Here is a question :
If vamp A play kraken's kiss at superior and the opponant play S:CE and then A plays TT sup.
Does the sup effect of KK is lost ?
(I think not but I prefer some confirmation ^^)
Kraken's Kiss
[Combat] Combat
[Vicissitude] Vicissitude
[1 Blood]
[vic] Strike: strength+1 ranged damage. If this striking minion takes more than 3 damage this combat, he or she goes to torpor.
[VIC] As above, with an optional press, only usable to continue combat, and once each round for the remainder of combat, this vampire may strike to steal two blood at close or long range.
Telepathic Tracking
[Combat] Combat
[Auspex] Auspex
[1 Blood]
[aus] Press, only usable to continue combat. If another round of combat occurs, this vampire gets an optional maneuver during that round.
[AUS] Only usable at the end of a round when both combatants are still ready and combat is about to end. The round ends, but combat does not end; another round starts.
> Ankha wrote:
> The combat continues with TT. All the effects running for the combat are still active.
>
Sure, but in that case KK does not resolve because of the opponent's strike : combat ends.
The question is "do you get the steal blood effect, and the torpor drawback effect for playing the card or for effectively striking ?"
I believe it's the latter, i.e. KK does not let you steal blood nor does it send you in torpor if you take more than 3 damage in the OP's case. But I'm not so sure.
Played. The KK stays in play and all effects stay active (can still steal blood and/or be sent to torpor by a sewer lid). Both strikes were played, the TT forces another round despite the s:ce.
It's not like psyche, which starts a new combat, TT is a press. It would be the same were the damage prevented as well.
> FrançoisV wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> > The combat continues with TT. All the effects running for the combat are still active.
> >
> Sure, but in that case KK does not resolve because of the opponent's strike : combat ends.
>
> The question is "do you get the steal blood effect, and the torpor drawback effect for playing the card or for effectively striking ?"
>
> I believe it's the latter, i.e. KK does not let you steal blood nor does it send you in torpor if you take more than 3 damage in the OP's case. But I'm not so sure.
>
I answered a bit hastily.
Rulebook:
> Combat Ends. This effect ends combat immediately. This type of strike is always the first to resolve, even before a strike done with first strike, and it ends combat before other strikes or other strike resolution effects are resolved. Combat ends is effective at any range. Combat ends is not affected by a dodge, since dodge only cancels effects that are directed at the dodging minion.
>
KK never resolves, it doesn't provide its bonus/drawback.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Is there another example of strike card that have other effect(s) not directly related to the strike ?
Because actually, I tend to see it as Soonerborn state it : the strike as no effect but the card has still been played and all it's effects are to be considered.
And your rulebook quote is'nt relevant IMO because it says "strikes or other strike resolution effects are resolved" and I am not sur that the as above of KK is a strike resolution effect.
(It is actualy the point of my question ^^)
Maybe Floppy could answer this ?
> Timo wrote:
> Is there another example of strike card that have other effect(s) not directly related to the strike ?
>
I was thinking of sup Aid From Bats or sup Thrown Sewer Lid at first but the question of whether you get the press or not is kinda moot ^^
I've found these for now :
Supposing that vamp A plays the strike in question, vamp B plays strike : combat ends, vamp A plays telepathic tracking.
> Forearm Block :
> Strike: prevent 2 damage from the opposing minion's next hand strike this round (including any currently-resolving hand strike). If another round of combat occurs, this minion gets first strike on his or her initial strike that round.
>
Does vamp A get first strike in the following round ?
> Taming the beast :
> [abo] Strike: hand strike at +1 damage. This combat, this minion cannot cancel frenzy cards nor press to end.
>
Does the "cannot cancel frenzy cards" limitation kick in ?
By the way, vamp A plays Taming the Beast, vamp B declares aggravated hand strike and then Rotschreck. Can A cancel the Rotschreck, since Taming the Beast has not resolved yet ?
You have quite interesting questions !
but I think you should start another topic for the sake of Floppy's sanity
EDIT : I mean about the r¨tschreck part. The rest is obviously related !
It is a related question (the rotschreck part) :
If the drawback is tied to the resolution of the strike, you can cancel Rotschreck.
If it is tied to the play of the card, you can't ^^
I think I have found something which is related :
groups.google.com/forum/?hl=fr#!topic/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/J1V7HOb2tQE
It says by LSJ :
A dodge negates all of the effects the strike would have on the dodging
minion. It doesn't negate a press (e.g., dodging a superior Thrown Sewer Lid
won't negate the press).
So I guess that as long as the strike card is not cancelled and the other effect is not related to the strike, a S:CE followed by a TT will see the other effects given by the strike card applied as normal.
> Timo wrote:
> I think I have found something which is related :
>
> groups.google.com/forum/?hl=fr#!topic/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/J1V7HOb2tQE
>
> It says by LSJ :
>
> A dodge negates all of the effects the strike would have on the dodging
> minion. It doesn't negate a press (e.g., dodging a superior Thrown Sewer Lid
> won't negate the press).
>
> So I guess that as long as the strike card is not cancelled and the other effect is not related to the strike, a S:CE followed by a TT will see the other effects given by the strike card applied as normal.
>
It's different : in the case of a dodge, you actually reach the resolution of the strike. In the case of a strike : combat ends, you don't.
Similarity: sup Aid from Bats vs Immortal Grapple.
Aid from Bat's press is still available during the press step, even though the Aid from Bats strike isn't resolved.
[LSJ 20070307]
>
> Bam Vink wrote:
> > I'd say you gain the press as soon as you play the card. So if you
> > have maneuvered with it, you've gained your optional press. That you
> > have to forego striking because you have committed to a restricted
> > strike doesn't affect the press already gained. You still have played
> > this card, and have gained the press already. No retroactive changing
> > of that.
>
> Correct.
> If the Aid from Bats is not canceled as it is played, then Beast gets an
> optional press during the press step of that round.
>
It looks safe to follow that line.
A plays Kraken's Kiss. B uses Flamethrower (2R agg damage). Someone plays Rötschreck, and A (or B) plays Telepathic Tracking.
In the new round, A can use Kraken's Kiss to steal 2 blood.
What about Coma ?
> [dem] Strike: opposing vampire goes into torpor.
> [DEM] As above, and that vampire does not untap as normal during his or her controller's next untap phase.
>
A plays sup Coma
B plays Meld with the land
A plays telepathic tracking
- does B untap as normal during his next untap phase ?
- if B does not untap, is A playing TT really necessary for the "no untap" effect to kick in ?
> FrançoisV wrote:
> What about Coma ?
>
> > [dem] Strike: opposing vampire goes into torpor.
> > [DEM] As above, and that vampire does not untap as normal during his or her controller's next untap phase.
> >
> A plays sup Coma
> B plays Meld with the land
> A plays telepathic tracking
>
> - does B untap as normal during his next untap phase ?
> - if B does not untap, is A playing TT really necessary for the "no untap" effect to kick in ?
>
The question is: is the "do not untap as normal" effect part of the strike?
The press provided by Kraken Kiss or Aid from Bats for instance is not part of the strike.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
The question is also "how do you tell additional effects that are part of the strike(*) apart from those that aren't(**) ?"
(*) like probably the "do not untap" from Coma or the "put this card on the opposing minion" from, say, Putrefaction or Bonecraft
(**) like Aid From Bats press and Kraken Kiss shenanigans
> Timo wrote:
> I think I have found something which is related :
>
> groups.google.com/forum/?hl=fr#!topic/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/J1V7HOb2tQE
>
> It says by LSJ :
>
> A dodge negates all of the effects the strike would have on the dodging
> minion. It doesn't negate a press (e.g., dodging a superior Thrown Sewer Lid
> won't negate the press).
>
> So I guess that as long as the strike card is not cancelled and the other effect is not related to the strike, a S:CE followed by a TT will see the other effects given by the strike card applied as normal.
>
That's be my best guess, too. The other effects of KK aren't "strike effects", and I don't see any reason why combat ends (or dodge) would negate them -- so they should continue fine after SC:E + TT.
> FrançoisV wrote:
> What about Coma ?
>
> > [dem] Strike: opposing vampire goes into torpor.
> > [DEM] As above, and that vampire does not untap as normal during his or her controller's next untap phase.
> >
> A plays sup Coma
> B plays Meld with the land
> A plays telepathic tracking
>
> - does B untap as normal during his next untap phase ?
> - if B does not untap, is A playing TT really necessary for the "no untap" effect to kick in ?
>
Coma is not applied to the opposing vampire (S:CE beats the strike and hence beats the "and that vampire" clause causing it to not occur).
Telepathic Tracking does nothing more than continue a combat that should have ended. If you want to put it another way, functionally Telepathic Tracking says "If the Press Step resulted in 'No more rounds', then start a new round." So the current combat does not end.
Psyche! however is functionally closer to "If the combat is about to end completely, then begin a new one immediately." So the old combat ends and a new one starts immediately at the end of the current one and without being able to be avoided.
Effects that can be 'avoided' are those logically attached to the strike and target the opposing minion.
"Strike: X and [do something to the opposing minion]" then you avoid all of it.
"Strike: X. The other minion has this happen." then you still avoid all of it.
"Strike: X and untap this minion" then you avoid the strike, but not the untap because it wasn't aimed at you.
"Strike: X, with an optional Y" then you avoid the strike, but the optional Y (press, reduce a cost, prevent damage, etc) is not aimed at the opposing minion and will still happen.
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418