What happens when Kestrelle Hayes or any other vampire that has stealth bonus against specific target makes D action against multiple players (e.g. border skirmish) where some of the targets meet the criteria for stealth bonus and others don't?
a) The action has individual stealth score against each target.
b) The criteria for stealth special is met, and bonus is gained against all targets.
c) No bonus is gained.
d) something weird (please specify)
I would argue for option b), but I'm not quite certain.
Kestrelle Hayes
[dom]
[for]
[obt]
[AUS]
[Ventrue antitribu] Ventrue antitribu
Capacity: 6
Group: 5
Sabbat. Black Hand: Kestrelle gets +1 stealth on actions directed at a Methuselah who doesn't control a ready Sabbat vampire.
> Whisker wrote:
> What happens when Kestrelle Hayes or any other vampire that has stealth bonus against specific target makes D action against multiple players (e.g. border skirmish) where some of the targets meet the criteria for stealth bonus and others don't?
>
> a) The action has individual stealth score against each target.
> b) The criteria for stealth special is met, and bonus is gained against all targets.
> c) No bonus is gained.
> d) something weird (please specify)
>
I'd say she doesn't get the bonus, since all the targets don't meet the criteria.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
For the example Border Skirmish:
+1 stealth action. Requires a ready anarch.
Each other Methuselah discards one card at random from his or her hand, and this anarch untaps at the end of the turn.
I think it does fulfill the criteria depending on the target. It is directed at each methuselah, and as stealth is related to blocking and each methuselah gets an individual chance to try to block, it makes sense that people without a sabbat vampire have more trouble in blocking the action, hence in this case I would say it is option a). JUDGE!
> Borrelstein wrote:
> I think it does fulfill the criteria depending on the target. It is directed at each methuselah, and as stealth is related to blocking and each methuselah gets an individual chance to try to block, it makes sense that people without a sabbat vampire have more trouble in blocking the action, hence in this case I would say it is option a). JUDGE!
>
No, stealth is just one value that goes up or down, you don't track stealth differently for each Methuselah on the table.
The only real choices here are whether:
- you need every target Methuselah to not have a Sabbat vampire for the special ability to apply
- any single target Methuselah not having a Sabbat vampire would activate the ability.
Based on her wording, I'd go for the latter - a multi-target action by Andy that targets Brenda (controls Gratiano, Sabbat) and Charlie (controls Anneke, Camarilla) is directed at "a Methuselah who doesn't control a ready Sabbat vampire", because Charlie is one of those.
You wrote: "No, stealth is just one value that goes up or down, you don't track stealth differently for each Methuselah on the table."
Why not? Is there a ruling or something else your assertion is based on? It's a D action targeting multiple Methuselahs. If the targeted Methuselah does not control a ready sabbat vampire, the criteria to gain stealth against that Methuselah is met. This seems logical. But I wonder if there is a ruling that counteracts this logic.
I am a newbie, here, but my understanding on this is that there is but ONE action directed at several methuselahs, rather than each having the occasion of blocking different instances of the very same action. One very much same action can not be at 0 stealth and at 1 stealth at the same time, it just doesn't make any sense. Either the action is at 0 stealth for everybody, either it is at 1. This is a card game, not quantum physics.
RTR 080808
>
> Each of the actual targets is considered a target, which means that effects like
> Hide's "the action fails" or Talley's "+1 intercept" can be used if any one (or
> more) of the targets would be enough to enable the effect.
>
This means Kestrelle gets +1 stealth on D actions against multiple Methuselahs if one of the targets controls no ready Sabbat vampire.
(If two Methuselahs control no ready Sabbat vampire, Kestrelle would only get +1 stealth from her cardtext, not +2 stealth).
> TwoRazorReign wrote:
> You wrote: "No, stealth is just one value that goes up or down, you don't track stealth differently for each Methuselah on the table."
>
> Why not? Is there a ruling or something else your assertion is based on? It's a D action targeting multiple Methuselahs. If the targeted Methuselah does not control a ready sabbat vampire, the criteria to gain stealth against that Methuselah is met. This seems logical. But I wonder if there is a ruling that counteracts this logic.
>
There is a logical (and 7-year-old) ruling that has been quoted above that counteracts your logic.
This may seem like nit picking, but the card text states "a Methuselah." It should state "any Methuselah."
Sabbat. Black Hand: Kestrelle gets +1 stealth on actions directed at a Methuselah who doesn't control a ready Sabbat vampire.
> TwoRazorReign wrote:
> You wrote: "No, stealth is just one value that goes up or down, you don't track stealth differently for each Methuselah on the table."
>
> Why not?
>
Because that's how stealth is defined in the rules. The acting minion has a stealth. He doesn't have a stealth against a particular Methuselah.
> TwoRazorReign wrote:
> This may seem like nit picking, but the card text states "a Methuselah." It should state "any Methuselah."
>
That would be potentially acceptable wording, but why is that wording supposedly necessary? It targets "a Methuselah" without a Sabbat vampire (and it also targets some other Methuselahs). Works fine with "a".
Targeting a Methuselah that meets certain requirements doesn't, for example, imply that it must target only Methuselahs who meet those requirements, any more than Kalila only gets +stealth if she does an action that targets a location and something else (e.g. Rewilding). Similarly, Talley 's intercept works if one of your other minions is targetted, even if other minions are also affected e.g. superior Wave of Insanity tapping an ally with the same controller as Talley, but also another Methuselah's Renegade Garou.
You are not wrong, but let’s focus on Kestrelle’s card text. The confusion outlined in the original post stems from Kestrelle’s card text stating that stealth is gained when performing a D action “directed at a Methuselah.” Had Kestrelle’s card text said “directed at any Methuseah,” it would help to clarify that the card text applies even if multiple Methuselahs are targeted, and stealth is gained when “any” Methuselah targeted doesn’t control a Sabbat vampire.
> TwoRazorReign wrote:
> You are not wrong,
>
Then you're fabricating a nit that doesn't exist. Please don't do that.
> TwoRazorReign wrote:
> Had Kestrelle’s card text said “directed at any Methuseah,” it would help to clarify that the card text applies even if multiple Methuselahs are targeted, and stealth is gained when “any” Methuselah targeted doesn’t control a Sabbat vampire.
>
Given that Kestrelle was issued close to two years prior to multi-target actions existing, it would be rather remarkable if she'd been able to foresee that rule change. (It rumbled along in the summer of 2008, was brought in during Keepers of Tradition in late 2008, and Kestrelle was issued at the start of 2007.)
Your second paragraph is making my point. I simply think the card text could be clearer than it is in its current form. I apologize if my opinion annoys you.
> Whisker wrote:
> Sabbat. Black Hand: Kestrelle gets +1 stealth on actions directed at a Methuselah who doesn't control a ready Sabbat vampire.
>
Personally I think the distinction between "a" and "any" is not even of any importance here. "Any" is just a slightly more specific "a" that grants the benefit of the doubt. Is there a way to win game X? Response: yes. Is there any way to win game X? Yes, a single method on how to win game X.
But in this context wheter you use a or any, as soon as a single methuselah (a methuselah/any methuselah) does not controo a sabbat Kestrelle gets stealth.
In any case the meaning of a vs any is the same in regards to this card text. Changing it wouldn't have made anything clearer/more unclear than it already was.
I mean, I understand where you are coming from. It's a very minor point I am making. But I think a minor wording glitch like this makes a much bigger difference to someone new to the game than someone who has been playing the game for a while. If "a" was changed to "any," a literal reading of the card text could be applied in situations where one action targets multiple Methuselahs. "Do any of the targeted Methuselas not control a Sabbat vampire? Oh, yes, one does not. + 1 stealth." At least that's how it would work in my brain. But that's just me.