Card Replacement

Since we have a discussion about it in our playgroup every now and then, I kindly ask for an "official answer". The question is about the action card "Gift of Proteus" and the master card "Blessing of the Beast". > > Gift of Proteus > +1 stealth action. > Put this card on this Gangrel with any number of cards requiring Protean [pro] from your hand face down (you can look at the cards at any time). > > Blessing of the Beast > Master. > Put this card on an Ahrimane with any number of cards that require Spiritus [spi] from your hand (face down). > The question is: Do you replace before the "put this card ... with any number of cards that ..." step, so you can choose from your full handsize? I guess the answer is "yes", since I cannot see any text that stops the usual "replace a played card" routine. Thanks in advance! National Coordinator Germany nc [dot] germany [at] magenta [dot] de

The real question is: are the cards chosen when announcing the action, or upon resolution? Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Hakuron wrote: > The question is: Do you replace before the "put this card ... with any number of cards that ..." step, so you can choose from your full handsize? > > I guess the answer is "yes", since I cannot see any text that stops the usual "replace a played card" routine. > You choose them when you play it and announce the terms of the card. This all happens before you replace the card, because the normal order is: - play card and announce what it's doing (set targets, choose what "X" is for cards with an X, what level it's being played at, or whatever else) - let people cancel the card - replace the card. [LSJ 20100206] > > LSJ, wrote: > > - Blessing of the Beast > > Do you replace for playing Blessing of the Name it before you put the > > cards on it ? > > (put another way : do you have to set "any" when you play the cards, > > or do you set it at resolution ?) > Fully announce each card play = You set the "any" when you play it. >

Let's say I have 1 Gift of Proteus in hand, 3 Flesh of Marble and 3 Form of Mist. I play Gift of Proteus and announce 5 cards. The action is blocked. During combat, I play Flesh of Marble and Form of Mist to continue the action. The action is not blocked. Which cards can I put on Gift of Proteus? Same question with 6 cards. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > Let's say I have 1 Gift of Proteus in hand, 3 Flesh of Marble and 3 Form of Mist. I play Gift of Proteus and announce 5 cards. The action is blocked. During combat, I play Flesh of Marble and Form of Mist to continue the action. The action is not blocked. Which cards can I put on Gift of Proteus? > Probably the best precedent here is Charming Lobby. [LSJ 20011113] > > LSJ wrote: > > Which brings up the question of what happens if some effect* > > results in the named political action card leaving your hand between the > > announcing of the CL and its resolution. > > > > * I'm not sure whether this is possible as of now, but let's assume the > > acting vampire has the ability "Once per turn you may discard X > > political action cards to give this vampie +X steatlh." > It could happen if you're blocked by a Raptor-employing vampire and continue > the action with Form of Mist or somesuch. > > At any rate, like the similar case with the Bomb being destroyed in the > process of taking the Bomb-to-burn-a-location action, the action simply > fizzles when it resolves if the necessary elements are no longer present. > I think what I'm about to say doesn't apply in the cast of BotB or GoP, but to cover this sort of "name the card" situation... However, note that only cards in play are targeted by instance. In an analogous situation involving the ash heap with two different ash heap meddling effects: [LSJ 20050228] > > LSJ wrote: > > I was under the impression you had to choose a card specifically, and > > that the person using the erciyes fragments could target the same card, > > even if you do have another card of the same name in there. Am I > > mistaken? > Yes. You name the card. > And this appears to have been understood by Pascal (just prior to his ascension to Rules Director) to apply to cards in the hand, as well: [a few weeks too early to actually be FZD 20110617] > > Pascal wrote: > The answer above, approved by LSJ, is that you don't need to choose a copy of a card in your hand, but just name it. If, during the process of the action, you get to discard that copy and replace it with another one, then you still must discard a card which name is the chosen one at resolution (and apply the other effects of the action). > However, with Gift of Proteus or Blessing of the Beast, it appears you don't actually name the cards, just the number. That would still be a "necessary element" when you hit resolution, though. So my hunch would be that if you can still put the number of cards on that you announced, that's fine, the action's successful. If you get there and no longer have the number of cards you announced, the action reaches resolution successfully - but then fizzles.

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > If you get there and no longer have the number of cards you announced, the action reaches resolution successfully - but then fizzles. > I'm not certain it fizzles if you manage to put at least 1 card, since it's not part of the cost, and because of a parallel with cards with multiple targets. RTR8-8-8 > LSJ wrote: > If one of the multiple targets becomes ineligible during the course of the > action, then it's handled just as if it had always been ineligible. The action > resolves on the remaining targets as above. > I added also the question with 6 cards since any card you'll play during the action is obviously one of the card you chose in the first place (whereas with 5 cards, it could be only the last card you replace again and again). Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > RTR8-8-8 > > > LSJ wrote: > > If one of the multiple targets becomes ineligible during the course of the > > action, then it's handled just as if it had always been ineligible. The action > > resolves on the remaining targets as above. > > Hmm. That's arguable. However, as I say, in this case, it doesn't actually seem to target anything. I don't think you name the cards (otherwise why place them face down?). Leaving aside everything else, say I picked a low number, like 2. I have 2 Protean cards in hand. During the course of the action, I play some Obfuscate stealth (i.e. not a Protean card), and redraw some Protean cards. Now I get to resolution and have 4 Protean cards. Which 2 can I put on Gift? I think you just set the number when the card is played, but am not 100% sure. Also, assuming the card worked the way you suggest (which it might), say I have 6 cards (+Gift+ in hand when I play Gift. Can I say "7", hoping to redraw another Protean card (or even knowing that I will, if I've meddled with my library somehow), and then put all seven on during resolution? More generally. can I say a number higher than the number I currently have, because I know I'm going to discard/change cards in the action somehow? I'm reminded somewhat of the situation with counters - where you don't target specific counters, just the thing they're on, and take as many as you can if there are insufficient by the time you get there (e.g. during a steal blood strike for 2, the minion drops to 1 blood, and also the consistent but contentious Villein ruling). I'm trying to think of an analogous situation where you might have been told to/volunteered to burn X cards, discard X cards etc., but can't think of a relevant one. And the counters ruling has always been reasonably self-contained. > Ankha wrote: > I added also the question with 6 cards since any card you'll play during the action is obviously one of the card you chose in the first place (whereas with 5 cards, it could be only the last card you replace again and again). > Gift of Proteus isn't a "Do Not Replace" action. Once you play it and it's not cancelled, you re-draw it. So you can play that seventh card, over and over.

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > Gift of Proteus isn't a "Do Not Replace" action. Once you play it and it's not cancelled, you re-draw it. So you can play that seventh card, over and over. > Hm right, so let's say someone played Meddling of Semsith on you, which is the same as: > jamesatzephyr wrote: > Can I say "7", hoping to redraw another Protean card (or even knowing that I will, if I've meddled with my library somehow), and then put all seven on during resolution? > Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Thanks! If you allow me to set aisde the special case subquestion of Ankha for a moment: The correct question to my case is: »Are the cards chosen when announcing the action, or upon resolution?« And the correct answer is: »You choose the cards for GoP/BotB, when you play it and announce its terms.« Right? * So a good solution might be to set aside the chosen cards in my hand when playing GoP/BotB, like when I put aside the weapon to fetch when playing »Concealed Weapon« or when I put aside a second »Shattering Crescendo« when playing Shattering Crescendo to indicate I have it in my hand and it is not a replacemnet card. Right, too? * The case Ankha and jamesatzephyr discuss is to make clear what happens, when some of the "set aside cards" are used during the resolution of GoP. Right again? National Coordinator Germany nc [dot] germany [at] magenta [dot] de

> Hakuron wrote: > Thanks! If you allow me to set aisde the special case subquestion of Ankha for a moment: > > The correct question to my case is: > »Are the cards chosen when announcing the action, or upon resolution?« > > And the correct answer is: > »You choose the cards for GoP/BotB, when you play it and announce its terms.« > > Right? > Correct; and that also means: before replacing that master/action card. > Hakuron wrote: > So a good solution might be to set aside the chosen cards in my hand when playing GoP/BotB, like when I put aside the weapon to fetch when playing »Concealed Weapon« or when I put aside a second »Shattering Crescendo« when playing Shattering Crescendo to indicate I have it in my hand and it is not a replacemnet card. > > Right, too? > Could do, but dangerous (as it makes a distinction between two sets of cards of your hand) and unnecessary. When in doubt, call a judge who can confirm the requirement (for Concealed Weapon, Shattering Crescendo, Blessing of the Beast, ...) is met.. > Hakuron wrote: > The case Ankha and jamesatzephyr discuss is to make clear what happens, when some of the "set aside cards" are used during the resolution of GoP. > > Right again? > Well, I suppose that's what they are aiming for. Anyways, here are some answers to the questions that have raised in this thread: - The declaration of the Gift of Proteus / Blessing of the Beast contains a number (named "any" in the cardtexts). So you'd say, for exampl,e "Mimir plays superior Gift of Proteus and I'll be moving 4 cards". At that point, Gift of Proteus is no longer in your hand, and you need (at least) 4 cards requiring Protean in your hand. - If, for some reason, we reach successful resolution with a different set of 4 cards, it doesn't matter, as only "4" was part of the terms, the specific cards, or their names, wasn't. So on successful resolution, you would still have to move 4 cards from your hand to Gift of Proteus. - If, for some reason, you have more than 4 cards requiring Protean at successful resolution, choose any 4 and move them to Gift of Proteus. - If, for some reason, you have less than 4 cards requiring Protean at successful resolution, choose as many as possible and move them to Gift of Proteus. This last ruling reflects [groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/r-N65rA52uo/OXW8xk1r1iMJ][LSJ 20090722][/url] - Sudario Refraction vs Erciyes Fragments ruling's intent.

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > Also, assuming the card worked the way you suggest (which it might), say I have 6 cards (+Gift+ in hand when I play Gift. Can I say "7", hoping to redraw another Protean card (or even knowing that I will, if I've meddled with my library somehow), and then put all seven on during resolution? More generally. can I say a number higher than the number I currently have, because I know I'm going to discard/change cards in the action somehow? > No, as the declaration of that term would be incorrect when it would be made.

> Ankha wrote: > Let's say I have 1 Gift of Proteus in hand, 3 Flesh of Marble and 3 Form of Mist. I play Gift of Proteus and announce 5 cards. The action is blocked. During combat, I play Flesh of Marble and Form of Mist to continue the action. The action is not blocked. Which cards can I put on Gift of Proteus? > Any set of up-to-5 cards that require Protean (but you cannot move less than 5 if you have 5). > Ankha wrote: > Same question with 6 cards. > Any set of up-to-6 cards that require Protean (but you cannot move less than 6 if you have 6).

> Pascal wrote: > Could do, but dangerous (as it makes a distinction between two sets of cards of your hand) and unnecessary. When in doubt, call a judge who can confirm the requirement (for Concealed Weapon, Shattering Crescendo, Blessing of the Beast, ...) is met. > > Pascal wrote: > - The declaration of the Gift of Proteus / Blessing of the Beast contains a number (named "any" in the cardtexts). So you'd say, for exampl,e "Mimir plays superior Gift of Proteus and I'll be moving 4 cards". At that point, Gift of Proteus is no longer in your hand, and you need (at least) 4 cards requiring Protean in your hand. > Does it mean that if I play Concealed Weapon and I have a Sniper Rifle in hand, and that when I play Concealed Weapon I draw a .44 Magnum I can change my mind and choose the .44 Magnum? Concealed Weapon: This minion equips with a non-unique weapon card from your hand (requirements and cost apply as normal). The weapon cannot cost 3 or more pool or inflict {with a regular strike} aggravated damage or 4 or more damage. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Hi Bertrand, Thanks so much for weighing in on this thread. If that is a ruling, I would petition you to reverse it. Here's my case: 1) Moving "any number of cards" is part of the resolution of the action (or MPA) and not part of the declaration of the action (or MPA). 2) The word "any" is not the same as the variable X. If the card were meant to work as you have ruled, the best way to write the card using the games available formats would be: "Pick X. Put his card on this Gangrel with X cards requiring Protean...[etc]" Then it would work exactly as you ruled. I would say that "any" in English works in quite a different way from "X," it has both a connotation and denotation of not caring how many. e.g. Question: Which cards should I put face down? Answer: "Any number of cards." Meaning: It doesn't matter which or how many cards. It could even be 0 or 11. I would represent that this is the simplest and most accurate interpretation of the cards: > Gift of Proteus > +1 stealth action. > Put this card on this Gangrel with any number of cards requiring Protean [pro] from your hand face down (you can look at the cards at any time). > I declare Gift of Proteus with this vampire. Blocks? No blocks? Okay, I put Gift of Proteus on this Gangrel and I move any number of cards to it. > Blessing of the Beast > Master. > Put this card on an Ahrimane with any number of cards that require Spiritus [spi] from your hand (face down). > I am playing Blessing of the Beast on this Ahrimane. Sudden reversals? Wash? Burning blood to cancel it? Okay, I am putting this card on the Ahrimane and moving any number of cards to it. Incidentally, I think this aligns with one of the implicit game design principles about information. Declaring before resolution that you have X number of cards in your hand that meet a certain requirement (require Protean or Spiritus) would be a rare and high-cost thing to do. The cards would only do that with explicit text that says to do it that way. Playing Concealed Weapon reveals only the one weapon card, and options to cancel it are few (and post-date the creation of the card). Thanks so much for considering my review request!

Even stronger argument "Put this card" is part of the resolution of the card, therefore anything happening after that is part of the resolution of the card. If something needed to be declared to resolve further effects, it would either say so before saying "Put this card [on the vampire]" or it woulds explicitly say that it needed to be declared in the card text.

Definition of "any" : an·y ˈenē/Submit determiner & pronoun 1. used to refer to one or some of a thing or number of things, no matter how much or many. "I don't have any choice" 2. whichever of a specified class might be chosen. "these constellations are visible at any hour of the night" adverb adverb: any 1. (used for emphasis) at all; in some degree. "he wasn't any good at basketball" synonyms: at all, in the least, to any extent, in/to any degree "is your father any better?"

> Lead wrote: > 1) Moving "any number of cards" is part of the resolution of the action (or MPA) and not part of the declaration of the action (or MPA). > But... Entering combat with a minion (Bum's Rush, Ambush) is part of the resolution, so that's not part of the declaration, either? Woohoo! > Lead wrote: > 2) The word "any" is not the same as the variable X. If the card were meant to work as you have ruled, the best way to write the card using the games available formats would be: "Pick X. Put his card on this Gangrel with X cards requiring Protean...[etc]" > Picking the number when you play the card isn't something that Pascal has ruled on - that came from LSJ. > Lead wrote: > Then it would work exactly as you ruled. I would say that "any" in English works in quite a different way from "X," it has both a connotation and denotation of not caring how many. > e.g. > Question: Which cards should I put face down? > Answer: "Any number of cards." > Meaning: It doesn't matter which or how many cards. It could even be 0 or 11. > See Minion Tap: "Move any amount of blood from one of the vampires you control to your pool." You have to specify how much blood you're moving when you play the card (before anyone can cancel it), not after. Similarly, Gird Minions. > Lead wrote: > I would represent that this is the simplest and most accurate interpretation of the cards: > I'm not sure how being inconsistent with previous rulings is "simplest and most accurate". > Lead wrote: > Incidentally, I think this aligns with one of the implicit game design principles about information. Declaring before resolution that you have X number of cards in your hand that meet a certain requirement (require Protean or Spiritus) would be a rare and high-cost thing to do. > You're starting from your own vision as to how this should work, and working your justification backwards from there. There's nothing in the game that says this is "rare" or "high cost". Shock Troops will reveal that you have X cards in your hand. Free Fight will require you to announce how many Blood Brothers you're going to tap. > Lead wrote: > The cards would only do that with explicit text that says to do it that way. > That's one way V:TES could work, but this isn't something that's based in how V:TES works at the moment - and runs counter to a number of existing cards.