Re: Vlad Tepes + Regent

Is it possible to play Regent on Vlad Tepes so he can become one and wield 4 votes thanks to it?

Vlad Tepes doesn't allow his controller to play Regent on him (eg. Vlad Tepes doesn't play Regent). Name: Vlad Tepes Independent: Vlad can play and use requiring a title or a sect as if he had that title or were of that sect. +1 bleed. Name: Regent Cardtype: Master Cost: 1 pool Master. Title. Put this card on a Sabbat vampire you control with a capacity above 7 to represent the unique Sabbat title of regent. Any Sabbat vampire with a different controller can enter combat with this vampire as a action. If a Sabbat vampire diablerizes this vampire, move this card to the diablerist (before the blood hunt is called). Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > Vlad Tepes doesn't allow his controller to play Regent on him (eg. Vlad Tepes doesn't play Regent). > > Name: Vlad Tepes > Independent: Vlad can play and use requiring a title or a sect as if he had that title or were of that sect. +1 bleed. > And, for confirmation, there was discussion of what this means with Kemintiri, who used the same wording. [LSJ 20050721] > > LSJ wrote: > So: REVERSAL (to take effect 30 days from now, for constructed deck > tournaments). Merged Kemintiri doesn't enable you to play master cards, > it only enables her to play certain minion cards. > Her clarified card text now says: She can play minion cards that require Camarilla, Ventrue, and/or a justicar title as if she met that/those requirement(s). But her original card text didn't specify "minion" cards: vtes.pl/card/42765 She can play cards that require Camarilla, Ventrue and/or a justicar title.

and is it possible for Vlad to use cards like powerbase: madrid? Master: unique location. During your untap phase, add one counter to this card from the blood bank if it has less than 4 counters. Tap to give a titled Sabbat vampire X additional votes during a referendum, where X is the number of counters on this card. Any vampire controlled by another Methuselah can take a action to burn all the counters on this card. or purchase pact (if you have anothor sabbat titled vampire to play it Unique master. Requires a ready archbishop, priscus, cardinal or regent. Put this card into play. When a Sabbat vampire you control is in combat with another Sabbat vampire, you may tap this card before range is determined to end combat. Any titled Sabbat vampire may call a referendum to burn this card as a +1 stealth political action.

Probably no in both counts.

> alek wrote: > and is it possible for Vlad to use cards like powerbase: madrid? > > or purchase pact (if you have anothor sabbat titled vampire to play it > I'd say definitely "no" to Purchase Pact, because it's you (Methuselah) who uses it, not the vampire. Powerbase: Madrid is more interesting, but I can't find precedent. I was wondering if Beast, Leatherface of Detroit, might provide precedent here, because he can't "use" equipment. Consider that Shackles of Enkidu is on one of your other vampires (not Beast) - can Beast take the action on Shackles to burn it? Similarly, could he enter combat with a bearer of Venificorum Artem Sanguis, if he'd clan impersonated? Could he burn a Stolen Police Cruiser? I'm tempted to think that it in all three cases, that might count as "using" it, which would bar him - but I can't find a specific answer on any of these points - and so would be tempted to allow Vlad to use in-play cards such as PB: Madrid, where he initiates an action. But not for Purchase Pact or Papillon . Relevant card text: Shackles: "Any minion may burn this card as a action" Veneficorum: "Any Tremere or Tremere antitribu may enter combat with the minion with this equipment as a action." Stolen Police Cruiser: "Any vampire can burn this card as a action that costs 1 pool."

How can beast clan impersonate ? Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

Powerbase: Madrid is not a card that requires a sect or a title, so its only interaction with Vlad Tepes is about burning the counters on the card. Purchase Pact does require a title, but is used by a Methuselah ("you can ...", rather than "a [titled] vampire can...") So, no to both. @Jamesatzephyr: Beast cannot take the action to burn the Shackles - similarly, a vampire with Potence under Drawing Out the Beast cannot strike: burn the Meat Hook (I'm pretty sure there's a ruling somewhere for this one)

> Lech wrote: > How can beast clan impersonate ? > Should have been more of a hypothetical than a real question. > Pascal wrote: > Powerbase: Madrid is not a card that requires a sect or a title, so its only interaction with Vlad Tepes is about burning the counters on the card. > Oh, duh, I managed to mis-read it as the action requiring a titled vampire. > Pascal wrote: > similarly, a vampire with Potence under Drawing Out the Beast cannot strike: burn the Meat Hook (I'm pretty sure there's a ruling somewhere for this one) > Ooh, neat. I forgot about Meat Hook. [LSJ 20101217] > LSJ wrote: > > Does the strike to destroy it count > > as "using" the equipment? > > Yes, for the vampire striking to destroy it. > > That is, if the vampire opposing the Meat Hook bearer is prohibited > from using weapons, then xe cannot strike to destroy the Meat Hook. > So on that score: Purchase Pact is in play. Can Vlad Tepes call the +1 stealth political action to burn it? "Requires a ready archbishop, priscus, cardinal or regent. ... Any titled Sabbat vampire may call a referendum to burn this card as a +1 stealth political action." What about Powerbase: New York? "Any Sabbat vampire controlled by another Methuselah can take a action to move all the blood on the 'base to his or her controller's blood pool." The reason for the two eaxmples is that Purchase Pact requires a title to play, but also to use the action. Powerbase: NY does not require a title or sect to play, but does require a sect to use its move action.

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > Purchase Pact is in play. Can Vlad Tepes call the +1 stealth political action to burn it? "Requires a ready archbishop, priscus, cardinal or regent. ... Any titled Sabbat vampire may call a referendum to burn this card as a +1 stealth political action." > Yes. > jamesatzephyr wrote: > What about Powerbase: New York? "Any Sabbat vampire controlled by another Methuselah can take a action to move all the blood on the 'base to his or her controller's blood pool." > No, the card (Powerbase: New York) doesn't require a vampire with a specific title / sect, so Vlad cannot use it. > jamesatzephyr wrote: > The reason for the two eaxmples is that Purchase Pact requires a title to play, but also to use the action. Powerbase: NY does not require a title or sect to play, but does require a sect to use its move action. > Which is why Vlad's cardtext allows Vlad to use Purchase Pact, but not to use Powerbase: New York. EDIT: If we had a card such as: "Requires a Sabbat vampire. Put this card in play. Any Camarilla vampire can enter combat with a Sabbat vampire as a +1 stealth action." Vlad couldn't use it to enter combat with anyone, as the card requires a Sabbat vampire and doesn't grant anything to Sabbat vampires.

> Pascal wrote: > EDIT: If we had a card such as: > "Requires a Sabbat vampire. > Put this card in play. Any Camarilla vampire can enter combat with a Sabbat vampire as a +1 stealth action." > Vlad couldn't use it to enter combat with anyone, as the card requires a Sabbat vampire and doesn't grant anything to Sabbat vampires. > How about Inquisitor or Archon? Requires a ready archbishop, cardinal or regent. ... Any Sabbat vampire may call a referendum to burn this card as a +1 stealth political action. Requires a prince or justicar. ...Any Camarilla vampire can call a referendum to burn this card as a +1 stealth political action. Also, what happens if Vlad plays Anarch Secession? Can he choose to be a Prince/Archbishop of somewhere for the purposes of playing the card, and thus become the Baron of somewhere? +1 stealth action. Requires a ready, non-anarch, titled vampire. ...If he or she had a city title, put this card on him or her as a title card to represent the title of baron of the same city. Does Abbot's in-play effect count as using the card? +1 stealth action. Requires a Sabbat vampire. Put this card on this acting Sabbat vampire and untap him or her. This Sabbat vampire gets +1 intercept against actions directed at his or her controller. Can he use an in-play Under Siege? +1 stealth action. Unique. Requires a titled Sabbat vampire. Put this card in play with 3 counters. Once each action, a Sabbat vampire you control can burn 1 counter from this card to untap and attempt to block with +1 intercept, even if intercept is not yet needed. Note that Under Siege works differently to - say - Pentex(tm) Loves You (Which wouldn't work for Vlad anyhow), where that sort of card definitely has the Methuselah doing the thing. This appears to be written that Vlad burns the counter - is he using it then?

looks like this guy alone requires a TON of clarifications

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > > > Pascal wrote: > > EDIT: If we had a card such as: > > "Requires a Sabbat vampire. > > Put this card in play. Any Camarilla vampire can enter combat with a Sabbat vampire as a +1 stealth action." > > Vlad couldn't use it to enter combat with anyone, as the card requires a Sabbat vampire and doesn't grant anything to Sabbat vampires. > > > How about Inquisitor or Archon? > > Requires a ready archbishop, cardinal or regent. > ... Any Sabbat vampire may call a referendum to burn this card as a +1 stealth political action. > > Requires a prince or justicar. > ...Any Camarilla vampire can call a referendum to burn this card as a +1 stealth political action. > He can burn these cards with the built-in referendums. > jamesatzephyr wrote: > Also, what happens if Vlad plays Anarch Secession? Can he choose to be a Prince/Archbishop of somewhere for the purposes of playing the card, and thus become the Baron of somewhere? > > +1 stealth action. Requires a ready, non-anarch, titled vampire. > ...If he or she had a city title, put this card on him or her as a title card to represent the title of baron of the same city. > Yes. > jamesatzephyr wrote: > Does Abbot's in-play effect count as using the card? > > +1 stealth action. Requires a Sabbat vampire. > Put this card on this acting Sabbat vampire and untap him or her. This Sabbat vampire gets +1 intercept against actions directed at his or her controller. > Yes. > jamesatzephyr wrote: > Can he use an in-play Under Siege? > > +1 stealth action. Unique. Requires a titled Sabbat vampire. > Put this card in play with 3 counters. Once each action, a Sabbat vampire you control can burn 1 counter from this card to untap and attempt to block with +1 intercept, even if intercept is not yet needed. > > Note that Under Siege works differently to - say - Pentex(tm) Loves You (Which wouldn't work for Vlad anyhow), where that sort of card definitely has the Methuselah doing the thing. This appears to be written that Vlad burns the counter - is he using it then? > Yes, he can use an in-play Under Siege of his controller.

So just to clarify on the previous rulings. 1) in anarch secession Vlad can basically play it and become the baron of any city the meth chose? Even something not written on a card like Uganda? 2) he can play and get the +1 intercept of Abbot? 3) he can play and later on burn counters for under siege to gain +1 intercept?

So does that mean he can also play Pentex loves you and get +1 bleed from it? How about equipment? Would he gain the full benefits of say Kduvas mask, erebus mask and sword of judgement? Im kinda confused and would like to know the explanation for the answer to these questions.

> blackday wrote: > So does that mean he can also play Pentex loves you and get +1 bleed from it? > No. Pentex(tm) Loves You doesn't require a title or sect. This is similar to the Powerbase New York ruling. > blackday wrote: > Would he gain the full benefits of say Kduvas mask, > Yes, that would fit with the Abbot ruling. It requires a sect to play, and requires the same sect to benefit from its in-play effect. Requires a ready Laibon. This Laibon gets +1 bleed and 2 additional votes. Reaction cards that require Auspex [aus] cost an additional blood while this Laibon is acting. > blackday wrote: > erebus mask > Erebus Mask doesn't require a sect or title. Vlad cannot play it, nor benefit from it when it's in play. (Unless he actually becomes a Harbinger somehow.) Requires: Harbinger of Skulls The Harbinger of Skulls with this equipment gets +1 stealth. It does not even implicitly require a sect to play, because the relevant Harbinger of Skulls could be of any sect - Camarilla, Laibon, Independent, Sabbat, or any other sect that might be invented. > blackday wrote: > sword of judgement? > Sword of Judgment doesn't require a sect or title. Vlad cannot play it, nor benefit from it when it's in play. Requires: Brujah antitribu. Only usable by Brujah antitribu. > blackday wrote: > Im kinda confused and would like to know the explanation for the answer to these questions. > Nothing on Vlad's card text says he can meet a clan requirement, so he doesn't. If the card requires a sect or title, he can meet the requirement to play it, if he himself plays it. e.g. Parity Shift, Kduva's Mask, Legacy of Power. If a card is played by a Methuselah but not Vlad himself (e.g. master cards with a sect or title requirement), Vlad's cannot be used to meet those requirements. e.g. a vanilla Vlad cannot be used to play Temptation of Greater Power, because he doesn't play it himself, so it doesn't see him as a Justicar. If a card requires a sect or title to play (whether minion or master), Vlad can use the card once it's in play as if he met the requirements of the in-play effects, if they're compatible. This is the "call a referendum to burn Purchase Pact" ruling. Purchase Pact requires a title to play, therefore once it's in play Vlad can "use cards requiring a title or a sect as if he had that title or were of that sect". So he can call the referendum to burn it - though he can't be used to meet the requirement to play Purchase Pact in the first place. It would also apply to, say, Powerbase Tshwane - you can't use him to play it, but since it does require a sect, he can use the built-in action to stealt it (which requires the same sect). If a card doesn't require a sect or title to play, but has an in-play effect based on a particular sect or title, Vlad can't use that in-play effect. This is the Powerbase New York ruling. It would also apply to, say, Kaymakli Fragment's Sabbat level which has no requirement but has an in-play effect based on sect: Requires: - This Sabbat vampire may allow you to draw 5 cards from your library as an action (discard afterward).

Thanks, for clearing that up.

So with the anarch secession ruled by Pascal mean Vlad can play one and become a baron of any city? Even a made up one?

> blackday wrote: > So with the anarch secession ruled by Pascal mean Vlad can play one and become a baron of any city? Even a made up one? > Seems so. There's no list of 'allowed' cities anywhere in the game's rules.

Cool.

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > > > blackday wrote: > > So with the anarch secession ruled by Pascal mean Vlad can play one and become a baron of any city? Even a made up one? > > > Seems so. There's no list of 'allowed' cities anywhere in the game's rules. > Correct.

Just so i can explain why Vlad's ability is able to use the kduva mask and the abbot ability,was because that his ability read he may play and use any card that requires a sect/title? Sorry if im asking about it again. Just wanted to be sure of the reason behind it.

Also was thinking for vote vlad deck he could play a political card and play both closed session and private audience right? Effectively preventing everybody else from voting.

> blackday wrote: > Just so i can explain why Vlad's ability is able to use the kduva mask and the abbot ability,was because that his ability read he may play and use any card that requires a sect/title? > First of all, does the card require a sect and/or title? If not, Vlad's special isn't relevant at all. Then: if Vlad plays it (e.g. plays Parity Shift, plays War Party), the card sees him as meeting the requirement, for the usual play, resolution, and lingering effect. (This is how most other cards that let you play things "as if" something else work.) However, if a card requires a sect and/or title, Vlad can also use it when it's in play as if he had the sect and/or title. So: Abbot +1 stealth action. Requires a Sabbat vampire. Put this card on this acting Sabbat vampire and untap him or her. This Sabbat vampire gets +1 intercept against actions directed at his or her controller. As a minion card played by Vlad that requires a sect and/or title, Vlad can play the card on himself, meeting the requirements using his special. Because the card requires a Sabbat vampire, Vlad can benefit from it as if he were a Sabbat vampire. Legacy of Pander Political Action Requires a Sabbat vampire. If this referendum is successful, put this card in play. Each non-titled Pander has 1 vote. Any Sabbat vampire may call a referendum to burn this card as a +1 stealth political action. Similarly, Vlad can play LoP as if he met the requirements, using his special. Because it requires a Sabbat vampire to play, he may also use the in-play "call a referendum" effect as if he were a Sabbat vampire, using his special. Purchase Pact, Master Requires a ready archbishop, priscus, cardinal or regent. Put this card into play. When a Sabbat vampire you control is in combat with another Sabbat vampire, you may tap this card before range is determined to end combat. Any titled Sabbat vampire may call a referendum to burn this card as a +1 stealth political action. Purchase Pact is a master card, so Vlad doesn't play it. So for the purposes of playing Purchase Pact, Vlad's special is irrelevant. However, when a Purchase Pact is in play (yours or anyone else's), it is still a card that requires a title (from the first line). The in-play "call a referendum" effect is something that Vlad does, and since the card requires a title and/or sect, Vlad can use the in-play effect as if he had that title and/or sect. (The "tap this card" effect is used by the Methuselah, not Vlad.) Powerbase: New York Master: unique location. Requires: nothing. As a master phase action, you may burn 1 pool to move 3 blood counters from the blood bank to this card or move 1 blood counter from this card to your pool. Any Sabbat vampire controlled by another Methuselah can take a action to move all the blood on the 'base to his or her controller's blood pool. Powerbase: New York does not require a sect or title, therefore Vlad's special is irrelevant when playing it. The in-play effect requires a Sabbat vampire. However, Vlad can only use cards "as if" he had the sect and/or title if the card requires the sect and/or title. Since PB:NY doesn't require a Sabbat vampire to play it, Vlad can't use it as if he were a Sabbat vampire.

Thanks for the explanation and detailed examples. Regarding the closed session and private audience being played, am i right in the assumption it would lock down all votes by all vamps (inc. Vlad)except the political card played.

> blackday wrote: > Regarding the closed session and private audience being played, am i right in the assumption it would lock down all votes by all vamps (inc. Vlad)except the political card played. > For clarity, the vote provided by the political action card isn't cast by a vampire. That goes to the Methuselah. [DTR 19950509] If you played Closed Session, then for its lingering effect, it will see Vlad as being a Sabbat Archbishop (or whatever title you chose). So it should allow him to vote. If you play Private Audience, similarly, it will see Vlad as being a Camarilla Prince (or whatever title you chose) for its lingering effect. So it should allow him to vote. The point about playing cards "as if" you met the requirements is that that card sees you as the impersonated requirements for play, resolution, and lingering effect. (But not effects that derive from the card going in play for most vampires - Vlad is different here.) Votes can still be cast by Methuselahs, such as burning a political action card from hand, burning the Edge, tapping Ventrue HQ etc. Note that there are earlier rulings to the contrary, but the "lingering effect" element of playing a card "as if" you were something was overturned in the 2007 RTR . And while it was originally phrased as affected allies, it was very quickly clarified to affect other "play as if" with a lingering effect, such as Mata Hari + Raking Talons - RT sees Mata as a Gargoyle for its lingering effect, giving her agg hand damage, when previously it didn't.

Thank you for the clarifications.

Can Vlad target himself with Alastor? Marko, Prince of Helsinki

> a-e wrote: > Can Vlad target himself with Alastor? > Yes. When impersonating a sect-based title, you are implicitly also impersonating the sect. [LSJ 20050128] > > LSJ wrote: > > But she's still non-Camarilla as far as the Closed Session is > > concerned, because it doesn't require a Camarilla vampire, correct? > > It requires a Justicar, and therefore a Camarilla (since you cannot > be the former save that you are the latter). > So during the term setting part of resolution, Alastor sees Vlad as a Camarilla vampire, so he's a legal target for it. Merged Kemintiri can also Alastor herself.

Ok here is another funny one: Will of the Council [Action] Action +1 stealth action. Requires a ready primogen. Put this card on the acting primogen. During the referendum of a political action, this primogen can burn 1 blood to gain 1 vote. This primogen can burn this card to play a card that requires a prince as if he or she were a prince. This primogen can burn this card when a prince enters torpor to receive (and contest) the same title as that prince. A vampire can have only 1 Will of the Council. So Vlad can play the card and use the ability to burn a blood for a vote. The ability to play a card as a prince is of course superfluous for him, but what will happen when a prince enters torpor? Can Vlad use the card ability to receive and contest the title, and what title will he then receive? Will he become a Camarilla once he starts the contest?

> Borrelstein wrote: > what will happen when a prince enters torpor? Can Vlad use the card ability to receive and contest the title, and what title will he then receive? > Yes, he'll receive the title (there's a "but" coming up), and he'll receive the title that any normal Primogen would have received in that situation i.e. whatever the title on that Prince is. +1 stealth action. Requires a ready primogen. Put this card on the acting primogen. During the referendum of a political action, this primogen can burn 1 blood to gain 1 vote. This primogen can burn this card to play a card that requires a prince as if he or she were a prince. This primogen can burn this card when a prince enters torpor to receive (and contest) the same title as that prince. A vampire can have only 1 Will of the Council. The card requires a title, so his special is relevant. When he uses the burn clause, he uses the card as if he were a Camarilla Primogen. So he gets the title. Here comes the but... > Borrelstein wrote: > Will he become a Camarilla once he starts the contest? > No. Receiving a title doesn't make you the sect that title requires. Having a Camarilla title while being non-Camarilla means that his title goes inert - he receives no benefit from it. > Rulebook, wrote: > If a vampire with a title changes clans or sects to a clan or sect inappropriate for his title, he loses the benefit of the title until his clan or sect changes appropriately. If he receives a new title, or if his title is contested (see Contested Titles, sec. 4.2), he immediately yields the old title. > And since he's going to contest it with the Prince, he immediately yields it.

Thanks, that makes sense. Still a nice vote boosting permanent for Vlad if he really wants to take that angle

> Borrelstein wrote: > Still a nice vote boosting permanent for Vlad if he really wants to take that angle > Play Bloodbath instead. It's still not great, but it gives him a blood overall (1 cost, move 2 to him), and doesn't cost a blood for each vote he gets from it. Once it's in play, he doesn't have to use his special with it - he "can" use cards as a vampire with a sect or title, he doesn't have to. So the card in play can see him as the Independent, untitled vampire he is, and give him a vote.

Not sure if you can play Bloodbath on Vlad. Sure he can play the card but I think he needs to play it on another vampire, as he can fake Sabbat only for the sake of playing a card but he can not be the target (similar to the Regent situation), as being target is not the same as 'use'?

> Borrelstein wrote: > Not sure if you can play Bloodbath on Vlad. Sure he can play the card but I think he needs to play it on another vampire, as he can fake Sabbat only for the sake of playing a card but he can not be the target (similar to the Regent situation), as being target is not the same as 'use'? > When he plays it, he plays it as a titled Sabbat vampire (whichever of the titles you pick from the card) - per the earlier Kemintiri ruling, the title implies the sect. So the card sees him as a Sabbat vampire for play and resolution purposes. Since he's seen as a Sabbat vampire, he's a legal target.

> Pascal wrote: > > > jamesatzephyr wrote: > > Purchase Pact is in play. Can Vlad Tepes call the +1 stealth political action to burn it? "Requires a ready archbishop, priscus, cardinal or regent. ... Any titled Sabbat vampire may call a referendum to burn this card as a +1 stealth political action." > > > Yes. > Can he burn it because the master itself has the requirement to play, or can he burn it because the action can only be taken by sabbat vampires? Just trying to fully understand the ruling and this is the only example of it I've found . Prince of Liverpool and UK NC

> Thalco wrote: > > > Pascal wrote: > > > > > jamesatzephyr wrote: > > > Purchase Pact is in play. Can Vlad Tepes call the +1 stealth political action to burn it? "Requires a ready archbishop, priscus, cardinal or regent. ... Any titled Sabbat vampire may call a referendum to burn this card as a +1 stealth political action." > > > > > Yes. > > > Can he burn it because the master itself has the requirement to play, or can he burn it because the action can only be taken by sabbat vampires? > > Just trying to fully understand the ruling and this is the only example of it I've found > Because of the requirement of the card, Vlad is seen as an archbishop, priscus, cardinal or regent by the card. So he can take the action that requires a Sabbat, since archbishop (for instance) implies Sabbat. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director