All previous ideas are "attacks" on the card itself. But maybe let's do something with the reason, why this card is so good.
The reason can be worded differently, but I prefer:
"Blood on vampire is less valuable than pool".
How much less is a question, but I think ratio is near 1:2
By now my only decks without 4+ villeins are really in need of blood, like shambling Giovanni, kiasid s/b, ravnos e t.s.
We just need to invent something valuable to do with blood on minions, like more cards costing 3+ blood, some additional "default" ability or else.
It will collaterally "kill' all blood dolls and vessels, but I think it'll be fine too.
NC Russia
A change like "a vampire may have only one Villein" might be easier, but I don't know that it would do enough to address the Minion Tap/Villein disparity. That and ruling "Play as written" on the blood part
Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one.
-Friedrich Nietzsche
brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/
> brandonsantacruz wrote:
> A change like "a vampire may have only one Villein" might be easier, but I don't know that it would do enough to address the Minion Tap/Villein disparity. That and ruling "Play as written" on the blood part
>
I think making Villein say "A Minion can only have 1 Villein" would do a lot to address the Minion Tap/Villein disparity. As Minion Tap wouldn't be (for all intents and purposes) just worse than Villein anymore. And would make including the card not such a total no brainer. That is, for my money, the best thing to do to it.
> brandonsantacruz wrote:
> A change like "a vampire may have only one Villein" might be easier, but I don't know that it would do enough to address the Minion Tap/Villein disparity. That and ruling "Play as written" on the blood part
>
I really like that idea. It is elegant, simple, and kinda gives back the point to minion tap.
On a similar note, i always felt that Pentex could be fixed most easily by adding : "Only one Pentex Subversion can be played in a game".
> Pendargon wrote:
> On a similar note, i always felt that Pentex could be fixed most easily by adding : "Only one Pentex Subversion can be played in a game".
>
That would make it so much stronger... If the Pentex owner can defend it, the only way to get rid of it is to contest. What you suggest would remove this possibility.
> Pendargon wrote:
> On a similar note, i always felt that Pentex could be fixed most easily by adding : "Only one Pentex Subversion can be played in a game".
>
"A Methuselah may play only one Research in a game." is much better, I think.
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/
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My Angry Witches deck, which is starting to get some real steam as I've had the chance to play it more and adjusted the allies... It would love people playing lots of villeins. It doesn't care so much if you have pool, your vampires better come up with a good plan or they are hunting more turns than not. Then while you're 'pants are down' on 0-blood it will bleed you out.
It's starting to really inspire fear in others when I put a Biothaum onto a Succubus or Nephandus... hehehehe Allies w/ 2-agg handstrikes... maneuver + press + ranged + close + your strikes don't hurt so much... heheheheheeee
But on the Villein topic.
#1: Make it only playable on vampires with 2+ blood.
#2: Make it one per minion OR Cost +1 pool for each villein in play (just like Minion Tap)
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
Villein. Master: Trifle: Put this card on a vampire you control and move 5 blood from that vampire to your pool. Minion Tap cards cost an additional pool. Villein costs an additional pool to play on this vampire.
There. Problem solved.
> Aaron wrote:
> Put this card on a vampire you control and move 5 blood from that vampire to your pool.
>
This doesn't do what you want it to do.
This will take all of their blood if they are at 5 or less, but won't prevent you from playing it when they have less than 5.
Is that your goal?
> Adonai wrote:
>
> > Aaron wrote:
> > Put this card on a vampire you control and move 5 blood from that vampire to your pool.
> >
> This doesn't do what you want it to do.
> This will take all of their blood if they are at 5 or less, but won't prevent you from playing it when they have less than 5.
>
> Is that your goal?
>
Yes. The revision changes the purpose of Villein to getting a reasonable rebate on your expensive vampires instead of just getting the vampire for free and then getting another MPA after that. The card now has an appropriate power level for a trifle because of its lack of flexibility. You could still empty your IC during one master phase using Villein; it just would take two Villeins and you'd get 10 pool instead of 11. And you'd still have the benefit of nerfing everyone else's Minion Taps.
The power of the Villein->Giant's Blood combo is moderated. Villein goes in certain decks while Minion Tap goes in other decks. Villein goes from being funcionally the same as Minion Tap while nerfing it by name, to being functionally inferior to Minion Tap while nerfing it by name but still being very playable.
Sorry, I can't see how to reply to author on this message board... No I don't have any bright ideas for new uses of blood on vampires.
> Non-existant user wrote:
> OK, let me reformulate.
>
> There are already useful things to do with blood: soak damage.
>
Do you know there are strike:combat ends cards in this game?
NC Russia
> Aaron wrote:
> Sorry, I can't see how to reply to author on this message board... No I don't have any bright ideas for new uses of blood on vampires.
>
"quote" option is very good for it
NC Russia
I'm very disappointed that debate, again, takes form of different ideas to nerf villein. I think by now it must be obvious that nearly everyone got their own idea of the best new wording, and nobody is listening to any arguments of others.
I’m trying to "break stalemate" by persuading out of the box thinking.
Some examples:
1. Innate abilities of the vampires.
“All vampires with the discipline in their profile once per turn by spending 1 blood can use its ability.”
pot: H and or wep strike with +1 str
dom: bleed action with +1
for: treat agg as nomal
pre: +1 vote
obt: burn opposing ally
cel: manuver
ets
2. Good actions, costing 3+ blood, like shambling hordes, sensory deprivation of heroic might for each discipline.
NC Russia
> elotar wrote:
> 1. Innate abilities of the vampires.
> “All vampires with the discipline in their profile once per turn by spending 1 blood can use its ability.”
> pot: H and or wep strike with +1 str
> dom: bleed action with +1
> for: treat agg as nomal
> pre: +1 vote
> obt: burn opposing ally
> cel: manuver
> ets
>
So not!
> 2. Good actions, costing 3+ blood, like shambling hordes, sensory deprivation of heroic might for each discipline.
>
Why not?
"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise
garourimgazette.wordpress.com/
www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines
> elotar wrote:
> Some examples:
> 1. Innate abilities of the vampires.
> “All vampires with the discipline in their profile once per turn by spending 1 blood can use its ability.”
> pot: H and or wep strike with +1 str
> dom: bleed action with +1
> for: treat agg as nomal
> pre: +1 vote
> obt: burn opposing ally
> cel: manuver
> ets
> 2. Good actions, costing 3+ blood, like shambling hordes, sensory deprivation of heroic might for each discipline.
>
Neither of these ideas will do anything at all to address the issues that Villein present. As, generally speaking, if folks plan on Villeining their minions, they also plan on filling them back up, one way or the other (GB/Lilith's Blessing/Voter Cap/Taste/whatever). So if the incentive to not Villein was "Hey! I can do this cool thing for 3 blood!", people will either plan on not doing that thing, filling up and doing that thing anyway, or Villeining and then having the *next* vampire they get out do that thing.
For example, Necromancy vampires can play Shambling Hordes, which is a very good card for 3 blood. The end result of this is that vampires with Necromancy either play Shambling Hordes (and no Villein) or play Villein (and no Shambling Hordes). And the decision making process isn't usually based on "Oh, if only I could play Villein *and* Shambling Hordes! Whatever shall I do?" It is based on "here is what I want my deck to do, and here is the best way to do it." Not all decks use Villein already.
> bakija wrote:
> The end result of this is that vampires with Necromancy either play Shambling Hordes (and no Villein) or play Villein (and no Shambling Hordes). And the decision making process isn't usually based on "Oh, if only I could play Villein *and* Shambling Hordes! Whatever shall I do?" It is based on "here is what I want my deck to do, and here is the best way to do it." Not all decks use Villein already.
>
Yea, and such choice is the goal of my idea. By now most good cards costs 0-1 blood, so you're losing nothing by villeining your vamps. If there will be real use for additional blood, then villein will be just one of trifles.
NC Russia
> elotar wrote:
>
> > bakija wrote:
> > The end result of this is that vampires with Necromancy either play Shambling Hordes (and no Villein) or play Villein (and no Shambling Hordes). And the decision making process isn't usually based on "Oh, if only I could play Villein *and* Shambling Hordes! Whatever shall I do?" It is based on "here is what I want my deck to do, and here is the best way to do it." Not all decks use Villein already.
> >
> Yea, and such choice is the goal of my idea. By now most good cards costs 0-1 blood, so you're losing nothing by villeining your vamps. If there will be real use for additional blood, then villein will be just one of trifles.
>
Just as a side note, I play Villein as much as a used to play Minion Tap, and I see no trouble with it.
Anyway, I find it hard to play with only 3 blood unless there's absolutely no combat and no attrition deck at the table.
If you're worried by your prey playing Villein, just play combat (or Horshoe / Shattering Crescendo / etc.) or Banishment.
"Refilling" your vampire to 3 blood with Lilith's Blessing is nice but isn't a big issue.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> elotar wrote:
> Yea, and such choice is the goal of my idea. By now most good cards costs 0-1 blood, so you're losing nothing by villeining your vamps. If there will be real use for additional blood, then villein will be just one of trifles.
>
I appreciate your attempt to be constructive.
What I don't get is that people don't see the possibilities in the game which bloodemptied minions offer. If they are low on blood you can easily torporize them. Instead of using this fact you search for rewards for having blood on the minion. I would appreciate it if you'd teach the villeining players the disadvantages of being without blood (with the instruments the game is offering you) instead of searching for goodies for having blood. You seem to be sensory depraved by your hate against this specific card so you cannot come up with ideas to counter it. Leaving the Girlsdecks aside you can always banish, combat, empty the minions in multiple ways (bloodstealing allies, Cryptic Mission, Free State Rant, others mentioned by clever people above) and destroy someone's game easily. If, and maybe that's the whole problem, if you agree to experiment with deckideas other than the known and proven ones. Yes, Villein is one of the best cards in the game. But like all the other cards it fortunately has a downside. Use it to your advantage. THAT is what makes a good deckbuilder (at least in my eyes).
Baron of Frankfurt
> Joscha wrote:
>
> > elotar wrote:
> > Yea, and such choice is the goal of my idea. By now most good cards costs 0-1 blood, so you're losing nothing by villeining your vamps. If there will be real use for additional blood, then villein will be just one of trifles.
> >
> I appreciate your attempt to be constructive.
>
> What I don't get is that people don't see the possibilities in the game which bloodemptied minions offer. If they are low on blood you can easily torporize them. Instead of using this fact you search for rewards for having blood on the minion. I would appreciate it if you'd teach the villeining players the disadvantages of being without blood (with the instruments the game is offering you) instead of searching for goodies for having blood. You seem to be sensory depraved by your hate against this specific card so you cannot come up with ideas to counter it. Leaving the Girlsdecks aside you can always banish, combat, empty the minions in multiple ways (bloodstealing allies, Cryptic Mission, Free State Rant, others mentioned by clever people above) and destroy someone's game easily. If, and maybe that's the whole problem, if you agree to experiment with deckideas other than the known and proven ones. Yes, Villein is one of the best cards in the game. But like all the other cards it fortunately has a downside. Use it to your advantage. THAT is what makes a good deckbuilder (at least in my eyes).
>
I've alredy passed this point - 5 sudden reversals and problem is solved. But the game will be really boring if everybody will start to play in such a way.
The problem with villein by now is not, that this cards can't be beaten, it's just that it is too good. I think it's the master eguivalent of "hand strike: strength+6 damage" without any requirenments. Sure you can play skin of steel, s:ce, long range combat, but the card still will be quite disbalanced.
The problem, that additional blood means nothing (or you can call it "big vampires are bad") was in this game from the beginning long before the villein. The goal of new cards is to solve game problems, not "add bounce to animalizm" or other strange things for lulz, which are suggested here.
NC Russia
As much as it frustrates me when my prey / predator plays a couple of Villeins in a single master phase and comes from the brink of death to a game-winning position, the trifle-ness opens up significant possibilities in deck-designing that I never fussed with before. I play far more high-cap decks than ever before - Minion Taps are great, sure, but Master slots were tight - so Villein has opened some doors for me and on balance I don't really mind it - despite obvious Giant's Blood / Lilith's Blessing abuses.
Just as some actions must be taken before others (mandatory v. non-mandatory), what if there was a 'precedence rule' created for master cards? You could say, for example, that Villein, Giant's Blood and (picking another much-maligned card at semi-random) Pentex Subversion could only be played with the very first MPA of each turn? That'd mean multi-master decks could still exist, but they'd have to be significantly cannier - Villein and Giant's Blood within the same phase doesn't work anymore now, although each card works well enough by itself for those who have a splash of them in their decks. Note that Villein wouldn't even need to be so flagged if Giant's Blood was the only problem, but Lilith's Blessing probably pushes it onto this list.
Beyond errata, the trade-off is that it creates some problems for OOT-heavy decks. Any other downsides / weaknesses?
cheers
Disco Stu
Prince of Melbourne, Australia
Thing that would solve game mechanic would be changing game mechanic.
First thing is getting rid of 'default' strength and bleed, and making them displayed on the card. Second thing is increasing poll, capacity of vampires and most other values (maybe except stealth and intercept) twice to get better spectrum of choices (for example weenie would have bleed 1 and some current 9 cap would bleed for 3).
It would also help with pricing cards correctly, as currently some cards would be too good as free cards and wallpapers as cards that cost 1 blood.
Another thing that would help would be making hunt less effective for weenies. Right now it dont matter if weenie or 11cap hunts as they both gain 1 blood when successful.
Huge thing that would help the game and make combat deeper would be introducing initiative steps instead of first strike mechanic. It would make strike: combat ends more balanced against other strikes. Strikes would be chosen in initiative steps, and s:ce would usually have high initiative value, thus will be played as pre-measure unlike current reactive s:ce of non-acting vampires, and strike:dodge would act reactive (able to dodge strikes with higher initiative).
Back to the topic, villein is not the problem, bloodgain is (giants blood, voter cap).
Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.
> Lech wrote:
> Thing that would solve game mechanic would be changing game mechanic.
>
> First thing is getting rid of 'default' strength and bleed, and making them displayed on the card. Second thing is increasing poll, capacity of vampires and most other values (maybe except stealth and intercept) twice to get better spectrum of choices (for example weenie would have bleed 1 and some current 9 cap would bleed for 3).
>
> It would also help with pricing cards correctly, as currently some cards would be too good as free cards and wallpapers as cards that cost 1 blood.
>
> Another thing that would help would be making hunt less effective for weenies. Right now it dont matter if weenie or 11cap hunts as they both gain 1 blood when successful.
>
> Huge thing that would help the game and make combat deeper would be introducing initiative steps instead of first strike mechanic. It would make strike: combat ends more balanced against other strikes. Strikes would be chosen in initiative steps, and s:ce would usually have high initiative value, thus will be played as pre-measure unlike current reactive s:ce of non-acting vampires, and strike:dodge would act reactive (able to dodge strikes with higher initiative).
>
May I suggest to add some miniatures too, and a board? We could also replace the cards by dices.
> Lech wrote:
> Back to the topic, villein is not the problem, bloodgain is (giants blood, voter cap).
>
I don't think that blood gain is a problem per se (otherwise, Hunting Ground, Taste of Vitae etc. should be banned). Could you clarify?
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
VTES is a game where resources are globally showing a shortfall. it easier to lose blood than gaining it (strike for 3 against hunt for 1) it easier to lose pool than gaining it (bleeding for 1 against keeping the edge to gain 1, influencing vampires, card costs...)
Due to this, games tend to end (otherwise players would be gaining more pool than loosing it and would never be ousted).
Some cards give some blood/pool at some blood/pool cost Hunting ground, 1 blood per turn against 2 pool and a MPA (once) Govern the Unaligned superior (+2 pool) 5th Tradition (+4 blood) Renew Vigor (+X blood)
Some cards give pool at no cost Art Scam (+2 pool) Voter Captivation (+2 pool) Parity Shift (+X pool) Golconda (+X pool) Minion Tap / Villein (+X pool) Political Stranglehold (+X pool, once)
Some cards give blood at no cost Coven (+2 blood) Restauration (+3 blood) Giant's Blood (+X blood, once) Voter Captivation (+X blood) Lilith's Blessing (3 blood, once)
Apparently, people are complaining about the fact that Villein allows to gain pool at too little cost.
The first Villein is no gain pool since you'll end with as much pool you had if you hadn't influence out the vampire.
But, it means you have an extra minion at no cost.
Until now, there's nothing new because Minion Tap already allowed this.
It would mean that the second MPA is responsible of the unbalancedness of the card.
1) But most blood gaining cards are NOT masters. So the trouble seems to be that the trifleness of Villein allows to regain the pool AND do something else of your master phase, meaning that the MPA are very important (wow!). The fact that another Villein may be played later, after having regaining some blood is moot since it could already be done with Minion Tap.
For example, I can play a Villein and a Pentex in the same turn. With Minion Tap, I would have been obliged to wait 1 turn.
So, is Villein too good because it allows you to gain 1 turn (compared to Minion Tap)? To be discussed.
2) Some people complain that the trifleness allows to "gain pool". In fact, they're always refering to the play of Villein + Giant's Blood, or Villein + Lilith's Blessing. In the first case, it result in a net gain of X pool (once in a game), in the second case of 3 pool (once per vampire).
To be compared to the gain of 2 pool for Art Scam, 5 pool for Parity Shift, 2 pool for Govern the Unaligned etc. So it seems quite balanced (even if the Villein + Giant's Blood combo is a "lucky" one because you have to play it before someone else does. Considering the odds are the same for everyone, it means you'll gain an average 2 pool with it for a 10-cap vampire).
Blood doll + Hunting ground is also a combo that makes you gain 1 pool each turn, so I think it's no big deal to gain 3 pool from time to time.
So, given what has been said, some ideas would be:
- make Villein non-trifle (which makes it worse than Minion Tap, so Villein can be banned and we play with Minion Tap again)
- make Villein cost some pool or limit the amount of blood moved so it's more in line with Minion Tap (but this require to prove than Minion Tap is balanced)
- ban Villein and Minion Tap, making big vampires once again more difficult to play
IMHO, Villein is good as it is. Since it's more "playable" than Minion Tap, I would maybe limit the blood moved to 5 (with no lower limit) and remove the penalty on Minion Tap (allowing to play both depending on the type of deck). Or make it trifle only if you take move 5 blood or less (so it merges with Minion Tap).
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
> ...So, given what has been said, some ideas would be:
> - make Villein non-trifle (which makes it worse than Minion Tap, so Villein can be banned and we play with Minion Tap again)
> - make Villein cost some pool or limit the amount of blood moved so it's more in line with Minion Tap (but this require to prove than Minion Tap is balanced)
> - ban Villein and Minion Tap, making big vampires once again more difficult to play
>
> IMHO, Villein is good as it is. Since it's more "playable" than Minion Tap, I would maybe limit the blood moved to 5 (with no lower limit) and remove the penalty on Minion Tap (allowing to play both depending on the type of deck). Or make it trifle only if you take move 5 blood or less (so it merges with Minion Tap). ...
>
All good ideas and nice train of thought!
/signed
klubtitanatlas.hr/
former NC for Croatia
> Lech wrote:
> Thing that would solve game mechanic would be changing game mechanic.
>
> First thing is getting rid of 'default' strength and bleed, and making them displayed on the card. Second thing is increasing poll, capacity of vampires and most other values (maybe except stealth and intercept) twice to get better spectrum of choices (for example weenie would have bleed 1 and some current 9 cap would bleed for 3).
>
> It would also help with pricing cards correctly, as currently some cards would be too good as free cards and wallpapers as cards that cost 1 blood.
>
> Another thing that would help would be making hunt less effective for weenies. Right now it dont matter if weenie or 11cap hunts as they both gain 1 blood when successful.
>
> Huge thing that would help the game and make combat deeper would be introducing initiative steps instead of first strike mechanic. It would make strike: combat ends more balanced against other strikes. Strikes would be chosen in initiative steps, and s:ce would usually have high initiative value, thus will be played as pre-measure unlike current reactive s:ce of non-acting vampires, and strike:dodge would act reactive (able to dodge strikes with higher initiative).
>
> Back to the topic, villein is not the problem, bloodgain is (giants blood, voter cap).
>
Errr? Try some board games There is absolutely nothing wrong with one of the best mechanics in the whole TCG/CCG world.
/not signed at all
klubtitanatlas.hr/
former NC for Croatia
I don't find a problem with the blood gain aspect of Villein.
The part that bothers me is that it hoses Minion Tap. Since Villein is hard to find, it means that newer players will always be at a disadvantage until they shell out the money to upgrade their minion taps to Villeins. Unlike the Vessel vs Blood Doll, it's pretty much a no brainer for which card to include when you compare Minion Tap and Villein, and usually the only reason to play with Minion Tap is that you don't have any/enough Villein.
Many people that I know have started to allow Minion Tap as a proxy for Villein, which I think is fine. If that were adopted across the board, we'd all be playing with Villein, and things would carry on much as they do today but without the big penalty on new players.
The other alternative for this problem is to remove the Villein text that hoses Minion Tap.
VtES store : www.prunesquallor.net
Card supplies & games : stores.ebay.com/Prunesquallors-Secret-Cache
I have no problem with proxies at all. Actually I encourage new or newer players to play with stand-ins as they obviously have difficulties in getting needed cards. So saying Minion Taps (or Blood Dolls, Sermon of Caines, Life in the Cities etc.) are Villeins is fine by me. The problem are of course the tournaments.
Baron of Frankfurt
Agreed. It is a very troubling aspect of Villein. Villein is already better than Minion Tap. Its negatives don't balance its trifleness.
New cards often replace old cards by being superior to them, but they don't actually make the old cards unplayable. For instance, Baseball Bat doesn't say "Bastard Swords and Meat Cleavers cost an additional pool".
I cannot even play Minion Tap in a casual environment, because it is too costly once there are more than one Villeins in play.
The Minion Tap-hosing text was very unfriendly to consumers, and now that the game has been discontinued, it is unfriendly to new players.
I agree with you Aaron, but only because Villein is so hard to get to new players.
Being Trifle helps the use of big cap vampires, because you can still use other master slots for whatever it is that your deck does. Minion Tap doesn't allow that.
Instead of Zillah's + Minion Tap, you can have Zillah's + Villein + something else on your deck.
Everything has pros and cons, but killing (or nerfing) Villein will help mid cap or weenie decks.
Baseball Bat was bad a metaphor because there was never a whining outcry about Bastard Swords or Meat Cleavers.
However, there was a huge one about Minion Tap + Voter Captivation, specially with or Grand Ball.
Villain helped tone that down. Even if you change those decks to use Villein, they still pay extra for the second Villein each vampire has.
Granted, it is not a perfect fix, but I don't see any better one.
In my friendly playgroup we don't have problems with proxies, but since we always try to test decks for tournaments, the idea kind of falls apart.
Cheers!
Tiago
> Brum wrote:
> I agree with you Aaron, but only because Villein is so hard to get to new players.
>
Villein is $6-8 and it's constantly on eBay. Sell them six of your extra Villein. they can either give you $40 or buy you a dinner or a few beers. If someone isn't willing to spend $40 to make their deck(s) 95% better than that is its own problem.
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/
Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017
> Brum wrote:
> I agree with you Aaron, but only because Villein is so hard to get to new players.
>
> ...
>
> In my friendly playgroup we don't have problems with proxies, but since we always try to test decks for tournaments, the idea kind of falls apart.
>
The idea doesn't have to fall apart for tournaments.
VEKN could put in place a policy for competitive play, allowing Minion Tap to be proxied for Villein, if they so desired. To avoid confusion, you would have to write VILLEIN in big letters on the card with a permanent marker, perhaps.
Or VEKN could host a PDF file, it doesn't have to be fancy, with the rules of Villein printed on it and some "recognized for official play by VEKN" blah blah. Print it out, cut it to the size of a VtES card, put it into a card sleeve on top of an Ascendance, and you're good.
BTW, Kevin, must be nice to play in an environment where all the old-timers have lots of "extra" Villein, and everyone is happy to spend as much on 6 cards as they'd spend on a booster box.
VtES store : www.prunesquallor.net
Card supplies & games : stores.ebay.com/Prunesquallors-Secret-Cache
> Brum wrote:
> I agree with you Aaron, but only because Villein is so hard to get to new players.
>
> Being Trifle helps the use of big cap vampires, because you can still use other master slots for whatever it is that your deck does. Minion Tap doesn't allow that.
>
> Everything has pros and cons, but killing (or nerfing) Villein will help mid cap or weenie decks.
>
> Baseball Bat was bad a metaphor because there was never a whining outcry about Bastard Swords or Meat Cleavers.
> However, there was a huge one about Minion Tap + Voter Captivation, specially with or Grand Ball.
> Villain helped tone that down. Even if you change those decks to use Villein, they still pay extra for the second Villein each vampire has.
> Granted, it is not a perfect fix, but I don't see any better one.
>
So what you are saying is that Minion Tap needed to be killed, and that Villein was the correct way to do it. I would not be against Minion Tap costing 1 pool, because that is a completely reasonable cost for regaining all the pool you spent on a powerful vampire such as an IC member. More than 1 and it is not worth it. It's true that I have not seen many if any decks recently that have Villeined and Capped the same vampire multiple times. No, now they just use Lilliths Blessing and Wider View and bring out more and more huge vamps, which then get Villein'ed/Lillith'ed themselves.
If Villein were limited to a transfer of 5 blood as I have suggested, you could still recuperate half of the cost of a big vampire and still get another MPA. I don't believe that it is necessary to recuperate 10/11 blood off your IC member as a trifle in order to make the IC member worth playing.
I got back into VTES because I had the impression you could get cards cheaply and make good decks with them. That was an attraction of the game. Now my Minion Taps are not just sub-optimal, they are worthless.
Many a Villein printed both in Keepers as well as in each of the Heirs starters. Should be more than enough, so proxying seems redundant. Besides, what if someone wants to play good ol' Minion Taps?
I'm not really buying the talk about the hypothetical new player. Most people say "new player" when they mean "old player who didn't want to purchase sets when they were available".
Finnish Politics!
Oh, I am talking about myself. I want to be able to play Minion Tap, and I am not a new player.
I have a Ventrue deck with two Minion Taps that I played this weekend. When I wanted to play a Minion Tap for three, it would have cost me two pool, which made me decide to discard it.
Okay, I get it: Play Villein. But why should I have to? Why is Minion Tap so broken that I must now purchase Villeins? Because LSJ and CCP wanted my money? That's the best answer I can come up with, and it's not a very nice one.
> Lönkka wrote:
> Many a Villein printed both in Keepers as well as in each of the Heirs starters. Should be more than enough, so proxying seems redundant. Besides, what if someone wants to play good ol' Minion Taps?
>
> I'm not really buying the talk about the hypothetical new player. Most people say "new player" when they mean "old player who didn't want to purchase sets when they were available".
>
No Keepers of Tradition boosters available anywhere, and useful commons from that set go for silly prices, so if that's your argument for its widespread availability, try again. There are plenty of Vessels in the Keepers starters, but no Villeins.
As for the Heirs to the Blood starters, those are long gone and highly sought after, far scarcer than Keepers boosters, so they hardly provide a useful supply.
As far as my area group, the "new player" is hardly hypothetical. They might be actually new, they might be someone who stopped playing after Sabbat, doesn't much matter. If you don't have at least some encounters with "new players" it sounds to me like you could be making more of an effort to recruit them.
VtES store : www.prunesquallor.net
Card supplies & games : stores.ebay.com/Prunesquallors-Secret-Cache
> Lönkka wrote:
> Many a Villein printed both in Keepers as well as in each of the Heirs starters. Should be more than enough, so proxying seems redundant. Besides, what if someone wants to play good ol' Minion Taps?
>
> I'm not really buying the talk about the hypothetical new player. Most people say "new player" when they mean "old player who didn't want to purchase sets when they were available".
>
My seven copies of Villein are not nearly enough to cover the decks I want to put them in. I must have 8-10 Eyes of Argus and those aren't enough. So far I have not acquired enough copies of Deep Song for even one animalism deck that needs more than a few. Had I known that HttB starters would disappear so quickly, sure I would have bought more than 1/2 a box. Now that I don't have the choice, I have to proxy, constantly move cards around(and sometimes forget which goes where), or just not play the card, common or not. I am not sympathetic to Kevin's argument that for a card that you want in multiples in many decks, $6(and that is VERY low from what I've seen) is a reasonable price per card. For tournaments I can suck it up and move cards/borrow cards/not use cards, but it is annoying that there is such an unmet need.
Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one.
-Friedrich Nietzsche
brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/
> Lönkka wrote:
> I'm not really buying the talk about the hypothetical new player. Most people say "new player" when they mean "old player who didn't want to purchase sets when they were available".
>
Well, I just got two completely new people interested in the game today. That makes, what, 5 this summer? Add to that this totally new gaming group who got into the game in Northern Ireland last spring, and the concept of a New Player isn't as utopistic as it might seem to some.
Granted, I feel I'm really working with the new player issue, but I think it's really that important. Also, I love playing with new people. And I mean new in various meanings of the word.
Also, to Kevin: I'd rather buy the new guys some mid-cap bleeders, combat guys and whatnot or invest in some Grooming the Proteges - or anything else than ask them to invest $40 in 6 cards! Villein was an outrageous addition to the game, but even more so now that the game got discontinued. I'm not saying it's that overpowered that it cannot be outplayed, I'm not that childish, but I am saying it had an immensely negative impact on how easy it is to get new players actually hooked, not just trying out for a couple of casuals a year. Money is an issue with Villein. Seriously.
Just my two cents!
"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise
garourimgazette.wordpress.com/
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> brandonsantacruz wrote:
> My seven copies of Villein are not nearly enough to cover the decks I want to put them in. I must have 8-10 Eyes of Argus and those aren't enough.
>
Move them around. I do. No sympathy over here for people that want to build and keep together umpteen decks. Oh, and make decklists and keep them with the deck box, so you know what goes where. Use a pencil, if you need to.
> brandonsantacruz wrote:
> I am not sympathetic to Kevin's argument that for a card that you want in multiples in many decks, $6 (and that is VERY low from what I've seen) is a reasonable price per card. For tournaments I can suck it up and move cards/borrow cards/not use cards, but it is annoying that there is such an unmet need.
>
I agree the unmet need is large, and that is unfortunate. The last few Villein eBay auctions went for $6 and $8 per Villein, fyi.
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/
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> elotar wrote:
> All previous ideas are "attacks" on the card itself.
>
Villein was created to right an imbalance between small vampires with low costs and large vampires with higher costs.
The 'solution' doesn't require reprinting or banning or errata.
The simplest solution is a change to one sentence in the rulebook.
www.vekn.net/index.php/rulebook/7-influence-phase
> rulebook wrote:
> At the end of your influence phase, any vampire in your uncontrolled region with a number of blood counters on him equal to (or more than) his capacity becomes controlled.
>
> proposal wrote:
> At the end of your influence phase, any vampire in your uncontrolled region with a number of blood counters on him equal to 6 (or more), or equal to (or more than) his capacity becomes controlled.
>
Where 6 could also work as 5. This way you can bring out a large vampire more quickly, save the space in the deck where you would have put the Villein/Minion Tap, and still have the original in play goal of a 6+ capacity vampire without a 20%+ investment of your pool. This would be particularly helpful for those vampires that require a 33% or more investment of your pool, the 10 and 11 capacity vampires. The vampires also come out up to half empty, so their ability to play all of their possible cards can be impaired.
This neutralizes Villein/Minion Tap/Lilith's Blessing's necessity in decks while allowing all players to still use them if they can benefit from them in the specific deck that they wish to play.
> KevinM wrote:
>
> > Brum wrote:
> > I agree with you Aaron, but only because Villein is so hard to get to new players.
> >
> Villein is $6-8 and it's constantly on eBay. Sell them six of your extra Villein. they can either give you $40 or buy you a dinner or a few beers. If someone isn't willing to spend $40 to make their deck(s) 95% better than that is its own problem.
>
If those were the prices, yes, I agree.
But a search in eBay shows a Bye it Now for 15 and a normal bid that has just started.
I let me be clear. When I write new players, I'm writing about players that started playing in the last 12 months.
You know, the type of people who would like to get Magic of the Smith, Villein, Dreams, stuff that goes for 9+ us Doll a piece on eBay.
> prunesquallor wrote:
> No Keepers of Tradition boosters available anywhere, and useful commons from that set go for silly prices
>
Not any more. But it used to be available for a good long while. But since quite a few old hands didn't buy that many boosters wanting to buy the needed cards separately there is now a substantially higher demand for even some of the commons than normally.
Lession learned: Buy products when they are available so you don't need to cry over spilt milk.
> prunesquallor wrote:
> If you don't have at least some encounters with "new players" it sounds to me like you could be making more of an effort to recruit them.
>
Yeah, thes scene in Finland is pretty much dead...
This week there's a tournament that has consistently been the 2nd largest in the world for years on end with around 90 players or so and only around half a dozen of those are foreigners.
"think of the new players" = "think of the children"
Not very convincing argument IMHO.
If you didn't have good and solid access to Keepers boosters and Heirs Starters your local distributors/retailers didn't make that much effort to keep the product available.
Finnish Politics!
> Adonai wrote:
>
> > elotar wrote:
> > All previous ideas are "attacks" on the card itself.
> >
> Villein was created to right an imbalance between small vampires with low costs and large vampires with higher costs.
>
> The 'solution' doesn't require reprinting or banning or errata.
>
> The simplest solution is a change to one sentence in the rulebook.
>
> www.vekn.net/index.php/rulebook/7-influence-phase
>
> > rulebook wrote:
> > At the end of your influence phase, any vampire in your uncontrolled region with a number of blood counters on him equal to (or more than) his capacity becomes controlled.
> >
> > proposal wrote:
> > At the end of your influence phase, any vampire in your uncontrolled region with a number of blood counters on him equal to 6 (or more), or equal to (or more than) his capacity becomes controlled.
> >
> Where 6 could also work as 5. This way you can bring out a large vampire more quickly, save the space in the deck where you would have put the Villein/Minion Tap, and still have the original in play goal of a 6+ capacity vampire without a 20%+ investment of your pool. This would be particularly helpful for those vampires that require a 33% or more investment of your pool, the 10 and 11 capacity vampires. The vampires also come out up to half empty, so their ability to play all of their possible cards can be impaired.
>
> This neutralizes Villein/Minion Tap/Lilith's Blessing's necessity in decks while allowing all players to still use them if they can benefit from them in the specific deck that they wish to play.
>
This idea will kill midcap vampires.
NC Russia
Discussion is turning ugly again with repeting the same arguments
Let's try adding something new:
I've been thinking lately, and come to the conclusion that minion tap and blood doll are also too powerful.
If we are using 1:2 pool/blood ratio, than transfering blood to pool equals gaining 1 blood, so blood doll becames nearly equal to hunting ground, but without pool cost.
Minion tap "gain" hightly depends on size of vampire. If we left 3 blood as fine amount for vampire, than gain=(capasity-3)/2. 1 pool for 5cap - 4pool for IC.
"normal" pool gain for 1 master is 1 pool, so starting from the 6th cap we a gaining too many.
The same idea is with ashurs - 3 pool for 3 mpa is fine, but 13 cards are not - if we think, that liquidation is balanced, than 7 cards cost 2 pool, so real pool gain from ashurs is 7.
NC Russia
> Lönkka wrote:
>
> > prunesquallor wrote:
> > No Keepers of Tradition boosters available anywhere, and useful commons from that set go for silly prices
> >
> Not any more. But it used to be available for a good long while. But since quite a few old hands didn't buy that many boosters wanting to buy the needed cards separately there is now a substantially higher demand for even some of the commons than normally.
>
Today is all that matters, I don't see the relevance of how things used to be.
> Lönkka wrote:
> "think of the new players" = "think of the children"
> Not very convincing argument IMHO.
>
So, because you have no new players where you are, there are therefore no new players anywhere. If everyone playing the game thinks that way then I guarantee the game will be effectively dead in a couple of years.
> Lönkka wrote:
> If you didn't have good and solid access to Keepers boosters and Heirs Starters your local distributors/retailers didn't make that much effort to keep the product available.
>
At least in the US, most retailers have provided no support for the game unless they have an active playgroup in their shop (which is uncommon). Been this way for years before HttB.
What used to be is, as I said, no longer relevant. Anyone these days who comes across a game store that has Keepers boosters or Heirs starters is likely to buy up what they can. For themselves, for their playgroup, or to sell on eBay. That sealed product effectively no longer exists.
It's hard to see how to carry the conversation forward - you believe that new players don't exist, and I do; you talk of theoretical past access to cards and I'm only concerned with what can be done today.
VtES store : www.prunesquallor.net
Card supplies & games : stores.ebay.com/Prunesquallors-Secret-Cache
> Lönkka wrote:
> Lession learned: Buy products when they are available so you don't need to cry over spilt milk.
>
Lesson learned: don't spill the milk so you won't have to cry over the spilled milk
the milk which nobody knew was going to spill until it did
buy more milk before it goes out of production
> Yeah, thes scene in Finland is pretty much dead...
> This week there's a tournament that has consistently been the 2nd largest in the world for years on end with around 90 players or so and only around half a dozen of those are foreigners.
>
so you're saying we should all move to Finland? do they still have milk there?
> "think of the new players" = "think of the children"
> Not very convincing argument IMHO.
>
I also have never been quite convinced that these so-called "children" exist. and if these "children" hypothetically start crying because they want milk, then they should've bought some milk before they were born.
this post sponsored by milk®™
> prunesquallor wrote:
> So, because you have no new players where you are, there are therefore no new players anywhere.
>
I never said neither.
> prunesquallor wrote:
> If everyone playing the game thinks that way then I guarantee the game will be effectively dead in a couple of years.
>
> prunesquallor wrote:
> At least in the US, most retailers have provided no support for the game unless they have an active playgroup in their shop (which is uncommon). Been this way for years before HttB.
>
Regarding game's status:
I do think that skipping the US retail system for cheaper bang for VtES buck certainly contributed to the current demise of the game. Oversimplification follows - nearly everyone purchases from dirst cheap internet store that sells for non-existent margin, retailers hardly see any product moving and thus stop supporting the game making it harder for someone casually come across the game for the first time, manufacturer sales dwindle and lisence is not renewed.
> prunesquallor wrote:
> It's hard to see how to carry the conversation forward - you believe that new players don't exist, and I do; you talk of theoretical past access to cards and I'm only concerned with what can be done today.
>
Thousands and thousands of Villein are out there. It is not like only 100 were printed.
Proxying isn't likely to be happening, PDF printing already existing cards certainly won't be hapening due copyright. Banning seems to be a possibility, but do we really want start banning cards after the set(s) they apperared sell out? There'll always be killer cards that won't be available any more for the "new players".
Ah, Haze certainly has a chip on his shoulder regarding proverbs.
I wasn't saying that everyone needs to move here, I was just demonstrating to prunesquallor, who suggested that not enough was done to keep the local scene alive, that the local scene is thriving.
Local supplies for quite a few sold-out product dwindled after preiously non-ecistent foreign demand entered equation.
Finnish Politics!
> Lönkka wrote:
> Regarding game's status:
> I do think that skipping the US retail system for cheaper bang for VtES buck certainly contributed to the current demise of the game. Oversimplification follows - nearly everyone purchases from dirst cheap internet store that sells for non-existent margin, retailers hardly see any product moving and thus stop supporting the game making it harder for someone casually come across the game for the first time, manufacturer sales dwindle and lisence is not renewed.
>
With all due respect, every store owner I've met who sells VTES has the business sense of a (insert the name of an inanimate object here). Now I didn't meet the owner at the place I played at near Seattle, but he went out of business so that doesn't necessarily take away from my point. That said, I agree with you that buying all these cards online has seriously hurt the bottom line for retailers.
Now we're just off on a tangent.
Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one.
-Friedrich Nietzsche
brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/
Yeah, the local store in Pori some four, five years ago never had a lot of VTES on sale, so usually somebody just came in, bought everything (I.E. one box), then if you ordered from there it took longer than ordering from Germany, cost more and at least once I got the wrong product. And that was one of the few products that would have sold, not that old Warhammer crap that kept collecting dust... Well now there's no such store in Pori.
I haven't seen a new VTES player in a long time. I think the last batch was three or four years ago, and after that, nothing. Where would they come from, anyway, I sure don't know anybody who's interested in starting a CCG, especially with the increasing number of high-quality board games, a much cheaper prospect... I think the death of oWod reduced the interest to this game, after all a lot of VTES players were playing the RPG's first.