[Submission] Keeper of Tradition (Camarilla reward for playing Traditions)

Name: Keeper of Tradition Cardtype: Action +1 stealth action. Requires a ready prince or justicar. Remove from your ash heap 3 different tradition cards that this vampire has played. This Camarilla vampire gets +2 bleed and +2 vote. Burn this card if this vampire changes sect. The hard part is keeping track of who played what. Requiring to play this card first would make it much weaker. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Why do you think it would be weaker ? Something along the line of : When a tradition card played by this vampire would go to the ash heap, put it on this card instead. When there is 3 different traditions on it, this camarilla vampire has +2 bleed and +2 vote.

I would add unique, just in case.

> Ankha wrote: > Name: Keeper of Tradition > Cardtype: Action > +1 stealth action. Requires a ready prince or justicar. > Remove from your ash heap 3 different tradition cards that this vampire has played. This Camarilla vampire gets +2 bleed and +2 vote. Burn this card if this vampire changes sect. > Could you explain the game need? Second Tradition is already excellent. Third Tradition is very good, but they can be fragile and get burned. (Also, you could probably do that yourself using, say, Fortitude as your skill card for appropriate action modifiers, if you wanted.) Playing them is their own reward. I'm not sure that decks using those cards really need 2 extra votes and 2 extra bleed by popping a couple of Fourth or Fifth Tradition in them. First Tradition is potentially very good indeed, but needs a bit more thinking about. Such a deck could probably combine First and Second fairly easily, and then get a fairly hefty reward by bringing in a relatively easy to play Fourth or Fifth. (Sixth Tradition is generally terrible. In most situations, you'd much rather play Carlton because he's much, much less corner case, even with his cost.) > Ankha wrote: > The hard part is keeping track of who played what. Requiring to play this card first would make it much weaker. > More problematically, Third Tradition goes in play. If you have more than one breeder, tracking which progeny is which for when they get burned could be quite cumbersome. > Timo wrote: > Why do you think it would be weaker ? > Five of the six traditions are actions, meaning that you give players a significant heads-up about which actions to block etc. If both Constanza and Donal are playing Traditions, which one of them do you block in preference? Of course, if you're having to keep track anyway, that may well give them that heads up. Of course, forcing it to come after also makes it annoying in that you may well have it jamming your hand. You could phrase it as "Put this card on this vampire. During your discard phase, the Prince or Justicar with this card may burn it and three traditions..." or something like that, if you wanted.

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > > > Timo wrote: > > Why do you think it would be weaker ? > > > Five of the six traditions are actions, meaning that you give players a significant heads-up about which actions to block etc. If both Constanza and Donal are playing Traditions, which one of them do you block in preference? Of course, if you're having to keep track anyway, that may well give them that heads up. > If knowing who to block is somehing you are wory about, just block the "KoT" action ?

> Timo wrote: > > > jamesatzephyr wrote: > > > > > Timo wrote: > > > Why do you think it would be weaker ? > > > > > > > > Five of the six traditions are actions, meaning that you give players a significant heads-up about which actions to block etc. If both Constanza and Donal are playing Traditions, which one of them do you block in preference? Of course, if you're having to keep track anyway, that may well give them that heads up. > > > If knowing who to block is somehing you are wory about, just block the "KoT" action ? > Having many opportunities to block may give you more chance of blocking than just one critical action. Not all decks can summon a large amount of intercept on command, when - say - an Obfuscate-driven Prince deck holds a Lost in Crowds and a Forgotten Labyrinth for that crucial moment. Having the option of blocking that or blocking the less-likely-to-be-played-in-large-numbers Fourth or Fifth Traditions may give you a better chance of doing so. You also get the opportunity to DI the KoT or the Tradition, knowing that you've got the 'right' vampire etc.

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > > > Ankha wrote: > > Name: Keeper of Tradition > > Cardtype: Action > > +1 stealth action. Requires a ready prince or justicar. > > Remove from your ash heap 3 different tradition cards that this vampire has played. This Camarilla vampire gets +2 bleed and +2 vote. Burn this card if this vampire changes sect. > > > Could you explain the game need? > It's to encourage people to play the various tradition cards (especially 4th and 5th that are rarely played; the 6th is even rarer) by rewarding them. Who plays 5th Traditions nowadays (even though it's an okay card) ? Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > It's to encourage people to play the various tradition cards (especially 4th and 5th that are rarely played; the 6th is even rarer) by rewarding them. Who plays 5th Traditions nowadays (even though it's an okay card) ? > Assuming the card shakes down as being worth playing at all, I'd expect that what it's massively more likely to do is encourage people to continue to play the good tradition cards (2nd, 3rd already played a fair bit, a smattering of 1st) and include one or two others if necessary. That is, if it has any impact at all, it would be to make Camarilla Prince decks using good traditions better. And since those Camarilla Prince decks are typically already using cards like Parity Shift which are very good indeed, I'm not sure they need the help - I'm not sure that making, say, a CAmarilla breed deck with Parity Shift, Second Tradition, Third Tradition, a few Con Boons, and encouraging it to add a couple of First Traditions is actually giving Fourth and Fifth a shot in the arm, or encouraging deck diversity, or anything else. Maybe a breed-boon deck stuffed with 2nd and 3rd gets three Fifth Tradition to refill itself (e.g. Prince1 tops up Prince2 a bit), and to get more votes and more bleed - making a very, very solid deck that bit stronger. The basic thing is: Camarilla Prince decks can already be very strong. If this is worth playing, it would make them stronger. I don't really see that being warranted.

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > The basic thing is: Camarilla Prince decks can already be very strong. If this is worth playing, it would make them stronger. > No, because they'll have to add some traditions that weren't there in the first place. And there was a good reason if they weren't there in the first place: the deck was better without them... that's where you hope that adding some copies of Keeper of Tradition is worth the effort. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Um, it's perfect card for nosferatu princes. Do you think it need more help? Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

> Lech wrote: > Um, it's perfect card for nosferatu princes. Do you think it need more help? > Could you develop? I suppose you're talking about Nosferatu because you have "Nosferatu royalties" archetype in mind ( Ruben's deck is a good example). Unfortunately, that kind of decks don't play that many Traditions. First, usually they focus on 2nd and 3rd tradition, meaning a third different tradition is missing. Of if they play also another tradition, the quantities are low (meaning it's unlikely to draw the 3 different traditions early in the game). And most importantly, they rely a lot on Third Tradition that doesn't go easily in the ash heap once played (someone has to burn the Progeny). Basically, you can't just add that card in a Nosferatu Royalty deck and expect it to work. You'll have to add more traditions, more various, less focused and that's the intent. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Yes, you ca't realy add this card to any good existing deck out of the box. BUT, there is allready a lot of good deck heavily rellying on traditions. And he effect of your proposal is kind of huge (it has the same effect of legendary vampire which is unique, is a master, cost 2 pools + an opportunity cost and is removable). And considering it is designed specifically for a tech (prince/justicar and traditions) which has already very good tools (parity, 2nd trad etc...). What is dansgerous with your proposal is the fact that it is another powerfull card for an already powerfull tech. And yes, it is not very easily done "out of the box" but, I am pretty sure someone will find a very good deck out of it. It is cool to add good cards in order to make people come with different ideas. But I guess it is better done with tech which has not allready very good stuff... And just my own idea of wha can be done with that : Base of the deck : Deck Name: Blood Weakens: Son of Malkav Author: Danilo Torrisi Description: Blood Weakens Massa, Italy June 9, 2013 20 Players 2R + F Crypt (12 cards; Capacity min=7 max=11 avg=9.25) ================================================ 3xx Lutz von Hohenzollern 11 pot AUS DEM OBF PRE Malkavian:4 3xx Maris Streck 9 ani dem dom AUS OBF Malkavian:3 3xx Quentin King III 7 obf pre AUS DEM Malkavian:3 3xx Rachel Brandywine 10 ani AUS DEM OBF PRO Malkavian:3 Library (75 cards) ================== Master (22) 1x Creepshow Casino 1x Direct Intervention 1x Giant's Blood 1x Heidelberg Castle, Germany 3x Madness Network 1x Monastery of Shadows 1x Pentex(TM) Subversion 1x Temptation of Greater Power 2x Villein 10x Zillah's Valley Action (1) 1x Judgment: Camarilla Segregation Political Action (24) 6x First Tradition: The Masquerade 3x Kine Resources Contested 5x My Kin Against the World 10x Parity Shift Equipment (4) 2x Heart of Nizchetus 2x Sargon Fragment, The Action Modifier (10) 4x Elder Impersonation 6x Lost in Crowds Reaction (10) 6x Mental Maze 4x Second Tradition: Domain Combo (4) 4x Swallowed by the Night Created with Secret Library v0.9.4c. (Dec 12, 2014 10:52:34) One of the problem with my kin against the world and maris streck is blood management. So you tweack the list in order to add some fifth trad, a little bit more second trad and some copies of KoT. I am pretty sure someone can find a very good improvement... And you could do the same with rachel and greger I guess and without the my kin against the world.

> Ankha wrote: > > > jamesatzephyr wrote: > > The basic thing is: Camarilla Prince decks can already be very strong. If this is worth playing, it would make them stronger. > > > No, because they'll have to add some traditions that weren't there in the first place. And there was a good reason if they weren't there in the first place: the deck was better without them... that's where you hope that adding some copies of Keeper of Tradition is worth the effort. > Including a smattering of borderline cards in order to get permanent +2 bleed and +2 votes on (potentially) more than one vampire is a pretty sizeable pay off. If benefit > cost, the deck gets better. Legendary Vampire sees play in TWDA entries and that has a significant cost (2 pool), and requires a master card slot, and has a very limited window of play, and has a burn clause (not the easiest to burn because it's a vote, but the possibility is there), and is unique - and it's still a very good card, in the right deck. Including a couple of Fourth Tradition compares extremely favourably to that. On the other hand, if the card makes decks worse, don't print it.

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > > > Ankha wrote: > > > > > jamesatzephyr wrote: > > > The basic thing is: Camarilla Prince decks can already be very strong. If this is worth playing, it would make them stronger. > > > > > No, because they'll have to add some traditions that weren't there in the first place. And there was a good reason if they weren't there in the first place: the deck was better without them... that's where you hope that adding some copies of Keeper of Tradition is worth the effort. > > > Including a smattering of borderline cards in order to get permanent +2 bleed and +2 votes on (potentially) more than one vampire is a pretty sizeable pay off. If benefit > cost, the deck gets better. Legendary Vampire sees play in TWDA entries and that has a significant cost (2 pool), and requires a master card slot, and has a very limited window of play, and has a burn clause (not the easiest to burn because it's a vote, but the possibility is there), and is unique - and it's still a very good card, in the right deck. Including a couple of Fourth Tradition compares extremely favourably to that. > > On the other hand, if the card makes decks worse, don't print it. > It makes different decks. Are they better or worse? I don't know. The real question is: "Would it unbalance the game?" I think not. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

I don't think the cost would weaken significantly a prince deck. Replace govern by tradition and get +2 permanent bleed ? Knock yourself out. That's why I would advice unique on that.

it probably wouldn't create overpowered decks but it's one more good option for princes and justicars and that's not what a game needs.

> Ohlmann wrote: > I don't think the cost would weaken significantly a prince deck. Replace govern by tradition and get +2 permanent bleed ? Knock yourself out. > It doens't work like this, superior Govern in an Eurobrujah deck is important. But it could unique indeed, or limited to 1 per vampire. I's hard to tell without playtest. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Keeping track of which vampire played which card in your ash heap should NEVER be a game mechanic. If you want a card like that (I do not condone or condemn the need for such a card ) I would try something like: Rules Lawyer Master. Archetype. Put this card on a titles Camarilla vampire. At the end of a turn in which this vampire plays a Tradition card, remove the card from the game and add a counter to this card. This vampire may burn X counters for X bleed or votes. A vampire may have only one archetype. Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.