally enhancer at basic (effect could simply mimick flak/leather jacket) and a (this is important) sub-par prevention card at superior. Something like "Prevent 2 from opposing minion's strike" could serve as ballpark, given the versatility. Drain

How about.. Exoskeleton Type: Combat Exoskeleton: vicissitude: This vampire may burn 1 life on an Ally or Retainer they control to prevent 1 damage this vampire takes in combat. Or this vampire may burn an addition 1 blood to give an Ally +1 strength in combat VICISSITUDE: This vampire may burn 1 blood to prevent 2 points of damage in combat from a minion. Do not replace until combat has ended. or vicissitude: This vampire may burn 1 life from an Ally or Retainer they control to prevent 1 damage this vampire takes in combat. Or this vampire may burn 1 blood to prevent 1 point of damage to an Ally or retainer they control. VICISSITUDE: This vampire may burn 1 blood to prevent 2 points of damage in combat from a minion. Do not replace until combat has ended. Could add: use before strikes, use before combat ect...Also I should maybe add some clause- this card can not be used on a War Ghoul to prevent damage to a War Ghoul or to add +1 strength as they are strong enough already.