Dears,
Can a minion play deflection after failing to block another minion who played Faceless Night on this action?
It taps before of after this opportunity?
deflection
Dominate Only usable when you are being bled, after blocks are declined. Tap this reacting vampire. Choose another Methuselah other than the controller of the acting minion. The acting minion is now bleeding that Methuselah.
Dominate As above, but do not tap this vampire.
faceless night
Obfuscate +1 stealth.
Obfuscate +1 stealth, and any minion who attempts to block this action and fails becomes tapped when the action is resolved (before resolving the action).
thank you,
Roberto Mautone Jr.
Praetor
The action does not resolve until it is either blocked or nobody blocks at all. So yes, you can play Deflection when you fail to block Faceless Night.
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
Resolution means that the action succeeded or that the action was blocked and any resulting combats have finished.
> Rulebook wrote:
> 6.2.3. Resolve the Action
>
> If the action is successful (all block attempts were unsuccessful), then the cost of the action is paid and the effects of the successful action take place [and then any minions who attempted to block after Faceless Night at OBF are tapped]. If the action is blocked, then any card played to take the action is burned (it is moved to the ash heap) and the blocking minion is tapped and enters combat with the acting minion (see Combat, sec. 6.4) [and then after combat is resolved, any minions who attempted to block after Faceless Night at OBF are tapped].
>
When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike.
pckvtes.wordpress.com
@pckvtes
Nop.
You are tapped by faceless sup BEFORE combat occurs.
(and also BEFORE the referendum of a political action)
(groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/dVY0r64_f1Q/a6D4iBIC4yoJ)
> Timo wrote:
> Nop.
>
> You are tapped by faceless sup BEFORE combat occurs.
>
> (and also BEFORE the referendum of a political action)
>
> (groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/dVY0r64_f1Q/a6D4iBIC4yoJ)
>
Correct.
Faceless Night indicates that the minion is tapped "when the action is resolved" (this happens after it has been determined whether the action was blocked or successful, or cancelled, or failed), and "before resolving the action" (that is before the bleed is resolved, the referendum of a polical action conducted, or combat occurs if the action is blocked).
After blocks are declined, the acting minion can still play action modifier cards (eg. Condtioning) and the reacting minion reactions (eg. Deflection) before the bleed is resolved.
You can also make it fail or cancel it after blocks have been declined with appropriate cards.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Anyway Jeff's point is still correct that if Minion A plays sup Faceless night Minion B can play deflection prior to resolution [i.e. before it's blocked by someone else for instance and then continued e.g. form of mist]
Obfuscate +1 stealth, and any minion who attempts to block this action and fails becomes tapped when the action is resolved (before resolving the action).
Whats the point of ( before resolving the action )
LSJ 20061213 states: Ruling: Declaring that one is not blocking is implicit in playing Deflection (unlike playing Telepathic Counter). That is, Deflection (and other bleed bounce cards) are played after blocks are declined. [LSJ 20000507][LSJ 20061213]
If you MUST decline to block to play Deflection, you should be tapped by Faceless night before you can play Deflection , you can play with another minion or with Forced Awakening/On the Qui Vive
Archbishop of Itaocara
Prince ID #510
Actually, in VTES grammar, "before blah" means "just before blah".
So to be "before resolving the action" you must be about to enter combat or paying he cost of the action.
It means every opportuniy to play reactions and action modifiers have been dealt with.
> Sambomb wrote:
> If you MUST decline to block to play Deflection, you should be tapped by Faceless night before you can play Deflection , you can play with another minion or with Forced Awakening/On the Qui Vive
>
No, because the action isn't resolving yet. For instance, a bleed can be redirected to another Methuselah.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Sambomb wrote:
> Whats the point of ( before resolving the action )
>
> LSJ 20061213 states: Ruling: Declaring that one is not blocking is implicit in playing Deflection (unlike playing Telepathic Counter). That is, Deflection (and other bleed bounce cards) are played after blocks are declined. [LSJ 20000507][LSJ 20061213]
>
If this weren't ruled to be this way, players would have arguments about whether they exhausted their block attempts or not.
A: I bleed. Do you block?
B: ...
A: Do you block?
B: I play Deflection.
C: I cancel the Deflection with Direct Intervention.
A: I play Conditioning.
B: I block.
A: Hey wait! You already declined!
This crap happened all too frequently in some playgroups before this ruling. Gameplay is much cleaner with bounce implying blocks are declined.
When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike.
pckvtes.wordpress.com
@pckvtes
> Sambomb wrote:
> Obfuscate +1 stealth, and any minion who attempts to block this action and fails becomes tapped when the action is resolved (before resolving the action).
>
> Whats the point of ( before resolving the action )
>
It means that when you get on to resolving the action, you'll already be tapped. So, for example:
- the failed block minion will be tapped prior to conducting the referendum of the political action, so won't be able to play Delaying Tactics without a wake
- the failed block minion will be tapped prior to conducting the rush from Bum's Rush, and so will be unable to play Heaven's Gate (Combat card: "Only usable by a ready untapped vampire not involved in combat.")
And so on.
Declining to block doesn't immediately move you to resolution. If it did, you wouldn't be able to do this:
A: I bleed you with Arika.
B: I attempt to block with Lucita.
A: I play Lost in Crowds.
B: I decline to block.
You don't move to resolution now.
A: I play Conditioning.
B: I play Telepathic Counter.
If you'd moved to resolution, Conditioning and Telepathic Counter wouldn't be playable, because:
> Rulebook, wrote:
> Action modifiers and reaction cards can be played at any time before resolution during an action (unless otherwise noted on card text),
>
And neither of them say anything about being playable after resolution kicks in. So they get played before resolution.
Jeff, that rule is clear and the reason too.
The point that still confuse for me is: After fail ( decline ) to block the minion is tapped by Faceless Night?
Archbishop of Itaocara
Prince ID #510
So minion B attempted to block, but failed after minion A played Faceless Night. Minion C is successful their attempt to block. So minion B will tapped by FN "before" combat? This is (?) the same window as playing Obedience, so minion B will be tapped before minion C can play Obedience and cancel the action. Correct?
6.2.3. Resolve the Action
If the action is successful (all block attempts were unsuccessful), then the cost of the action is paid and the effects of the successful action take place. If the action is blocked, then any card played to take the action is burned (it is moved to the ash heap) and the blocking minion is tapped and enters combat with the acting minion (see Combat, sec. 6.4). The effects of the action do not take place when the action is blocked. Note that the action's cost, if any, is only paid if the action succeeds; the cost is not paid if the action is blocked. The costs of action modifiers and reaction cards are always paid when the cards are played, regardless of the success of the action.
Faceless Night
[obf] +1 stealth.
[OBF] +1 stealth, and any minion who attempts to block this action and fails becomes tapped when the action is resolved (before resolving the action).
> Sambomb wrote:
> The point that still confuse for me is: After fail ( decline ) to block the minion is tapped by Faceless Night?
>
Not immediately, no. They are tapped before the action resolves.
Example:
A: Arika bleeds you for 3.
B: Lucita attempts to block.
A: Arika plays Faceless Night for stealth.
B: Lucita declines to block. (Lucita is not tapped at this point.) Lucita plays Deflection, choosing player C.
C: Nergal attempts to block. He has a Bowl of Convergence for some intercept.
A: Arika plays Lost in Crowds, giving her more stealth than you.
C: Okay. Nergal declines to block. (Nergal is not tapped at this point.) Maureen, Dark Priestess plays Deflection. (Because she has inferior Dominate, Maureen is tapped by this.) I choose player B.
B: Oh. Hi there. Um, I can't block.
(The whole table implicitly declines to block with Eagle Sight and whatever.)
Neither Lucita or Nergal tap yet.
A: Okay, I play Conditioning for more bleed.
B: Oh, poo, that's going to oust me. I play Telepathic Counter with Quira, the Bitch Queen. *redraws card* Oh, and that doesn't give me anything else, so I'm still going to be ousted.
E: No, I don't want A (my prey) getting a VP, so I play Folderol with my Kiasyd.
A: Poop.
B: Yay!
No-one plays anything else.
Now we want to move on to resolving the action.
Now, before we resolve the action, we tap Lucita and Nergal.
Now we resolve the action, and B burns some pool, A gets the Edge etc.
Then the action of bleed is the only one that is not resolved after block decline?
IV - D - 2 - If action was not blocked, then the action is successful. [6.2.3]
Pay cost of the action.
Resolve action.
After block decline I must pay the cost if the bleed action is a Legal Manipulation for example.
In my mind you can only "bounce" after you receive the bleed ( So Tapped by Faceless Night ) like play a political reaction only after a political action pass the block step.
Archbishop of Itaocara
Prince ID #510
A - bleed B
B - decline block to play deflection
Can C use Eagle Sight to block the bleed BEFORE the deflection?
If Yes and the bleed is not blocked (because Faceless Night) and is bounced to C, C can try again with the same minion?
Archbishop of Itaocara
Prince ID #510
> Sambomb wrote:
> Then the action of bleed is the only one that is not resolved after block decline?
>
> IV - D - 2 - If action was not blocked, then the action is successful. [6.2.3]
> Pay cost of the action.
> Resolve action.
>
> After block decline I must pay the cost if the bleed action is a Legal Manipulation for example.
> In my mind you can only "bounce" after you receive the bleed ( So Tapped by Faceless Night ) like play a political reaction only after a political action pass the block step.
>
Nope
You can throw a lot of action mod/reaction between the decline block part and the resolution part.
For example, you have :
Babble
[Reaction] Reaction
[Dementation] Dementation
[dem] Give another ready minion +1 intercept.
[DEM] Tap this vampire to untap another ready minion. Not usable by a blocking minion
Detect Authority
[Reaction] Reaction
[Animalism] Animalism
[Serpentis] Serpentis
[Thaumaturgy] Thaumaturgy
Requires an anarch.
[ani] Only usable during a action directed at a minion or location you control. The action ends (no cost is paid), unless the acting minion burns 2 blood immediately.
[ser] +1 intercept.
[tha] Reduce a bleed against you by 2.
High Orun
[Action Modifier] Action Modifier
[Reaction] Reaction
[Burn Option]
Requires a Laibon with three or more Orun.
For the remainder of this action, cards that require any Disciplines cost this Laibon 1 less blood, and your hand size is one card larger.
> Sambomb wrote:
> A - bleed B
> B - decline block to play deflection
>
> Can C use Eagle Sight to block the bleed BEFORE the deflection?
>
> If Yes and the bleed is not blocked (because Faceless Night) and is bounced to C, C can try again with the same minion?
>
Actually, A need to ask C (and D and E) if they want to block and so C would have the opportunity to play Eale sight and after that, he would have the opportunity to play action mod "after block are declined" and when he pass, B would have the opportunity to play deflection (or any other reaction playable in this window).
If C play eagle sight and don't succed to block and then B play deflection, a new block attempt window is open and C can attempt to block.
If no "this minion can not block this action" effect has been played (such as elder impersonation) then C can attempt to block with the same minion (but could not play eagle sight again with him).
> Sambomb wrote:
> Then the action of bleed is the only one that is not resolved after block decline?
>
No, and no other action works like you claim either.
> Sambomb wrote:
> IV - D - 2 - If action was not blocked, then the action is successful. [6.2.3]
> Pay cost of the action.
> Resolve action.
>
This is when you've moved on to completing the action, which is after everyone has declined to block. IV.C.5. Also note that if you're reading the CRR, there is no opportunity ever to play any +bleed action modifier - it doesn't say "Oh, and you can play cards here. And here. And here." at every point.
Also, as per the rulebook:
> Rulebook wrote:
> If a block fails (the acting minion's stealth exceeds the blocker's intercept and the blocker's Methuselah cannot add or does not wish to add more intercept), either another attempt is made (with the same or a different minion) or the defending Methuselah declares that she will not make any further attempts to block the action. Note that this declaration is an effect and so allows the acting Methuselah (and others) to play more cards and effects.
>
> Sarah announces that Quentin is bleeding Alexis. Sarah has no effects that she wishes to play before Alexis decides whether to block, so Sarah says "Do you block?" Alexis decides not to block, so then Sarah plays Confusion (an action modifier that adds 1 to the bleed). Alexis is bled for 2 pool.
>
At the point that you say "No block", the impulse goes back to the acting Methuselah (and then everyone in turn, using the normal sequencing rules) to play all manner of effects, now they know that the action is unblocked, but not yet moved resolution. These are sometimes more prominent in bleed actions, such as bleed modifiers/reducers and bouncers, but you could, for example:
- have a vampire Bum's Rush one of your vampires, attempt to block, fail, and then play Faerie Wards
Only usable when an ally or younger vampire is taking a action against you.
[reaction] [myt] The action fails. Tap this reacting vampire.
- a similar situation with Hide
[reaction power] Only usable during a monster's action targeting this imbued. The action fails.
Basically an action can't resolve until EVERYONE declines to block... until there are literally no valid blocks, then the action heads to resolution...
OR
A minion blocks the action.
If you trigger either one of those two events, then every minion that attempted but did not block a minion that played Faceless Night will tap.
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> Basically an action can't resolve until EVERYONE declines to block... until there are literally no valid blocks, then the action heads to resolution...
>
> OR
>
> A minion blocks the action.
>
> If you trigger either one of those two events, then every minion that attempted but did not block a minion that played Faceless Night will tap.
>
Yes but it is not the point here because we are basically speaking of this "the action heads to resolution" phase during which some modifiers and reactions can be played (eg deflection) and which have to be completed before tapping with faceless night or with a succesfull block
Deflection can only be played after ALL minions decline to block/cancel the bleed.
Faceless Night Tap the blocking minion after ALL minions decline to block/cancel.
But you still can play deflection after the block decline?
Deflection is a bleed reaction only, like scalpel tongue is a referendum reaction and if faceless is applied to a political action the scalpel tongue can't be played because the minion will be tapped but deflection can be played.
The point is: When the bleed is considered resolved?
IMO is when the block phase ends and the cost ( if any ) is pay.
Then you can play bleed reactions like bleed reductors, bleed bouncers, Archon Investigation, etc
Archbishop of Itaocara
Prince ID #510
Well no, "resolution" is when you actually carry out the effect of the action. In the case of bleed, that means the point at which you pick up your beads and lose pool. At that point, the effect is set. You can no longer play bleed reducers or increases, or bounce, or AI.
So basically, by the definition of resolution, it MUST happen after all those things, since those things determine what the "resolution" will do.
Resolution means that the action succeeded or that the action was blocked and any resulting combats have finished.
> Rulebook wrote:
> 6.2.3. Resolve the Action
>
> If the action is successful (all block attempts were unsuccessful), then the cost of the action is paid and the effects of the successful action take place. If the action is blocked, then any card played to take the action is burned (it is moved to the ash heap) and the blocking minion is tapped and enters combat with the acting minion (see Combat, sec. 6.4)
>
And of course, blocking attempts to be unsuccessful to get to resolution, in order:
1) targets decline
2) If undirected action, predator and prey decline
3) Eagle's Sight window declines
4) Anneke window declines (iirc 3 & 4 are separate windows, could be wrong)
When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike.
pckvtes.wordpress.com
@pckvtes
> Jeff wrote:
> Resolution means that the action succeeded or that the action was blocked and any resulting combats have finished.
>
> > Rulebook wrote:
> > 6.2.3. Resolve the Action
> >
> > If the action is successful (all block attempts were unsuccessful), then the cost of the action is paid and the effects of the successful action take place. If the action is blocked, then any card played to take the action is burned (it is moved to the ash heap) and the blocking minion is tapped and enters combat with the acting minion (see Combat, sec. 6.4)
> >
> And of course, blocking attempts to be unsuccessful to get to resolution, in order:
> 1) targets decline
> 2) If undirected action, predator and prey decline
> 3) Eagle's Sight window declines
> 4) Anneke window declines (iirc 3 & 4 are separate windows, could be wrong)
>
Jeff that is my point!
After all this the bleed is "resolved" and then the bleed only reactions like reducers and bounces can be played.
Archbishop of Itaocara
Prince ID #510
> Sambomb wrote:
> After all this the bleed is "resolved" and then the bleed only reactions like reducers and bounces can be played.
>
If Methuselahs are still playing cards, then the action is still not "resolved" because the action modifiers and reactions could still change the outcome of said action.
When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike.
pckvtes.wordpress.com
@pckvtes
> Sambomb wrote:
> Faceless Night Tap the blocking minion after ALL minions decline to block/cancel.
>
No. As per card text, Faceless Night taps you before the action is resolved. That is not at this point.
> Sambomb wrote:
> IMO is when the block phase ends and the cost ( if any ) is pay.
>
These two things don't happen simultaneously, though! You don't pay for Govern the Unaligned and then play Conditioning afterwards.
Blocks are declined. Everyone - per the section of rulebook I quoted - gets the opportunity to play effects because of that. Once everyone passes on those extra effects (or any more of them), you move to action resolution.
> Jeff wrote:
>
> > Sambomb wrote:
> > After all this the bleed is "resolved" and then the bleed only reactions like reducers and bounces can be played.
> >
> If Methuselahs are still playing cards, then the action is still not "resolved" because the action modifiers and reactions could still change the outcome of said action.
>
So if instead of a bleed I make a political action ( Methuselahs are still playing cards ) the referendum starts and the blocking vampire is not tapped and can play reactions in the political action?
Archbishop of Itaocara
Prince ID #510
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
>
> > Sambomb wrote:
> > Faceless Night Tap the blocking minion after ALL minions decline to block/cancel.
> >
> No. As per card text, Faceless Night taps you before the action is resolved. That is not at this point.
>
> > Sambomb wrote:
> > IMO is when the block phase ends and the cost ( if any ) is pay.
> >
> These two things don't happen simultaneously, though! You don't pay for Govern the Unaligned and then play Conditioning afterwards.
>
> Blocks are declined. Everyone - per the section of rulebook I quoted - gets the opportunity to play effects because of that. Once everyone passes on those extra effects (or any more of them), you move to action resolution.
>
Conditioning is an Action Modifier and can be played ( and pay the cost ) before the block phase ends, after the action cost is pay is considered resolved and then start a new phase to resolve the final result.
That new phase is when you react to a referendum, combat, bleed, etc...
Archbishop of Itaocara
Prince ID #510
Huh?
You act. Someone blocks. You play faceless night at OBF.
Your prey, or whoever, has no further blocks.
Anyone else who can block can try, so predator or eagles sight or whatever.
Now, if blocks are declined, people deflect, reduce, DT, etc.
At any of these times, you can conditioning or whatever.
Now, a bleed action would at this point burn pool and RESOLVE. The FNd blocker taps.
Political action is sucessful. Go to referendom. Pass or fail or delay. Votes terms named, votes cast, then totaled. Passes or fails, voter cap, whatever. Now apply effects and the action resolves.
Euip/employ/recruit, action unblocked, success, put card where it goes and action resolves.
Combat, after combat ends without things such as form of mist or earthmeld happening, action resolves.
When the minion who is acting is no longer acting is the easiest way to tell an action has resolved. You are still acting until resolution, so an untapped assamite who you faceless night at SUP got by can still tap to foul blood yoir hunt action, etc, because they tap when the action resolves.
> Sambomb wrote:
> Conditioning is an Action Modifier and can be played ( and pay the cost ) before the block phase ends, after the action cost is pay is considered resolved and then start a new phase to resolve the final result.
>
> That new phase is when you react to a referendum, combat, bleed, etc...
>
Err, no, the game doesn't work like this. In that phase - if it existed in the manner you describe, which it doesn't - the ordinary sequencing rules would pass the impulse back to the acting Methuselah after every effect was played (see the rulebook, 1.6.1.5).
You can - in the general case - play reactions prior to deciding to decline to block. Bounce is not playable here due to explicit card text, but this is not so for a variety of other reactions. For example, prior to deciding to decline to block, I can:
- play Telepathic Counter, hoping to draw into some more intercept
- play Faerie Wards, to just outright fail the action
- play an unnecessary wake card (say, On the Qui Vive) with a minion, even though you're not going to try to block or do anything with them, in the hope of drawing into some intercept
- play Aversion at any level (cel/val/VAL)
- play Glare of Lies, to decide whether it's worth trying to block (perhaps you can see that they have a boatload of stealth in their hand)
- play Rat's Warning to untap, so that that vampire can choose to attempt a block
And plenty of other reactions too.
Further, the cost of an action is not paid prior to a minion playing Deflection. The action is not considered resolved at the point you claim it is considered resolved. Actions do not immediately move to resolution when blocks are declined, no matter how many times you claim the opposite is true.
> Sambomb wrote:
> So if instead of a bleed I make a political action ( Methuselahs are still playing cards ) the referendum starts and the blocking vampire is not tapped and can play reactions in the political action?
>
Here's an example:
Vampire A calls a Kine Resources Contested.
As the action is announced, Vampire A plays Seduction, to take out a potential blocker.
Vampire A's controller asks for block attempts. +1 stealth so far.
Vampire B (untapped) attempts to block, using Second Tradition: Domain for +2 intercept.
Vampire A plays Faceless Night. +2 stealth.
Vampire A plays Cloak the Gathering. +3 stealth.
Vampire B's block is unsuccessful.
Everyone declines to block.
The action does not immediately move to resolution. The action is unblocked, but not yet resolving. No cost is paid for the action - for example, a political action would cost Lorrie Dunsirn one pool, but that cost is not paid yet, and similarly Black Annis.
Per the rulebook, because declining to block is treated as an effect, everyone gets an opportunity, starting with the acting Methuselah, to play cards and effects, following the normal sequencing rules. Various Methuselahs pass on this opportunity.
Vampire C plays Hide the Heart at [val], in order to make the action fail.
Vampire A uses the option on Hide the Heart to cancel that effect.
Everyone passes on playing further effects right now.
Up until this point, Vampire B is still untapped.
The action moves to resolution.
Vampire B is now tapped by Faceless Night's text, having failed to block.
Now conduct the referendum for the political action.
Vampire B cannot play reactions like Dread Gaze, unless Vampire B plays a wake of some sort, because they were tapped.
> ReverendRevolver wrote:
> Huh?
>
> You act. Someone blocks. You play faceless night at OBF.
>
> Your prey, or whoever, has no further blocks.
>
> Anyone else who can block can try, so predator or eagles sight or whatever.
>
> Now, if blocks are declined, people deflect, reduce, DT, etc.
>
> At any of these times, you can conditioning or whatever.
>
> Now, a bleed action would at this point burn pool and RESOLVE. The FNd blocker taps.
>
> Political action is sucessful. Go to referendom. Pass or fail or delay. Votes terms named, votes cast, then totaled. Passes or fails, voter cap, whatever. Now apply effects and the action resolves.
>
> Euip/employ/recruit, action unblocked, success, put card where it goes and action resolves.
>
> Combat, after combat ends without things such as form of mist or earthmeld happening, action resolves.
>
> When the minion who is acting is no longer acting is the easiest way to tell an action has resolved. You are still acting until resolution, so an untapped assamite who you faceless night at SUP got by can still tap to foul blood yoir hunt action, etc, because they tap when the action resolves.
>
+1 stealth, and any minion who attempts to block this action and fails becomes tapped when the action is resolved (before resolving the action).
And what about this text on the card? When it applies?
James your answer contradict the reverend answer.
Who is right?
Archbishop of Itaocara
Prince ID #510
> Sambomb wrote:
> +1 stealth, and any minion who attempts to block this action and fails becomes tapped when the action is resolved (before resolving the action).
> And what about this text on the card? When it applies?
>
It applies before resolving the action. Like it says on the card. The problem is that you keep completely upending the rules by doing things like having the action resolve and the action paid for before anyone plays bounce, which is completely the opposite of reality.
In the case of a successful action (leaving bounce out of the equation momentarily), this is:
- after blocks are declined (the action does not move to resolution at this point)
- now everyone gets the opportunity to play effects such as, but not limited to, Conditioning, Faerie Wards, Telepathic Counter, or whatever else, that they might choose to play knowing the action is successful
- everyone eventually passes on their right to play more such effects
- the action moves on to resolution
- tap now, per the text on Faceless Night
- resolve the action, such as burning pool for a bleed, conducting the referendum of a political action, entering combat from a Bum's Rush etc.
In the case of a blocked action, this is:
- after the block is succesful
- now everyone gets the opportunity to play effects, knowing that the block is successful, which might involve playing a few cards uselessly to cycle their hand, or might involve
- everyone eventually passes on their right to play more such effects
- now the action moves to resolution
- tap now, per text on Faceless Night
- resolve the action, by conducting the block combat
In the case of an apparently successful bleed action that gets bounced:
- the action is apparently successful, because the bleeder has more stealth than the blocker has intercept (or there is no blocker)
- blocks are declined (the action does not move to resolution at this point)
- the reacting Methuselah plays Deflection, selecting another Methuselah
- with the change of target, the blocking window re-opens. The new target can choose to block, selecting a blocker, indulging in a stealth/intercept fight with the acting minion etc. This can then go one of three ways:
1) the action is successful, so it works like a successful action (above)
2) the action is blocked, so it works like a block action (above)
3) blocks are declined and the action is bounced again, so follow this section again, re-opening the blocking window
Note that re-opening the blocking window with a bounce allows a player to reverse a decision not to block. For example, if I'd asked the entire table to decline to block (because player C might have blocked cross-table with Anneke, for example) and it gets bounced to player C, player C now has the opportunity to block. As do other people, if they have Eagle Sight or whatever and want to stop C being bled for whatever resaon, but this primarily affects C.
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
> Note that re-opening the blocking window with a bounce allows a player to reverse a decision not to block.
>
Nit: This doesn't really reverse the decision not to block. That decision was made and play has moved on. But since there is a new target of the bleed after a bounce effect occurs, all the blocking windows are re-opened and new decisions may be made since the state of the action is different.
When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike.
pckvtes.wordpress.com
@pckvtes
> Jeff wrote:
> Nit: This doesn't really reverse the decision not to block. That decision was made and play has moved on. But since there is a new target of the bleed after a bounce effect occurs, all the blocking windows are re-opened and new decisions may be made since the state of the action is different.
>
What meaningful difference do you believe you are communicating?
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
> What meaningful difference do you believe you are communicating?
>
It's a new decision, not changing an old decision because there is a new set of blocking windows. They are separate and distinct choices to be made.
When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike.
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@pckvtes
> Jeff wrote:
>
> > jamesatzephyr wrote:
> > What meaningful difference do you believe you are communicating?
> >
> It's a new decision, not changing an old decision because there is a new set of blocking windows. They are separate and distinct choices to be made.
>
Oh, you mean exactly as described in the following sentences?
For example, if I'd asked the entire table to decline to block (because player C might have blocked cross-table with Anneke, for example) and it gets bounced to player C, player C now has the opportunity to block. As do other people, if they have Eagle Sight or whatever and want to stop C being bled for whatever resaon, but this primarily affects C.
Nothing about "reversing a decision" implies a time machine. I made a decision. At a later point, I had an opportunity to change my mind. I changed it. Ta-da! No time machine involved.
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
>
> > Sambomb wrote:
> > The point that still confuse for me is: After fail ( decline ) to block the minion is tapped by Faceless Night?
> >
> Not immediately, no. They are tapped before the action resolves.
>
> Example:
>
> A: Arika bleeds you for 3.
> B: Lucita attempts to block.
> A: Arika plays Faceless Night for stealth.
> B: Lucita declines to block. (Lucita is not tapped at this point.) Lucita plays Deflection, choosing player C.
> C: Nergal attempts to block. He has a Bowl of Convergence for some intercept.
> A: Arika plays Lost in Crowds, giving her more stealth than you.
> C: Okay. Nergal declines to block. (Nergal is not tapped at this point.) Maureen, Dark Priestess plays Deflection. (Because she has inferior Dominate, Maureen is tapped by this.) I choose player B.
> B: Oh. Hi there. Um, I can't block.
> (The whole table implicitly declines to block with Eagle Sight and whatever.)
> Neither Lucita or Nergal tap yet.
> A: Okay, I play Conditioning for more bleed.
> B: Oh, poo, that's going to oust me. I play Telepathic Counter with Quira, the Bitch Queen. *redraws card* Oh, and that doesn't give me anything else, so I'm still going to be ousted.
> E: No, I don't want A (my prey) getting a VP, so I play Folderol with my Kiasyd.
> A: Poop.
> B: Yay!
> No-one plays anything else.
> Now we want to move on to resolving the action.
> Now, before we resolve the action, we tap Lucita and Nergal.
> Now we resolve the action, and B burns some pool, A gets the Edge etc.
>
Ankha we need this official answer,can you confirm if this scenario correct
> beslin wrote:
>
> > jamesatzephyr wrote:
> >
> > > Sambomb wrote:
> > > The point that still confuse for me is: After fail ( decline ) to block the minion is tapped by Faceless Night?
> > >
> > >
> > Not immediately, no. They are tapped before the action resolves.
> >
> > Example:
> >
> > A: Arika bleeds you for 3.
> > B: Lucita attempts to block.
> > A: Arika plays Faceless Night for stealth.
> > B: Lucita declines to block. (Lucita is not tapped at this point.) Lucita plays Deflection, choosing player C.
> > C: Nergal attempts to block. He has a Bowl of Convergence for some intercept.
> > A: Arika plays Lost in Crowds, giving her more stealth than you.
> > C: Okay. Nergal declines to block. (Nergal is not tapped at this point.) Maureen, Dark Priestess plays Deflection. (Because she has inferior Dominate, Maureen is tapped by this.) I choose player B.
> > B: Oh. Hi there. Um, I can't block.
> > (The whole table implicitly declines to block with Eagle Sight and whatever.)
> > Neither Lucita or Nergal tap yet.
> > A: Okay, I play Conditioning for more bleed.
> > B: Oh, poo, that's going to oust me. I play Telepathic Counter with Quira, the Bitch Queen. *redraws card* Oh, and that doesn't give me anything else, so I'm still going to be ousted.
> > E: No, I don't want A (my prey) getting a VP, so I play Folderol with my Kiasyd.
> > A: Poop.
> > B: Yay!
> > No-one plays anything else.
> > Now we want to move on to resolving the action.
> > Now, before we resolve the action, we tap Lucita and Nergal.
> > Now we resolve the action, and B burns some pool, A gets the Edge etc.
> >
> Ankha we need this official answer,can you confirm if this scenario correct
>
It is.
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