Speed Demon
Cardtype: Action Modifier/Reaction
Discipline: Celerity
Cost: 1 blood
[cel] [REACTION] Only usable by a tapped vampire. This vampire untaps and attempts to block.
[CEL] [ACTION MODIFIER] Tapped minions cannot block this action.
A new card that can help !Gangrel (Form of Mist + Speed Demon), tap'n'bleed with celerity (Toreador?). The blood cost is very important not to make the card too cheesy in tap'n'bleed decks (considering that Form of Mist costs 1 blood and Majesty costs 1 blood to, as well a Freak Drive).
I made the "no block" effect the superior to limit it more (is it too much?) Inferior wake for 1 blood is in-line with Eluding the Arms of Morpheus.
(Just to make it clear: superior effect negates the effect of "wake" cards, and can be used after the reacting minion has played a wake, and inferior is not a "wake" effect and can't be negated by itself ).
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
> Speed Demon
> Cardtype: Action Modifier/Reaction
> Discipline: Celerity
> Cost: 1 blood
> [cel] [REACTION] Only usable by a tapped vampire. This vampire untaps and attempts to block.
> [CEL] [ACTION MODIFIER] Tapped minions cannot block this action.
>
> A new card that can help !Gangrel (Form of Mist + Speed Demon), tap'n'bleed with celerity (Toreador?). The blood cost is very important not to make the card too cheesy in tap'n'bleed decks (considering that Form of Mist costs 1 blood and Majesty costs 1 blood to, as well a Freak Drive).
> I made the "no block" effect the superior to limit it more (is it too much?) Inferior wake for 1 blood is in-line with Eluding the Arms of Morpheus.
>
> (Just to make it clear: superior effect negates the effect of "wake" cards, and can be used after the reacting minion has played a wake, and inferior is not a "wake" effect and can't be negated by itself ).
>
It enables Zoe, Victoria, Dancin Dana, Lucien, Ruth McGinley, adv Quentin King, Lord Fiana, santaleois, and Unmada to do madness network shinannigans with untapping and being unable (or unwillig to play intercept) to block.
It hoses No Secrets, and makes you waste wake, eyes of argus, on the Q, eluding, forced awake, etc.
It may be less than balanced to make people play awake they cant use, since Brujah and Torries are both capable of large bleeds. Nobody will care that it burns no secrets, im guessing.....
> ReverendRevolver wrote:
> Nobody will care that it burns no secrets, im guessing.....
>
Killing No Secrets is actually a really good thing. Or banning it.
Regarding this card, I think that it could work. I hate to see more celerity cards that cost blood, but I can see why it would be important here. Compared to Eluding the Arms of Morpheus it is a tie at basic, gives more utility at CEL. Comparing to Black Sunrise is interesting. Celerity is much more common and there is generally less access to stealth (Read: Obfuscate). Torries or Brujah would most likely be tap and bleeding with this.
Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one.
-Friedrich Nietzsche
brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/
> brandonsantacruz wrote:
>
> > ReverendRevolver wrote:
> > Nobody will care that it burns no secrets, im guessing.....
> >
> Killing No Secrets is actually a really good thing. Or banning it.
>
> Regarding this card, I think that it could work. I hate to see more celerity cards that cost blood, but I can see why it would be important here. Compared to Eluding the Arms of Morpheus it is a tie at basic, gives more utility at CEL. Comparing to Black Sunrise is interesting. Celerity is much more common and there is generally less access to stealth (Read: Obfuscate). Torries or Brujah would most likely be tap and bleeding with this.
>
No Secrets isnt "Ban Me!" Level of problematic, but as I said, it being toned down isnt a problem. But, two (i guess 4, technically) clans with Cel Pre in clan being able to tap and bleed for 5-6 and make all common playable wakes but StSW and second trad unusable after they are played is a bit much. Seduction timing wpuld fix this, but not make it burn no secrets. Still seems less problematic than essentially a block fails for everyone tapped.
> Ankha wrote:
> [CEL] [ACTION MODIFIER] Tapped minions cannot block this action.
>
This text doesn't actually achieve what you want it to do. See the original text on The Sleeping Mind, where this text was regarded as re-stating the basic rule and didn't actually change anything. [LSJ 20010110]
However, assuming it were reworded to do what you want...
Tap and Bleed would probably receive a fairly significant shot in the arm. Misdirection and Anarch Troublemaker are easily played to tap out vampires. Anarch Troublemaker can be played well in advance and held for later. Have an Anarch Troublemaker in play already and then lunge with Pentex Subversion/Misdirection and this and you can be potentially doing a lot of damage.
Mind Numb (1 blood) combos fairly well with this, because it can not only tap a vampire this turn, but it can keep them tapped next turn, and though it would require CEL/PRE, that's not exactly a tricky combination to find on midcaps - and you may well want the PRE for some bleed or vote payload. Distraction (1 blood) is less long-lasting but combos similarly. Potentially combos well with Zephyr (free) as a way to try to draw out blocks, then go in for something killer.
> Ankha wrote:
> (Just to make it clear: superior effect negates the effect of "wake" cards, and can be used after the reacting minion has played a wake, and inferior is not a "wake" effect and can't be negated by itself ).
>
That's the part that concerns me most. It's not just negating a Wake. It could easily be negating a Wake followed by an Eagle Sight followed by a Precognition followed by a Spirit's Touch. Getting essentially a "block fails" effect and precluding other tapped vampires from waking to block seems quite potent, compared to Call of the Hungry Dead or Elder Impersonation. If it was an up-front "Play when the action is announced", I'd have fewer concerns.
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> > [CEL] [ACTION MODIFIER] Tapped minions cannot block this action.
> >
> This text doesn't actually achieve what you want it to do. See the original text on The Sleeping Mind, where this text was regarded as re-stating the basic rule and didn't actually change anything. [LSJ 20010110]
>
> However, assuming it were reworded to do what you want...
>
That's not how I see it (aka LSJ can be wrong too ). There are three effects:
1/ rulebook: "Who May Attempt to Block: If the action targets one or more other Methuselahs (or things controlled by other Methuselahs), then the action is called directed, and only the Methuselahs who are targeted (or control the targets) may use their ready untapped minions to attempt to block the action (going clockwise from the acting Methuselah, as usual). "
2/ wake effect: "This reacting minion can play reaction cards and attempt to block as though untapped until the current action is concluded."
3/ Speed Demon effect: "Tapped minions cannot block this action"
So 2/ adds the reacting minion to the set of minions eligible to block defined by 1/
3/ on the other hand actively forbids tapped minions from blocking.
As always, "cannot" effects prevail on "can" effects (that's why a tapped minion under pentex can't play a Second Tradition for instance).
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
> Tap and Bleed would probably receive a fairly significant shot in the arm. Misdirection and Anarch Troublemaker are easily played to tap out vampires. Anarch Troublemaker can be played well in advance and held for later. Have an Anarch Troublemaker in play already and then lunge with Pentex Subversion/Misdirection and this and you can be potentially doing a lot of damage.
>
Probably, but Celerity isn't a bleed discipline. It would be used in that case as a support discipline, meaning youre playing dom+ CEL vampires for instance (which is more difficult). The discipline requirement makes it more balanced.
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
> Mind Numb (1 blood) combos fairly well with this, because it can not only tap a vampire this turn, but it can keep them tapped next turn, and though it would require CEL/PRE, that's not exactly a tricky combination to find on midcaps - and you may well want the PRE for some bleed or vote payload. Distraction (1 blood) is less long-lasting but combos similarly. Potentially combos well with Zephyr (free) as a way to try to draw out blocks, then go in for something killer.
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> > (Just to make it clear: superior effect negates the effect of "wake" cards, and can be used after the reacting minion has played a wake, and inferior is not a "wake" effect and can't be negated by itself ).
> >
> That's the part that concerns me most. It's not just negating a Wake. It could easily be negating a Wake followed by an Eagle Sight followed by a Precognition followed by a Spirit's Touch. Getting essentially a "block fails" effect and precluding other tapped vampires from waking to block seems quite potent, compared to Call of the Hungry Dead or Elder Impersonation. If it was an up-front "Play when the action is announced", I'd have fewer concerns.
>
Playing it "as the action is announced" on the other hand would be harsh if you intend to play it with Form of Mist. But I understand it may be too strong if it negates the intercept the player has generated after the wake.
So maybe:
[CEL] [ACTION MODIFIER] Cancel a reacting card that allows to block as if untapped as it is played; its cost is not paid. The reacting minion can't play other reaction cards this action.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> > That's not how I see it
> >
> Good for you. You're still, however, wrong.
>
Did God speak? Is that all? There's no need to find whether there's a flaw in my reasoning, right?
It's not that simple because Pascal thinks I'm right. But let's consider the whole thing again (it's a bit clearer for me too):
Subject 1) Was the text on Sleeping Mind a reminder text? Does it matter?
LSJ says "It was redundant - the basic rules provide that functionality". So he considered it as a reminder text and therefore removed it. It also means he considered that the designer intend wasn't to prevent from blocking under a "wake" effect, or that he didn't care altering its effect.
Does it matter? Yes. A rule stated in a cardtext (that is not a reminder) is not the same as a rule stated in the rulebook because it's not overriden the same way.
For instance, if rulebook says "A cannot do B" and a cardtext says "A can do B", cardtext takes precedence (1.4 "Golden rule of card"). Now if two cards effects are at odds with one another, the "cannot" effect takes precedence (I have to find the reference to this to be complete.)
Subject 2) To which extend is a minion under a wake effect considered as being untapped or not for purpose of blocking and playing reaction cards?
This is the core of the subject. Is "Speed Demon" seeing tapped minions under a wake effect as tapped?
Wake states: "This reacting minion can play reaction cards and attempt to block as though (or as if) untapped until the current action is concluded." (both form exist, they are equivalent).
Speed Demon (or Sleeping Mind in the old time ) states "Tapped minions cannot block this action".
I'll consider Wake's second effect first, "This reacting minion can attempt to block as though untapped". What is does is to widen the set of eligible minions that can block. (rule 6.2.2.1 "Who May Attempt to Block").
Could we also say that for blocking purpose, he is globally considered untapped, and therefore Speed Demon doesn't see it as a "tapped" minion?
To infirme this, let's consider wake's first effect.
Wake's first effect supersedes the rulebook rule 1.6.3.6 "A ready untapped minion can play a reaction card in response...". As previously, can we consider that for all the purpose of resolving the reaction card, he is considered untapped?
If so, it would mean that it would be possible to play a reaction card that says "tap to..." with a tapped minion (eg. Babble). Which is currently not the case (source: LSJ ).
So it would be contradictory: Babble doesn't see the reacting minion as untapped, but Speed Demon would?
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
PS: for clarification, Pascal says that wake effects should read "{even though} tapped" instead of "{as if} untapped".
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > jamesatzephyr wrote:
> >
> > > Ankha wrote:
> > > That's not how I see it
> > >
> > >
> > Good for you. You're still, however, wrong.
> >
> Did God speak?
>
Look, you put your ideas up in a public forum for criticism. I point out with a valid ruling that what you want won't work that way. You decide that how you see it is more valid than, you know, an actual ruling, and then pout and decide your opinion is more important. A ruling has been made on the same wording. It tells you you are wrong. If you believe you are not wrong, you are the one who thinks he speaks with the voice of God.
I give up. Why bother spending an hour writting a full reasoning with sources and an explicit though process?
I was hoping for something like "no, look, your premise A is wrong" or "hmm, indeed there's something weird". Or no answer at all if you don't have time after all.
What pities me is that you do have time to drop by, write a few authoritative unargumented lines (thus my reference to God) and jump on a troll-bait (the same reference to God). I'm certain it doesn't make the forum a better place.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> >
> > > jamesatzephyr wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Ankha wrote:
> > > > That's not how I see it
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Good for you. You're still, however, wrong.
> > >
> > Did God speak?
> >
> Look, you put your ideas up in a public forum for criticism. I point out with a valid ruling that what you want won't work that way. You decide that how you see it is more valid than, you know, an actual ruling, and then pout and decide your opinion is more important. A ruling has been made on the same wording. It tells you you are wrong. If you believe you are not wrong, you are the one who thinks he speaks with the voice of God.
>
LSJ was not infallible, and reversed his own rulings when presented with sufficient information. If you'd like to discuss the merits of the information Ankha has presented, go ahead. If you'd like to ignore them, go ahead. If you're just here to shit-talk, then leave.