Ashur Tablet killer

So I discussed this card with a friend. And I think we got some way with it. And note it is designed to weaken Ashur decks. Hidden Past Event - Inconnu Each time a methuselah places a card in his library, he must burn a pool or a blood/life from a minion/retainer. Note: This will also work against Heart of Cheat.

> Baaliprimogen wrote: > So I discussed this card with a friend. And I think we got some way with it. And note it is designed to weaken Ashur decks. > > Hidden Past > Event - Inconnu > Each time a methuselah places a card in his library, he must burn a pool or a blood/life from a minion/retainer. > > Note: This will also work against Heart of Cheat. > An awful card that does nothing but destroy several fun, interesting, strong cards that are balanced-enough that they aren't in need of nerfing. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

> Baaliprimogen wrote: > Hidden Past > Event - Inconnu > Each time a methuselah places a card in his library, he must burn a pool or a blood/life from a minion/retainer. > I get the feeling you haven't thought this through all that well. Does Summon Soul really need to be nerfed into nonplayability?

This isn't really any worse than how totally Scourge of the Enochians kill any strategy relying on weenies/embraces, and I haven't seen anyone crying about how that card is too powerful.

> Klaital wrote: > This isn't really any worse than how totally Scourge of the Enochians kill any strategy relying on weenies/embraces, and I haven't seen anyone crying about how that card is too powerful. > 'Cept me, I think scourge is total BS. If Ashurs are a problem, which I'm not entirely certain about as it seems only the extra-MPA cheese decks can use them without worrying about wasting the MPA's on nothing (I mean to say that's a problem), I'd think more cards that attack the ash heap are in order. Let's say something like a bleed card that does the same bleed as some other card but at superior removes as many cards as the amount of bleed. Would you use that? Trochomancy is somewhat similar but it's also used because it's the only bleed modifier for Harbringer disciplines.

AT isn't that strong in it's self. But the combo with liquadation makes it insane. Remember memories of mortality. That card wasn't that strong in it's self. But in combo with the imbued it was overpowered. And come on, how many times do you see Summon soul in play? You may still play it, it only foster 2 more blood. And heart is stupid. It's way to usefull for a card that does not require anything.

> Klaital wrote: > This isn't really any worse than how totally Scourge of the Enochians kill any strategy relying on weenies/embraces, and I haven't seen anyone crying about how that card is too powerful. > That's because nobody plays it. Mechanically, Scourge isn't nearly as powerful a hoser as this one is, due to its wandering nature and optional usage clause. Additionally, as you point out, Scourge was designed to be a silver bullet to a wide range of deck types, not just a few cards. Silver bullets are dumb generally, but are even dumber when they're built to target specific cards. Better to simply ban the targeted cards if they're actually a problem. > Baaliprimogen wrote: > And come on, how many times do you see Summon soul in play? You may still play it, it only foster 2 more blood. And heart is stupid. It's way to usefull for a card that does not require anything. > The reason I specifically chose Summon Soul (there are other underpowered and balanced cards that this even will also nerf for no good reason) is exactly because it's not played often. The point of playtesting is to discover which cards get unnecessarily nerfed by new cards; making old, underplayed cards even worse is certainly not the goal of new cards - just the opposite, actually. New cards which unnecessarily nerf older cards, which themselves are already not great, aren't well-designed.

Summon Soul already was wallpaper since the release, just like most quietus cards and eyes of death. There is no need to discuss cornercase wallpapers. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

is Ashur Tablets really that amazing? I mean I know they're decent, but is it worth silver-bulleting to the point that it's a -9 blood net loss? Heart of Cheating is fine, it has a high risk of contesting. ruins some vampire abilities like Henry Taylor and Aisata Swanou, and cards like Waste Management and Unity. very few people might play Summon Soul, but Sudario Refraction really gets hurt too. I guess this is an easy way to deflect all criticism when designing your own cards. If a card is used a lot, it's obviously strong and deserves random nerfing! If a card is rarely used, it's wallpaper and there's no need to discuss it! brilliant! how about we balance it out a little. let's say "requires 5 gehenna cards controlled by other methuselahs" there we go.

> Lech wrote: > Summon Soul already was wallpaper since the release, just like most quietus cards and eyes of death. > Demonstrably false: thelasombra.com/decks/twd.htm#2k9consumethedead There might be more. I stopped looking after the first one. > Lech wrote: > There is no need to discuss cornercase wallpapers. > There is if you're actually doing playtesting. Again: > Kushiel wrote: > The reason I specifically chose Summon Soul (there are other underpowered and balanced cards that this even will also nerf for no good reason) is exactly because it's not played often. The point of playtesting is to discover which cards get unnecessarily nerfed by new cards; making old, underplayed cards even worse is certainly not the goal of new cards - just the opposite, actually. New cards which unnecessarily nerf older cards, which themselves are already not great, aren't well-designed. >

Okay. If people are afraid of other cards, then we could add. "if you don't controll the edge, burn pool/blood.

> Baaliprimogen wrote: > Okay. If people are afraid of other cards, then we could add. "if you don't controll the edge, burn pool/blood. > Good modification. With that, I like it. Ashur Tablets is much to strong - was there any playtesting at all of that card? Did the playtesters know about Liquidation? Did we need more cards to abuse with Anthelios? All good ash heap manipulation should be necromancy. All good library manipulation should be VERY hard to pull off. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Ashur wrote: > > > Baaliprimogen wrote: > > Okay. If people are afraid of other cards, then we could add. "if you don't controll the edge, burn pool/blood. > > > Good modification. With that, I like it. > > Ashur Tablets is much to strong - was there any playtesting at all of that card? Did the playtesters know about Liquidation? Did we need more cards to abuse with Anthelios? > > All good ash heap manipulation should be necromancy. All good library manipulation should be VERY hard to pull off. > Especially since necromancy doesn't have that good ash heap manipulation. I kind of like the idea of Ashurs though, it just sucks that I can't play them in any deck because I don't want to play TWDA +MPA decks.

> Ashur wrote: > > > Baaliprimogen wrote: > > Okay. If people are afraid of other cards, then we could add. "if you don't controll the edge, burn pool/blood. > > > Good modification. With that, I like it. > > Ashur Tablets is much to strong - was there any playtesting at all of that card? Did the playtesters know about Liquidation? Did we need more cards to abuse with Anthelios? > > All good ash heap manipulation should be necromancy. All good library manipulation should be VERY hard to pull off. > Actually we don't need But ashur could be balanced just making it to retrieve minion cards (and not also master cards) Minimal text change for an overall balance reword Emiliano vekn.net administrators staff

> nc-italy wrote: > But ashur could be balanced just making it to retrieve minion cards (and not also master cards) > Minimal text change for an overall balance reword > A rather good idea actually. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> nc-italy wrote: > But ashur could be balanced just making it to retrieve minion cards (and not also master cards) > Minimal text change for an overall balance reword > I like that

> Demnogonis wrote: > Especially since necromancy doesn't have that good ash heap manipulation. > Interesting observartion. If you don´t count that Diary-thing. > Demnogonis wrote: > I kind of like the idea of Ashurs though, it just sucks that I can't play them in any deck because I don't want to play TWDA +MPA decks. > I´m with you. The game should promote many different decks being viable for tournament play - now it kind of slides towards a handful of archetypes, most containing multiple MPA-stuff. Sad. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Demnogonis wrote: > I kind of like the idea of Ashurs though, it just sucks that I can't play them in any deck because I don't want to play TWDA +MPA decks. > I'm a bit surprised. Ashur works great in decks without multiple MPA. I play 6 of them in a thin Gangrel deck (with little master), it works like a charm. It is as wrong as saying you are obliged to play presence in a vote deck because Voter Captivation is great. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > I'm a bit surprised. Ashur works great in decks without multiple MPA. I play 6 of them in a thin Gangrel deck (with little master), it works like a charm. > It is as wrong as saying you are obliged to play presence in a vote deck because Voter Captivation is great. > True, this works fine, until you find yourself against a 12 Ashur multiple MPA deck who will beat you to the Ashur race. Ashur is a fine card but the cheesy bloat decks stole it from the decks that really needed it and could make an interesting use of it. Ashur on its own is fine. Liquidation on its own is fine. The combo of both is too much bloat. I think the real killer is the ability to use Ashur to retrieve the Liquidation you just played. There are several ways to correct it without hammering the cards: - Ashur only retrieves Minion cards - Liquidation is removed from the game once played

> nc-italy wrote: > But ashur could be balanced just making it to retrieve minion cards (and not also master cards) > Minimal text change for an overall balance reword > Hm, not bad. And it would still be very useful. I like the idea of removing the Liquidation from the game too. Baron of Frankfurt

I second that. Like both suggestions.

> Non-existant user wrote: > True, this works fine, until you find yourself against a 12 Ashur multiple MPA deck who will beat you to the Ashur race. > So what? I can be beaten also by a deck playing lots of Wash. The deck you describe may be an ally that will wait to play his Ashurs once you've played yours (it already happen in some games I played). And if you have already 2 Ashurs in play, you may beat the multiple MPA deck. Anyway, even if you're theorically beaten, that's the game. Just play smartly. I managed more than once to use my Ashur even against a Nana Burruku deck playing Ashur... Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Ashur Tablet Killer While you control a copy of Ashur Tablets, your minions have +1 strength. Each turn you have a mandatory action to have one of your minions enter combat with your prey. This action is at +1 stealth.