Catatonic Fear question

So, can you play Target Vitals with Catatonic Fear? Also, can the damage inflicted by Catatonic Fear be Prevented with Fortitude?

yes you can play target vitals with catatonic fear and you will do 1 damage + 2 from TV. there are very few cards that can prevent this damage. it depends on wether or not the card can be played after combat ends.

Caliban, 1) Yes. You can Target Vitals with Catatonic Fear. 2) You can avoid it with a S:Dodge (since Dodge avoids all negatives from the opposing strike, including special effects such as 'put this card on' and the like). Otherwise, the minion must have a way to prevent damage that is not an 'in combat' prevention. Those would need to say something like "Prevent 1 damage each turn" and not "Prevent 1 damage each round"; rounds are only inside combat so can't be used. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

I'm confused. If you can't prevent the damage with Fortitude cards because damage prevention is only possible during combat, how can a dodge avoid damage that occurs outside of combat? I wasn't aware that Combat Ends could be Dodged. I thought that playing a S:Combat Ends terminates combat immediately and playing a dodge after combat ends is just card cycling because the combat is already considered "over"?

> CalibanX wrote: > I thought that playing a S:Combat Ends terminates combat immediately and playing a dodge after combat ends is just card cycling because the combat is already considered "over"? > Strike: Combat Ends is explained in the Rulebook, section 6.4.5. Strike Effects, as follows: Combat Ends. This effect ends combat immediately. This type of strike is always the first to resolve, even before a strike done with first strike, and it ends combat before other strikes or other strike resolution effects are resolved. Combat ends is effective at any range. Combat ends is not affected by a dodge, since dodge only cancels effects that are directed at the dodging minion. But to be precise: It ends combat immediaately once we reach strike resolution phase. The opposing vampire can still select a strike, and possibly affect the combat-ending minion with the chosen strike (announcing some strike with aggravated damage, followed by Rötschreck). A Dodge is not played "after combat ends" - it is played before combat ends, in the Choose Strike phase. The combat is not over, we are still right in the middle of it. Now, as for Dodge vs. Catatonic Fear, I also am not sure: According to the rulebook, Strike: Combat Ends "ends combat before other strikes or other strike resolution effects are resolved". This seems to imply that the Dodge does never resolve at all. If so, it would not be able to protect against the damage done by Catatonic Fear.... "It was a perfect plan - until it had contact with reality" --- Hardy Range Playgroup Tradition Compliance Manager

You dodge the damage and effects of a strike. Morphean blow and cat fear are damage dealing sce. Combat still ends, but you dodged a damage dealimg strike as well, thus no damage. (If you dodge Wither, you dont get the card, etc) Cat fear and target vitals is nasty, but dodgeable. The after combat ends part closes any fortitude or" prevent x combat damage" stuff. But the strike was in combat, so can be dodged. Its one of the few nice things about BS sce crap.

The way I'm interpreting CF, isn't that it's a "damage dealing strike with combat ends", but rather, that it's a combat ends strike with environmental damage that triggers when combat is over. ? It's more like how Drawing out the beast works: During the press step you take 1 damage. You can't Dodge that, so it seems odd to me that you would be able to dodge damage occurring after combat is resolved.

Catatonic Fear [Combat] Combat Presence [1 Blood] Strike: combat ends. As above, and inflict 1 damage to the opposing minion once combat ends if the range is close. Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one. -Friedrich Nietzsche brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/

> CalibanX wrote: > The way I'm interpreting CF, isn't that it's a "damage dealing strike with combat ends", but rather, that it's a combat ends strike with environmental damage that triggers when combat is over. ? > Its damage, and its on a card after the "strike:" part. So....... There is most likely a better explaination, with LSJ citation even. But, its one of two examples in the current game where a strike ends combat THEN opponent takes damage. So, easy eay to see it is the strike card does two things, tells you when the secind happens, and rules say dodge dodges. Envirnmental isnt a keyword in rules (should be, but before james hits me with a digital brick to the head, thats another conversation and i dont care that much) but is a term used for crows, blood of acid, and weather control style timings(b4 range, during strike res, after strike res, specifically) so timing is kinda still in combat (red card window) at that point, not after or before like burn a blood to block effects or cf stuff, so skin of night et al are playable in combat. Envirnmental is in combat though. Out of combat ie horseshoes is non combat. Just like talbotz xhainsaw hitting your minion, redcards wont matter. Dodging a strike, like flash grenade(maybe, no time to check) wjere a carx is placed on a minion after combat, is similar ish. Edit: riposte and cf are the only examples i know of with damage done after ce. Oblouette has a similar effect, of burning blood or life after combat. Effects like these can be dodged, as can things like inf bond with the mountain(i think thats the onexwhere you both untap for vis) or meld with the land at vic. In those examples, you dodge an effect, albeit one you may have wanted(unless you are anima gathering someone inportant and about got metagamed, i suppose) but you still dodge the beneficial untapping effect so it doesnt hit/effect you. Flash grenade is the same way, all those effects are dodgeable. If you dodge wither, just like if you dodge morphean blow, the strike doesnt hit you and the card doesnt gi on you. Sorry for thinking morphaen blow was something else earlier. End of edit.

Thanks for all the input. I think I got it now.

Dodge strikes don't resolve. They are effective from the moment they're played. When the Catatonic Fear resolves, it ends combat then inflicts 1 damage. The dodge card played during combat will protect you from that damage. groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/WUWh7AdooDU/8y8v9PpKmC8J Since the damage is inflicted after combat has ended, you can't play a combat card to prevent it. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> CalibanX wrote: > The way I'm interpreting CF, isn't that it's a "damage dealing strike with combat ends", but rather, that it's a combat ends strike with environmental damage that triggers when combat is over. ? > It's not environmental. Damage from strikes comes from the striking minion. Thus Memories of Mortality (now banned, of course) reduces the damage done from a Catatonic Fear to an ally. [LSJ 19990723] > > LSJ wrote: > > A vampire with Memories of Mortality engages in combat with an ally. > > For the vampires strike, he plays a superior catatonic fear. > > > > Does the ally take damage? > > He takes zero damage. Memories of Mortality reduces damage done by the > vampire to allies to zero. Damage from a strike (even an odd one like > Catatonic Fear) is "done by" the striking minion [RTR 30-JUN-1997], so > would be reduced by Memories. > Any damage this vampire inflicts on allies is reduced to 0. Similarly, Petra using a Catatonic Fear like strike would deal aggravated damage to a Baali: Damage Petra inflicts on Baali is aggravated.

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > Envirnmental isnt a keyword in rules (should be, but before james hits me with a digital brick to the head, thats another conversation and i dont care that much) but is a term used for crows, blood of acid, and weather control style timings(b4 range, during strike res, after strike res, specifically) so timing is kinda still in combat (red card window) at that point, not after or before like burn a blood to block effects or cf stuff, so skin of night et al are playable in combat. Envirnmental is in combat though. > Incorrect. Environmental is solely to do with the source of the damage. If the damage is not dealt by a minion, it's environmental. The timing is not relevant. Mercy for Seth's damage during the untap phase is outside combat. It is not damage from a minion, however, thus environmental.. Burning a Path (e.g. Path of Evil Revelations) deals damage to the relevant minion outside combat. Similarly, not from a minion. The damage taken by a minion from the in-play effect of superior Putrefaction can happen in or out of combat, but is not dealt by a minion.

So what would happen if 2 vamps with 1 blood each get into combat? One vamp plays Catatonic Fear, the other plays Form of Mist. What happens?

> CalibanX wrote: > So what would happen if 2 vamps with 1 blood each get into combat? One vamp plays Catatonic Fear, the other plays Form of Mist. What happens? > Assuming the blocker plays cf, the acting minion form of mist, you know.... Combat ends. Cf damage is going to happen, so the action minion would be smart not to burn the blood to continue the action. Smarter still wouldve been dodge with pro fom, but i assume PRO fom is announced before cf. Acting minion has the option to enter torpor if he choses, though.

I accept the answers I've been give here. Dodges avoid damage from Catatonic Fear. That's all I need to know when playing the card. I appreciate everyone that took the time to try to explain to me why this is. But I'm still struggling conceptually, how a combat card can affect a damage dealing affect that occurs outside of combat. I don't understand why, if a Dodge can be played during combat to avoid taking damage outside of combat, why can't fortitude cards prevent it? The answer I'm told is because you can't play combat cards outside of combat yet this is precisely what the Dodge is doing: Avoiding damage inflicted outside of combat. The Catatonic Damage that occurs after combat is dependent upon the success of the combat ends when played during the Choose Strike phase of combat. Dodges don't counter Combat Ends. The Combat ends is still successful. So, the additional affect can then occur, which, in this case, is inflicting one damage after combat ends. This damage dealing affect (like other secondary affects that can come with combat ends) is NOT a combat affect. It doesn't exist during combat, it only exists as an effect after combat (like Majesty's untapping effect).

Look at it as a problem of no fortitude ever being worded "prevent x damage later this turn" its later in the round or the combat. Cf is a strike, as is dodge. They both have effects, ones is specifically to negate the others effects on the minion dodging. Its wierd, but alot of vtes is. James, is horseshoes envirnmental, or direct, simce its non striking but says "inflict"? Petra horseshoes do agg? Thinking no, but you get the idea.but per text, id say yes.

> CalibanX wrote: > I accept the answers I've been give here. Dodges avoid damage from Catatonic Fear. That's all I need to know when playing the card. I appreciate everyone that took the time to try to explain to me why this is. > > But I'm still struggling conceptually, how a combat card can affect a damage dealing affect that occurs outside of combat. I don't understand why, if a Dodge can be played during combat to avoid taking damage outside of combat, why can't fortitude cards prevent it? The answer I'm told is because you can't play combat cards outside of combat yet this is precisely what the Dodge is doing: Avoiding damage inflicted outside of combat. > The key is the moment you play the card. You can play Strike: dodge during combat, and it will protect you from the effects from the strike, whether they happen right away, or later (eg. after combat, or even three turns later, hypothetically). It's the same with Target Vitals + Catatonic Fear: TV modifies the damage from CF, even if it's dealt way later (after combat). But you were able to play TV during combat, so it's fine. Now, you can't prevent damage before it's inflicted. Since the damage is dealt after combat, you would have to prevent it at that moment. Unfortunately, you can't play combat cards at that time, so you're screwed. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > James, is horseshoes envirnmental, or direct, simce its non striking but says "inflict"? > > Petra horseshoes do agg? Thinking no, but you get the idea.but per text, id say yes. > > Name: Horseshoes > Cardtype: Action > Discipline: Potence > [pot] Inflict 1 unpreventable damage on a ready minion. > [POT] Inflict 2 unpreventable damage on a ready minion. > The minion that plays it inflicts the damage. So Petra would inflict aggravated damage on a Baali with it. > Name: Petra > Cardtype: Vampire > Clan: Nosferatu > Group: 4 > Capacity: 5 > Discipline: aus ANI OBF > Camarilla: Damage Petra inflicts on Baali is aggravated. A vampire burns an additional blood whenever he or she uses a press to continue combat with Petra. > On the other hand, Basilia wouldn't deal aggravated damage (Horseshoes doesn't inflict "hand damage") > Name: Basilia > Cardtype: Vampire > Clan: Gangrel > Group: 1 > Capacity: 10 > Discipline: obf pot ANI FOR PRO > Camarilla primogen: Damage from Basilia's hand strikes is aggravated. > Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > James, is horseshoes envirnmental, or direct, simce its non striking but says "inflict"? > "Inflict" has been ruled to mean the damage comes from the minion. Outside the Hourglass is probably the most relevant card here. Also, Pulled Fangs has - at several points in the past - just said "inflict 1 (aggravated - removed later} damage", though its card text is now clearer. e.g. [LSJ 20100413]

> CalibanX wrote: > Dodges don't counter Combat Ends. > Uh, yes they do. > VTES wrote: > 6.4.5. Strike Effects > Dodge. A dodge strike deals no damage, but it protects the dodging minion and his possessions (cards on him) from the effects of the opposing strike. Retainers are not protected, however. A dodge is effective at any range. A dodge protects even from the effects of a strike done with first strike. (A dodge is a strike, even though it is solely defensive. It represents the activity of the minion during that pair of strikes.) > "protects... from the effects of the opposing strike." is pretty self-explanatory. Finnish Politics!

Strike: Combat Ends is explained in the Rulebook, section 6.4.5. Strike Effects, as follows: Combat Ends. This effect ends combat immediately. This type of strike is always the first to resolve, even before a strike done with first strike, and it ends combat before other strikes or other strike resolution effects are resolved. Combat ends is effective at any range. Combat ends is not affected by a dodge, since dodge only cancels effects that are directed at the dodging minion.

You cant avoid combat ending by dodging, but, as stated by the rules, it negates effects of a strike as applicable to the dodger.

> CalibanX wrote: > Combat ends is not affected by a dodge, since dodge only cancels effects that are directed at the dodging minion. > You managed to highlight just the relevant part on how Dogdge vs. Combat End works! Yet, apparently it isn't clear (to you) how the text reads, but like Reverend just said, even though Dodge doesn't cancel the actual Combat Ends (= the combat will end), but any effects the Combat End would have on the Dodger (or her possessions such as Retainers or* Equipments etc) are nullified by Dodge. Perhaps and example would clarify: PLAYER A: My strike is Combat End which also causes 1 Damage to opposing minion. PLAYER B: Well, since I have 0 blood I'd go to toropr. So I rather play a Dodge and avoid the damage you deal. Unfortunately the Dodge I played has no effect on the combat ending part of your strike so combat will still end because of your strike. NOTE: It doesn't matter if you'd add "after the combat", "3 rounds from now", "once next player is ousted" or anything to the Player A's sentence(/strike) -the Dodge card Player B played will still protect his minion (and it's possessions) from all the effects of the Player A's strike. Sometimes the rules are a bitch to grasp so I really hope this helps! EDIT: * My case point being the part of my answer regarding retainers since according to the same part of the rules " Retainers are not protected, however." Pays to read the full relevant text, even if you are answering in a hurry Finnish Politics!

The "Strike: Dodge vs Strike: Combat Ends" situation can potentially be cleared with further examples. For all of the cards below, a Strike: Dodge will not stop the combat from ending. However, it will stop the texts that follow. "Strike: Combat ends and XYZ" becomes effectively "Strike: Combat ends and XYZ" > > Unholy Penance > Type: Combat > Requires: Presence > Cost: 1 blood > Strike: combat ends. > As above, and put this card on the opposing minion (ranged). The striking vampire gets +1 bleed against this minion's controller. This minion may burn this card as a +1 stealth action. A minion can have only one Unholy Penance. > If you strike dodge, this strike at becomes "Strike: Combat Ends." The rest of the text is rendered useless (mostly because most of it requires the card to be in play, which it won't be from the S:D. > Loving Agony > Type: Combat > Requires: Valeren/Animalism > Cost: 1 blood > Only usable at close range. > [ani] Strike: hand strike at +1 damage. > [val] Strike: combat ends and the opposing minion takes 1 damage. > [VAL] As [val] above, and this vampire may burn 1 blood to untap before combat ends. > At [val] this becomes Strike: Combat ends if a S:D is played. At [VAL] it is the same as [val] but the minion playing the strike can untap, if the non-Valeren minion uses a S:D. > Morphean Blow > Type: Combat > Requires: Valeren/Celerity > Cost: 1 blood > Only usable at close range. > [cel] Strike: combat ends. > [val] Strike: combat ends and put this card on the opposing minion. This minion cannot take actions or block. Burn this card at the end of the turn. > [VAL] As [val] above, and if this vampire was blocked while performing an action other than bleeding, the action continues as if unblocked. > At [val] This becomes "Strike: Combat Ends" and at [VAL] it becomes "Strike: Combat Ends, and if this vampire was blocked while performing an action other than bleeding, the action continues as if unblocked." > > Oubliette > Type: Combat > Requires: Obtenebration > Cost: 1 blood > [obt] Strike: combat ends. > [OBT] As above, and the opposing minion burns 1 blood or life after combat (even at long range). > At [OBT] this card becomes "Strike: Combat Ends" if the opposing minion plays a S:D. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

Dodge doesnt protect retainers, according to the dodge part of the rules. Can someone explain WHY? I mean, we have our retainers only harmable with agg, and theres the fact that any run of the mill ranged strike can be pointed at a retainer (why the hell dont we shoot retainers? I normally care more about torping the vamp, but if the vamp is at 3 blood, and has a bleed retainer or crows, its practical to use blur and off the retainer and taste, sinceif you taste its the same gain, less the one from blur youd not spend if you used pursuit, but you get the idea). Also, targrt retainer exists for close range, but its the second worst aim card there is (vitals, head, hand, retainer, leg, in descending order of good). But, why is it that "a minions actions to avoid a strike" can be extended to protext belongings (when it could just say equipment since it then says retainers arent covered, like a bad insurance policys fine print) so, Eugene TOTALLY has time to protect both his helicopter & his gran madre de dios & his catacombs & his chainsaw & his collection of shotguns and assualt rifles (and if they ever get printed his leather suitcase, his bowling ball, and his lucky lucky autographed glow in the dark snorkel) buthe doesnt have the timd to push his resplendit protector out ot the way of gunfire? Just feels impracical from a fluff standpoint and less than fair from balamce mechanics standpoint. I also hate how first strike matters so little, but this is a beef that never made sense.

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > Dodge doesnt protect retainers, according to the dodge part of the rules. Can someone explain WHY? > You point your gun at me. You fire. I step to the left. The bullet misses me. You point your gun at that dude over there. You fire. I step to the left. That doesn't affect anything, since the bullet wasn't going at me in the first place. You Strike: Destroy Weapon at my gun. I step to the left. Because I am holding my gun, it moves with me. Therefore, your punch misses my gun because my gun and I are not stood in the way of your fist.

But ot says the actions taken to avoid the strike. Its not just stepping to the left, but ducking and moving, apparently helicopters, buildings, and basements out of harms way. I get loquipments arent euipments in play, but they are still a possesion. Just feels weird..

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > But ot says the actions taken to avoid the strike. Its not just stepping to the left, but ducking and moving, apparently helicopters, buildings, and basements out of harms way. I get loquipments arent euipments in play, but they are still a possesion. Just feels weird.. > Helicopters, learjets and loquipment were added to the game long after the rules were formulated. Of the 25 pieces of equipment in the Jyhad set, almost all of them are things you could easily be wearing or carrying, such as Flak Jackets, Stakes and Grenades. In 1994, a laptop computer would probably have been quite a bit more unwieldy than the svelte items you see today, but could have been in a backpack or something, and hence available for a Canine Horde to chomp on. The two least 'carried on your person' items are the two bikes, but that's not that weird, really. Possibly the RPG Launcher, which is obviously portable but a bit... unwieldy.

Thanks Juggernaut for providing those combat ends scenarios and how they resolve. That was very helpful. My problem with the rules and CF text is semantic. I'm not arguing btw, I'm just expressing where my confusion was coming from: I wasn't aware that the components of the various combat ends cards could be broken up into separate parts by the introduction of a Dodge. Nor is it intuitive that a dodge played during combat should extend to affects occurring outside of combat. When the rules state that "combat ends is not affected by a dodge" I simply assumed that that wording was absolute; and pertained to the secondary affects of combat ends cards too(inflict 1 damage after combat, untap, continue action, etc). I'm told it does not and I'm fine with that.

> CalibanX wrote: > and pertained to the secondary affects of combat ends cards too(inflict 1 damage after combat, untap, continue action, etc). > Most untaps, Dodge has no effect on, because they're untaps of the striking minion. If you Dodge an inferior Meld with the Land - which untaps you, the opposing minion - then you dodge that too, and don't get untapped by it. [vic] Strike: combat ends and untap the opposing minion (even at long range). But with, say, Earth Meld, the striking minion untaps: [pro] Strike: combat ends. [PRO] As above, and this vampire untaps before combat ends.

Caliban: The 'secret' is the "and" and to which minion the stuff after "and" applies. In the examples I gave you, they were all "and do something to the other guy". Psyche @ [CEL] does a similar thing to cards like Form of Mist @[PRO], Morphean Blow @[VAL], Mirror Image @[CHI] and Blissful Agony @[obe] and [OBE]. I'd also be thinking that S:D may truncate Blissful Agony, but I'm not sure. The effect isn't quite 'the other minion' but may be close enough that it is circumvented by S:D. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > I'd also be thinking that S:D may truncate Blissful Agony, but I'm not sure. The effect isn't quite 'the other minion' but may be close enough that it is circumvented by S:D. > Dodge protects you from the "enter combat" effect of Blissful Agony. [FZD 20130924] > > Pascal wrote: > >Question - IMHO the second part of the BA effect kicks > >in even if the opposing vampire plays S:CE or dodge. I am wrong? > > Dodge: The new combat doesn't happen. Dodge protects your minion from the opposing minion's strike. >

What happen with CF damage if any efect make damage in combat aggravated (example Dawn Operation),does CF damage normal or aggravated? Dawn Operation Action Modifier Fortitude [for] If this action is blocked, all damage inflicted to vampires in the resulting combat is aggravated. Any vampire attempting to block may now choose not to block. [FOR] As above, but vampires attempting to block cannot back out.

> beslin wrote: > What happen with CF damage if any efect make damage in combat aggravated (example Dawn Operation),does CF damage normal or aggravated? > Damage that's dealt outside combat (such as Catatonic Fear) isn't affected by Dawn Operation, because Dawn Operation only affects damage in the resulting combat. Similarly, you can't play Skin of Rock to prevent the damage, because you need to be inside combat to play combat cards.

Hello, I have an additional question regarding "Catatonic Fear": can you play "Pulled Fang" after "Catatonic Fear" ? "Pulled Fang" says: > > Only usable at close range at the end of a round of combat in which this minion successfully inflicted more damage than the opposing vampire. > and the rules says: > > End of Round: In this step you use the combat cards or other effects that are only usable at the end of a round of combat, after the press step. Note that this step also occurs even if combat ends prematurely. > So, "Catatonic Fear" ends the combat but the "End of round" phase still occurs, allowing to play "Pulled Fang" ? Thanks !

This thread is 3 years old. Please start a new one next time. The short answer is no. The long answer is that combat is over when the damage from Catatonic Fear happens, which is after the window to play Pulled Fangs. Strikes declared: Cat Fear and whatever the other guy plays. Strikes resolve: Combat ends because of Cat Fear. End of round. End of Combat. After combat, Cat Fear damage is applied.