shuffel the deck

Hi Had some troubles when I shuffel my deck. It just says it is totaly random. But it isn't. Does anybody know how to fix this?

Why do you think it isn't?

well, drawing 4 of the same vampire in that starting crypt knda gave me a clue. And the same cards are almost always paired. It might be shuffeled some what, but not good enough. Before you could shuffel as many times as you wanted.

Real life shuffling can result in clumping. If you want a completely even distribution of cards, then it isn't random. To get your cards less clumped, then you need to turn around after a game, break them all into a small number of piles that contain the same cards in different orders and then shuffle those together. That will give you a more evenly distributed set of cards, but it is deliberately partly randomised. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Real life shuffling can result in clumping. If you want a completely even distribution of cards, then it isn't random. > > To get your cards less clumped, then you need to turn around after a game, break them all into a small number of piles that contain the same cards in different orders and then shuffle those together. That will give you a more evenly distributed set of cards, but it is deliberately partly randomised. > Heh It's about Lackey and online shuffling klubtitanatlas.hr/ former NC for Croatia

> Baaliprimogen wrote: > Hi > Had some troubles when I shuffel my deck. It just says it is totaly random. But it isn't. Does anybody know how to fix this? > I do not play on the Lackey system, but if they do it anything like JOL does it -- which seems likely -- then what is happening is that your deck is getting RANDOMIZED, not SHUFFLED. Randomization leads (eventually) to seeing ALL the permutations of draws that exist, whereas shuffling leads only to a portion of the possible draws. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

That's kind of my point. Random isn't shuffled. Shuffling of cards doesn't provide pure randomisation, and even distribution of cards through the deck is far from random. Most of us want to shuffle the cards until they are effectively evenly distributed. We don't want to have them entirely randomised where we can get 8 Immortal Grapples in a row with taste of vitae for example. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

Well. Okay. It seems the library is good shuffled. But the crypt is not. I look at it and first i get 4 of VAMP-A, the 4 of VAMP-B and at last 4 of VAMP-C. So I guess i have to reveal the crypt and shuffle.

These are 2 different decks, you need to shuffle the library and the crypt separately. Library -> shuffle Crypt -> shuffle

Yes, you need to select and shuffle each deck. One shuffling change the order of some cards in your deck list; you need to shuffle a lot to have a correct shuffled deck. I shuffle the Crypt 5 times, and the Library more than 25 times. * * * * * * *

> Non-existant user wrote: > These are 2 different decks, you need to shuffle the library and the crypt separately. > > Library -> shuffle > Crypt -> shuffle > I'm still laughing my ass off... NC for Hungary hunfragment.blogspot.com

Old version of VTES Plugin don't automatically shuffle card from crypt, you need shuffle it manually. In new version both piles (library an crypt) are shuffled, but like other perople said Lackey randomize the cards and results is not always good. I recommend players shuffle their card piles 3 or 5 times, this help a little. Fernando Cesar - Sydnelson LackeyCCG and OCTGN VtES Mantainer Prince of Rio de Janeiro Powerbase Rio de Janeiro

> Sydnelson wrote: > Old version of VTES Plugin don't automatically shuffle card from crypt, you need shuffle it manually. > > In new version both piles (library an crypt) are shuffled, but like other perople said Lackey randomize the cards and results is not always good. > > I recommend players shuffle their card piles 3 or 5 times, this help a little. > Assuming that Lackey truly randomizes the cards, how is it possible to randomize them "more"? This is a perception problem that JOLers have, too. Randomization means RANDOM. You're going to get all different kinds of ordering when you randomize. Random doesn't equal shuffle. Shuffling involves a human and it's always, always going to be less-random than "random". Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

It's about randomize code. The results is better if you do more times because the first time all cards same cards are grouped. Second and other times cards are scattered over the pile and better than first randomize. Sorry for my bad english Fernando Cesar - Sydnelson LackeyCCG and OCTGN VtES Mantainer Prince of Rio de Janeiro Powerbase Rio de Janeiro

> Sydnelson wrote: > It's about randomize code. The results is better if you do more times because the first time all cards same cards are grouped. Second and other times cards are scattered over the pile and better than first randomize. > > Sorry for my bad english > Your English is good. I'm saying that if you need to randomize the cards multiple times then the algorithm that you're using isn't sufficient, and isn't randomizing the cards. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

Maybe you could have the algorithm run itself a few times instead of once by default?

The problem is I don't write the Lackey program, I already talk about it with main Lackey programmer but he said that algorithm is OK. Fernando Cesar - Sydnelson LackeyCCG and OCTGN VtES Mantainer Prince of Rio de Janeiro Powerbase Rio de Janeiro

Here is the author's answer: www.lackeyccg.com/forum/index.php?topic=358.msg7831#msg7831 Randomizing is much easier to program than trying to simulate some kind of hand shuffling.

After having shuffled a deck, it should be close to "randomized". If one feels there's a difference between his deck IRL and his deck in Lackey, it means one doesn't shuffle correctly (and this may be considered as cheating). For my part, I perform 9 rifle shuffle between each round (sometimes more) which is good enough (according to some math article I read some time ago). I like to have my deck randomized. And I like to do the same with my prey's library. There was already many threads about this on the newsgroup, including: groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/browse_thread/thread/87c1a304d1fbfae0/b87fd139765ef720?lnk=gst Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Bayou wrote: > I shuffle the Crypt 5 times, and the Library more than 25 times. > how do you do this? I get a message saying "you cannot shuffle your library, it has already been shuffled" or something similar.

> tarantulus wrote: > > > Bayou wrote: > > I shuffle the Crypt 5 times, and the Library more than 25 times. > > > how do you do this? I get a message saying "you cannot shuffle your library, it has already been shuffled" or something similar. > It is no longer possible (or necessary). Shuffled once or 25 times leads to the same result (the deck is randomized). Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

You can do so, by right clicking the library and selecting: Reveal All To > None & Shuffle. I tend to do this at least twice. Ke Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook

Why twice? Do you not trust the "randomize" function of Lackey?

*Puts on a big Shreck Head ready to start trolling KJM and a few others* If its anything like JOL-Shuffle it will manage to completely screw you over because it can... no matter how you shuffle it or don't!! Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Pascal wrote: > Why twice? Do you not trust the "randomize" function of Lackey? > The first shuffle in Lackey is beyond poor. I'm not sure if the developer has tested it with decks containing multiple copies of the same card, but it clumps on a level rarely seen in real life. Shuffling multiple times seems to mitigate this... Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook

> Ke. wrote: > level rarely seen in real life > Because "in real life" you don't really shuffle is another option. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ke. wrote: > I'm not sure if the developer has tested it with decks containing multiple copies of the same card, but it clumps on a level rarely seen in real life. Shuffling multiple times seems to mitigate this... > Seriously, people take a randomly shuffled deck for a not random deck about 100% of the time. It's hardwired in our brain. Statistics, and ONLY statistics are able to see what is random and what is not.

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > *Puts on a big Shreck Head ready to start trolling KJM and a few others* > > If its anything like JOL-Shuffle it will manage to completely screw you over because it can... no matter how you shuffle it or don't!! > Whiners never win, and winners never whine. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

> Ke. wrote: > > > Pascal wrote: > > Why twice? Do you not trust the "randomize" function of Lackey? > > > The first shuffle in Lackey is beyond poor. I'm not sure if the developer has tested it with decks containing multiple copies of the same card, but it clumps on a level rarely seen in real life. Shuffling multiple times seems to mitigate this... > Yes, i agree; now, Lackey shuffles automatically the decks before the game, but it's beyond poor; and before the 'shuffling fix', it was worse. In games with 'big' decks, it is more problematic, you have to shuffle more. Now, you can shuffle after using some function that affects the game, per example after drawing the crypt or what said Ke.(revealing to none and shuffle). * * * * * * *