Are there ANY rules in the tournament rules/judge guidelines/rulings/wherever concerning how the players are allowed to talk to eachother immediately before and during the "seating dance"?
This is good for all judges to know. I´ve heard several variants.
"My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."
> Joscha wrote:
> I'd like to second that and would favour an addition to the tournament rules.
>
Yes, off course this (whatever is decided on) should go into the tournament rules.
"My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."
Of course people will talk to one another so I think it would be quite silly to forbid them.
If the tournament is very small (so you know or can make a good guess who are in the finsls) and you've finished the last turn but there is still a table or two going on.
During this time you already might be able to talk with the needed persons placing the possible finalists who, say, timeout less options.
Finnish Politics!
> Lönkka wrote:
> Of course people will talk to one another so I think it would be quite silly to forbid them.
>
> If the tournament is very small (so you know or can make a good guess who are in the finsls) and you've finished the last turn but there is still a table or two going on.
>
> During this time you already might be able to talk with the needed persons placing the possible finalists who, say, timeout less options.
>
Yes, this is hard to forbid, unless you can judge it as collusion.
But what I mean is mainly what can or cannot be said when the players gather to seat, the actual "seating dance".
I personaly am not really sure what to think. It is a very delicate, critical moment, when experienced players can manipulate newbies into bad decisions. Maybe it´s best to keep it quiet.
"My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."
No way!
If one or two tries to manipulate, then there are also one or two who will call their BS (assuming that there is just one newbie).
Deciding seating for finals is still part of the game.
People still try to manipulate everyone during the games too...
Also, for example Swedish information network is quite effective in gathering info on who plays what during EC's tournaments. Not everyone else can be as efficient. Not talking during the seating would leave those who are unable to tap into this network at disadvantage -now they can at least try to get other finalists to talk about the decks in finals before making their decision.
Finnish Politics!
And how long in your opinion this "manipulation and information gathering phase" should take? IMHO to gather information right at the seating in a tournament actually makes you a victim of manipulation and misinformation, as everybody tries to influence you to make decisions in their favour.
In addition do you really like to open that game phase to deal discussions, such as "let us focus on the heavy bleeder with our two combat decks as predator and prey, take care of the rest of the table and fight it out then" or the like? If talking is allowed in the seating nothing would forbid this kind of table talk. I think this would be annoying.
Baron of Frankfurt
There are no time limits in the tournament rules for organizing seating for finals.
There is, however, play to win clause for the finals and all non-winners tie for 2nd place (4.8. Play to Win: During the finals, playing to win means playing to finish as tournament winner (as defined in 3.7.5).) which might cause problems for players who act in the way Joscha just decribed.
My point was, some people might have access to some solid information on who are going to be in the finals before the seating for the finals is being decided. Thsu they will have a chance to talk about the seating beforehand which mean that it'll be absolutely impossible to oversee that no such discussions are taking place (compare it to herding cats...).
Hence, if talking will be prohibited during the seating, then some people will probably be at disadvantage.
Disadvantage + impossibility of overseeing any prior discussions means that why implement such a rule?
Finnish Politics!
> Lönkka wrote:
> Disadvantage + impossibility of overseeing any prior discussions means that why implement such a rule?
>
Well, like I said, I´m ambivalent to this. The language barrier is always oppressive in this game, and these few minutes it gets especially critical. Isn´t it enough too have discussions during the actual games?
"My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."
> Joscha wrote:
> I'd like to second that and would favour an addition to the tournament rules.
>
The only reasonable way to do this is to force players to sit at their table until round3 (or whichever is the last round) is over.
I highly doubt anyone could force this. Plus it sounds silly.
> Pascal wrote:
>
> > Joscha wrote:
> > I'd like to second that and would favour an addition to the tournament rules.
> >
> The only reasonable way to do this is to force players to sit at their table until round3 (or whichever is the last round) is over.
>
> I highly doubt anyone could force this. Plus it sounds silly.
>
Again, what I´m talking about is what is said when all 5 players are together, during the actual seating.
For 10 years or so I´ve been arranging tournaments, and I always prefered silent seating ceremonies. Now suddenly one players said "It´s ok to talk, as long as all players are present", and then he started "explaining" how everybody should sit. It felt weird, so I thought I´d better check this with this forum.
"My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."
> Ashur wrote:
>
> > Pascal wrote:
> >
> > > Joscha wrote:
> > > I'd like to second that and would favour an addition to the tournament rules.
> > >
> > The only reasonable way to do this is to force players to sit at their table until round3 (or whichever is the last round) is over.
> >
> > I highly doubt anyone could force this. Plus it sounds silly.
> >
> Again, what I´m talking about is what is said when all 5 players are together, during the actual seating.
>
> For 10 years or so I´ve been arranging tournaments, and I always prefered silent seating ceremonies. Now suddenly one players said "It´s ok to talk, as long as all players are present", and then he started "explaining" how everybody should sit. It felt weird, so I thought I´d better check this with this forum.
>
Ah. That's something different to "before the finals", that's "during the seating choices". I'll see and get this added to the next RTR.
IMO any deal making should be prohibited prior to the game start time. Beyond that I think that (mis)information sharing should be allowed between finalists only if the elimination rounds are over. What does this mean for potential finalists? Speak only of those without any reasonable chance of making the finals (I.e. "did you see that raptor deck?").
Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one.
-Friedrich Nietzsche
brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/
Completely unnecessary IMHO.
If all need to be present and silent then the ones that need to have a discussion on the seating order will just take their discussion elsewhere for a while.
Before the seating choices if need be.
I feel that trying to do anything about this ("problem") will only make the situation worse.
Finnish Politics!
Well, at least would I like to know, if talking "during the seating choices" is considered okay (or not).
I witnessed the same finals as Henrik, and it was very unfamiliar to me to encounter something like "intensive pre-talking", but I accepted the challenge and found it really interesting.
B-)
National Coordinator Germany nc [dot] germany [at] magenta [dot] de
By the way: what is a deal in VTES? Is nothing. Just words, not actions. You can't just forbid talking. Is the essence of the game.
Just try don't be the puppet. And If someone try to manipulate other player, remember to that player he isn't a puppet and can think by itself.
> Drizmo wrote:
> By the way: what is a deal in VTES? Is nothing. Just words, not actions. You can't just forbid talking. Is the essence of the game.
>
I do not understand what you are saying here. If it would be forbidden to talk during the seating it is forbidden, and the judge will respond to breach of that rule just as any other breach. It has nothing to do with a "deal".
"My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."
> Ashur wrote:
>
> > Drizmo wrote:
> > By the way: what is a deal in VTES? Is nothing. Just words, not actions. You can't just forbid talking. Is the essence of the game.
> >
> I do not understand what you are saying here. If it would be forbidden to talk during the seating it is forbidden, and the judge will respond to breach of that rule just as any other breach. It has nothing to do with a "deal".
>
But you can't forbid it. As I said before, it goes against the essence of the game. I think the rules worked over 20 years, there is no point on change it.
I never talk before the final table, I just think players should have freedom choosing.
> Drizmo wrote:
> But you can't forbid it.
>
Yes you can.
> Drizmo wrote:
> I think the rules worked over 20 years, there is no point on change it.
>
There are no rules about this.
"My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."
> Ashur wrote:
>
> > Drizmo wrote:
> > But you can't forbid it.
> >
> Yes you can.
>
> > Drizmo wrote:
> > I think the rules worked over 20 years, there is no point on change it.
> >
> There are no rules about this.
>
You misunderstand me. I said that rules worked over 20 years as they are.
You can't force all players to stay in silence. You can't control that. What if my last table finish in 30 minutes and I want to go outside to smoke or make a call or whatever I want? A referee must come with me to control what I talk? I just say no. That rule would generate more problems that it solves.
Just to re-focus:
The question is, if talking is allowed (or not) "during the seating choice".
National Coordinator Germany nc [dot] germany [at] magenta [dot] de
> Hakuron wrote:
> Just to re-focus:
> The question is, if talking is allowed (or not) "during the seating choice".
>
And like me and Drizmo are trying to say, this is redundant since people can circumvent this by doing the bad stuff elsewhere.
Finnish Politics!
> Lönkka wrote:
>
> > Hakuron wrote:
> > Just to re-focus:
> > The question is, if talking is allowed (or not) "during the seating choice".
> >
> And like me and Drizmo are trying to say, this is redundant since people can circumvent this by doing the bad stuff elsewhere.
>
I think both you and Drizmo misunderstands me. The issue is not what people do prior to the seating, it is what they do DURING the seating. And I haven´t even called it "bad stuff". It might as well be "good stuff", right?
"My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."
I understand you, I just think it's hard to implement. Because if people can't talk during seating phase, they will do before.
We just have different point of view. You see a problem where I don't. Nothing bad with that. I just wanted to show my point.
Said that, I'm out from this thread, let the organization do whatever they think its better. Have fun and enjoy playing Vtes.
> Drizmo wrote:
> I understand you, I just think it's hard to implement. Because if people can't talk during seating phase, they will do before.
>
No, because I think we are talking about different kinds of talking.
The talking usually going on PRIOR to the seating ceremony is for example "What deck is person X playing?" or "You understand person X plays very aggressive?" or "You really should place yourself between X and Y". (All this might also result collusion, I guess)
The talking DURING the seating ceremony is all this, PLUS possibly also real deal-making, as well as all other kinds of weird manipulating, influencing, stressing, jedi mind tricks, stand up comedy, etc. Usually also combined with comments from stupid spectators who can´t keep their mouths shut.
"My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."
All the things you cite doing during seating, except for deal making which I think is prohibited out of game even during seating in fact (not really sure... well I would feel akward to do deals during seating, at least), I did also before seating in various finals, and I also do them all day long between rounds and during rounds just to prepare the finals, so I don't really see what your point is.
IC Organized play coordinator
Please contact me with any OP query using the mail in my profile
I think its part of the show for the spectators. I always try to have fun, even in the EC finals and I always try to put up a good show and that starts at the seating dance. So I would rather have it as it is and not make it more serious. Its part of the leraning curve, to smell the BS at every step of the game.
- Prince of Karlsruhe, Germany
> Ashur wrote:
>
> > Drizmo wrote:
> > I understand you, I just think it's hard to implement. Because if people can't talk during seating phase, they will do before.
> >
> No, because I think we are talking about different kinds of talking.
>
Nope.
I'm saying that there is no point in prohibiting talking during seating as basically deals and stuff could and can be done beforehand. Just like Orian just said.
Only doofuses like me would need to talk DURING seating. Forbidding this will only serve give advantage to way more capable, and cunning, players (say, Orian and Erol who just wrote in this thread).
Finnish Politics!
> Lönkka wrote:
> Only doofuses like me would need to talk DURING seating. Forbidding this will only serve give advantage to way more capable, and cunning, players (say, Orian and Erol who just wrote in this thread).
>
This is actually a good argument against restricting the talk. Thanks.
But I´m a little disappointed that TapeTaChatte don´t understand my point. But I can´t state it any clearer, so ok.
Also, my original post was a question, not a demand. I´ve been answered.
"My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."
Ashur,
I wouldn't attempt to ban talking during seating. Sure it might get irritating for comments from the Peanut Gallery, but those are easier and more logical to quash than from the players.
It seems like a decent number of players around the world consider Seating to effectively be part of the Final itself, but with less in the way of deal-making.
I think you will also get perverse effects if you try ban, as others have suggested.
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
Yes, sorry, I am universally known for my poor English skills
IC Organized play coordinator
Please contact me with any OP query using the mail in my profile