Can Dual Form work?

Greets! Without modifying the backbone of the deck (meaning I only play gangrel, !gangrel and ahrimane, so please dont tell me to recreate the whole crypt to !toreador or something ), how do you think I can improve ousting power? I considered using Delaying Tactics/Direct Intervention against cheeky stuff like Banishment, but eventually I chose acting instead of reacting. Any idea occurring is welcomed, especially constructive critics. Deck Name: Mea Culpa Author: Máté Vaka Description: A deck relying on Dual Form? Yes! As you can imagine playing this deck requires a large amount of knowledge of the game, cards and decks otherwise it can turn into a burning parade. I managed to sit in a Finals with this and get a Barrenness deck as my predator... gg. Crypt (12 cards; Capacity min=2 max=9 avg=6.25) =============================================== 3x Aksinya Daclau 9 cel tha ANI FOR PRE PRO !Gangrel:4 1x Bill Butler 3 pot pro !Gangrel:4 1x Denette Stensen 2 obf !Gangrel:4 1x Jesús Alcalá 2 cel !Gangrel:3 1x Leo Washington 2 cel pro !Gangrel:4 1x Lula Burch 3 for pro !Gangrel:4 4x Una 9 dem ANI FOR PRE PRO !Gangrel:3 Library (90 cards) ================== Master (18) 1x Blood Doll 1x Campground Hunting Ground 1x City Gangrel Connections 1x Coven, The 3x Dreams of the Sphinx 1x Festivo dello Estinto 1x Giant's Blood 1x Heidelberg Castle, Germany 1x Information Highway 1x Twisted Forest 4x Vessel 2x Villein Action (10) 1x Abactor 5x Dual Form 2x Heart of the City 2x Loki's Gift Political Action (18) 5x Cardinal Benediction 3x Consanguineous Boon 1x Conservative Agitation 7x Kine Resources Contested 1x Neonate Breach 1x Political Stranglehold Action Modifier (30) 5x Beast Meld 7x Bewitching Oration 3x Earth Control 8x Freak Drive 7x Voter Captivation Combat (12) 4x Earth Meld 8x Form of Mist Combo (2) 2x Rapid Change NC of Hungary ///

how does it rely on it? i only see five. UDHR18/19/27

Nice to see that you can get it to work! To go for a vote strategy with !gangrel seems a bit cumbersome, though, Maybe combine with Adana de Sforza instead of Una for more permanent votes? Fakir al Sidi to stop banishments easier? Also, have you considered using House of Sorrow to decks like this? It combines great with your locations, Dreams and especially with The Coven to use it for 4 blood and denying your predator the use.

> Borrelstein wrote: > Also, have you considered using House of Sorrow to decks like this? > It combines great with your locations, Dreams and especially with The Coven to use it for 4 blood and denying your predator the use. > I wish it did, but it doesn't deny your Predator from using The Coven. > Non-existant user wrote: > If you do so, neither that card nor this location untap as normal on your next untap phase. > In fact, I think the card remembers the next time it is under your control. Floppy?

[LSJ 20090915] However, in a two-player game, untapping The Coven with House of Sorrows will cause it not to untap during your next untap phase. So, if your predator taps it, you don't get to untap it. You're basically borrowing the usage of The Coven from your next turn if you untap it with House of Sorrows in a 2-player game.

> mirddes wrote: > how does it rely on it? i only see five. > It appears to rely on Dual Form in the sense that the basic plan for the deck is to get out Una and/or Aksinya, have them DF to create another large PRE/PRO sabbat vampire, and have the DFs become cardinals via Cardinal Benediction to achieve vote lock. I do agree that with only five copies of each of those key cards, a 90-card library is much too large.

> To go for a vote strategy with !gangrel seems a bit cumbersome, though, Maybe combine with Adana de Sforza instead of Una for more permanent votes? Fakir al Sidi to stop banishments easier? > > Also, have you considered using House of Sorrow to decks like this? > Adana cannot multiact with Freak Drive nor play Beast Meld or any sabbat related cards, she might be a good pick in another concept though. Fakir has no votes, and just like before, he cannot enjoy the benefits of sabbat cards. Banishment is a tricky one, I can imagine a Dual Form deck based of Fakir but yet again, that's another concept. House of Sorrow would be a bit redundant, I could only use it with 6 cards and none of those are essential (except the early dreams and heidelberg maybe). > I do agree that with only five copies of each of those key cards, a 90-card library is much too large. > The deck cycles insanely fast, especially after the first Dual is drawn. NC of Hungary ///

> Kushiel wrote: > It appears to rely on Dual Form in the sense that the basic plan for the deck is to get out Una and/or Aksinya, have them DF to create another large PRE/PRO sabbat vampire, and have the DFs become cardinals via Cardinal Benediction to achieve vote lock. > The reliance on the Dual Form and the Cardinal Benedictions as fairly key cards to make things work does give me cause for concern. In the later stages of a tournament, and particularly in a final, I'd expect people to target the Dual Forms and Cardinal Benedictions with card cancellation (DI etc.), counter-vote, vote cancellation etc. Possibly hit the Bewitching Oration during a Cardinal Benediction with a DI, or Scalpel Tongue, so that both cards are wasted. Una (Archbishop) + vote card + Bewitching Oration is 7 votes. Loki's Gift can get you more, as could the Edge, as could City Gangrel Connections (one copy, so in half your games it's in the bottom 45 cards of the deck), but 7 looks about right. In a world where you might have Arika as your predator and, say, AAA Toreador as your grand-prey, 7 votes isn't that much. I'd be concerned about being vulnerable to early attempts to thwart me, especially given that - as has been pointed out - with onlt 5 Dual Form and 5 Cardinal Benediction, you may not be drawing them both in the first few turns, so others do have time to kick start their defences a bit.

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > In a world where you might have Arika as your predator and, say, AAA Toreador as your grand-prey, 7 votes isn't that much. > You probably forgot that Camarilla vampires cannot cast votes on Cardinal Benediction vote... Marko, Prince of Helsinki

> Malachy wrote: > The deck cycles insanely fast, especially after the first Dual is drawn. > I don't own the Dual Forms to test it in play, but it looks like the reason that it cycles so quickly is because you play a lot of vote push and Freak Drive during your actions. The same general goal can be achieved by creating more Dual Form cardinals, and doing so gives you the added benefits of simplifying your cardflow-per-action and giving you more political juice during other players' turns. (It would also make you slightly more resilient against combat decks, but DF's card text makes that problematic.) This is what I'd try, if you're looking to keep the core idea but make some significant changes: Deck Name : Mea Culpa (With Feeling) Author : John Eno Description : Vaka's deck, but tweaked to reduce library size and include more permanents, as well as more of the core tech. Crypt [12 vampires] Capacity min: 2 max: 9 average: 6.83333 4x Aksinya Daclau (9) Gangrel antitribu (group 4) 4x Una (9) archbishop Gangrel antitribu (group 3) 1x Bill Butler (3) Gangrel antitribu (group 4) 1x Lula Burch (3) Gangrel antitribu (group 4) 1x Jesus Alcala (2) Gangrel antitribu (group 3) 1x Leo Washington (2) Gangrel antitribu (group 4) Library [76 cards] Action [10] 2x Abactor 6x Dual Form 2x Heart of the City Action Modifier [21] 2x Approximation of Loyalty 2x Beast Meld 2x Bewitching Oration 4x Earth Control 4x Freak Drive 2x Perfect Paragon 5x Voter Captivation Combat [8] 4x Earth Meld 4x Form of Mist Master [18] 1x Black Forest Base 1x Coven, The 1x Creepshow Casino 1x Dia de los Muertos 2x Dreams of the Sphinx 1x Festivo dello Estinto 1x Giant's Blood 1x Hungry Coyote, The 1x Information Highway 1x Jake Washington (Hunter) 1x Powerbase: Madrid 1x Purchase Pact 1x Twisted Forest 4x Villein Political Action [18] 6x Cardinal Benediction 3x Consanguineous Boon 7x Kine Resources Contested 1x Neonate Breach 1x Political Stranglehold Retainer [1] 1x Malajit Chandramouli Crafted with : Anarch Revolt Deck Builder. [Wed Jul 22 16:56:37 2015] More permanents: stealth - Creepshow, Malajit vote push - more DF cardinals, Madrid blood- and poolgain - Hungry Coyote (and note its synergy with Abactor), Black Forest Base combat defense - Purchase Pact More flexible action mods - Approximation is good for stopping block pre-emptively and also cancels Delaying Tactics; Perfect Paragon is stealth or vote-push EDIT: It occurred to me that Gurchon Hall would be great in this deck, probably better than Jake.

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > The reliance on the Dual Form and the Cardinal Benedictions as fairly key cards to make things work does give me cause for concern. In the later stages of a tournament, and particularly in a final, I'd expect people to target the Dual Forms and Cardinal Benedictions with card cancellation (DI etc.), counter-vote, vote cancellation etc. Possibly hit the Bewitching Oration during a Cardinal Benediction with a DI, or Scalpel Tongue, so that both cards are wasted. > > Una (Archbishop) + vote card + Bewitching Oration is 7 votes. Loki's Gift can get you more, as could the Edge, as could City Gangrel Connections (one copy, so in half your games it's in the bottom 45 cards of the deck), but 7 looks about right. In a world where you might have Arika as your predator and, say, AAA Toreador as your grand-prey, 7 votes isn't that much. I'd be concerned about being vulnerable to early attempts to thwart me, especially given that - as has been pointed out - with onlt 5 Dual Form and 5 Cardinal Benediction, you may not be drawing them both in the first few turns, so others do have time to kick start their defences a bit. > Back in the day when I created the deck, my concerns were similar to yours. Then I quickly realized that I don't have to worry about votes, because Cardinal Benediction rules out cammies - as a-e noted -, and it's fairly safe to assume that 90% of the vote decks are camarilla based (like the ones you mentioned). DI-ing the Bewithcing? It is kind of an odd move, isn't it? Most of the time I get Delaying Tactics, but the deck has enough pool gain, so I can bloat around, I don't have to rush either of these cards to have an impact. Though once in a tournament my first Dual Form was DI-ed, then it was hard not to get ousted so it made things harder. The next round I sat with the same 2 players and they were mocking me: Now let's see what happens if we don't DI your first Dual Form! 1 4 for me happened. Story time over, my point is that voting is not the primary concern most of the time. Generally my early game consists of persuading the table that I'm not a TurboUna deck and it is not everyone's best interest to cross-table-Pentex me without having a chance to act. Kushiel! I really like some of the new cards you included: PB: Madrid, Black Forst Base, Jake Washington. I really don't like Malajit and Purchase Pact and the rest would be ok, BUT I live in Hungary and here, with this combat section and stealth, you are pretty much done. Lot of blocker decks here, even more combat decks. I think I will lose Heidelberg and use one of your suggested cards. NC of Hungary ///

> a-e wrote: > > > jamesatzephyr wrote: > > In a world where you might have Arika as your predator and, say, AAA Toreador as your grand-prey, 7 votes isn't that much. > > > You probably forgot that Camarilla vampires cannot cast votes on Cardinal Benediction vote... > I didn't, no. If much of your vote lock requires you to get a Dual Form out and put a Cardinal Benediction on it, then stopping either of those things from happening causes problems - hence, cancel the Dual Form(*) with DI (or block it, though the deck has stealth and action continue), and the deck is back to having 7 votes as an achievable goal, in the early to mid game. Similarly, if you block (if you can) the CB, Delaying Tactics it, Vox Domini it, DI it, you can significantly stall the deck getting standing votes out. Meddle with the Bewitching Oration on a Cardinal Benediction action - Scalpel Tongue sees some play, for example - and waste both cards. There are 13 non-Benediction votes in the deck, which - if you can't pass them - are either jamming your hand or wasting actions, and those don't have anti-Camarilla clauses. So, either Dual Form or Cardinal Benediction represents an "interesting" bottle-neck to try to stall the deck's succeess. You could, of course, throw a Bewitching Oration or two down on a KRC or Con Boon if you wanted - but that's then a BO that you don't have to throw down on the Cardinal Benediction, which you may well need. Even with the Camarilla exclusion, if you only have Una (2 votes) and the political action card, that's within reach of Ventrue HQ, or a variety of other defences. Obviously, some games you'll pull it off and get a couple of titles out relatively quickly - but other games, those (relatively few) Dual Forms or Benedictions will come lower down the deck, by which time someone on the table has got a big-ish titled vampire out, or the Legacy of Pander deck has got 4 vampires out and a Crusade and an LoP while people with big vampires are only just getting their first vampire out etc. (*) By "DI" I mean any similar cancellation too, of course, and I'm not saying that all decks always have DIs all the time for everything. But a deck like this is much more vulnerable. A common or garden vote deck probably has a diversity of titles in the crypt, a variety of vote push, and if you block/cancel/delay/whatever the Brujah Justicar I'm calling, it's probably not that crucial. Such decks play Awe (as well as BO) to push crunch votes well out of the way of my prey's Gratiano and my grand-predator's Stanislava. They might have Awe and BO and a Perfect Paragon, and while I wouldn't necessarily want to play 2 or 3 on one action, I can if necessary. They can have some of the better vote support masters, like Ventrue HQ - usually a lot more tasty than City Gangrel Connections. Similarly, if you compare with a variety of bleed heavy decks, they have many more interchageable parts and greater resilience, so there's less for a skilled opponent to look at and say "Okay, if I interfere with this, I really slow down your deck a heck of a lot" - take out a modifier, I've got more, and the success of my next action isn't really influenced much by the success of this action, in the way that a later KRC is helped by an earlier successful Cardinal Benediction. Similarly, you might survive this combat, but I can probably smack you around in the face on the next one easily enough, and I've probably cycled a few cards too.

Also, don't forget my favorite combat card - Banishment. I would love that Dual Form would be awesome. But apart from copies of Stanislava or Jamal (because of Yoruba Shrine) I cannot see any real use for the card. Maybe I'm limited.

> Malachy wrote: > I really like some of the new cards you included: PB: Madrid, Black Forst Base, Jake Washington. I really don't like Malajit and Purchase Pact and the rest would be ok, BUT I live in Hungary and here, with this combat section and stealth, you are pretty much done. Lot of blocker decks here, even more combat decks. I think I will lose Heidelberg and use one of your suggested cards. > …? Your library is roughly 11% stealth, or 13% if you use the Loki's Gift for their +stealth effect, and 16% S:CE. (Technically, it's a bit less than that, since Rapid Change is only going to be played for one or the other of those. Close enough figures for consideration, though.) Mine is 11% stealth, not counting the two Approximations which can occasionally be played as pseudo-stealth, and 11% S:CE. That doesn't seem like a huge difference to me, especially given that my deck also has more permanent stealth and the Purchase Pact, which can sometimes save you quite a few S:CE cards. I did try to keep the card ratios about the same while decreasing the overall size of your library, since I assume that you know your metagame better than I do. Anyway, glad some of the suggestions seem good to you. If nothing else, dropping City Gangrel Connections for PB:Madrid and Heidelburg for Gurchon Hall (or Jake, if you prefer him to block a rusher) would probably help your deck.