Limit between Proxies and Customized cards

Hey, I would have a question, many players of other games are now enjoying painting there cards. es.magiccardmarket.eu/?mainPage=browseAltered I have not found any thread dealing with that so I hope I publish it on the right part of the board. Is there any rule about that? As far as I know nothing appears on the tournament rules pages. Could I paint my cards and then go to play with them the European Championships for example? What would be the important aspect I am not allowed to change in order to keep playing with my cards? A lot of artists are used to play VTES games with friends. These questions are really important because they could lead to create prize support kit and/or competitive/fun side events for future events ideas. Thanks in advance, Best regards, Rémi Cavaillé. I am Rémi Cavaillé (), Barcelona (Spain). I was the Prince of Lyon (France) around 2003. I am now Official Judge and the 5th Prince of Barcelona. Enjoy VTES, Marvel Champions, L5R and more gaming activities in Khan Jugar: sites.google.com/view/khanjugar/

As long as they are not marked on the back (or in any other dimension), that's ok. For instance: - You can play unaltered Jyhad and Vtes cards, as long as you mix them well enough. That is: if you have Jyhad Parity Shifts in there, you should also have Vtes Parity Shifts, non-Parity Shift Jyhad cards, and non-Parity Shift vtes cards. - The thickness of the cards must be somewhat coherent. Don't start glueing paper on the cards, it *will* change the feeling in your deck. - The card must be recognizable, at least from text, title, illustration, or combination of these. Its text must be fully readible. For instance, that Birds of Paradize wouldn't be a good idea. Most players know you have to tap it to gain 1 of any colour, but some could think you have to pay 2. - Of course, all cards must be genuine Vtes cards, or official vekn cards printed fllowing the vekn tournament rules. You cannot photocopy (or print a scanned version of) other cards for tournaments. In the end: - Use felt-tip pens, markers (or paint markers), not brushes (paint will alter the thickness of the card) - Leave text readable and understandable (at least the important parts like numbers) - And post your work here, I'm sure lots of people will enjoy it I'll post my versions of "re-artworked" cards.

Thanks a lot Pascal. Could you explain a bit more that part please? The thickness of the cards must be somewhat coherent. Don't start glueing paper on the cards, it *will* change the feeling in your deck. Do you mean it would be illegal to create a set of Conditioning (www.vekn.net/images/stories/artworkdatabase/image/conditioning%20jyhad.jpg) with members of the Batman Family? Would those alterations be legal? - quit the red character. - add a message like "We want Return to Innocence back!" as if the other character were thinking. I have in mind cards that should be legal for sanctioned tournaments so I assume that using opaque sleeves is mandatory, isn't it? I do not really understand the relevance of the mix of Jyhad and Non-Jyhad cards What about the last set that should only be available using a printer: " You cannot photocopy (or print a scanned version of) other cards for tournaments." I am sorry, those questions may look specific but I have to know what I can ask to the artists. I am against asking them to work for free. Regards, Rémi. I am Rémi Cavaillé (), Barcelona (Spain). I was the Prince of Lyon (France) around 2003. I am now Official Judge and the 5th Prince of Barcelona. Enjoy VTES, Marvel Champions, L5R and more gaming activities in Khan Jugar: sites.google.com/view/khanjugar/

The rules quoted are there to basically mean: 1) Nobody should be able to identify the cards in your library, while they are face down in your library/crypt/uncontrolled. So, same thickness (or close enough), same backs, no side marks, etc, etc, etc. In effect, you should have no way to tell if the next card in your library is a Parity Shift or a Wake With Evening's Freshness unless you were allowed to look at the card in game. The earliest editions of the game did not have "Vampire" printed on the back but "Jyhad" printed on the back. Even in some opaque sleeves you can pick them apart. So as a rule, you can't have every copy of a particular card be a Jyhad card and you should have a number of different cards be a Jyhad card (that way you can't be sure what the Jyhad-backed card is on the top of your library/crypt) 2) Cards should still be able to be used/checked by new players. So the text should be the same, the card format should be similar, the necessary icons should all be present and clearly visible. The fact that you want to have Superman instead of Neo on your Deflections is bleh Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

Thanks Andrew. > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > 1) Nobody should be able to identify the cards in your library, while they are face down in your library/crypt/uncontrolled. > Is not the reason of using opaque sleeves to avoid this kind of problems. Until a few years ago opaque sleeves were required. Has it changed? Anyway, my only one concern is about to change the look of face-up cards. > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > 2) Cards should still be able to be used/checked by new players. > That is the first part of the info I need. - What are the parts of the cards that cannot be altered? - Would it be possible to re-write the card text, the card title, the card discipline icons, the name of the original artist using diferent police for example? Regards, Rémi. I am Rémi Cavaillé (), Barcelona (Spain). I was the Prince of Lyon (France) around 2003. I am now Official Judge and the 5th Prince of Barcelona. Enjoy VTES, Marvel Champions, L5R and more gaming activities in Khan Jugar: sites.google.com/view/khanjugar/

> Rémi wrote: > What are the parts of the cards that cannot be altered? > Text areas and symbol areas should not be altered in a way that makes the reading more difficult or that changes the text/symbols. > Rémi wrote: > Would it be possible to re-write the card text, the card title, the card discipline icons, the name of the original artist using diferent police for example > No. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Rémi wrote: > Thanks Andrew. > > > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > > 1) Nobody should be able to identify the cards in your library, while they are face down in your library/crypt/uncontrolled. > > > Is not the reason of using opaque sleeves to avoid this kind of problems. Until a few years ago opaque sleeves were required. Has it changed? > Anyway, my only one concern is about to change the look of face-up cards. > Opaque sleeves prevent you from (easily) identifying the card visually. The problem being addressed is tactile identification. Take a piece of paper and stick it to a card. Place the card face down. Run your fingers over the back of the card. If it alters the thickness, you will probably be able to tell what card it is. If if alters the thickness in particular places (e.g. you've stuck a piece of paper over only the picture of the vampire on the vampire card), it would be potentially possible to use this to mark your cards. Stick a sequin on the nose of the Sphinx on Dreams of the Sphinx and you would probably be able to easily identify it by touch, even when it's face down, in a sleeve. A wily player would be able to use this information when shuffling a deck or deciding whether to tap The Barrens or whatever else. If you draw on the card with, say, felt-tip pens or pens like metallic ink, the potential for making the card identifiable by touch is significantly reduced. Not necessarily entirely eliminated, and a judge might still have to intervene in egregious situations, but generally you'd hope not.

Thanks a lot Vincent !!! It is nice to read that you are still there Thinking about promotion of VTES... Many players of many games like altered cards, adding comment about that in the tournament rules could help people to think that VTES is a CCG like any other so they could have a look:) > jamesatzephyr wrote: > The problem being addressed is tactile identification. > Thanks James for your comment but I think we are not thinking of the same kind of altered cards. I took the example of Magic since its tournament rules and tournament organization requirement seem to be far more strict than Vtes'. Best Regards, Rémi. I am Rémi Cavaillé (), Barcelona (Spain). I was the Prince of Lyon (France) around 2003. I am now Official Judge and the 5th Prince of Barcelona. Enjoy VTES, Marvel Champions, L5R and more gaming activities in Khan Jugar: sites.google.com/view/khanjugar/

I still hate printer proxies. Can I use self-adhering labels on lets say a copy of Blooding to turn its title, text box, discipline Requirement area, art, artist credit, and (giggle) expansion symbol ito something less shitty but not printed, like show of force or inside dirt or #%#%#%#(edited due to NDA and principles....)? In essence, if I can use blaxk and silver sharpies to turn the art box of monkey wrench into a square Ramones logo,would I be permitted to modify other things within these guidlines in creating the cards for official but unprinted sets? Plainly, they are not printex per the rules, but if modified is allowed, how far is it allowed?

Hello, > ReverendRevolver wrote: > but if modified is allowed, how far is it allowed? > Isn't it Ankha's answer what you are looking for? > Ankha wrote: > > > Rémi wrote: > > What are the parts of the cards that cannot be altered? > > > Text areas and symbol areas should not be altered in a way that makes the reading more difficult or that changes the text/symbols. > > > Rémi wrote: > > Would it be possible to re-write the card text, the card title, the card discipline icons, the name of the original artist using diferent police for example > > > No. > Regards, Rémi. I am Rémi Cavaillé (), Barcelona (Spain). I was the Prince of Lyon (France) around 2003. I am now Official Judge and the 5th Prince of Barcelona. Enjoy VTES, Marvel Champions, L5R and more gaming activities in Khan Jugar: sites.google.com/view/khanjugar/

> Ankha wrote: > > > Rémi wrote: > > What are the parts of the cards that cannot be altered? > > > Text areas and symbol areas should not be altered in a way that makes the reading more difficult or that changes the text/symbols. > > > Rémi wrote: > > Would it be possible to re-write the card text, the card title, the card discipline icons, the name of the original artist using diferent police for example > > > No. > What if text and/or symbol areas Was altered to change printing errors/errated text?

That would be OK, I suppose, but only if the judge approves these cards (agrees to check, and checks that the written cardtext is indeed the up-to-date cardtext). If the judge doesn't have time, then, no. Which means it's safer to not write on cartext.

I think allowing this is a really bad idea. It moves focus from the game to "wow, look at my very special home-painted Conditioning". Also, it´s great to be able to regonize cards in play from the other side of the table. Yes, I know I am boring. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

On "mistake correcting": Can we get stickers issues for doing this? Cap circle for Caitlin, pool diamond with 1 on it for Gangrel revel, etc?

> Ashur wrote: > I think allowing this is a really bad idea. It moves focus from the game to "wow, look at my very special home-painted Conditioning". Also, it´s great to be able to regonize cards in play from the other side of the table. > > Yes, I know I am boring. > Im not sense depping you. The man in the art is smiling! That SAYS pentex, but theres a butterfly in the art, so its not so bad......

Hello, Here is an altered version of Dolphin Black by VB.ALTERED. Best Regards, Rémi. I am Rémi Cavaillé (), Barcelona (Spain). I was the Prince of Lyon (France) around 2003. I am now Official Judge and the 5th Prince of Barcelona. Enjoy VTES, Marvel Champions, L5R and more gaming activities in Khan Jugar: sites.google.com/view/khanjugar/