with all of the work i'd been doing on the full bleed project, i began to wonder what the cards could look like given a full once-over. this thread is for these ideas and hopefully for the community to help me refine them, as the feedback was largely constructive and extremely valuable.
[ally]
Thought process: I was able to re-saturate the ally text box and manipulate it to create a background. Life/Strength/Bleed each now have their own blips. I tried to put things were people were generally used to seeing them.
I'd probably be thinking if you're going for a total reinvent...
I'm not a huge fan of the name-bar but *shrugs* it's mostly about not loving it looking too similar to Universal Fight System...
Card Type Icon 'on' the artwork under the start of the name or under the set icon on the right.
I think I'd want something else for the three colours, so they don't get mistaken for Capacity. Maybe not circles but squares... Life as a red square could work.
I was dabbling with the idea at one point of basically putting the number on another type of icon. So bleed would say be on some kind of 'destroyed' symbol, strength in a 'fist' icon (but not the potence icon) and so on.
Maybe also put the FoS icon centered above the Unique Mummy?
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
Before I comment on this, I love the premise, I dig the facelift concept, even if just as promos later.
Now, the life/strength/bleed I dont like. At all. Ally and action symbols need either put on the art/bar in the top righthnd corner, or put the FoS symbol on the upper left of text box and action/ally symbol in upper right of text.
Now, if we put white letters on darker Blue/Red/Green/purple(inherent stealth) id be happy with the stat circles, and Id say make them labeled in tiny text as well as place them under the text box or where disciplines go.
If we format stuff like this, other things will be easier in the future, and art pops more.
Lastly, with master cards that dont tap and equipment that doesnt tap, what about horizontal layout for the card in a promo? 44 magnum, sniper rifle, smiling jack, events, whatever dont tap. Unless we plan on making them tap later, some things may be easier to see as horizontal. Also, skill cards could be like this. Just a thought.
Back to the mummy, do we have to have a bar at the top? Logos and name on the art would be nice (at least for promo)
Vamps i dislike. Full bleed is good, this looks like it would be better withno bars. Opaque-semi transparent text box, clan and discipline symbols superimposed on the art itself, and cap totally opaque.
I like upper one(brunhilde). Lower have awkard clan icon.
Anther weird idea, what if sect is shown as an icon and removed from box ?
Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.
I love the designs in general. But here are few points...
#1) The location of Clan, Discipline and Capacity should remain the same on vampires.
#2) The location of library card icons should stay in the left side, vertical position could vary some.
#3) The set symbol is IMHO not optional.
Jussi Hattara
Webmaster Extraordinaire
Finnish Politics!
> self wrote:
> intentionally deleted?
>
Nah, don't delete them.
Looking at the Brunhilde Mk 1 image.
Replace "Gangrel" with "Set Icon" and put the "Gangrel" under the "B" and I think you'd probably have more of a winner. Changing the orientation of Disciplines doesn't seem too problematic. Sure, it might confuse a few newbies, but it shouldn't confuse them for long. Either "listing" seems functional.
I have a bigger problem with the 'capacity' style markers for Allies.
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
I SO agree with jhattara on this.
And I also like the upper Brunhilde better; clan symbol on top is the way to go. (Is it possible to keep on using it on left and just place the text to right?
Finnish Politics!
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
>
> > self wrote:
> > intentionally deleted?
> >
> Nah, don't delete them.
>
> Looking at the Brunhilde Mk 1 image.
>
> Replace "Gangrel" with "Set Icon" and put the "Gangrel" under the "B" and I think you'd probably have more of a winner. Changing the orientation of Disciplines doesn't seem too problematic. Sure, it might confuse a few newbies, but it shouldn't confuse them for long. Either "listing" seems functional.
>
> I have a bigger problem with the 'capacity' style markers for Allies.
>
We've had disciplines in that spot before, it should be fine.
Ally thing needs looked at more, and Id like to see no bar version for the top.
Yeah, but in that layout, the discipline icons were horridly small and could be painful to recognise at a distance.
Its feeling more and more like the styles used in things like UFS and that does take away from the 'urban gothic' that has been part of VTES from its VtM roots. Not sure how to update it without losing some of the 'urban gothic' but I think it is lost from the Saatet. On top of not liking the drops.
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
I really like the vertical style used for presenting the disciplines introducesd in Camarilal Edition.
So far anything tried out with this experiment hasn't so far resulted in something I'd think was superior, or even equal, to that.
Not saying that you shouldn't try to improve on it, but it is something that I feel has least need to be changed.
Finnish Politics!
IMO full-bleed designs with vertical bar (with disciplines on it) on the left side looked much better.
I feel that Such design would be better for library cards as well. Bar is a good place for placing different icons, without it it looks messy. Could we try Saatet-ta with such design?
I've a busy weekend ahead of me, but i wanted to let everyone know i've got some ideas from everyone's feedback and can hopefully make something happen on sunday.
> self wrote:
> I put the green bar back in, but shortened it significantly. more to come later....
>
Looks good but the red and blue dots are very ambiguous.
Jussi Hattara
Webmaster Extraordinaire
Finnish Politics!
Labeling the life, bleed, strength, stealth, and intercept would be optimal. Itd look neat putting the word in black ON the 2 in this case, but since 3's arent doable in this fashion (but 1, 2,4,5,7 are...) its not optimal, I guess. Maybe redesign the circle thing to include lables at the bottom.
Beyond that, still cant decide if I like the action and ally symbols where they are. Like the art being big though
This is starting to look like a horse designed by a committee... A camel.
I don't mind the 'top and cardtype bar' format, but I didn't think it really felt VTES (felt more like a SciFi CCG). The full-bleed idea that has been tossed around for crypt cards looked good (and either a setup with discipline column or discipline row).
For the Library cards, the design is looking messier and messier.
Like it or lump it, VTES players are used to looking for requirements on the mid-left, card type on the top-left and there haven't been symbols used for life, bleed and strength yet (and if some were used, those coloured dots aren't distinctive enough from capacity to be useful). The Library card tests aren't looking great.
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
@juggernaut: yeah, i'm beginning to agree with you about the library cards. there might be a way to make it work, but if there is, it's probably outside of my skill level. I have a hard time actually generating anything from scratch. I might be able to find some wrought-iron shenanniganery somewhere out there though. Staatet might also have been a poor choice for showcasing what a redesigned ally could look like.
@Rev: I'm not sure that adding stealth/intercept icons is the way to go as a general rule, the vast majority of minions have neither stock intercept nor stealth. every ally has life, most everything else has strength or bleed. I would be in favor to adding things like +bleed/stealth/intercept/infernal and stuff like that to the bolded part of the cardtext, rather than tacking it on at the end.
the green bar is super annoying, though, because it keeps us from making the art box bigger.
I have a few more ideas to try, though. I did scope out some of the other CCGs that people said the designs remind them of, and i don't really see it myself. the fact that it does for others means that it's there. It'll take me a few weeks before i can find the time to come back to this.
It's not just the Saatet Ta part. It really is about the layout. The style of the top-and-bottom border makes me think it should be for Babylon 5 cards, or Trek:TNG cards or similar. There is something 'lost'.
I'd especially suggest returning to some of the core layout of a VTES card: key-symbols on the left. Requirements, cost and card type for starters. A horizontal bar without the curve top and bottom might help return the format a little. For vampires, I think it is important to put the clan logo on the right under the vampire's name. Disciplines could easily be run up the left side as they did from CE onwards. I might try mock-up something to express the idea a bit more.
For the Life image, I'd try using something like a 'stick figure' or a 'toilet door man', maybe a 'heart'.
http://images.clipartpanda.com/elector-clipart-7TaERG7TA.svg
Strength just use a 'black fist with a white border' like the potence logo.
Maybe an explosion for bleed or a dagger?
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
I'll find another place to 'host' and then relink them.
Edit: Here they are using new links.
EDIT: Added in after as idea for 'colourising' the Left-Hand Bar
With a mockup of a Set Icon watermarked behind the text box.
50% opacity of set icon
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
There's already plenty of (too many?) icons. Adding more icons for life, strength, bleed would be a bad idea.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Ankha,
Symbol matching and/or using 'common symbols' like the 'heart' for life (which has been going on for HOW LONG in computer gaming? Since the 80s at least) can make things simple enough. It was done mostly as a counterpoint to using coloured circles, which are too similar to an existing symbol (capacity).
Heck there are plenty of games where symbol matching almost makes the card texts irrelevant. Symbols are not your enemy Ankha. Vague symbols or confusion are your enemy.
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
so, this is actually a few months old. Someone was crowing about using icon based sect identification... so here's my hand at it, in various styles:
[style 1]
[style 2]
[Style 3]
[style 4]
The images are well done, and I appreciate the work put into it, and applaud the results.
I do have some input:
When it comes to vampires, having the disciplines on the left hand side is useful when you consider advanced vampires and how you splay them. If you move the disciplines, it should be in a location that takes that into account.
I don't mind the full bleed effect on cards, but quickly recognizing vampire clans from across the table is useful. Honestly, I would have to print out the cards and look at them across the table to tell if they are distinctive or not. Making the clan and sect symbols as prominent as they are in the most recent examples look pretty good on my computer screen, if they read well across the table than it is even better.
Also having the information on the left bar for library cards is damn useful when they are held in hand.
Information that is useful while the card is in play should be on the right side, as players generally splay cards to the right. So things like +Strength, Life and Bleed should be on the right.
One thing other CCGs do is have a space on cards pretty much dedicated to a particular trait of the card. In vampire we have Capacity and Life (differentiated by color). There is no reason why there can't be a place for Strength, Bleed, Votes and Intercept.
One thing stopping this is that there is a default of 1 strength and bleed, and a default intercept and votes of 0. The reason this is a design problem is inconsistency.
It is inconsistent because not all traits default to the same. If all defaults were 0 or 1 it would be easy: print the number if it differs from the default.
In order to make it consistent you would have to print the default numbers as well. Including the number "1" on all vampires and allies that have 1 bleed would be redundant to the extreme.
Long story short, function and design go hand in hand when you are talking about a collectible card game. Take into account the function of the cards, but if the design is compromised by the function: simplify.
Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.
I don't think library cards should have a discipline/clan Icon (or any requirement icon) up instead of at the middle of the left bar.
Exploring new layouts can be a good idea.
I just think its extremely useful to lay some icons on the left for library cards.
Across most of the sets in this game, I've been able to explaing a new player that for library cards you can identify 3 zones on the left bar:
UP are Types (Only for minion cards).
MID are Requirements.
DOWN are costs.
I think it's healthy to keep those base guidelines.
