I strongly suspect Temptation of Greater Power from "unbalancing games too strongly". I'm currently focusing on decks using it to try to prove that point. You can share your experience here.
This is the "event report" section, so please do not anwser here to other's people reports, use the "Generic V:TES Discussion" section instead. This topic should only collect reports.
Thanks.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Casual game (november 25th if I recall correctly). 4 players.
Me ("Gang of fur") > Prey (Brujah big cap fight) > Selim (Imbued) > Max (? wall deck?)
I play a Gangrel "royalty" deck (with Xaviar ADV as Justicar). I have Xaviar and Hartmut out, my prey some 10 cap fighting vampire.
Having in hand a Political Stranglehold and as much pool as my prey, I decide to play ToGP on my prey. I pay 3 pool, he ends up paying 12 pool if I recall correctly (should have noted everything at that time), leaving him at something like 3 pool. Retrospectively, I should have bought the vampire, it would have been easier (especially with the Political Stranglehold).
I oust my prey the next turn. Selim threatens to DI my ousting move, but I threaten him back by cross-ousting him (nobody likes Imbued decks, right?)
Stanislava does the rest by killing Selim later, then Max.
ToGP costed my prey: 12 pool (with a credit of 5), leaving him at 3 pool.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Tournament final (December 7th 2014)
Selim (Ventrue grinder) > Jorge (cel gun with Anson, Anneke, Eurobrujah + Ashur) > Alain (Goratrix wall) > Me ("Gang of fur") > Mehdi (same deck as Jorge, but without Ashur)
I'm first seed, Alain is 2nd seed (this is quite important).
At turn 4, table is:
Selim: Lodin
Jorge (having an agreement to leave Anson to Mehdi): Constanza (?)
Alain: Goratrix
Me: Xaviar adv
Mehdi: Anson with 4 blood and a gun.
I have slightly more pool that Mehdi (20 vs 15). I play ToGP on Anson (17 vs 15). In the end, he buys it 17 pool and ends with 3 pool. His game is over: it is nearly impossible for him to win. I try to oust him, he plays a DI on my Form of Mist, leaving him at 2 pool: he can't bring out Anneke (who is missing 2 pool).
Retrospectively, I should have bought Anson (second time, I'll learn some day) because now that my Form of Mist is DIed (and my Earth Meld Dark Influenced by my predator), Xaviar goes to torpor. Hartmut will be next and thanks to a cross-parity from my little prey, I finally get ousted.
So Alain (now first seed) has 1 VP and wins the game 1h20 later by just playing his wall deck
There were only two possible options: either I get my VP and have a huge advantage being first seed, or Alain gets his VP and have a huge advantage being first seed.
ToGP costed my prey: 17 pool (with a credit of 5), leaving him at 3 pool.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
EC Final Table Palma/Mallorca.
After getting Stanislava out, Kamel my Predator play ToGP and steals her. IIRC he played a Banishment on my Ingrid Rossler and in his next turn plays Villein and Golconda on Stanislava. I cant remember how much pool was offered, but it was more than I had. Making me just an spectator for the rest of the game.
Its absurd, that one card can shift the game on such big level.
Erol -> Big fan of banning ToGP.
- Prince of Karlsruhe, Germany
Wow, all this talk of TogP in finals.... thats what Ive done wrong all this time.....
Ive never seen it abused like is mentioned here, I think ive stolen blockers more with from a sinking ship that Ivr seen TogP used to full affect. Doesnt matter, since Ive never seen a deck built just to fully utilize (by which I mean abuse) TogP.
> ReverendRevolver wrote:
> Wow, all this talk of TogP in finals.... thats what Ive done wrong all this time.....
>
> Ive never seen it abused like is mentioned here, I think ive stolen blockers more with from a sinking ship that Ivr seen TogP used to full affect. Doesnt matter, since Ive never seen a deck built just to fully utilize (by which I mean abuse) TogP.
>
Much like you could play Succubus Club without abusing it.
You don't need to built a special deck to (ab)use it since it only requires a Justicar and some pool gain (say a Villein, or Parity Shift). The moment it hits the table, it completely unbalances the table*, even if you play it badly (a mistake I've done a few times).
* it's easy to make your prey lose all pool but 2 or 3.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > ReverendRevolver wrote:
> > Wow, all this talk of TogP in finals.... thats what Ive done wrong all this time.....
> >
> > Ive never seen it abused like is mentioned here, I think ive stolen blockers more with from a sinking ship that Ivr seen TogP used to full affect. Doesnt matter, since Ive never seen a deck built just to fully utilize (by which I mean abuse) TogP.
> >
> Much like you could play Succubus Club without abusing it.
>
> You don't need to built a special deck to (ab)use it since it only requires a Justicar and some pool gain (say a Villein, or Parity Shift). The moment it hits the table, it completely unbalances the table*, even if you play it badly (a mistake I've done a few times).
>
> * it's easy to make your prey lose all pool but 2 or 3.
>
Ive cut it into some lawfirm type stuff and an old cock robim deck, but Its never came up at a good time. Now, in a deck better at bloating ( I run 3 p shift at most in many decks, mostly due to not being a "dedicated" vote deck in prince decks) I could see its stupidness.
With all the super good Justicars around, and the addition of a new one, TogP is super playable, has a huge effect, and if you play it, you probably have a way to pay better than someone else.
But Im always cautious about "Ban this now!" Reactions. Remember turbo parity shift? That deck just got anpther 6 cap with obf, but the p-shift under the axe talks stopped ages ago, so i doubt we will hear much of it.
Only being stoppable by diamond thunderbolt or a master canceler is rough too, though. No cap restriction is kinda nuts, and victor pelletier can play it fast, so the potenential for it becoming "the" problem card has existed for years, but its not something everyone has been screwed by.
I’ve had quite a few experiences with ToGP and to summarize: every single time it has been succesfully played (no suddens) it has changed the face of the game completely. Some experiences from tournament settings:
- EC 2014 Day 2 I played ToGP on my predator’s Anson he had just brought out. He kept the guy but it cost him 17 or so pool. With a stealth-bleed predator he was hard-pressed to do anything meaningful in the game (but managed to survive for quite some time). The table finally times out with me, his original prey, and his original predator left on the table.
- Swedish Nationals 2012 I had a decent table lock-down with weenie Auspex. Then Randy, my prey, plays ToGP on Victoria with Vessel, The Rack, and Magnum, Victoria goes to my predator Robert, IIRC, for ten-ish pool. I oust Randy but my crosstable buddy Henrik gets the GW.
- Ropecon 2010 I play ToGP on my predator’s full Mistress Fanchon and get her for 17ish pool. Worth every drop! I win the game.
- Ropecon 2014 During the heads-up, my predator announces ToGP on my Lutz I just brought out. Should the card resolve, he wins the game hands down. Then we notice his Dmitra has Derange, and he has no other justicar. Next turn I Villein Lutz and ToGP Dmitra. I win the game.
- Ropecon 2014 I play big caps with no combat defense and I end up with a potence rush prey – so I’m basically toast, right? With something absurd, like 1st turn Zillah’s Valley and 2nd turn Jake and 3rd turn Villein & ToGP on my prey’s Volker puts him on an unwinnable position. I get 1,5 VPs, and my prey 0, of course.
- Ropecon 2012 finals I know that my cross-table buddy Michael plays ToGP in his Unmada-Lutz-Dmitra-Undele vote deck (at least I assume so). So I want to keep him on a short leash and let his Lasombra stealth bleed predator bleed him by not rushing his minons. A lot of things happen, but the result: Michael has hard time bringing out enough vampires to pressure his prey, Randy, who ends up getting the GW. And ToGP was part of the game even though it never got played.
There might be some minor inaccuracies in the descriptions, but the bottom line is: I think this card unbalances the table in such a way that if it doesn’t lead to the player playing it winning the game, at least it causes the player it’s played on to lose the game. It’s ridiculously hard to play around – basically suddens or destroying all justicars the round they come out. It has such an enormous impact on the table balance I feel no one card should have.
Yesterday's game (I was just spectating).
A Gangrel royalty plays ToGP on the main vampire controlled by his predator (I think it was Lutz). After paying the pool, Gangrel is a 11 pool, with a contest of Stanislava with his own prey, Lutz at 11 too.
Auction ends with the Lutz player paying 15 (with the credit), and being ousted the turn right after.
Without Lutz, his game would also have been over.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
*Mon anglais etant pas terrible, si tu pouvais traduire ca serait cool*
C'etait moi qui jouait MarisLutz et qui a pris TOGP sur Maris Streck.
J'avais Maris Streck full blood et Adana de Sforza a 0 blood. TOGP sur Maris Streck, que je payes 15. Je decides de payer, d'une parceque j'ai 3 Parity Shift en main, de deux parceque si ma proie recupere Maris Streck ma game est foutue.
Maxime Socroun, 3200321
Translation:
So it's wasn't Lutz but Maris Streck. The other vampire he controlled was Adana de Sforza with no blood. He was willing to pay 15 because he had some Parity Shift in hand, and because if Maris was gone, his game would be over.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Otso wrote:
> - EC 2014 Day 2 I played ToGP on my predator’s Anson he had just brought out. He kept the guy but it cost him 17 or so pool. With a stealth-bleed predator he was hard-pressed to do anything meaningful in the game (but managed to survive for quite some time). The table finally times out with me, his original prey, and his original predator left on the table.
>
> There might be some minor inaccuracies in the descriptions, but the bottom line is: I think this card unbalances the table in such a way that if it doesn’t lead to the player playing it winning the game, at least it causes the player it’s played on to lose the game. It’s ridiculously hard to play around – basically suddens or destroying all justicars the round they come out. It has such an enormous impact on the table balance I feel no one card should have.
>
I was the guy you played ToGP on and I payed 22 pool (credit included). It's normal, Anson had a gun.
Anyway, I also managed to take Constanza out (and pay all the credit). It was enough with 2 Villein and 1 Parity Shift. Sure not any deck can do that, but usually decks that are more sensible to ToGP play Villein.
Surely that game was unbalanced after ToGP (as every game is after playing ToGP, but also after taking 2 bleeds for 6, a couple of shifts etc.), but even with a S/B behind I only got killed because (if I don't recall bad) I got pentexed by my predator and back-banished by you.
I remind you that in that game you were at a couple of minutes and some mistakes from Romain (the guy playing Unnamed B/S) from being ousted and giving him the GW.
I won't say I did better (you got better score overall), I just tried to do my best to survive selling my ass.
PD: Everyone hates when being played ToGP, but as every permanent/temporary way of stealing vampires. You first need to be justicar, then someone needs to pay the pool. The problem of it it's that it often destroys more someone's game than gives the game to the one who played it.
Today's game on Lackey. I've ousted my prey and I have Hartmut, Xaviar ADV and Stanislava. My new prey has Malgorzata, Mistress Fanchion and Rafael de Corazon.
I'm at 21 pool, my prey at 17.
I play TOGP on Mistress Fanchion and buy her for 13 pool (for some reason my prey didn't want to bid more, and the other players were at 4 and 11 pool).
Then I play a Parity Shift that passes with the 4 votes of Fanchion. Then I banish Malgorzata. I kill my prey on the next turn.
Without TOGP, I didn't have the vote lock and it would have been quite difficult to oust my prey that packs some Deflection and whose own prey is at 4 pool.
See picture for details (I'm resolving the Parity Shift at that time).
Attachment togp.jpg not found
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
I remember a game et the EC 2014 playing between 2 vote decks, my prey a stealth bleeder/voter and my predator Ventrue.
The Ventrue had quickly taken a chunk out of my pool so i could only have 2 midcaps, but with a tooled up Neighbor John i could pretty much control the ventrue and stay alive... until the TOGP came.
Eventually my prey, who had had little pressure, ended up buying Neighbor John (now with free sniper rifle!) and of course i was ousted quickly after that. Eventually my prey easily took the table, as they could still not penetrate neigbor John.
Not just because I had lost this game because of the card, but I agree that ToGP is quite imbalanced and I would not mind if it was banned. It is just not much fun.
I agree it's powerful, but as I'm against any sort of ban, I would rather see it's cost increased, I think 6 or so pool would make it more of a risk play for one playing it.
Just my 2 cents: got no oppinion about brockednes of the card but totally for the ban - game is overbloated and we only make it better by trimming card pool.
NC Russia