Marthe Dizier
Clan: Toreador antitribu (group 3)
Capacity: 10
Disciplines: AUS CEL OBF PRE pro
Sabbat. Black Hand: When a combat involving Marthe ends, she can burn a blood to move a card she played during that combat from your ash heap to your hand. +1 bleed.
Psyche!
Type: Combat
Requires: Celerity
[cel] Press.
[CEL] Only usable at the end of a round when both combatants are still ready and combat is about to end. After this round, begin another combat with the opposing minion.
----
Marthe vs minion. Marthe strikes, opponent Majesties, Marthe Psyches (now inside combat instead of after)
Does combat #1 end actually before combat #2 begins? It used to, when Psyche! was played after combat to initiate a new fight. It's a little less clear now that Psyche! is played inside combat and might interrupt its ending.
I'm guessing that the 2nd combat is now considered a replacement effect for the 1st combat - meaning the 1st combat doesn't really reach an "end of combat" state....only an "end of round" state, in which a new combat spawns. That presupposed end of round, end of combat and end of action are 3 distinctly separate timing events.
On one hand, starting a new combat without ending the first one seems a little wonky. But it's not like this would be the only in-combat effect that skips steps/parts of combat (e.g., S:CE skipping additionals and presses).
> TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote:
> Does combat #1 end actually before combat #2 begins? It used to, when Psyche! was played after combat to initiate a new fight. It's a little less clear now that Psyche! is played inside combat and might interrupt its ending.
>
It's still the case. The combat is about to end. Psyche! queues a new combat. You still have the time to play the "end of round" / "end of combat" cards before the new combat starts.
> TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote:
> I'm guessing that the 2nd combat is now considered a replacement effect for the 1st combat
>
No.
> TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote:
> - meaning the 1st combat doesn't really reach an "end of combat" state....only an "end of round" state, in which a new combat spawns. That presupposed end of round, end of combat and end of action are 3 distinctly separate timing events.
>
End of combat matches end of round. That's why you could play Taste of Vitae when the either combattant plays strike: combat ends.
End of action is a separate thing though since there are plenty of cards to continue the action after the combat.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Thanks for the response and for the sake of consistency I had hoped this was the case. It's certainly the easiest interpretation, since it represents the least change.
But for the sake of completeness of discussion, I'm intrigued that you've lumped end-of-round and end-of-combat into the same timing window.
The Complete Rules Reference does not. It very clearly calls them out as separate entities (VI.E and VI.F) - which normally indicates completely separate timing windows.
Perhaps either revisiting this discussion in light of that observation, or editing the Rules Reference is in order.
> TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote:
> But for the sake of completeness of discussion, I'm intrigued that you've lumped end-of-round and end-of-combat into the same timing window.
>
They're not the same window, principally because you can have the round ending without combat ending (due to a press, for example). But if combat ends, the round ends too, so you get to play both sets of effects. And if combat hasn't ended, you'd still be in the first combat.
I think his point was that the current text on Psyche! doesn't really jibe with the Complete Rules Reference. The text should state "after this round, combat ends, but begin a new combat with the opposing minion." Is there a reason why this wouldn't work?
> TwoRazorReign wrote:
> I think his point was that the current text on Psyche! doesn't really jibe with the Complete Rules Reference. The text should state "after this round, combat ends, but begin a new combat with the opposing minion." Is there a reason why this wouldn't work?
>
That would probably be fine. But since we only ever have one combat going on at once - there's no mechanism in the game for having two going on at once - a new combat implicitly ends the first one.
All that is well and good and good functionally. I am perfectly happy with the logical conclusion that one combat must end before another must start.
I'm also glad that Pysche! is now played as a combat card inside combat, instead of after it. Psyche! either needed to be changed that way or altered into an action modifier/reaction card and this version feels (mostly) cleaner.
But this does kinda point at Psyche! as actually resolving outside the timing window in which it is played, at least as currently written. At first blush, I'm hard pressed to find another card performing in that fashion while lacking explicit text or rules describing that deferral.
As an aside, I kinda thought the de facto ruling was that a round had to be completed before combat could be completed (much like a new combat couldn't start without the first ending, right?). So S:CE advances combat to the end-of-round step (not the end-of-combat step); allowing Psyche!, Tracking and Taste to be played in their proper window. Functionally isn't this the same as others have described, without resorting to blurring the timing between end-of-round and end-of-combat?
I suppose that what I described above might well be a distinction without a difference, it just felt easier to describe to new players when everything is kept in it's proper timing step.
> TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote:
> But this does kinda point at Psyche! as actually resolving outside the timing window in which it is played, at least as currently written. At first blush, I'm hard pressed to find another card performing in that fashion while lacking explicit text or rules describing that deferral.
>
But Psyche! does have explicit text indicating that its effect happens a little while later.
"At the end of a round" is still in the round (like "at the end of an action" is still in the action, for relevant action modifiers). It then tells you that "After this round", the thing happens.
That's similar to, for example:
- Day Operation . Played when the action is announced, with some effect now and a delayed effect: "The acting vampire goes to torpor after resolving the action."
- Shroudsight , which also is played in one step (action announced) and has an effect that kicks in much later ("After the action is resolved")
- Inner Essence which is played in one step, but whose effect might be used much later
> TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote:
> So S:CE advances combat to the end-of-round step (not the end-of-combat step); allowing Psyche!, Tracking and Taste to be played in their proper window. Functionally isn't this the same as others have described, without resorting to blurring the timing between end-of-round and end-of-combat?
>
No-one's blurring the timing. If combat ends, the round ends too. So you pass through both, just as you would if the round (and combat) ended any other way e.g. a round of combat with no press to continue, or if someone resolves a "combat ends" strike. Those both happen all the time, with absolutely no blurring, smudging, fading, loss of clarity, dimming, indistinctness, vagueness, or fogginess.
In some games, you have a list of timing steps, with specific things like "end of turn" or "end of round" or similar in them. In those games, you will sometimes find that things that trigger on "end of turn" only trigger if you pass through that specific phase. If you find some way of prematurely ending your turn, you can avoid things triggering off that phase. (This happened in some iterations of the Magic rules, for example.)
V:TES isn't one of those games - end of round effects can be played however the round ends, as can end of combat effects. (Unless, of course, they're prohibited for some other reason.)
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
> But Psyche! does have explicit text indicating that its effect happens a little while later.
>
> "At the end of a round" is still in the round (like "at the end of an action" is still in the action, for relevant action modifiers). It then tells you that "After this round", the thing happens.
>
Fair enough, I misspoke. There is an explicit deferral - it's just not entirely accurate. It states "at the end of the round" and what we've talked about in this thread is really "when (after) combat ends (after this round)." At least I think we've agreed that is a different window (per your first post in this thread where you agree end of round and end of combat are different).
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
> In some games, you have a list of timing steps, with specific things like "end of turn" or "end of round" or similar in them. In those games, you will sometimes find that things that trigger on "end of turn" only trigger if you pass through that specific phase. If you find some way of prematurely ending your turn, you can avoid things triggering off that phase. (This happened in some iterations of the Magic rules, for example.)
>
> V:TES isn't one of those games - end of round effects can be played however the round ends, as can end of combat effects. (Unless, of course, they're prohibited for some other reason.)
>
James, I'm not trying to be argumentative for the sake of conflict here, but I think clarifying how things work is important in a game this convoluted. And I beg to differ on your point above. VTES is exactly like that, there are plenty of precedents for thing getting skipped in this game. Consider:
Ousting under Last Stand with a Temptation of Power that should be paid for in your discard phase. You don't pay beacause the discard pahse is skipped.)
Skipping a turn under First Tradition can avoid a whole lot of in-turn requirements/effects.
Pending damage from Drawing out the Beast damage is skipped if a minion plays an S:CE because the press step is bypassed.
I'm just trying to be completely clear that we're not operating in that domain here - and if needed to challenge any rulings that create opportunities to play End of Round effects and End of Combat effects in different order/combination (than in a normally progressing combat) just because an S:CE was played.
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
>
> > TwoRazorReign wrote:
> > I think his point was that the current text on Psyche! doesn't really jibe with the Complete Rules Reference. The text should state "after this round, combat ends, but begin a new combat with the opposing minion." Is there a reason why this wouldn't work?
> >
> That would probably be fine. But since we only ever have one combat going on at once - there's no mechanism in the game for having two going on at once - a new combat implicitly ends the first one.
>
I don't think we should assume that every player would know the esoteric mechanisms you outline in the quote above. The bottom line is the card text on Psyche! is confusing. It should be changed for clarity.
Psyche!
Type: Combat
Requires: Celerity
[cel] Press.
[CEL] Only usable at the end of a round when both combatants are still ready and combat is about to end. After this round, begin another combat with the opposing minion.
> TwoRazorReign wrote:
>
> > jamesatzephyr wrote:
> >
> > > TwoRazorReign wrote:
> > > I think his point was that the current text on Psyche! doesn't really jibe with the Complete Rules Reference. The text should state "after this round, combat ends, but begin a new combat with the opposing minion." Is there a reason why this wouldn't work?
> > >
> > >
> > That would probably be fine. But since we only ever have one combat going on at once - there's no mechanism in the game for having two going on at once - a new combat implicitly ends the first one.
> >
> I don't think we should assume that every player would know the esoteric mechanisms you outline in the quote above. The bottom line is the card text on Psyche! is confusing. It should be changed for clarity.
>
I can't see the point that is confusing. You don't have to know that two combats can't take place at the same time.
Combat is "about to end"? Psyche! can be played.
What does it do? It starts a new combat when the round is over. (cardtext)
So you play Psyche!, you play other effects that are played at the end of the round. When you're done, a new combat starts. I can't see where the combat would overlap.
"after this round, combat ends". Since the combat is already about to end, it's redundant.
What did I miss?
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
> Psyche!
> Type: Combat
> Requires: Celerity
> [cel] Press.
> [CEL] Only usable at the end of a round when both combatants are still ready and combat is about to end. After this round, begin another combat with the opposing minion.
>
> > TwoRazorReign wrote:
> >
> > > jamesatzephyr wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > TwoRazorReign wrote:
> > > > I think his point was that the current text on Psyche! doesn't really jibe with the Complete Rules Reference. The text should state "after this round, combat ends, but begin a new combat with the opposing minion." Is there a reason why this wouldn't work?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > That would probably be fine. But since we only ever have one combat going on at once - there's no mechanism in the game for having two going on at once - a new combat implicitly ends the first one.
> > >
> > >
> > I don't think we should assume that every player would know the esoteric mechanisms you outline in the quote above. The bottom line is the card text on Psyche! is confusing. It should be changed for clarity.
> >
> I can't see the point that is confusing. You don't have to know that two combats can't take place at the same time.
>
> Combat is "about to end"? Psyche! can be played.
> What does it do? It starts a new combat when the round is over. (cardtext)
>
> So you play Psyche!, you play other effects that are played at the end of the round. When you're done, a new combat starts. I can't see where the combat would overlap.
>
> "after this round, combat ends". Since the combat is already about to end, it's redundant.
>
> What did I miss?
>
You didn't miss anything. I'm just pointing out that Psyche!, as currently stated, seems to skip over a step in the complete rules reference (I understand that it actually does not). See the first post in this thread for the confusion this can create.
The thing I never understood about Psyche! is why "combat ends" was never added to the text. The 1998 RTR clarification was made to clarify that the current combat ends before starting a new one (right? I'm assuming that's why this clarification was made. Please correct me if I'm wrong). Why not just add "combat ends" to the card text?
Here is the 1998 RTR clarification: The superior is played after combat ends, even though the card is a combat card. [RTR 19980928]
> TwoRazorReign wrote:
> The thing I never understood about Psyche! is why "combat ends" was never added to the text. The 1998 RTR clarification was made to clarify that the current combat ends before starting a new one (right? I'm assuming that's why this clarification was made. Please correct me if I'm wrong). Why not just add "combat ends" to the card text?[RTR 19980928]
>
1) It is redundant, since you already play the card when combat is about to end. There is no need to end it twice.
2) "Combat ends" does not do what you think it does. It does not skip to after combat, it skips to the end of round/end of combat phase. How can you do that when you already are in that phase?
The RTR clarification was there mainly to make the card playable. Otherwise, how are you supposed to play a combat card out of combat?
> TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote:
> And I beg to differ on your point above. VTES is exactly like that, there are plenty of precedents for thing getting skipped in this game. Consider:
>
> Ousting under Last Stand with a Temptation of Power that should be paid for in your discard phase. You don't pay beacause the discard pahse is skipped.)
>
Which isn't the point I was making. Something that goes off in your discard phase goes off in your discard phase. The point I was making was about phrases like "end of turn" and "end of combat" and "end of action" and "end of round" and "end of...". You can tell I was talking about this because I said:
"end of turn" or "end of round" or similar in them
The combat ended, so the round ended, and it doesn't matter if that's because someone tapped Elysium, someone played Pocket Out of Time, someone played Alpha Glint, someone played Majesty, Muddles sent his opponent to torpor through damage at first strike, someone played Coma at normal strike, someone played Autonomic Mastery, someone played Disarm, someone torporized their opponent with Pulled Fangs, or the round just naturally ended.
> TwoRazorReign wrote:
>
> > jamesatzephyr wrote:
> >
> > > TwoRazorReign wrote:
> > > I think his point was that the current text on Psyche! doesn't really jibe with the Complete Rules Reference. The text should state "after this round, combat ends, but begin a new combat with the opposing minion." Is there a reason why this wouldn't work?
> > >
> > >
> > That would probably be fine. But since we only ever have one combat going on at once - there's no mechanism in the game for having two going on at once - a new combat implicitly ends the first one.
> >
> I don't think we should assume that every player would know the esoteric mechanisms you outline in the quote above. The bottom line is the card text on Psyche! is confusing. It should be changed for clarity.
>
You appear to be assuming I'm opposing your suggestion. I didn't. I merely pointed out that the card already works like that, even with its current wording.
I have no objection to card text being clearer.
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
>
> > TwoRazorReign wrote:
> >
> > > jamesatzephyr wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > TwoRazorReign wrote:
> > > > I think his point was that the current text on Psyche! doesn't really jibe with the Complete Rules Reference. The text should state "after this round, combat ends, but begin a new combat with the opposing minion." Is there a reason why this wouldn't work?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > That would probably be fine. But since we only ever have one combat going on at once - there's no mechanism in the game for having two going on at once - a new combat implicitly ends the first one.
> > >
> > >
> > I don't think we should assume that every player would know the esoteric mechanisms you outline in the quote above. The bottom line is the card text on Psyche! is confusing. It should be changed for clarity.
> >
> You appear to be assuming I'm opposing your suggestion. I didn't. I merely pointed out that the card already works like that, even with its current wording.
>
> I have no objection to card text being clearer.
>
I apologize if I misunderstood this, but it seemed like the prevailing attitude of your previous post was that if one followed the rules of combat logically, then one can distinguish what the card text on Psyche! really means. I think a lot of players may not understand the rules enough to follow the same logic as you, and those players will use the complete rules reference as a resource instead. And for those players, it's like "huh, so does combat end or what?"
> TwoRazorReign wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> > Psyche!
> > Type: Combat
> > Requires: Celerity
> > [cel] Press.
> > [CEL] Only usable at the end of a round when both combatants are still ready and combat is about to end. After this round, begin another combat with the opposing minion.
> >
> > > TwoRazorReign wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > jamesatzephyr wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > TwoRazorReign wrote:
> > > > > I think his point was that the current text on Psyche! doesn't really jibe with the Complete Rules Reference. The text should state "after this round, combat ends, but begin a new combat with the opposing minion." Is there a reason why this wouldn't work?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > That would probably be fine. But since we only ever have one combat going on at once - there's no mechanism in the game for having two going on at once - a new combat implicitly ends the first one.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > I don't think we should assume that every player would know the esoteric mechanisms you outline in the quote above. The bottom line is the card text on Psyche! is confusing. It should be changed for clarity.
> > >
> > >
> > I can't see the point that is confusing. You don't have to know that two combats can't take place at the same time.
> >
> > Combat is "about to end"? Psyche! can be played.
> > What does it do? It starts a new combat when the round is over. (cardtext)
> >
> > So you play Psyche!, you play other effects that are played at the end of the round. When you're done, a new combat starts. I can't see where the combat would overlap.
> >
> > "after this round, combat ends". Since the combat is already about to end, it's redundant.
> >
> > What did I miss?
> >
> You didn't miss anything. I'm just pointing out that Psyche!, as currently stated, seems to skip over a step in the complete rules reference (I understand that it actually does not). See the first post in this thread for the confusion this can create.
>
Even when I read the Complete Rule Reference, I can't understand where Psyche! would jump steps.
> VI. HOW TO RESOLVE A COMBAT [6.4]
> C. Strike. [6.4.3]
> 2. Resolve strikes. [6.4.3.2]
> a. i. Strike: Combat Ends. [6.4.5] (go to step E).
>
and step E is
> E. Round Ends. [6.4.4]
> Apply any end-of-round effects.
> If the press step ended with "to continue", then another round begins (Go back to step A).
>
then
> F. Combat Ends. [6.4.7]
>
So Psyche! is played in step E. Combat is about to end, Psyche! will start a new combat after step F.
Unless you thought that S:CE would bring you directly in step F?
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Because the text on Psyche! does not explicitly say that combat ends. It says "after this round, begin another combat." This could be interpreted as going from step E to step A, thus skipping step F. All I am saying is that this is easily confusing to somebody who is not as knowledgeable as you, an expert, about combat mechanics.
> TwoRazorReign wrote:
> This could be interpreted as going from step E to step A, thus skipping step F.
>
This is precisely the issue.
1) Combat cards have been know to create situations where combat steps are skipped. S:CE skipping normal strike resolution, additional strikes and presses as a prime example, though skipping set range also sometimes hsappes. At any rate, there are clear precedents for skipping steps/ I've never seen an explicit ruling that "end of round" or "end of combat" cannot be skipped.....which is why I started this thread.
2) Round ends and combat ends are separate combat steps, per CRR. Until today, I hadn't noticed that CRR explicitly called out the S:CE advances to step E, though it's how I've interpreted S:CE for quite a while. It's good to see that has been included.
3) Cards typically resolve in the step in which they are played, barring explicit text. Following that rule of thumb, one could (and should) reason that Psyche!, played in the EoR step, immediately jumps from the outline step "E" to step "A." Yes, one could say Psyches! resolution is to que up a combat following the end of this one, but that's not the language present on the card, which says to start a new combat after this round (not this combat).
In the end, I'm not suggesting that the cards should work any differently than they do (S:CE goes to step E, combat can't end without a round ending and a second combat can't start without the previous one ending). It helps that the functions remain mostly consistent with part function (the one exception I can think of is Psyche! now double-replacing under Infernal Pursuit, but still dropping when the next combat initiates).
I do take exception to the thought that cards which say playable at the end of a round being played in anything other than step E (which happen in any and every combat round). And I think the new Psyche! could be worded in a fashion which more accurate describes the intended sequence of events
> Non-existant user wrote:
>
> > TwoRazorReign wrote:
> > The thing I never understood about Psyche! is why "combat ends" was never added to the text. The 1998 RTR clarification was made to clarify that the current combat ends before starting a new one (right? I'm assuming that's why this clarification was made. Please correct me if I'm wrong). Why not just add "combat ends" to the card text?[RTR 19980928]
> >
> 1) It is redundant, since you already play the card when combat is about to end. There is no need to end it twice.
> 2) "Combat ends" does not do what you think it does. It does not skip to after combat, it skips to the end of round/end of combat phase. How can you do that when you already are in that phase?
>
> The RTR clarification was there mainly to make the card playable. Otherwise, how are you supposed to play a combat card out of combat?
>
1. "When combat is about to end" does not mean "when combat ends." It means "before combat ends." Adding combat ends, in my opinion, would therefore not be redundant.
2. There is no "end of round/end of combat" phase. There is an "end of round" phase and an "end of combat" phase. See steps E and F of the complete rules reference. Adding "combat ends" would ensure that step F of the complete rules reference is not skipped.
> TwoRazorReign wrote:
>
> > Non-existant user wrote:
> >
> > > TwoRazorReign wrote:
> > > The thing I never understood about Psyche! is why "combat ends" was never added to the text. The 1998 RTR clarification was made to clarify that the current combat ends before starting a new one (right? I'm assuming that's why this clarification was made. Please correct me if I'm wrong). Why not just add "combat ends" to the card text?[RTR 19980928]
> > >
> > 1) It is redundant, since you already play the card when combat is about to end. There is no need to end it twice.
> > 2) "Combat ends" does not do what you think it does. It does not skip to after combat, it skips to the end of round/end of combat phase. How can you do that when you already are in that phase?
> >
> > The RTR clarification was there mainly to make the card playable. Otherwise, how are you supposed to play a combat card out of combat?
> >
> 1. "When combat is about to end" does not mean "when combat ends." It means "before combat ends." Adding combat ends, in my opinion, would therefore not be redundant.
> 2. There is no "end of round/end of combat" phase. There is an "end of round" phase and an "end of combat" phase. See steps E and F of the complete rules reference. Adding "combat ends" would ensure that step F of the complete rules reference is not skipped.
>
I start to understand your concern. The CRR is neither perfect nor a source reference (for me): it has a few glitches. And cards aren't written to match the CRR.
Nevertheless, Psyche! could say "After this combat..." even if it's exactly the same (except if you read the CRR step by step) since the combat ends at the same time round ends (since combat is about to end).
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> I start to understand your concern. The CRR is neither perfect nor a source reference (for me): it has a few glitches. And cards aren't written to match the CRR.
>
> Nevertheless, Psyche! could say "After this combat..." even if it's exactly the same (except if you read the CRR step by step) since the combat ends at the same time round ends (since combat is about to end).
>
See, I would argue that in the case of Psyche!, the problem is not the complete rules reference, it's the text on Psyche!. Psyche! should state that combat ends the same way that Telepathic Tracking states that combat does not end. I would also argue that glitches in the complete rules reference should be fixed and cards definitely should be written to match the complete rules reference.
I'm not sure I see what is unclear (probably because I've been reading it for quite some time the way I want it to work).
However, here are some rulings that might be useful to take into consideration:
- Psyche! vs Obedience [LSJ 19991025] The reacting vampire can Wake + Obedience after a Psyche! in the first combat
This means Psyche! queues a combat, and that a little window opens between these two combats.
Psyche! doesn't end the combat. Especially: you can play Psyche!, and then Taste of Vitae, and then Disarm.
Psyche vs Telepathic Tracking: If Psyche is played first, TT can be played in the same round. TT will void any previously played Psyche. This implies that Psyche! doesn't end combat
If TT is played first, obviously Psyche cannot be played afterwards (as the combat isn't ending anymore).
vekn.net/forum/6-rules-questions/16788-new-psyche-and-telepathic-tracking?limit=10&start=30#18835
About the initial question involving Marthe:
vekn.net/forum/6-rules-questions/16788-new-psyche-and-telepathic-tracking#16820
>
> - Can Marthe retrieve a Psyche! she just played?
> Yes. Happy New Year, Marthe!
>
Thanks for providing those rulings. I am clear on the mechanics behind how Psyche! works. The issue is that there is a fundamental flaw with the text on Psyche!. The text as currently stated could be interpreted as skipping step F in the complete rules reference under "VI. HOW TO RESOLVE A COMBAT." (the first post in this thread is an example of this interpretation). The flaw can easily be fixed by explicitly stating that combat ends.
> TwoRazorReign wrote:
> The text as currently stated could be interpreted as skipping step F in the complete rules reference under "VI. HOW TO RESOLVE A COMBAT." (the first post in this thread is an example of this interpretation). The flaw can easily be fixed by explicitly stating that combat ends.
>
"After this round, begin another combat with the opposing minion." doesn't imply that step F is skipped or skipped to. Adding "combat ends" to the card text would just add to the confusion as the current behaviour of "combat ends" skips to the end of the round (step E) which is the step Psyche is played in!
Asides from that, as others have pointed out the text would be irrelevant as combat is about to end anyway due to the next step "Combat Ends." (F).
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> Ke. wrote:
>
> > TwoRazorReign wrote:
> > The text as currently stated could be interpreted as skipping step F in the complete rules reference under "VI. HOW TO RESOLVE A COMBAT." (the first post in this thread is an example of this interpretation). The flaw can easily be fixed by explicitly stating that combat ends.
> >
> "After this round, begin another combat with the opposing minion." doesn't imply that step F is skipped or skipped to. Adding "combat ends" to the card text would just add to the confusion as the current behaviour of "combat ends" skips to the end of the round (step E) which is the step Psyche is played in!
>
> Asides from that, as others have pointed out the text would be irrelevant as combat is about to end anyway due to the next step "Combat Ends." (F).
>
Point taken. And I would argue that "After this round, combat ends, and begin another combat" is much clearer about what is supposed to happen next than the current card text.
> TwoRazorReign wrote:
> Point taken. And I would argue that "After this round, combat ends, and begin another combat" is much clearer about what is supposed to happen next than the current card text.
>
But that would invalid the current ruling that you can play TT after Psyche!, and having it cause a new round of the same combat (you would have two contradictory effets after this round).
> Pascal wrote:
>
> > TwoRazorReign wrote:
> > Point taken. And I would argue that "After this round, combat ends, and begin another combat" is much clearer about what is supposed to happen next than the current card text.
> >
> But that would invalid the current ruling that you can play TT after Psyche!, and having it cause a new round of the same combat (you would have two contradictory effets after this round).
>
Thanks for the response. I still think it would be fine to include "combat ends" on Psyche! I think that ruling you cite is making the interaction between these two cards needlessly complicated. They interact just fine by the rulebook. Let's say two methuselahs are in combat. Methuselah 1 plays Psyche!, which says that combat ends. Using the impulse rules outlined in the rulebook, the opposing methuselah plays Telepathic Tracking, which clearly states that combat does not end. In this situation, Telepathic tracking simply trumps Psyche! instead of contradicting it. And Psyche! would trump Telepathic Tracking if Telepathic Tracking was played first. This seems like a clean way to have these cards interact.
> TwoRazorReign wrote:
> I still think it would be fine to include "combat ends" on Psyche! I think that ruling you cite is making the interaction between these two cards needlessly complicated. They interact just fine by the rulebook.
>
But combat cards can only be played in combat. So your definitive "Combat Ends Right Now" bit of text would actually prevent telepathic tracking from being played.
I think the ruling that combat cards must be played in combat and the tweak to when Psyche is played resolved most of these issues. It's much clearer now that it was.
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> But combat cards can only be played in combat. So your definitive "Combat Ends Right Now" bit of text would actually prevent telepathic tracking from being played.
>
> I think the ruling that combat cards must be played in combat and the tweak to when Psyche is played resolved most of these issues. It's much clearer now that it was.
>
No cards are being played out of combat if you are following the sequencing rules outlined in the rulebook (see the fourth sentence in the paragraph below). And I agree that how Psyche! actually works now is much cleaner than it used to be. My quibble is with how the text on Psyche is stated, and how the interaction between Psyche! and Telepathic Tracking does not follow the rules outlined in the rulebook.
Sequencing. If two or more players want to play a card or effect, the acting Methuselah plays first. At every stage, the acting player always has the opportunity to play the next card or effect. So after playing one effect, she may play another and another. Once she is finished, the opportunity passes to the defending Methuselah (in the cases of directed actions and combat), then to the rest of the Methuselahs in clockwise order from the acting Methuselah. Note that if any Methuselah uses a card or effect, the acting Methuselah again gets the opportunity to play the next effect.
> TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote:
> I do take exception to the thought that cards which say playable at the end of a round being played in anything other than step E (which happen in any and every combat round). And I think the new Psyche! could be worded in a fashion which more accurate describes the intended sequence of events
>
I agree. The CRR is meant to clarify the spartan rules in the Rulebook and around combat they don't always explicitly address things or at least have ambiguities which can cause chaos.
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