Thrown Sewer Lid or Slam?

I am working on a POT-Deck at the moment and wonder, if I should use rather Lids or Slams to get around possible maneuvers in other decks? Versus normal Animalismdecks and their Aid from Bat-combat Slam should be better, because after playing that card I can Immortal Grapple the other minion. I'm unsure against Guns or Ahrimanes though. What do you think? Baron of Frankfurt

If you are worried about or guns combat, have you also considered using Earthshock? I would not use Thrown Sewer Lid because of its range restriction. Earthschock cannot be used under Immortal Grapple though, but, since I do not know what kind of deck are you trying to build, I cannot be more helpful V:EKN Website Coordinator

I'm using lid now, it's really fail to use slam an then hitting air when they got one more manuever. NC Russia

> Joscha wrote: > I am working on a POT-Deck at the moment and wonder, if I should use rather Lids or Slams to get around possible maneuvers in other decks? > Depends. Are you using a lot of IG? Do you have maneuvers otherwise? Do most of your minions have POT? If you have reliable maneuvers (Flash, say), and want to occasionally be at long, go with Lid. If your plan is to have POT and IG folks, use Slam. If you don't figure that you'll be able to out maneuver folks and just want to punch someone who runs away, and have some guys with pot, use Lid.

Yeah, the big question is: Are you planning the "Hug & Punch" or the "Death Ninja Star" style potence deck? Hug & Punch should be Slam, cards that give +strength, Immortal Grapple, Taste of Vitae and maybe Street Cred (which you can play before the Taste). Death Ninja Star should be Psyches, Flash, Thrown Sewer Lids, additional strikes (probably Pursuits) and Inceased Strength to really make those lids pack an extra crunch. Taste of Vitae if you think you're likely to be losing blood to actions or reactions. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

you can play both, if you play 90 cards, you can play 5 / 6 Thrown Sewer Lids ( you can unjam them while using bum's rush maneuver, and use the press of the lid ), and if you use slam as a strike ( play 8/10, a little more than your Thrown Sewer Lids), you'll use the press of the IG ..

Or, you could use Thrown Gate + Target Vitals. Target Vitals is so good, that you can add it to almost any combat deck. I count out POT/CEL decks that use signposts, grapples and additional strikes to deal massive amount of damage. But, if you want to have a reliable combat module at both short and close range, use thrown gate. ---- Banging trashcans, breaking windows We'll wake you up tonight We like the good time, we scream and shout And that's what fun's about

> Joscha wrote: > I am working on a POT-Deck at the moment and wonder, if I should use rather Lids or Slams to get around possible maneuvers in other decks? Versus normal Animalismdecks and their Aid from Bat-combat Slam should be better, because after playing that card I can Immortal Grapple the other minion. I'm unsure against Guns or Ahrimanes though. What do you think? > I prefer Stunt Cycle which doesn't cost blood, prevent damange and works extremely well against animalism (since they usually don't have celerity). Thrown Sewer Lid would be next, but Slam is bad since it costs 1. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Stunt Cycle is only usable at long range, Slam not, so I think that it is of no use in a deck. pckvtes.wordpress.com

A lot of decks move to long range by themselves, and the stunt cycles are then useful. If you're happy enough to fight against a deck that doesn't maneuver, just use one of your other combat cards and discard the Stunt Cycle later. Of course, I won't play more than 5 Stunt Cycle, but you can play them in a deck with no maneuvers. Besides, Bum's Rush provides a maneuver, and I think his potence deck plays some. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Sorry guys, I should have been more specific. I plan to use POT to Immo grab, do more damage and Disarm afterwards. I don't plan to add maneuvers, because I like to keep the combat slim (as slim as possible without losing effectivity). I'm searching for a good way to handle possible maneuvers in a tournament environment. I will post the whole deck later and you can look, if it could work out. Baron of Frankfurt

There are three possibilites: 1/ the opponent doesn't play any maneuver 2/ the opponent plays at most 1 maneuver (Aid from bats) 3/ the opponent plays many maneuvers (gun with cel, arhimane with swiftness) Globally, if you want to add as few cards to handle this as possible, you musn't enter in a contest of maneuvers you'll lose but rather play long rang solutions, even if you won't be able to play Grapple (anyway, it's quite rare to play against a deck that plays both maneuvers and S:CE!) Slam is not good I think because it's not necessary in case 1, costs too much in case 2 (compared to a free grid/sewer lid/stunt cycle) and is useless in case 3 (and costs blood). Adding 5 Gates/Lids/Stunt cycles should be enough win some fights (you won't be able to win all of them anyway). Each of them has its own pros/cons. Think about adding some Anarch Troublemaker if you play in an equipment heavy environment. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Joscha wrote: > Sorry guys, I should have been more specific. I plan to use POT to Immo grab, do more damage and Disarm afterwards. I don't plan to add maneuvers, because I like to keep the combat slim (as slim as possible without losing effectivity). I'm searching for a good way to handle possible maneuvers in a tournament environment. > > I will post the whole deck later and you can look, if it could work out. > If it is a Gargoyle deck, you could include Brick by Brick at Brick by Brick Type: Combat :com: Requires: / Cost: 1 blood Maneuver. Strike: 2R damage, with an optional maneuver. Only usable before range is determined. This vampire sets the range this round. V:EKN Website Coordinator

> Ankha wrote: > There are three possibilites: > 1/ the opponent doesn't play any maneuver > 2/ the opponent plays at most 1 maneuver (Aid from bats) > 3/ the opponent plays many maneuvers (gun with cel, arhimane with swiftness) > > Globally, if you want to add as few cards to handle this as possible, you musn't enter in a contest of maneuvers you'll lose but rather play long rang solutions, even if you won't be able to play Grapple (anyway, it's quite rare to play against a deck that plays both maneuvers and S:CE!) > Slam is not good I think because it's not necessary in case 1, costs too much in case 2 (compared to a free grid/sewer lid/stunt cycle) and is useless in case 3 (and costs blood). > > Adding 5 Gates/Lids/Stunt cycles should be enough win some fights (you won't be able to win all of them anyway). Each of them has its own pros/cons. > Think about adding some Anarch Troublemaker if you play in an equipment heavy environment. > Totally agreed. I haven't ever seen a deck that would be better off using Slam than Lid. To address your initial concern, Joscha, consider that using Slam to maneuver to close against Bats and then playing Grapple costs just as much blood as using Lid (since the Grapple only prevents you from taking one damage, but you lost that blood playing Slam anyway). Lid "wins" the range contest and lets you press to use your Signpost next round. David Cherryholmes had a formula for figuring out how many long-range strikes to use in an otherwise close-range combat deck, which was to determine how many maneuvers you'd want in the deck if you had room for them, divide that number by two and add that many long-range strikes. It's a good formula, since it prevents you from jamming on long-range strikes but allows you to hit back against a long-range deck about as often as you'd win the maneuver battle.

Hey, that all are very interesting hints indeed. Thanks a lot. Nevertheless here comes the deck, as most things will be clearer then (although you answered my question in a very satisfying way already). 1. How do you intend to oust? Hit minions into torpor and graverob them. Bleed with many minions steadily, dunking a famed minion in addition (maybe rescuing him and dunk him again). Tension in the Ranks for add. pool damage. I think about adding two Anarch Revolts for add. damage. Graverobbing is a good answer to those Cybele or other Villein + Golconda-decks. 2. How do you intend to keep from being ousted? Rushing minions of my predator to stay alive, robbing them to prevent rescue and use them for the offense vs. the prey, when defending minions got rushed. 3. What do you want your ready region to look like (ie, how many guys are you planning on getting out)? Both Beast and Theo would be cool together with 2 or 3 dom-weenies. 4. What do you want your average turn to look like? Beast dunks a minion of the pred., a weenie steals him. The second minion rescues the stolen one. After you ruined the game of your pred. you can go after your prey, as long as your pred. is alive. After that you have to care for your new pred. Path of Salmon, baby. The stolen minions generate pool via hunt plus Blood Doll. 5. What's your metagame like? How do your opponents play? Few combat decks. Mostly bleed decks and some vote & toolboxy decks. 6. What problems have you observed with the deck in play? The Path of Salmon isn't very promising at Tournaments. My concern is the lack of multirush and the possibility of blocking minions, which jump in the way of Beast, leaving me vulnerable to bleed. It seems to be the perfect choice for big cap-decks, getting enormous problems against low-caps. But I didn't test it yet. Deck Name: Smash and Grab Created By: Joscha Düll (after a deck seen from Denis Gerard) Description: Hit into torpor minions and graverob them. Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 7, Max: 28, Avg: 4,5) 1 Royce dom 1 Pander 1 Mustafa Rahman dom 2 Tremere 1 Ohanna dom 2 Malkavian 1 Samson dom 2 Ventrue Antitribu 1 Christine Boscacci dom vic 2 Pander 1 Cameron dom pot 3 Lasombra 3 Theo Bell (maybe 2) cel dom POT pre 7 Brujah 3 Beast (maybe 4) ani cel OBF POT 7 Nosferatu Antitribu Library: (71 cards) Master (13 cards) 1 Wider View 3 Blood Doll 2 Golconda: Inner Peace 1 Pentex Subversion (to contest) 1 Coven, The 2 Fame 1 Tension in the Ranks 1 Jake Washington (Hunter) (to contest) 1 Heidelberg Castle (Maybe Depravity?) Action (8 cards) 8 Graverobbing Action Modifier (8 cards) 4 Cloak the Gathering 4 Conditioning Reaction (3 cards) 3 Deflection Combat (39 cards) 12 Immortal Grapple 4 Glancing Blow 4 Torn Signpost 8 Disarm 1 Blur 3 Taste of Vitae 6 Slam (or Thrown Sewer Lids, that was my question). 1 Flash (plus one Tasha Morgan or sth. to make more use of the Heidelberg Castle?) Please note it is a 71 card-deck. If you look at the Combatsection, it may seem I can't hit hard enough. In fact I don't want to. I just want to hit harder than the opponent to Disarm him. The more blood stays on the minion the better, because I plan to rob him anyway. Beast has +1 strength anyway. With a Glancing Blow even a Theo without more than an Immortal Grapple will do the trick. Baron of Frankfurt

Zip Gun + Target Vitals FTW. If you can get close with it play Grapple to set range to close on the second round. If you can't, shoot for 3. Also protects your dom-weenies. I would also consider Mighty Grapple. It's free, effectively negates 1 maneuver, prevent or set range effect and leaves more blood than Slam on the Graverob target when used as a strike.

Given your overall plan, might Ignazio Giovanni be a better rusher? The combat package could then focus on Fortitude+Disarm, which keeps more blood on your 'Robbed targets. Ignazio would also provide you with the ability to multirush that you said you'd like to add.

> Joscha wrote: > 1 Pentex Subversion (to contest) > I'd rather play a Secure Haven for the contest, and for the usefulness. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Hm, why not testing that? Ignacio could be great indeed. + Baldesar Rosselini. Influencing is an issue, as they are both rather big. Maybe adding a couple of Info Highways and hoping to get one early? What I find appealing is the DOM on Ingnacio. The downside of the Fortitude+Disarm-plan is that you cannot damage allies good enough. There has to be some +damage at least. Of course there is no problem in adding it. @Ankha: Sigh, yes, Secure Haven has to go in too. There goes the idea with Anarch Revolt. There are too many Masters in the deck already. Even more with the idea of adding Monster. Baron of Frankfurt

I'd go with sewer lid to counter animalism and cel+guns. If you have POT, you can press out of a damaging Crows+Bats, round after round combat. Three damage for one card is much better than their 3 damage from 2 cards. Throw in some Target: Vitals to make it five for free. I've not found Earthshock that helpful where I play because even a press can help kill mylan or carlton. Slam is good when it's free(i.e. Jann Berger), but harder to justify when it's not. Thrown gate is better for either casual combat or when combined with Increased Strength and Mighty Grapple. I wouldn't use it alone against animalism or guns, but it's a good card a lot of the time. Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one. -Friedrich Nietzsche brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/

Honestly I'd be tempted to run almost everything the same with a Crypt Change and by tossing in a handful of GtUs (~6 or so). Also, since you're planning on using a swarm of vampires I'd be packing Tribute to the Master and NOT Blood Doll. Lorenzo's Card Text is really quite good if you're in a metagame without many king-hit players. Crypt [12 vampires] Capacity min: 3 max: 9 average: 6.25 4x Lorenzo Detuono 9 Giovanni:5 1x Don Michael Antoni 7 2 votes Giovanni:4 1x Accorri Giovanni 6 Giovanni:5 1x Raphaela Giovanni 6 Giovanni:4 1x Donatello Giovanni 5 Giovanni:4 1x Frank Weisshadel 4 Tremere:4 1x Paulo de Castille 4 Lasombra:4 1x Primo Giovanni 4 Giovanni:4 1x Almodo Giovanni 3 Giovanni:4 Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

What if it's just a POT deck? Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one. -Friedrich Nietzsche brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/

> brandonsantacruz wrote: > What if it's just a POT deck? > The short version--if you are just Potence, and don't want to mess with Fake Outs: -If you have almost all POT, go with some Slams, and hope they don't have more than 1 maneuver at a time. -If you have a mix of POT/pot (say, 50-50), go with Sewer Lids, so when they go long, you can pound them for 3. Slam isn't good if you have pot, where Sewer Lid is still good if you are Koko and someone goes to long with a Magnum or Aid from Bats. Slam is good if you reliably have POT and can counter their maneuver. If you imagine that you'll run into a *lot* of maneuvers, just use Sewer Lid.

> Ignacio could be great indeed. + Baldesar Rosselini. > (btw, I like how vekn.org handles quotes better than BGG) Why Baldy instead of Laz? I like Laz, but I'm willing to be swayed with the Baldy argument...