Again, just to put an idea out there.
Name: Grave whispers
Cardtype: Action (leading to combat)
Cost: None
Capacity: N/A
Discipline: Necromancy/Thanatosis
Card text
+1 stealth action.
Enter combat with a ready tapped minion controlled by another Methuselah. This acting minion gets an optional press in that combat.
As above, with an optional maneuver. If Samedi, not usable on a Nosferatu or a Giovanni.
As above, and add a counter to this card that may be used to pay towards this vampire's blood cost this combat.
[353 characters including spaces - any suggestions on whittling it down? Please read justification of card first].
Flavour text
None that I can think of - probably need to maximise card space! Any suggestions welcome.
Art notes
Comedy: Zombie learning on a gravestone talking to a Vampire, Zombie pointing over their shoulder with one hand and making a rude sign with their other.
Serious: An interview with a corpse, the Vampire making notes.
World of Darkness reference
No references, but building on similar action-combat cards.
How does this card address a compelling game need?
The idea is that the minion with this card has gathered intelligence through speaking with the dead (the enemies of the target minion) about where they are. This is why the target Vampire has to be tapped (has done something that spirits can tell other spirits etc). This knowledge allows the acting minion to be better prepared to ambush them. For , this information is where the target minion is and scoping out the location has given the acting minion the ability to maneuver. For , also time to box the target minion in by summoning non-combative Groaning Corpses or Wraiths or similar. gives the acting minion some vital clue (perhaps a 'grave secret', if you'll excuse the pun) that allows the minion to be more efficient in combat (hence the counter can be used to pay for or towards a combat discipline card, presumably Fortitude, Necromancy, Potence or Thanatosis). "Gain a blood" would be simpler and save card space, but this means its also effectively a hunt action and feels too unbalanced to me. EDIT: just realised that the basic version is the same as "Ambush", so swapped the press option to with the maneuver to .
This submission is also to build Samedi up to their martial hype. A "Nose of the hound" ( www.secretlibrary.info/index.php?lib=1039 ) for Vampires with Necromancy/Thanatosis mixed up with the Samedi card "Dirty Contract" ( www.secretlibrary.info/index.php?lib=1002 ) and a dash of Fatuus Mastery ( www.secretlibrary.info/index.php?lib=1418 ). Obviously useful for Giovanni and Samedi, not so useful for Harbingers (who usually have Auspex) although better than "Nose of the Hound" if part of a mixed Giovanni/Samedi crypt.
Created by
Chris Nelson.
> chrisn101 wrote:
> Again, just to put an idea out there.
>
> Name: Grave whispers
> Cardtype: Action (leading to combat)
> Cost: None
> Capacity: N/A
> Discipline: Necromancy/Thanatosis
>
> Card text
> +1 stealth action.
> Enter combat with a ready tapped minion controlled by another Methuselah. This acting minion gets an optional press in that combat.
> As above, with an optional maneuver. If Samedi, not usable on a Nosferatu or a Giovanni.
> As above, and add a counter to this card that may be used to pay towards this vampire's blood cost this combat.and this vampire can reduce the cost of a combat card he plays this combat by 1 blood.
>
> [353 characters including spaces - any suggestions on whittling it down? Please read justification of card first].
>
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
More accuratly:
Name: Grave Whispers
Cardtype: Action
Discipline: Necromancy/Thanatosis
+1 stealth action.
[nec] Enter combat with a tapped minion. This acting vampire gets 1 optional press in that combat.
[thn] As [nec] above, with 1 optional maneuver in that combat.
[THN] As [thn] above, and once this combat, this vampire can reduce the cost to play a combat card by 1 blood.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Thank you both for your input.
Hmm. I don't own any Salubri/Valeren cards (swapped them years ago) and I don't think I was aware of "Sense Death", but I am pretty sure a member of our play group played such a deck a while ago. I didn't last long enough for my minions to interact with his minions, so maybe the card was played after I left the table but was in earshot and it's been bubbling away in my subconscious since.
Sense Death
+1 stealth action.
Enter combat with a younger vampire.
Enter combat with any minion. This acting vampire gets an optional press during this combat.
As above, and this acting vampire gets an optional maneuver during this combat.
So "Sense Death" can enter combat with any minion at basic , whereas I've suggested "tapped minions only" because of the reasoning behind the card.
What would be suggestions to balance this proposed card to make it more level with "Sense Death"? Leave text as is, up the discipline requirements slightly and add back "non-Giovanni, non-Nosferatu" clause? Making it require both disciplines makes sense. How's this?
[nec] Enter combat with a tapped minion. This acting vampire gets 1 optional press in that combat.
[thn] [nec] As [nec] above, with 1 optional maneuver in that combat.
[THN] [nec] As [thn] [nec] above, and once this combat, this vampire can reduce the cost to play a combat card by 1 blood.
Not that I was designing it for any particular Samedi, but quite a few have basic Necromancy, and of course there's Lisandro Giovanni and Unre (Harbingers) too.
Compelling game need: why do Samedi need a stealthy rush card? How do you think it should be used? Does it enable a new deck? How does it fit into existing archetypical decks? Does it pose an interesting decision in deck building? How would it affect a tournament metagame? Casual metagame?
Hi Dorrinal.
Firstly: great to see someone else has played Phantasy Star 4. Happy days.
Secret Library seems to be down so apologies for a lack of links.
Why do Samedi need it?
I would contend that "Dirty Contract" is not a good card, and would be better served by an Samedi rush card. If we compare "Haven uncovered" with "Dirty contract", the issue is rather obvious.
Haven uncovered
Master.
Put this card on a ready vampire. Any minion not controlled by that vampire's controller may enter combat with that vampire as a +1 stealth action. That vampire can burn this card as a +1 stealth action.
Dirty contract
Master: contract.
Put this card on a minion and choose a Samedi in play. The chosen Samedi can enter combat with the minion with this card as a +1 stealth action unless they are controlled by the same Methuselah. This card cannot be placed on a Nosferatu or a Giovanni.
(OK, Dirty Contract can't be burned, but you can Summon Soul to shuffle burnt "Haven uncovered"s back into your library).
I don't know if there were planned cards that would have made use of the Samedi "Master: contract" aspect (presumably however it may have been similar to the Assamites), but the Stiffs aren't living up to the claim that "The Samedi are also notorious assassins and mercenaries" ( whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Samedi ). This suggested action card doesn't have the permanency of the Master, but it has been designed to patch up the supposed Samedi reputation.
How could it be used?
Samedi have Fortitude for staying power - the problem is usually getting the chance to hit the opponent, hence the maneuver and press is useful. It would give the Samedi more chance of playing Compress (agg hand strike), Creeping infection (put card onto opponent, burn that card later to make action unblockable by that minion), or Putrification (hit for one damage, opposing minion has -1 stealth and takes a damage when they strike or take an action, burn instead of untapping). So could either be used as a combat threat, take an action to make that Vampires' bleed next turn unblockable, or lower the minions' stealth (hopefully played on a minion of your predators') so you can try and intercept them.
Does it enable a new/archetypal deck?
Would make a Samedi assassin deck viable - they're supposed to be able to talk to spirits and raise the dead, and rather than develop detailed intel by interrogating them, they simply "Bums Rush" or use "Haven Uncovered"?.
As this card would increase the Samedi's chances of inflicting damage in combat, Transfusion (costs a blood, put a counter on the opposing minion, burn three to take control of that minion) is also viable, leading to a new Samedi Corruption deck idea.
Deck building decisions
Covered this in How could it be used? Given the library limit, will it be general, or prioritise attack against all, lowering the stealth of your predator, or getting that bleed for one or two through (and then your prey using a reduce bleed card...). All quite costly so how do you ensure the Samedi are well fed? Also, because it's an action card rather than a permanent(ish) Master card, what's the ratio of these to other Thanatosis/Fortitude combat cards, or stealth/weaponry/bleed increase?
Tournament/casual metagame
Good question, I don't know how it'd affect a tournament game. Casual game, I can only go by my experience in playgroup: Samedi have a chance against Combat munchkins (at the moment it's kinda hope-I-have-a-gun when Jack Dawson comes out, followed by advancing him, then my predator starts thinking carefully). Maybe I'm just an awful deck designer though.
> chrisn101 wrote:
> [nec] Enter combat with a tapped minion. This acting vampire gets 1 optional press in that combat.
> [thn] [nec] As [nec] above, with 1 optional maneuver in that combat.
> [THN] [nec] As [thn] [nec] above, and once this combat, this vampire can reduce the cost to play a combat card by 1 blood.
>
I don't think going to Thn+Nec is that helpful or necessary. Thanatosis is fairly exclusive already, and it knocks out around 6 Samedi. However, if you were to want to do something to make it more exclusive to the Samedi, consider Obf+Than instead. That include 17 of the 18 Samedi, and Smallpox Griet. The only Samedi with no Obfuscate is Angel Chavarria, a 3 cap with THAN. Then change the card name to fit Than+Obf a little better, but that's obviously just fluff.
Also, assuming that this is still a +1 stealth action, I'd consider moving that to the basic Thanatosis level (and obviously inherited by the superior Thanatosis level). I think the Necromancy version is probably a little better than I'd care for on a fallback level of a Bloodlines card - stealthy rushes are quite nice. So the Than (or Than+Nec or Than+Obf) level would look something like:
As above, but at +1 stealth with an optional maneuver in that combat.
chrisn101, great to see someone recognize the picture!
Thanks for the insight. Let me probe a little more.
What is the problem with Samedi combat?
Why is a Samedi rush deck good / not good?
Can you make a good Samedi rush deck without this card (say with Bum's Rush)?
Thanks Jamesatzephyr,
I see your point and agree that obfuscate makes sense (explains the stealth a bit better, and maneuver a la " Swallowed by the night ". If Thanatosis rather than Thanatosis-Necromancy is considered satisfactory enough in gathering Underworld intel, then essentially still works as intended. I'm just happy the idea seems to have generated some buzz
"Grave whisperings"/"Grave whisper" as a title can still work - a whisper is doing something quietly, obfuscatory. The artwork would have to change (map with various ideas drawn on it next to some ritualistic equipment (black candles, human skull etc) to evidence some sort of necromantic communication maybe? Assume there's other cards with that sort of thing. I guess the obvious pun for the name is "Grave peril" but would be a bit of an anticlimax if the minion using it manages to get to close-range and strikes ... only for the opposing minion to play a "Strike: Combat Ends" card.
If I've understood you right, card text would look more like the following?
Enter combat with a tapped minion. This acting vampire gets 1 optional press in that combat.
As above, but at +1 stealth with an optional maneuver in that combat.
As above, and once this combat, this vampire can reduce the cost to play a combat card by 1 blood.
Cheers,
Chris.
Apologies Dorrinal, missed your post while responding to Jamesatzephyr.
What is the problem with Samedi combat?
Well, as I said in earlier posts, the VTES Samedi don't feel like they represent the VTM Samedi. Their Thanatosis discipline is mostly hand-strike based, so most of the time its an issue trying to catch up with the opposing minion (who go and stay at long if they don't S:CE, but that might just be my play group experience.
Manoeuvres using Thanatosis are possible: either play Rigor Mortis (well cancel the opposing minions maneuver when they try to go to long), or to play Dust to Dust , which declares your strike as a dodge and is clearly meant as more of a "retreat" card. Of course you can use Obfuscate or Fortitude cards for manoeuvres as well (probably more likely Unflinching Persistence really), but as I've said earlier, it seems to me that Samedi could get really good intel through their connections with the dead (prior victims of the opposing minion maybe?) that would allow them to fulfil 'contracts' far better than "Bum's Rush" or "Dirty Contract" currently enables them to do. I've proposed this to give the clan some flavour.
Why is a Samedi rush deck good / not good?
As I said, I'm just putting the idea out here as a suggestion for improving the targeted offence capabilities of a clan of supposed assassins and mercenaries. Even if this idea doesn't come to much when/if a future bloodlines expansion is considered, I hope that it's stimulating future ideas about improving the Samedi clan If not a Samedi rush card, at least some way of improving Dirty Contract (e.g. you gain a pool if you knock the targeted minion into Torpor, but I digress). Having a better chance of hitting an opponent minion at close range (which reminds me, Groaning Corpses is close-range only as well!) makes most other Thanatosis combat cards usable.
Interestingly I've just found these a discussion here on a Samedi deck ( targeted Transfusion ). The problem, as mentioned in the thread, is that Transfusion is an action modifier, so its use is very limited and more often associated with a rush action to a) target the minion and b) the rush card includes a manoeuvre to increase the chances of being able to use the card (e.g. hand/melee or Thanatosis strike card / "Groaning Corpses" at close to inflict damage, unless minion has managed to equip with gun at which point ranged damage is obviously possible).
Can you make a good Samedi rush deck without this card (say with Bum's Rush)?
Someone has: Samedi Assassins and Unre . They eschew "Dirty Contracts" in favour of "Bums Rush" for obvious reasons. I'm not saying that there's an issue with using a general card like "Bums Rush", just that "Dirty Contract" isn't great and a clan-specific(ish) card could implement that function far better and reference the clan lore, reputation and game 'world'. I've literally just discovered Shakar: the Hunt and Priority Contract , so clearly there's been some major revisions to contracts in recent years that hasn't got around to the Samedi.
Cheers,
Chris.
Have had the benefit of a night's reflection about this card: originally I thought it would be more benefits-of-gathering-intel-to-ambush (as Samedi childer are chosen for mental/physical traits), but as Jamesatzephyr has pointed out, the fact that Samedi have Obfuscate made much more sense for this type of card: in a LARP scenario I guess it's the equivalent of using "Fade from the Mind's Eye" to hit another character in a surprise attack. Surprisingly, Obfuscate VTES cards don't seem to represent that idea (which I guess mechanically is more 'set range'). Maybe it should be more along the lines of an anti-"Cold Aura"?
Cold Aura
[1 Blood]
Only usable before range is determined. Set the range for this round to long.
As above, with an optional press, only usable to end combat.
Card idea v4
[1 Blood seems to be standard]
Only usable before range is determined. Set the range for this round to close.
As above, with an optional press.
As above, and once this combat, this vampire can reduce the cost to play a combat card by 1 blood. [Does this make sense any more though?]
> chrisn101 wrote:
> I guess it's the equivalent of using "Fade from the Mind's Eye" to hit another character in a surprise attack. Surprisingly, Obfuscate VTES cards don't seem to represent that idea (which I guess mechanically is more 'set range'). Maybe it should be more along the lines of an anti-"Cold Aura"?
>
Behind You! and Hidden Lurker are sort of the common or garden ambush effects. Behind You! is very playable, if you're doing combat with an Obfuscate-y clan (e.g. Nosferatu). Hidden Lurker isn't unplayable, though you can only really use it sparingly - people have to block you before you can play it.
Samedi can kinda set range with Olid Loa , but only to long range. Potentially interesting option if you were using, say, guns, but not a super-compelling deck.
True, true. I like the concept of Olid Loa. Quite a funny idea that there is a disgusting smell that causes the opposing minion to keep its distance and end combat as soon as possible, but its never found its way into a deck. It seems to be another "retreat" type card (hoping that the opposing minion doesn't have ranged damage) though, and Thanatosis strikes are close range.
(Hmmm. That said, wonder if a Mark V and Olid Loa with Potence backup is a viable deck... one for the deck clinic at the weekend.)
Just realised the alternative card text suggestion would need to say "Only usable when the acting minion has entered combat with a minion as a action" (Rush/Haven Uncovered, Dirty Contract) for the background explanation to still make sense.