The Full Bleed project - back on my bullshit [03.20]

February 2023: This once started as a thing, then became another thing, got weird and headed in a few different directions, and then collapsed in on itself. If you're new here, enjoy the ride. If you've ridden this ride before, skip to the end for the juicy bits, and have fun. OP: i'm not quite sure where to put this. there are some inconsistencies in my work here, but i'm also not a graphic artist. full bleed alternate cards make wonderful promos (hint hint) and should PoD ever become a thing, i'm sure people would pay a premium for re-stylized cards. thoughts? criticisms? vehement invective?

GODDAMN AMAZING! DO WANT THIS! Archbishop of Vitória

i'm using the classic source material, because it's what i have available to me in one format or another. hopefully we'll get new backgrounds if/when the game gets resurrected.

WOW!

Not a fan of old mixed with new. Fullsize art is ok, but use current backgrounds. Also, not a fan of blurry left bar. Otherwise neat. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

Those look freakin' sweet. Just gotta fit the expansion symbol in there.

Hey, those are really great! Now art is fully shown to respect the whole piece instead of just a character's face. Good work! ---- Banging trashcans, breaking windows We'll wake you up tonight We like the good time, we scream and shout And that's what fun's about

Love it. I am not sure if it works for all cards, but I appreciate the effort you already put into this experiment. Please do this for Stanislava!

Here is an idea for the PR Poles... When there is a new set in the pipeline, which based on current trends will get released almost annually (like the last two landing on or before the last two ECs)... 1) Get a handful of vampires and actions drafted EARLY (There will be some cards that should sail through Playtesting) 2) Full-bleed the art as MUCH as possible. 3) Print out basically 10 sets for each Continental Championship and post them to the NCs (5 sets for Finalists of LCQ and 5 for the Finalists of the Championships). 4) Maybe try toss in a poster of one of the vampires or crypt cards at a large scale for the Championship Winner (one per Continental). Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

Looks like the font for the card names could use a thicker black border. It would help a lot with legibility for artwork with lighter backgrounds.

Try this with library cards, too. There are certain super-common cards (Blood Doll, Wake, etc) that could work as promos with simply a card title, full-sized artwork, and no card text. I remember discussing this idea for promos several years ago when the game was still in print...

awesome!!! I just fell in love with those. IMO it would be great to have a next PDF expansion done like this, especially crypt cards. Not sure about library, because borders in differect colours makes it easy to distinguish between diferent types of card without looking on symbols.

Right... the point with library cards would be only to do it with cards that "everybody" knows the text of, that go in "every" deck, and that are common enough not to shake up the metagame. Blood Doll and Wake were the obvious examples. I'm sure there's a longer (but still relatively short) list of cards that this idea would work for.

> jozxyqk wrote: > Try this with library cards, too. > There are certain super-common cards (Blood Doll, Wake, etc) that could work as promos with simply a card title, full-sized artwork, and no card text. > This is a bad idea if you want to attract new players to a game. VERY bad. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> jozxyqk wrote: > Right... the point with library cards would be only to do it with cards that "everybody" knows the text of, that go in "every" deck, and that are common enough not to shake up the metagame. > > Blood Doll and Wake were the obvious examples. I'm sure there's a longer (but still relatively short) list of cards that this idea would work for. > Even with common cards such as Blood Doll, there are times when you want to check things out - like "was it during the untap or the master phase?" And, of course, those cards would be horribly, horribly rude to newbies. Your idea needs to be diablerized, pillowfaced, burned and removed from game. Sorry. EDIT: And to clarify: I think the worst thing about VTES is that it's a very complex game that's confusing to newbies. Anything that makes it worse is a Bad Idea.

> Lech wrote: > Not a fan of old mixed with new. Fullsize art is ok, but use current backgrounds. Also, not a fan of blurry left bar. Otherwise neat. > if I had the current backgrounds it would be totally doable, but I don't. I'm working with a bunch of 800x600 wallpapers i found yonks ago on the now defunct warghoul.net. they're on the blurry side to begin with and blowing them up to 300 dpi exacerbates the problem. I still wanted to use the clan background somehow and this had the added benefit of getting rid of the green bar, but still keeping the element. > BenPeal wrote: > Looks like the font for the card names could use a thicker black border. It would help a lot with legibility for artwork with lighter backgrounds. > heh. i actually used an older version of Ankha's VCM to get the discipline placement and text done right. I wholeheartedly agree with you, though. I'd even be in favor of putting a black border around the Capacity number too.

Hello, Not to start any debate... just to say to the full bleed producer: "Please continue!" > > HG.fi wrote: > Even with common cards such as Blood Doll, there are times when you want to check things out - like "was it during the untap or the master phase?" > > And, of course, those cards would be horribly, horribly rude to newbies. > Like every games, to use this kind of promo cards, you have to bring a regular copy of the card so that every player can check any parts of the regular card. > HG.fi wrote: > Your idea needs to be diablerized, pillowfaced, burned and removed from game. Sorry. > > EDIT: And to clarify: > > I think the worst thing about VTES is that it's a very complex game that's confusing to newbies. Anything that makes it worse is a Bad Idea. > Many players say the VTES card look really bad, many people like full bleed cards since they are a bit different. This full bleed cards could even motivate some old school players to get back to play. Best Regards, Rémi. I am Rémi Cavaillé (), Barcelona (Spain). I was the Prince of Lyon (France) around 2003. I am now Official Judge and the 5th Prince of Barcelona. Enjoy VTES, Marvel Champions, L5R and more gaming activities in Khan Jugar: sites.google.com/view/khanjugar/

WOW-BEYOND AWESOME! Finnish Politics!

Ive said for ahwile that alternate art promos are a great idea, these look like a good idea as well. Now, the REAL problem: How to we get back in print? Is WotC more in favor of boosters? Does ccp have doubts about profit? This last set, witb some reprints(more on that shortly) would have sold. DM was less of a home run, and would still have possibly been a money maker. We could easily have people willing to buy TU with reprint "filler" consisting of non-junk. Freak drive, deep song, sense dep, cog, villein, monestary, you get the idea. DM would be harder. Adding more crypt and reprinting staples and sabbat goodness (TV, abbot, etc) would make it work too. Is Steve Weick still in negotiations? Its plain we (meaning the vekn and DT) have something people will buy. Precons and boosters would be fine to test marketability. Reprints would drivr sales almost as much as great new stuff. This is a good time to be noticed.

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > Is Steve Weick still in negotiations? > Yes. Stay cool. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

Very, very nice. Lucita is my favorite illustration with Lolita Houston.

I prefer the old backgrounds anyway but is it necessary to blow them up more or could you keep a sharper resolution by not doing so? Were these pics online or did you scan the clan novels, which these are all from? Though they look great, you have added more of the top part of the picture and lost some of the left side, most likely due to the discipline/background bar. I say fuck the expansion symbol.

Ben, is it possible to allow these cards on official torunament and for fun games? I would find amusing to play with a sick crypt layout like this on a tournament. Archbishop of Vitória

> Wand wrote: > Ben, > > is it possible to allow these cards on official torunament and for fun games? I would find amusing to play with a sick crypt layout like this on a tournament. > The only cards this layout could be used for are the VEKN-created cards. Wizards and White Wolf created cards are not permissible, as it would be reprinting existing cards. I'd also like to see the layout go through some testing for how it looks and reads and is identified on the table. So, right this second you can't use this layout, but I'm intrigued enough to consider testing it.

It can look amazing, but that's because the test is made with John Van Flet's art. Van Flet style is really graphic and with great backgrounds, that's why it looks so good. With other art works it wont be the same. Almost all cards have plain, gradient or texture background, and that styles wont work in the same way that ornamental ones. Just test it, you will find cards with great look and others with poor one. Another drawback is that you lose the identity of the clans and the unity between the cards. Vtes have a lot of good artists but with different styles. If you remove the common element from the cards you lose the unity between them.

> Drizmo wrote: > It can look amazing, but that's because the test is made with John Van Flet's art. Van Flet style is really graphic and with great backgrounds, that's why it looks so good. With other art works it wont be the same. Almost all cards have plain, gradient or texture background, and that styles wont work in the same way that ornamental ones. > > Just test it, you will find cards with great look and others with poor one. > > Another drawback is that you lose the identity of the clans and the unity between the cards. Vtes have a lot of good artists but with different styles. If you remove the common element from the cards you lose the unity between them. > yeah, not all vampires are going to look great as a full bleed card, and there's a good reason that i used Van Fleet's artwork. i tried my damnedest to find another Sabbat vampire to use, but i couldn't find anything that was even remotely usable.

> self wrote: > > > Drizmo wrote: > > It can look amazing, but that's because the test is made with John Van Flet's art. Van Flet style is really graphic and with great backgrounds, that's why it looks so good. With other art works it wont be the same. Almost all cards have plain, gradient or texture background, and that styles wont work in the same way that ornamental ones. > > > > Just test it, you will find cards with great look and others with poor one. > > > > Another drawback is that you lose the identity of the clans and the unity between the cards. Vtes have a lot of good artists but with different styles. If you remove the common element from the cards you lose the unity between them. > > > yeah, not all vampires are going to look great as a full bleed card, and there's a good reason that i used Van Fleet's artwork. i tried my damnedest to find another Sabbat vampire to use, but i couldn't find anything that was even remotely usable. > I agree, though there are some artists that I think that may suit your purposes: Timothy Bradstreet comes to mind, another is Lawrence Snelly. Both seem to have eye for a background, which seems quite fundamental for a good full-bleed cards. I went through new set, and I think that there are many pictures that could be used to experiment how good or bad full-bleed layout looks. I'd choose some that have strong details in the background and some who do not have much background details. One thing needs to be considered as well. Since background of an art piece is very important, they may need some... tweaking if I may say. That may be an issue. I don't know since I have little knowledge about legal or copyright agreements. Other trick is to figure out a set of nice graphical patterns, which may be used to enhance the effect. This is similar to current layout form, but it would not frame the whole art piece. Van Fleet has drawn/painted Isabella to have that kind of enhancement (on top of the picture there is an arch). But yea, not all pics suit for full-bleed while others do. There are means to get not-that-well-suited art pieces to work in full-bleed design. ---- Banging trashcans, breaking windows We'll wake you up tonight We like the good time, we scream and shout And that's what fun's about

> Wand wrote: > Ben, > > is it possible to allow these cards on official torunament and for fun games? I would find amusing to play with a sick crypt layout like this on a tournament. > anything goes in fun games ...

I received several images from Ben today, and began working on some new prototypes. i did figure out a way to get some of the current backgrounds worked in (though the Giovanni and Followers of Set were basically unusable). so... thoughts? backbiting? movie reviews?

They look great! We'd need to get the artists to fix up some of the portrait ovals that are clipping into the corners.

Is Xaviar advanced?

He is in The Unaligned. This is just a layout test.

thanks! i've already spotted a few casual errors, but they still look pretty slick as all hell.

> XZealot wrote: > Is Xaviar advanced? > yeah, that's one of the errors

Wow! Very cool.

Awesome! I just knew that there were lots of pics that would work! Many thanks to all involved in a process! > BenPeal wrote: > They look great! We'd need to get the artists to fix up some of the portrait ovals that are clipping into the corners. > Ben, do you mean, that some portraits have been delivered already as chopped? Could you clarify a little? Thanks. ---- Banging trashcans, breaking windows We'll wake you up tonight We like the good time, we scream and shout And that's what fun's about

> Jussi wrote: > > > BenPeal wrote: > > They look great! We'd need to get the artists to fix up some of the portrait ovals that are clipping into the corners. > > > Ben, do you mean, that some portraits have been delivered already as chopped? Could you clarify a little? > > Thanks. > The artists create crypt portraits with the expectation that there is the boundary of the oval "cutout" in the clan background art. Here are some examples:

> Jussi wrote: > > > BenPeal wrote: > > They look great! We'd need to get the artists to fix up some of the portrait ovals that are clipping into the corners. > > > Ben, do you mean, that some portraits have been delivered already as chopped? Could you clarify a little? > > Thanks. > The artists create crypt portraits with the expectation that there is the boundary of the oval "cutout" in the clan background art. Here are some examples: Attachment iagocastille.jpg not found Attachment karmenitayoryari.jpg not found Attachment matasuntha_2014-10-10.jpg not found

These look awesome! Any possibility of having an (alternate?) official layout for Danse Macabre & Unaligned, using these, some time down the line?

> BenPeal wrote: > > > Jussi wrote: > > > > > BenPeal wrote: > > > They look great! We'd need to get the artists to fix up some of the portrait ovals that are clipping into the corners. > > > > > > > > Ben, do you mean, that some portraits have been delivered already as chopped? Could you clarify a little? > > > > Thanks. > > > The artists create crypt portraits with the expectation that there is the boundary of the oval "cutout" in the clan background art. Here are some examples: > Thank you, this is exactly what I was wondering. ---- Banging trashcans, breaking windows We'll wake you up tonight We like the good time, we scream and shout And that's what fun's about

> PetriWessman wrote: > These look awesome! Any possibility of having an (alternate?) official layout for Danse Macabre & Unaligned, using these, some time down the line? > The most accurate answer I can give is "definite maybe". We would need to get some of the artists to do touch-up work with respect to the corners where the border oval clips in. We would also need to do some field testing for user experience and see how people feel about mixed crypts of normal and full-bleed cards. The template also needs some adjustments.

Rulewise, I see no reason why these wouldn't be usable, except, pehraps, some loss in clarity (cards of the same clan have ths same background and are easily spotted).

Some thoughts: These cards aren't true "full-bleed", which is when the art extends all the way to the edges of the card. There's still a black border around the edges - which is good in my opinion. If the game were to go back in print, true full-bleed would cause two problems. Gameplay-wise, you would have to sleeve them in tournaments, as the edges of the cards would be distinctive. Production-wise, true full-bleed costs more. Keeping the black border around the edges would eliminate those issues, and the cards would still look great - the mock-ups you've seen so far have that border. The mock-ups self-biased has done have square edges, whereas actual VTES cards have rounded edges. Compare the mockups with the DM and TU cards. Minor point, but I mention it for the sake of completeness. The clan symbol should be a bit larger, and ultimately should be the dominant icon on the card. The text box appears to have some transparency issues, such that the clan background is kinda bleeding through. It might be a layering thing, where the bleed-through is coming from the clan background instead of the art background. I'd prefer the latter. There's also what to do with the expansion symbol. Some options: - Not have one at all, but I'm guessing most players want an expansion indicator of some kind. I gotta say, though, self-biased's original mockups with the Van Fleet art look fantastic without an expansion symbol. Compare those with the DM/TU mockups he did. The expansion symbol is a giant distraction. (side note: I have no idea why WW made the expansion symbol so large and its placement so odd in the present layout, but it drives me nuts.) - Make the expansion symbol a lot smaller, and tuck it all the way into the top-right corner. - Make it a lot smaller and put on the top right corner of the text box, overlapping it like the capacity symbol does (maybe having a fixed-size "badge" for it). - Make it a lot smaller and tuck it into the bottom-left-hand corner, below the first discipline icon, where it can be covered up by the hologram of a card sleeve. - Ditch having an expansion symbol, but instead have an abbreviation (like SOC, LON, JYH, 3ED, etc.) in between the artist and copyright notices. There is a LOT I like about this layout concept. It's fresh. It's clean. It's uncluttered. It looks new - which could be especially important if the game comes back. It might very well be better for gameplay, identification, and user experience. It looks sharp. It looks great. On top of it all, it still looks and feels like V:TES. Bravo!

> Pascal wrote: > Rulewise, I see no reason why these wouldn't be usable, except, pehraps, some loss in clarity (cards of the same clan have ths same background and are easily spotted). > Players generally seem to handle the fairly radical changes in crypt card layout and clan backgrounds between Bloodlines and Cam Ed fine, so I personally would be very surprised if this turned out to be a major problem. -- National Coordinator South Africa

> drnlmza wrote: > > > Pascal wrote: > > Rulewise, I see no reason why these wouldn't be usable, except, pehraps, some loss in clarity (cards of the same clan have ths same background and are easily spotted). > > > Players generally seem to handle the fairly radical changes in crypt card layout and clan backgrounds between Bloodlines and Cam Ed fine, so I personally would be very surprised if this turned out to be a major problem. > Oh no...I remember a fair amount of outrage over the Cam Edition layouts. Those layouts were changed in the very next set (Anarchs) as a result. They had two big problems: 1) The left-side stripe went all the way up to the top, such that when you fanned out your hand, you couldn't immediately tell what the cards were 'cause you couldn't read the first few letters of the title. 2) The disciplines and pool costs were fully into the bottom left corner, where they could be covered up by holograms common to card sleeves. Other problems included a smaller text box for crypt cards (adjusted later on - I forget which set but definitely in HttB), the expansion symbol was substantially bigger than clan symbols on crypt cards (still not corrected and the Design Team should get on that), and the positioning of expansion symbols was odd (still not corrected). Here are the Cam Ed and Anarchs versions of Pug Jackson for comparison: Attachment pugjackson.jpg not found Attachment pugjackson-anarchs.jpg not found

For future reference, the best vampire IMO to illustrate layout differences is -- of all vampires -- Judah. He appeared in Ancient Hearts, Cam Edition, and the Anarchs-era Demo Decks:

the HUGE expansion symbol is especially annoying. Old, smaller symbols looked much better. Why is wasn't modified for Danse Macabre and The Unaligned?

> alek wrote: > the HUGE expansion symbol is especially annoying. Old, smaller symbols looked much better. > Why is wasn't modified for Danse Macabre and The Unaligned? > Consistency with existing cards and unwillingness to make yet another layout change. If self-biased only said, "Hey, what if we changed the crypt layout to a full-bleed style?" I would have said something like "Die in a fire". Thankfully, he just up and did it and showed us, and I stand corrected.

> BenPeal wrote: > There's also what to do with the expansion symbol. Some options: > > - Not have one at all, but I'm guessing most players want an expansion indicator of some kind. I gotta say, though, self-biased's original mockups with the Van Fleet art look fantastic without an expansion symbol. Compare those with the DM/TU mockups he did. The expansion symbol is a giant distraction. (side note: I have no idea why WW made the expansion symbol so large and its placement so odd in the present layout, but it drives me nuts.) > - Make the expansion symbol a lot smaller, and tuck it all the way into the top-right corner. > - Make it a lot smaller and put on the top right corner of the text box, overlapping it like the capacity symbol does (maybe having a fixed-size "badge" for it). > - Make it a lot smaller and tuck it into the bottom-left-hand corner, below the first discipline icon, where it can be covered up by the hologram of a card sleeve. > - Ditch having an expansion symbol, but instead have an abbreviation (like SOC, LON, JYH, 3ED, etc.) in between the artist and copyright notices. > I agree that the expansion symbols are generally far too large, and they're especially distracting in this new (and pretty brilliant!) design. I'd vote for ditching it entirely and using an abbreviation. Keep things clean. Edited to add: I don't love the way that the clan symbols of certain clans (especially Assamite, but also all antitribu) spill out over the border. When they're contained to the sidebar, they look great, but when they splash over they... float. They look like they're floating. Something about it doesn't work.

> BenPeal wrote: > Some thoughts: > > These cards aren't true "full-bleed", which is when the art extends all the way to the edges of the card. There's still a black border around the edges - which is good in my opinion. If the game were to go back in print, true full-bleed would cause two problems. Gameplay-wise, you would have to sleeve them in tournaments, as the edges of the cards would be distinctive. Production-wise, true full-bleed costs more. Keeping the black border around the edges would eliminate those issues, and the cards would still look great - the mock-ups you've seen so far have that border. > > The mock-ups self-biased has done have square edges, whereas actual VTES cards have rounded edges. Compare the mockups with the DM and TU cards. Minor point, but I mention it for the sake of completeness. > > The clan symbol should be a bit larger, and ultimately should be the dominant icon on the card. > > The text box appears to have some transparency issues, such that the clan background is kinda bleeding through. It might be a layering thing, where the bleed-through is coming from the clan background instead of the art background. I'd prefer the latter. > > There's also what to do with the expansion symbol. Some options: > > - Not have one at all, but I'm guessing most players want an expansion indicator of some kind. I gotta say, though, self-biased's original mockups with the Van Fleet art look fantastic without an expansion symbol. Compare those with the DM/TU mockups he did. The expansion symbol is a giant distraction. (side note: I have no idea why WW made the expansion symbol so large and its placement so odd in the present layout, but it drives me nuts.) > - Make the expansion symbol a lot smaller, and tuck it all the way into the top-right corner. > - Make it a lot smaller and put on the top right corner of the text box, overlapping it like the capacity symbol does (maybe having a fixed-size "badge" for it). > - Make it a lot smaller and tuck it into the bottom-left-hand corner, below the first discipline icon, where it can be covered up by the hologram of a card sleeve. > - Ditch having an expansion symbol, but instead have an abbreviation (like SOC, LON, JYH, 3ED, etc.) in between the artist and copyright notices. > > There is a LOT I like about this layout concept. It's fresh. It's clean. It's uncluttered. It looks new - which could be especially important if the game comes back. It might very well be better for gameplay, identification, and user experience. It looks sharp. It looks great. On top of it all, it still looks and feels like V:TES. Bravo! > Ben I strongly agree with you. Seeing the new expansion full-bleed cards made by the guy I see a problem: the only way to identify the clan is the clan symbol and the texture on the disciplines "bar". So, the clan symbol must be bigger and the texture is necessary too. I guess people will take time to get used to this new layout but I guess this is completely normal, considering the game has more then 15 years with the current layout and change is painful most of the time. Archbishop of Vitória

Overall, i like those new concepts very much. As Ben correctly identified, clan icons need to be larger and expansion set smaller. I don't think that left bar have to be expanded. I'd gladly play with those mixed with post-camarilla edition ones, and of course entire full-bleed crypt. Loss of clarity isn't huge, as long as clan icon will be resized. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

> BenPeal wrote: > The mock-ups self-biased has done have square edges, whereas actual VTES cards have rounded edges. Compare the mockups with the DM and TU cards. Minor point, but I mention it for the sake of completeness. > > The clan symbol should be a bit larger, and ultimately should be the dominant icon on the card. > > The text box appears to have some transparency issues, such that the clan background is kinda bleeding through. It might be a layering thing, where the bleed-through is coming from the clan background instead of the art background. I'd prefer the latter. > the rounding of the corners are a pretty simple fix on my end. i'm not really emotionally invested in either option; i just went with the one that was less work. I feel that the clan symbol should probably stay within the confines of the discipline bar. with the sabbat clans, the wax drip hangs off the bar, which if you look closely several of the Sabbat cards i've done the icon isn't very centered. I was trying to get the actual symbols to be approximately the same size. It's also struck me as odd that only the Sabbat Clans have the wax drip as it creates an inconsistency in the overall design and feel of the card. ideally it should probably be all or nothing. then again, I'd also be in favor of eliminating all of the antitribu clans and doing a mass errata replacing them with the original clan. i assume that i'm very much in the minority with that particular opinion. The text box is a pretty easy fix. i had wanted to have more of the clan pattern somewhere on the card. > There's also what to do with the expansion symbol. Some options: > > - Not have one at all, but I'm guessing most players want an expansion indicator of some kind. I gotta say, though, self-biased's original mockups with the Van Fleet art look fantastic without an expansion symbol. Compare those with the DM/TU mockups he did. The expansion symbol is a giant distraction. (side note: I have no idea why WW made the expansion symbol so large and its placement so odd in the present layout, but it drives me nuts.) > - Make the expansion symbol a lot smaller, and tuck it all the way into the top-right corner. > - Make it a lot smaller and put on the top right corner of the text box, overlapping it like the capacity symbol does (maybe having a fixed-size "badge" for it). > - Make it a lot smaller and tuck it into the bottom-left-hand corner, below the first discipline icon, where it can be covered up by the hologram of a card sleeve. > - Ditch having an expansion symbol, but instead have an abbreviation (like SOC, LON, JYH, 3ED, etc.) in between the artist and copyright notices. > my vote would be to shrink it and put in the top right corner of the card, so that it's there, but not in the way and dominating like it is now. I'll make some edits and see what you guys think.

I want THIS Gangrel Justicar ! And about Self Biased question about deleting antitribu clans and merging all base with antitribu : It would be very weird rule-wise because of things like brujah getting gang territory, waste management operation AND new carthage and brujah debate... Or foundation exhibit AND toreador grand bal... Or rachel brandywine with an enchanted marrionette... And other question : what is the "default sect" of brujah ?

> self wrote: > I feel that the clan symbol should probably stay within the confines of the discipline bar. with the sabbat clans, the wax drip hangs off the bar, which if you look closely several of the Sabbat cards i've done the icon isn't very centered. I was trying to get the actual symbols to be approximately the same size. It's also struck me as odd that only the Sabbat Clans have the wax drip as it creates an inconsistency in the overall design and feel of the card. ideally it should probably be all or nothing. > The main thing here is making sure that the clan of the vampire is readily identifiable from across the table. The clan symbol might be large enough as is, but some have commented their concern that the side stripe with the clan background might be too small for easy recognition. Some comments: - The side stripe might be the right size anyway, provided that the background for each clan is distinctive enough. This might require (some) new backgrounds. - The clan symbol might be large enough as is (contained within the stripe). It might not. - The dramatically increased size of the portrait might contribute to improved identification of vampires from across the table, perhaps making changes to clan symbol size and clan background redundant. I suspect we won't really know for sure until we test a few different layout options. > There's also what to do with the expansion symbol. Some options: > > > my vote would be to shrink it and put in the top right corner of the card, so that it's there, but not in the way and dominating like it is now. I'll make some edits and see what you guys think. > > How about we try two different options: "Your Way" - don't increase the size of the non-Sabbat clan symbols, shrink expansion symbol and put in top right corner "My Way" - increase the size of non-Sabbat clan symbols to match that of Sabbat clan symbols, eliminate expansion symbol and replace with acronym (DM, TU, FN, SOC, etc) in between artist and copyright notice

this set has rounded corners, a white text box at 70% opacity, and a dramatically reduced in size set icon (which can always grow smaller). I've truncated the number of vampires i'm using as the whole process is somewhat time consuming even with using the card maker and taking snapshots of the resulting pdf.

actually you should put the right expansion symbols on the right vampires. I don't know if this is just a test thing, but you used unaligned symbol on Danse macabre cards. Archbishop of Vitória

> Wand wrote: > actually you should put the right expansion symbols on the right vampires. I don't know if this is just a test thing, but you used unaligned symbol on Danse macabre cards. > It's just a test of the layout. If we do adopt it, then we can worry about the accuracy of the data on the cards.

> Wand wrote: > actually you should put the right expansion symbols on the right vampires. I don't know if this is just a test thing, but you used unaligned symbol on Danse macabre cards. > I use a separate program to fill in all of the relevant details like Name, expansion symbol, Disciplines, text in the text box, and capacity. There are some limitations to the program that i have to work around. Truth be told i could have put in the appropriate symbol for Danse Macabre, but in a fit of laziness i decided against it. normally, the shell has a transparent spot for pictures to go in, but i'm basically generating the entire thing in photoshop, and using the program to fill in the text. round two is coming up very shortly.

> self wrote: > > I feel that the clan symbol should probably stay within the confines of the discipline bar. with the sabbat clans, the wax drip hangs off the bar, which if you look closely several of the Sabbat cards i've done the icon isn't very centered. I was trying to get the actual symbols to be approximately the same size. It's also struck me as odd that only the Sabbat Clans have the wax drip as it creates an inconsistency in the overall design and feel of the card. ideally it should probably be all or nothing. then again, I'd also be in favor of eliminating all of the antitribu clans and doing a mass errata replacing them with the original clan. i assume that i'm very much in the minority with that particular opinion. [/i] > I'm also in this minority. @Timo: default sect for brujah is camarilla, even after merge of sects. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

this set again features the translucent text box and rounded corners of the previous set. Clan icons have been slightly enlarged, and there is no wax drop. due to being enlarged some icons have parts that hang off both sides of the bar, resulting in some clipping. it looked profoundly worse to have the icon off center (with the exception of the goofy assamite icon which has never known its place) than it did to have some clipping occur. I can't really make them much bigger without pushing the icons off-center. The fade gradient at the top of the bar was more consistently applied between all of the bars. Also, these cards are very slightly smaller to keep certain scaling artifacts from appearing (turns out my pdf viewer's default setting for fullscreen is a very arbitrary 204%).

> Timo wrote: > I want THIS Gangrel Justicar ! > > And about Self Biased question about deleting antitribu clans and merging all base with antitribu : > > It would be very weird rule-wise because of things like brujah getting gang territory, waste management operation AND new carthage and brujah debate... > > Or foundation exhibit AND toreador grand bal... > > Or rachel brandywine with an enchanted marrionette... > > And other question : what is the "default sect" of brujah ? > doing so would require a positively MASSIVE amount of errata, altering requirements of the affected cards to specify sect as well as clan. So something that required !Ventrue would say "requires a Sabbat Ventrue" or some such, but it would lead to other weirdness as well when you bring in clans that have significant mixes of sect.

side by side comparison: (v1/v2) i think i like v2, more. the clan icons pop a little more. though i do miss the expansion icon. then again, i was super disappointed when L5R went to just plain black borders so your mileage may vary.

> self wrote: > side by side comparison: (v1/v2) > > i think i like v2, more. the clan icons pop a little more. though i do miss the expansion icon. then again, i was super disappointed when L5R went to just plain black borders so your mileage may vary. > I like more v1. To me v2 is slightly too dominant and I don't like how some clan icons crop at left border. If the clan icons need to be more recognizable, I'd go with v2 because their clan symbols really stand out (well, I'd make them slightly smaller, but not much). Anyway, thank you for your effort Self. You've done tremendous job! ---- Banging trashcans, breaking windows We'll wake you up tonight We like the good time, we scream and shout And that's what fun's about

There's no way these templates could fit wrong with such great artwork congrats everyone involved.

A vote for V2 - especially for scratching the ugly blood splotch of the antitribu - but with smaller icons. They're too big and too dominant right now, and they're clipping at the edges or spilling over. I think recognizability isn't really a big deal given the clearly identifiable pattern of the side strip.

Another note: While every portrait so far has a dark lower edge, it's possible that there could be one with lighter colors. This could result in poor color contrast with the white text of the artist and copyright notices. I recommend a dark gradient at the lower edge of the card.

> BenPeal wrote: > Another note: > > While every portrait so far has a dark lower edge, it's possible that there could be one with lighter colors. This could result in poor color contrast with the white text of the artist and copyright notices. I recommend a dark gradient at the lower edge of the card. > I don't think that you're wrong, but i don't think that it's going to be a frequent occurrence.

also, i'm going to take a break from working on this for a day or two. my ass hurts from all the time i've spent at the computer today.

We all know that this is the "full bleed" card you came here to see anyway:

I like the Jyhad themed sidebars. Brujah leather, malk white tile, and gangrel grass is very distinguishable from across 4 feet of table. This is one of the first threads creating this much buzz over art. Hats off to self-biased, these are great.

> self wrote: > also, i'm going to take a break from working on this for a day or two. my ass hurts from all the time i've spent at the computer today. > Well deserved break, too, your work is amazing!

> BenPeal wrote: > Another note: > > While every portrait so far has a dark lower edge, it's possible that there could be one with lighter colors. This could result in poor color contrast with the white text of the artist and copyright notices. I recommend a dark gradient at the lower edge of the card. > You can add a very thin outline to the text (thing that should have been done with True Brujah vampires for instance, you couldn't read the illustrator name). Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Very impressive work by the way. I prefer v1 since it keeps a continuity with the clan symbols and making it bigger isn't that important if the side bar has a strong individuality. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

I'm honestly astonished at how much positive feedback the idea has gotten, and i'd like to convey a most sincere thank you to everyone who's contributed to providing feedback. A few things for people to think about, though: Everything evolves; Gameplay, functionality, layouts, &c. Change for good or ill can be difficult to bear. I see a few sticking points when it comes to how the design is fine-tuned. Clan Icon: just how big should it be? For the Sabbat clans, their icons are significantly smaller so that they fit in the wax splat. Wax Splat: it's currently only used for Sabbat clans and isn't a consistent element in the design of all crypt cards. the splat also obscures the fade of the bar, making it look like the bar just ends at the splat (though it occurs to me that in art as in life, things end at the splat). I feel it should be splats for everyone, or no splats at all, leaning toward no splats. splat, splaty, splat. Set Icon: I think we can all agree that the set icon for crypt cards is obviously compensating for something. I like how clean the Full Bleed cards look without it, but a part of me still wants to have that set icon SOMEWHERE.

dammit. i promised myself i wouldn't work on this today, but idle hands and what have you. Wax splat test. buffed the clan icons, and tamed the white outline a bit. raw file, no text/disciplines. same size icons, without the wax splat:

To complete what I said earlier, Gangrel antitribu is a typical example where removing the Sabbat seal would make it confusing, between Gangrel, !Gangrel and Arhimanes. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > To complete what I said earlier, Gangrel antitribu is a typical example where removing the Sabbat seal would make it confusing, between Gangrel, !Gangrel and Arhimanes. > you're probably right, but here's at least how the two look. I'm already running late for an appointment, so y'all will just have to imagine how regular gangrel look. [original/enhanced/nosplat]

I like the "enhanced" look best, myself. That wax seal is a handy visual id, and in the full-bleed design having the clan symbol be a bit larger makes sense.

Keep the seal. We don't want to alter the 20 yo icons.

> Pascal wrote: > Keep the seal. We don't want to alter the 20 yo icons. > Counterpoint: it's hideous.

> DeathInABottle wrote: > > > Pascal wrote: > > Keep the seal. We don't want to alter the 20 yo icons. > > > Counterpoint: it's hideous. > this is precisely what i meant about change being difficult. In my mind, V:tes suffers from a few legacy issues, and to me "because we've always done it this way" isn't always a good answer to "why aren't we doing things differently?" i mean, i get it. I truly do. It'd be an awkward transition to lose The Splat, but is it truly necessary for the design? do we really even need expansion icons anymore? i mean, it must be hard enough to come up with names that don't sound ridiculously awful, let alone drying to come up with an expansion icon that isn't a skull, ankh or whatever. as much as i really don't like The Splat on an intellectual level, i know from habit that something's missing and it's unsettling. don't get me wrong, i'm pretty sure my shitty opinions will get smacked down mercilessly. i'm just thrilled that we're actually talking about this sort of thing.

I prefer v1. Clan symbols on v2 are too large and looks awful. We could also remove expansion symbol but it's not bad when it's smaller not usual and moved more to the top left (like in v1). Cards without the splat looks a little better but removing it and changing to full bleed would make it really hard to recognize some clan dirrerences so that's probably not a good idea

For me, bigger clan icons with wax seal to keep it consistent with existing cards yet increased visibility. I'd love to see changed clan icons and mass errata, but it just can't be done without mass reprints. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

yeah, i think i'm going to have to say that the enhanced icon is going to be the way to go.

...i'm... beginning to think that i have a problem. one of the things that i have to correct is the rounding of the corners, as they look a little choppy.

i like the other Nicolaus Vermeulen picture, Adelain Davis is really nice. Good job!!

I'd like to hickjack the thread and say that while we are discussing extended art crypt, can we change regular crypt layout too? Keep the strip clan based and rest with clan backgroud too- with cvisible transition between those two. Of course with reduced in size/removed set icon. If we are getting re-design, why not do it right for both regular and extended art? Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

i'm not quite sure what you're asking. are you asking that the bar that's normally green marble also be the same texture as the rest of the clan background? i mean, i'd be all for re-upping some new clan backgrounds. it's been ten years since we've had new ones.

> self wrote: > ...i'm... beginning to think that i have a problem. > I'm glad that you have some problems... > self wrote: > one of the things that i have to correct is the rounding of the corners, as they look a little choppy. > Thanks for experimenting with other art, if not anything else but to show how various artists' work actually work as full-bleed. Gwendolyn really jumps out, but for some reason I like it more and more. ---- Banging trashcans, breaking windows We'll wake you up tonight We like the good time, we scream and shout And that's what fun's about

> self wrote: > i'm not quite sure what you're asking. are you asking that the bar that's normally green marble also be the same texture as the rest of the clan background? > > i mean, i'd be all for re-upping some new clan backgrounds. it's been ten years since we've had new ones. > Exactly, bar with the same texture as rest of the card, except that it's clear distinction between the bar and rest of the background to keep it closer to the current cards. I just think that uniform green color on every single crypt card make some clans disservice, notable example is Lasombra that look great in your full bleed version, and awful with green marble. On a side note, i'm all for new backgrounds, current ones are quite nice, but looks bit dated. But i think i'd like to see them implemented only if there will be actual print runs. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

> Lech wrote: > On a side note, i'm all for new backgrounds, current ones are quite nice, but looks bit dated. > I don't think it's a good reason to change. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Hi, The illustration from Nikolaus Vermeulen from CE is from Quinton Hoover.

> self wrote: > i mean, i get it. I truly do. It'd be an awkward transition to lose The Splat, but is it truly necessary for the design? do we really even need expansion icons anymore? i mean, it must be hard enough to come up with names that don't sound ridiculously awful, let alone drying to come up with an expansion icon that isn't a skull, ankh or whatever. > I would like to keep the expansion symbol, as it tells which set the card comes from. For instance, some players might like your Alex Camille or Badr illustrations, remember that they both come from the "broken column" set. Go to the page for The Unaligned, download files, and realize they're not there. However, we could probably make that icon smaller.

Hello, > Pascal wrote: > I would like to keep the expansion symbol, as it tells which set the card comes from. > As it should be like a promo, I cannot see the point. If you want to know from which set a card comes from, you have to check it on a software or internet. You will search it by name won't you? Searching it by name you will find every sets the card appears in... In order to avoid any kinds of possible confusion, maybe you could find a "promo" symbol to put on every "promo" card. I would say that is useless but that is only my personal opinion. Regards, Rémi. I am Rémi Cavaillé (), Barcelona (Spain). I was the Prince of Lyon (France) around 2003. I am now Official Judge and the 5th Prince of Barcelona. Enjoy VTES, Marvel Champions, L5R and more gaming activities in Khan Jugar: sites.google.com/view/khanjugar/

> Rémi wrote: > Hello, > > > Pascal wrote: > > I would like to keep the expansion symbol, as it tells which set the card comes from. > > > As it should be like a promo, I cannot see the point. > Says who? > > Rémi wrote: > If you want to know from which set a card comes from, you have to check it on a software or internet. You will search it by name won't you? Searching it by name you will find every sets the card appears in... > That's only if you remember the card's name. If you already have 2 cards from The Unaligned, and you notice that there's a neat 10-cap Gangrel that you want to use and that also comes from the broken column set, you don't have to remember that the name is Matasuntha. Just "Big gangrel, The Unaligned". Well. That's what I would do. But we can have both - name *and* icon !

> Pascal wrote: > > > Rémi wrote: > > Hello, > > > > > Pascal wrote: > > > I would like to keep the expansion symbol, as it tells which set the card comes from. > > > > > As it should be like a promo, I cannot see the point. > > > Says who? > I guess he is refering to the first post of self biased where he says those cards "make wonderful promos"

> Ankha wrote: > > > Lech wrote: > > On a side note, i'm all for new backgrounds, current ones are quite nice, but looks bit dated. > > > I don't think it's a good reason to change. > It's not a bad reason either. I won't cry if those are not changed, and green bar on the left is changed to the same color as the rest of background and clan/set icons are resized. I'll be happy camper in such case. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

> Lech wrote: > > > Ankha wrote: > > > > > Lech wrote: > > > On a side note, i'm all for new backgrounds, current ones are quite nice, but looks bit dated. > > > > > I don't think it's a good reason to change. > > > It's not a bad reason either. I won't cry if those are not changed, and green bar on the left is changed to the same color as the rest of background and clan/set icons are resized. > > I'll be happy camper in such case. > It is a bad reason, because it makes the game harder to learn: you'd have 3 different clan backgrounds for each clan to recognize. Imagine the game with two sets of cardtype icons (eg. two different icons for action modifiers). I can't see good reasons, and you not minding is not a good reason Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Pascal wrote: > > > Rémi wrote: > > As it should be like a promo, I cannot see the point. > > > Says who? > Well, in a recent thread where I was asking about altering card people says it was prohibited to rewrite any parts of the cards (title, clan and discipline symbols). As far as I understand the current discussions, those full bleed cards does not respect those modifications so that I (Who? I) assumed that this thread could not apply to regular cards... so this thread could apply to "promo" cards. And reprinting official cards is still prohibited, isn't it? Am I the only one who saw a non-The unaligned card in this thread? A Vampire called: Gwendolyne maybe. Anyway, sorry for the misunderstanding. Regards, Rémi. I am Rémi Cavaillé (), Barcelona (Spain). I was the Prince of Lyon (France) around 2003. I am now Official Judge and the 5th Prince of Barcelona. Enjoy VTES, Marvel Champions, L5R and more gaming activities in Khan Jugar: sites.google.com/view/khanjugar/

> Ankha wrote: > It is a bad reason, because it makes the game harder to learn: you'd have 3 different clan backgrounds for each clan to recognize. Imagine the game with two sets of cardtype icons (eg. two different icons for action modifiers). > I can't see good reasons, and you not minding is not a good reason > You already have two different ones, and crypt is less bothersome than library. Icons stayed the same, and while i don't like some of those (wax for sabbat clan), i think they'll stay mostly the same. I'd rather discuss another point i made, cards with background on green strip. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

> Rémi wrote: > > > Pascal wrote: > > > > > Rémi wrote: > > > As it should be like a promo, I cannot see the point. > > > > > Says who? > > > Well, in a recent thread where I was asking about altering card people says it was prohibited to rewrite any parts of the cards (title, clan and discipline symbols). As far as I understand the current discussions, those full bleed cards does not respect those modifications so that I (Who? I) assumed that this thread could not apply to regular cards... so this thread could apply to "promo" cards. > And reprinting official cards is still prohibited, isn't it? > > Am I the only one who saw a non-The unaligned card in this thread? A Vampire called: Gwendolyne maybe. > > Anyway, sorry for the misunderstanding. > Regards, > Rémi. > Rémi, I'm not acting as an official of VEKN. I'm an enthusiastic fan. I did a mock-up of Gwendolyn to illustrate how a Full Bleed Brujah card could look. I've been taking what criticism people have to offer and use that to produce a concept that everyone's happy with. Lech, i'm not quite sure what you're asking. are you asking for a side bar that is the same texture as the rest of the card? much like how master cards are? edit: like this?

Exactly this, even caitiff don't look utter trash with such design. Maybe not dirk, he look bad(sorry ben!). Any chance to see that new lasombra or giovanni? Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

> Lech wrote: > Exactly this, even caitiff don't look utter trash with such design. > > Maybe not dirk, he look bad(sorry ben!). Any chance to see that new lasombra or giovanni? > the artwork required a lot of doctoring so that it wouldn't look crappy when blown up. so here's Lech's idea, done with Lasombra: I see what you're getting at, but i don't think this works as well as you do. for me, the green bar is a unifying element that, much like The Dude's rug, really ties the room together in terms of design. The Clan Background works for the Full Bleed cards because there's no other elements there save for the white text box and capacity drop, and the bar still fulfills the role of a unifying element. edit: for comparison:

> Rémi wrote: > > > Pascal wrote: > > > > > Rémi wrote: > > > As it should be like a promo, I cannot see the point. > > > > > Says who? > > > Well, in a recent thread where I was asking about altering card people says it was prohibited to rewrite any parts of the cards (title, clan and discipline symbols). As far as I understand the current discussions, those full bleed cards does not respect those modifications so that I (Who? I) assumed that this thread could not apply to regular cards... so this thread could apply to "promo" cards. > And reprinting official cards is still prohibited, isn't it? > > Am I the only one who saw a non-The unaligned card in this thread? A Vampire called: Gwendolyne maybe. > > Anyway, sorry for the misunderstanding. > Regards, > Rémi. > Currently, these cards are cards that are not issued by the VEKN. They aren't even promos. Or Storyline. They're fan cards. The question that has risen in this thread is whether such layout should be imported to normal cards.

Hello, > self wrote: > Rémi, I'm not acting as an official of VEKN. I'm an enthusiastic fan. > I know and that is why I think that there is no use of the Expansion symbols (it is hard to keep every symbol, my point is that you should feel free to keep only those which are relevant for you). > Pascal wrote: > The question that has risen in this thread is whether such layout should be imported to normal cards. > My personal feeling is that two seperated points appeared in that thread and the official part "should" be placed in a second thread. Once more, sorry for the misunderstand. I've already stopped flooding this thread Best regards, Rémi. I am Rémi Cavaillé (), Barcelona (Spain). I was the Prince of Lyon (France) around 2003. I am now Official Judge and the 5th Prince of Barcelona. Enjoy VTES, Marvel Champions, L5R and more gaming activities in Khan Jugar: sites.google.com/view/khanjugar/

Full bleed cards would make PERFECT promos or precon encentives if we see print again. Think of it as a way better spin on the sketch variants. With this in mind, precon exclusives could use expansion symbol, and promos wouldnt really need one. This is one of tbe few threads where people are in favor of change, which is shocking around here, so it seems like a strong idea.

I'm back to work, so I've had to slow my pace on this, but I should be finished getting everything set up by Sunday. If someone on the design team could see fit to email or link me the original art used for Danse Macabre and The Unaligned, that would be wizard. I've almost got my upgraded copy of the vcm working properly, so hopefully I can put some playtest cards in people's hands relatively soon.

Files sent to your gmail account. V:EKN Website Coordinator

> self wrote: > ...i'm... beginning to think that i have a problem. > > one of the things that i have to correct is the rounding of the corners, as they look a little choppy. > are we going to talk about how these portraits are facing the opposite way?

amazing stuff dude. Archbishop of Vitória

How about this approach instead? (This design is crude, but I think it should be enough to convey the idea). The most relevant problems I see with the full bleed layout are: 1. The pieces of artwork not having been conceived for that format. Many of them have to be either flipped horizontally, or resized in such a way that several image composition issues arise. 2. The lateral bar not being continued until the upper margin, which leaves a useless (in my opinion) space that causes image composition issues. Therefore, I have tried to give a solution to both problems by extending the left bar to the top of the card and then strecth it therefrom to the right margin, thus partially framing the artwork and enlarging the clan background to make it more easily identifiable. V:EKN Website Coordinator

It makes sense, but I feel like it removes the openness of the full bleed format, which I take to be its main point.

IMHO, I would say the same, the open format brings the picture more in the spotlicght. Framing it again would be counter "creative" in this whole full bleed project. Just my two cents. - Prince of Karlsruhe, Germany

> Damnans wrote: > The pieces of artwork not having been conceived for that format. Many of them have to be either flipped horizontally, or resized in such a way that several image composition issues arise. > Sadly, they can't all be winners. Not all artwork is going to work perfectly with the format. > 2. The lateral bar not being continued until the upper margin, which leaves a useless (in my opinion) space that causes image composition issues. > > Therefore, I have tried to give a solution to both problems by extending the left bar to the top of the card and then strecth it therefrom to the right margin, thus partially framing the artwork and enlarging the clan background to make it more easily identifiable. > we apparently have a difference of opinion, but i have to agree with DeathInABottle and Erol. I'm certainly NOT advocating that all crypt cards be moved to this format from here on out. I'm just trying to show what such a format could look like. edit: all things considered, the overwhelming majority of the pictures looked really good... there were what, six vamps that i had to tool around with? i'll post them later.

Part of the appeal to people may be the "Heads Up Display" style that those full-bleed cards have without the obvious border. It looks a little more like a computer generated stats/character sheet. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

I have to agree with DeathInABottle and Erol - and Self Biased. Having background pattern on top of the picture takes out something... perhaps openness of the format that Self Biased first designed. Edit: Thank you Damnas! It's very important for us all to consider all ideas and view points. ---- Banging trashcans, breaking windows We'll wake you up tonight We like the good time, we scream and shout And that's what fun's about

Then why not removing the left bar altogether? V:EKN Website Coordinator

That look good like that.

How would the table look like if I have two Lasombra and one Kyasid on the table? Will people be able to tell easily the clans of each vampire? I would keep a clan bar that helps identifying the clans of the vampires. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Damnans wrote: > Then why not removing the left bar altogether? > I think that clan symbol should be on this 1,5x bigger and moved up to corner before name. This way you can tell the clan from other side of table without clan background. Marko, Prince of Helsinki

> Ankha wrote: > How would the table look like if I have two Lasombra and one Kyasid on the table? Will people be able to tell easily the clans of each vampire? > I would keep a clan bar that helps identifying the clans of the vampires. > This might solve that problem: V:EKN Website Coordinator

> a-e wrote: > > > Damnans wrote: > > Then why not removing the left bar altogether? > > [...] > > > > I think that clan symbol should be on this 1,5x bigger and moved up to corner before name. This way you can tell the clan from other side of table without clan background. > > > That would leave less room for card names, like happened with Camarilla Edition (where the left bar reached to the top of the card). But that idea had to be abandoned due to lack of space for long card names. > V:EKN Website Coordinator

IMo the best are the last ones posted by self biased (Gwendolyn and Nikolaus). They look amazing and a side bar gives unity among the clan members and helps in recognizing it. I would just add expansion symbol in top right corner, but much smaller than it's on cards from latests expansions.

> Damnans wrote: > > > a-e wrote: > > > > > Damnans wrote: > > > Then why not removing the left bar altogether? > > > [...] > > > > > > I think that clan symbol should be on this 1,5x bigger and moved up to corner before name. This way you can tell the clan from other side of table without clan background. > > > > > > > > That would leave less room for card names, like happened with Camarilla Edition (where the left bar reached to the top of the card). But that idea had to be abandoned due to lack of space for long card names. > > > Well you can drop the set symbol to get more space for longer names. > Marko, Prince of Helsinki

Retaining the left bar allows not only for the recognizability of clans, but also for consistency with the formatting of library cards.

> DeathInABottle wrote: > Retaining the left bar allows not only for the recognizability of clans, but also for consistency with the formatting of library cards. > Like this? V:EKN Website Coordinator

Yep! Though you could blend the clan colour into the colour of the background art, too, as self-biased did in the previous iteration.

Hmmm... but to put the clan symbol there u needed to take off the expansion symbol. You should left the clan on his original place. Also, what's the next step? A foil card? :P:P Vitor Hugo Sabbat. Vitor gets +1 vote against any referendum of a political action.

also, as long as we're going completely off the rails when it comes to crypt layout and design...

I'd be more tempted to make it the background as a title-bar than the text box. Also, the disciplines could be larger, but the vertical format is 'traditional' so probably a little easier to make for the transition. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > I'd be more tempted to make it the background as a title-bar than the text box. > Also, the disciplines could be larger, but the vertical format is 'traditional' so probably a little easier to make for the transition. > how about a little of both?

I liked this one. What about out the clan symbol on the down-left corner, under the disciplines, and the expansionista symbol on its place? Vitor Hugo Sabbat. Vitor gets +1 vote against any referendum of a political action.

Under the text box as in my previous offering?

i think i'm going to make a separate thread for my ramblings on card layout and design. i don't really want to detract from the momentum the full bleed cards have right now.

Getting back on topic, here are the flipped/altered versions that Damnans was talking about: generally speaking, the original image is on the left, and the altered version is on the right.

I like this type of full bleed cards the most. - Prince of Karlsruhe, Germany

They're really good. I maintain that the wax/blood splotch is a little ugly, but whatever. If it could be shrunk so that it doesn't hang over the edge of the side-bar I'd be happy. Also: would there be a big uproar if the Assamite symbol were turned 90 degrees so that it fit, too?

The new flipped cards look nice. Although I think I still like the original post's cards best. (Probably has something to do with the artwork and very vibrant colors though...) The discipline symbols could be made slightly larger though. You know, to increase visibility. Especially since there is probably space for them. I don't have any probs with the wax splotch of the Sabbat vampires. (I wouldn't rotate the Assamite clan symbol as DeathInABottle suggested, BTW) The recent suggestion from Gines looked OK too, but I'd lower the clan symbol a bit so the name would be topmost and clan symbol, traditionally, under it. The discipline symbols are a bit bigger (which is doubleplusgood!) in it too compared to the Unaligned cards self biased just showcased. [/quote] Finnish Politics!

> self wrote: > how about a little of both? > Way better than the previous one. Which was, perhaps, a too radical a change in the design. Biggest problem in it (the previous design), for me, the low visibility of disciplines. But it is great that you keep on trying totally new designs -who knows what kind of awesomeness you still unearth! Thanks for all the effort! Finnish Politics!

Lönkka: the more I look at it, the more I like it. It's crisp, fresh, and modern. I was using the style of the third generation legend of the five rings cards as inspiration.

:Taps microphone: Is this thing still on? Some of the cards have a gradient at the top to aid in card readability.

gradient is much appreciated. new design is interesting. UDHR18/19/27

I personally don't like the gradient at the top of the card. It gives a blurry aspect that reminds me of the video effect used in soaps on the 80s to evoke a flashback (especially on Wargoul or Leather Jacket) Otherwise, I like the non-blurry ones, even though you lose a lot of artwork due to the layout (clearly seen on Funeral Wake) Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

I tried to do the best i could to clean up the 'blurry' images, but there's really only so much that can be done sometimes. I basically had to take photos of my cards to get that quality, as most of the stuff i found online wasn't nearly the resolution i needed. I don't think these are quite as successful as the crypt cards. I think it might be the fact the text box is as large as it is. though, this really does go to showcase that not all cards work well with this format.

Food for thought: for me, the entire feel of Funeral Wake changes with the smaller text box. also, i was goofing around with text formatting and the VCM. I'm aware that there is some procedural weirdness going on. i still can't get the newest version i have to work properly.

What about variable text box (bigger for cards with more text). Or just size between big and small one ? I really like your design, and i would totally play such cards. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

> self wrote: > I tried to do the best i could to clean up the 'blurry' images, > I wasn't talking about the art, but the gradient at the top of the card that gives a 'blurry' aspect, contrary to the sharp aspect when there's no gradient. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

"Zephyr" is barely readable on this version

I agree, you do need a much stronger outline on the card names because you don't have a guaranteed background which will let them 'stand out'. I like the version without the 'top gradient'. I don't think the smaller boxes will be easy to read on a card printout, they could get well below the probably 8pt print. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > I agree, you do need a much stronger outline on the card names because you don't have a guaranteed background which will let them 'stand out'. > It needs an outline, but not necessarily thicker. Screen display and print display are very different. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

gradient or thicker outline of card names; either works for me UDHR18/19/27

> Pascal wrote: > "Zephyr" is barely readable on this version > > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > I agree, you do need a much stronger outline on the card names because you don't have a guaranteed background which will let them 'stand out'. > > I like the version without the 'top gradient'. > > I don't think the smaller boxes will be easy to read on a card printout, they could get well below the probably 8pt print. > > Ankha wrote: > It needs an outline, but not necessarily thicker. Screen display and print display are very different. > > mirddes wrote: > gradient or thicker outline of card names; either works for me > first off: I currently don't have much (or any) control over the outlining of the card title. that's a function of the program i use to compile the card, an older version Ankha's VCM (I still haven't gotten the new one to work properly). regarding the readability and gradient (particularly on Zephyr): they can't all be winners. Some artwork will naturally lend itself to the full bleed format, some will look awful, regardless of how awesome the actual piece in question is. Someone, somewhere in this thread suggested for one alternate version or another, that there be no 'card background' for the card title. One of the best functions of that background is to make the card title readable.

so, i've got a john van fleet shaped artwork boner. deal with it. clan novel full bleed bullshit.

> self wrote: > so, i've got a john van fleet shaped artwork boner. deal with it. > > clan novel full bleed bullshit. > Gorgeous! Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Those look like they should be printed por legal play! Very Nice! Is the full bleed layout option still being tested?

im honestly not sure. I lost interest in getting my copy of the VCM properly updated when it proved a little more complicated than my computer skills allowed. I should probably just send Vincent the background files I used so he can do a "final" test print.

It would be sad if your experiments went to waste. I just read through the entire thread and I can say it would be a refreshing change. Frame changes would help the future VEKN sets feel fresh, and it could be picked up, should a proposal to resurect the game arise. Anyway, thank you for sharing your experiments with us.

> self wrote: > im honestly not sure. I lost interest in getting my copy of the VCM properly updated when it proved a little more complicated than my computer skills allowed. I should probably just send Vincent the background files I used so he can do a "final" test print. > Sure, I can try to make it work (though getting the right format of resources is a hassle). Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Where can I get the VCM? I'd like to give it a try, please.

I found myself inspired after some intense Masquerade roleplaying this weekend. I've redone the Assamite template so that it pops more. I've redone the Giovanni template so that it uses the original, albeit edited background. I've also redone the Followers of Set template using the original background, but i'm not currently happy how it's come out. [Assamite] [Giovanni] [Followers of Set] once i get a Setite template that i can be happy with, i'm going to go back and make the clan icons more consistent across the board. Then i'm going to try to standardize all of the fading on the clan bars; i've been winging it up until now.

These look great! I wasn't all that convinced by previous iterations, but you've absolutely nailed it here. The design is well balanced, very clear and visually stunning. Nice Job. Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook

> Ankha wrote: > > > self wrote: > > im honestly not sure. I lost interest in getting my copy of the VCM properly updated when it proved a little more complicated than my computer skills allowed. I should probably just send Vincent the background files I used so he can do a "final" test print. > > > Sure, I can try to make it work (though getting the right format of resources is a hassle). > all i'm doing is saving the whole thing as "_filename.jpg" and changing the clan in the CSV to generate the cards to "filename" to get these to generate.

> Ke. wrote: > These look great! > > I wasn't all that convinced by previous iterations, but you've absolutely nailed it here. The design is well balanced, very clear and visually stunning. Nice Job. > i'll admit that things got weird for a few pages, but these aren't far off from the 'final' version of anything else that i'd posted. i'm glad you like them, though

> self wrote: > > > Ankha wrote: > > > > > self wrote: > > > im honestly not sure. I lost interest in getting my copy of the VCM properly updated when it proved a little more complicated than my computer skills allowed. I should probably just send Vincent the background files I used so he can do a "final" test print. > > > > > Sure, I can try to make it work (though getting the right format of resources is a hassle). > > > all i'm doing is saving the whole thing as "_filename.jpg" and changing the clan in the CSV to generate the cards to "filename" to get these to generate. > I suspected something like that. To make it work generically, it would require either a transparent PDF with the left marble stripe, or an image if transparency is not supported. Either way, they must be CMYK. Do you have a sample of left stripe before it's blend with the art? Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Assamites especially look GREAT! Finnish Politics!

Assamite and Giovanni looks bad ass! I'm not sure wether the set icon should be on top, it feels cluncky with longer card names. The Followers of Set strip is plain and helps the card maintain a clean feeling. I kinda like it like this honnestly. Overall, I hope these are being taken into account when designing new sets. I feel that this layout helps the player feel closer to the characters/abilities rather than just the game's mechanics by giving the art a more proeminent role on the card. Also has the potential to make the game feel a little less stale.

> Ankha wrote: > > > self wrote: > > > > > Ankha wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > self wrote: > > > > im honestly not sure. I lost interest in getting my copy of the VCM properly updated when it proved a little more complicated than my computer skills allowed. I should probably just send Vincent the background files I used so he can do a "final" test print. > > > > > > > Sure, I can try to make it work (though getting the right format of resources is a hassle). > > > > > > > > all i'm doing is saving the whole thing as "_filename.jpg" and changing the clan in the CSV to generate the cards to "filename" to get these to generate. > > > I suspected something like that. To make it work generically, it would require either a transparent PDF with the left marble stripe, or an image if transparency is not supported. Either way, they must be CMYK. > Do you have a sample of left stripe before it's blend with the art? > i can probably make this happen when I get home from work in the afternoon. What's your preferred format?

> self wrote: > > > Ankha wrote: > > > > > self wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ankha wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > self wrote: > > > > > im honestly not sure. I lost interest in getting my copy of the VCM properly updated when it proved a little more complicated than my computer skills allowed. I should probably just send Vincent the background files I used so he can do a "final" test print. > > > > > > > > > Sure, I can try to make it work (though getting the right format of resources is a hassle). > > > > > > > > > > > all i'm doing is saving the whole thing as "_filename.jpg" and changing the clan in the CSV to generate the cards to "filename" to get these to generate. > > > > > I suspected something like that. To make it work generically, it would require either a transparent PDF with the left marble stripe, or an image if transparency is not supported. Either way, they must be CMYK. > > Do you have a sample of left stripe before it's blend with the art? > > > i can probably make this happen when I get home from work in the afternoon. What's your preferred format? > any format as long as it's transparent and cmyk. Let's say pdf, or tiff Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Wow, these are gorgeous! I would strongly support the VEKN if it wanted to update the look of cards for future pdf sets. These (especially the vampire cards) are so much better than the portrait frame currently used. Lets see the art and not the frame! Check out my VTES blog: Gaming with BS I also host a google doc which separates the TWDA into clans . That means I track how often clans win, which crypt groups get used, and how many people attend events. You can access all of that info here:

> Ankha wrote: > any format as long as it's transparent and cmyk. Let's say pdf, or tiff > cmyk, *.tiff. gotcha. I'm going to take a run at getting all of the fades consistent for you, too.

so, uh, yeah. not happening tonight. i've filled myself with tuna steaks, veggies, and an urge to watch breaking bad on netflix.

One small point: because the Giovanni clan symbol is a hard-edged square, and because it's so large, it looks like it ends the marble strip on the left side. You can't really notice the fade. Maybe reduce the size of the symbol or fade the strip further up.

> DeathInABottle wrote: > One small point: because the Giovanni clan symbol is a hard-edged square, and because it's so large, it looks like it ends the marble strip on the left side. You can't really notice the fade. Maybe reduce the size of the symbol or fade the strip further up. > i used the Giovanni icon as a reference for the topmost point of any other icon. I see your point, though. When I go back and make all the fades consistent I'm planning on getting the outlines of the clan icons consistent as well.

Seems like FFG is using the same idea in next month's Netrunner release. www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2016/1/11/run-like-a-champ/ Finnish Politics!

> Lönkka wrote: > Seems like FFG is using the same idea in next month's Netrunner release. > > www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2016/1/11/run-like-a-champ/ > As I understand guys from FFG (and WoC design team by the way) are reading this forum. NC Russia

> elotar wrote: > > > Lönkka wrote: > > Seems like FFG is using the same idea in next month's Netrunner release. > > > > www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2016/1/11/run-like-a-champ/ > > > As I understand guys from FFG (and WoC design team by the way) are reading this forum. > They already had some promo cards in full bleed, such as Identity cards. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

the concept isn't exactly new, either.

Have had a chance to take a shot at re-designing library cards. The idea is to make them as easy to understand as possible. Took some input from Ankha's blog post and some from Self Biased full sleeved stuff. If I have a chance will work on a crypt card also. This design works with the standard "boxed" image artwork on cards. Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook

Replies on this other topic: www.vekn.net/forum/generic-v-tes-discussion/75093-library-card-redesign#77501 Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

it's been a while, hasn't it? My skills have improved over the last several years, and I remembered that I never did get around to doing the Laibon clans. So I came up with a new process that wasn't just taking the top part of the card and enlarging it and using more elements of the card background without distorting nearly as much. I figured it would be tidier if I just bumped this thread with new content. I'm planning on going back through and redoing just about everything from the ground up.

Somehow these look better here than on Facebook. I kinda like the art bleeding on the sidebar at the top, especially on Aisata. Finnish Politics!

I like these, but I really confused with the left sidebar. Why is it necessary? I believe it's the outdated element and adds nothing to the card, except it hinders part of the image.

> Legion wrote: > I like these, but I really confused with the left sidebar. Why is it necessary? I believe it's the outdated element and adds nothing to the card, except it hinders part of the image. > To be fair, it is. But, on the other hand disciplines have to be somewhere. Just like gfx clues about the clan in question. I'd say that removing the bar, and making new horizontal one on the very bottom would be best usability wise (and removing sect from the text box, replacing it with the icon). Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

ohhh awesome I am death. Paul Kersey, Death Wish

I made the discipline icons slightly bigger and gave them a drop shadow. I also made the text box wider and it doesn't look preposterously goofy.

SO. IT'S BEEN A WHILE. With the power of AI generated images being what it is, I decided to hitch that up to my incredible hubris and re-imagine the G1 Brujah vampires using my "modern" or "Half Bleed" template. The results "Fair" to "acceptable." Anyone worried that AI art will eclipse genuine artists has never had to actually coax something usable let alone something "close enough for funk." PLEASE. SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL ARTIST. at the very least so that i don't have to witness hellscape after hellscape. Now, for the G1 Brujah

Oh wow. Indeed the results in terms of illustrations vary. But still, impressive. I really love this layout

Can you share which generator you use for alteration of the original images? Some fairly nice results so far, sometimes stunning. <INSERT CLEVER QUOTATION HERE>

> alf wrote: > Can you share which generator you use for alteration of the original images? > > Some fairly nice results so far, sometimes stunning. > I used Midjourney AI

Recent results are great! Really like layout - the sweetest spot between too much image and too much "standard" parts. Some images is questionable (anime Lupo, Dre, Don, and old Yuri is so much more stylish!), but some are decent - like Appolo, Black Cat, Uma.