Kindred of the East

For millennia, the Kindred of the West have had only passing contact with the mysterious Kuei-Jin, the bizarre bloodlines that haunt the Oriental night. These enigmatic legacies are revealed at last – and, now that they have entered the Eternal Struggle, will the World of Darkness ever be the same? ** Original Concept by Stewart MacLeod, from White Wolf’s Kindred of the East series. Game Design by Stewart MacLeod & Mike Miller. Artwork and symbols compiled or designed by Mike Miller. ** Hi everyone, This is the first of several posts outlining an 'unofficial' expansion for VTES that explores the Oriental World of Darkness. Mike and I have designed this as a cohesive, playable set, with almost 350 cards in the first release alone. It's been a labour of love for Mike and I, the culmination of several years of design and playtesting across continents and timezones (my first draft of this was pre-Legacies of Blood, and we've worked off and on since then). We would, of course, love to see our work be deemed ‘official’ by VEKN or a future publisher of VTES, but regardless of the game's future we wanted to share this work. The cards aren't perfect, and Mike and I would appreciate feedback on what you see here. We’ve tried to make the cards as balanced as possible (both as strategies against each other in a KOTE-only environment and in the broader KOTE v. VTES environment) but the more input the better. A key design principles was, wherever possible, to keep the vampires of the East functionally identical to ‘Cainites’ (ensuring that existing cards interact with them in a logical and appropriate fashion) whilst also giving them their own feel. To make them entirely the same would defeat the purpose of the exercise; the Kuei-Jin (as they are known) occupy a similar ecological niche to the existing Clans, but are a unique – and uniquely terrifying – foil to the Children of Caine. Also, whereas several Vampire expansions focus on a broad number of clans and a narrower number of Disciplines than what we tried to grapple with here, combining Kindred of the East’s source material with that design methodology proved to a bit of a nightmare. As such, the decision was made to initially narrow the selection of clans and add a broader selection of Disciplines. This creates greater potential variation within each core 'clan', providing each group with a number of aptitudes and related strategies. The cards I’ll be discussing in these first posts will concentrate on four of the five ‘clans’ of the Orient. Later updates will both flesh out these groups and introduce others. Note that all of the artwork and most of the icons have never been seen before in VTES, although fans of Asian cinema, Oriental-themed CCGs or indeed White Wolf’s Year of the Lotus books may recognise some familiar images. We’ve been respectful to the originals, crediting artists where known. All this, of course, is completely not for profit and not designed to impinge on any copyright; please contact me if you would like your image or art removed. So, onto some key terminology; Kuei-Jin: At its purest level, Kuei-Jin is a keyword attached to some vampires. The keyword denotes that the vampire is in fact a Kindred of the East, a creature similar yet fundamentally different than the Cainites of the West. In design terms, it's a 0-cost keyword as it both opens up possibilities and creates some limitations. All Kuei-Jin are Sterile. Blood: Kuei-Jin understand that the blood they drink to sustain their existence is a form of Chi, or life-energy, which is found in all aspects of existence. Enlightened Kuei-Jin gain greater powers of manipulation over this Chi energy, and can use the Chi of themselves and others in increasingly exotic fashions. In game terms, Kuei-Jin use Chi instead of Blood. Chi is replaceable with Blood in every way; the difference in terminology is entirely for stylistic reasons. Effects that would move Blood or Life from a vampire, ally or retainer to a Kuei-Jin convert the moved counters to Chi, much as the ‘steal blood’ effect from ‘Theft of Vitae’ targeting an ally converts the incoming Life to Blood. Kuei-Jin can play cards with a blood cost. Clans: As they are not descended from Caine and the Antediluvians, Kuei-Jin vampires do not have a Clan. Kuei-Jin are considered to be clan-less by any effect that ‘searches’ for a Clan (such as ‘Consanguineous Boon’). Kuei-Jin are not Caitiff however; their ‘clanlessness’ is the same as the Great Beast (created from ‘Call the Great Beast’). Dharma: In the roleplaying game, 'Dharma' is a philosophical path akin to a Path of Enlightenment. In CCG terms, Dharma is a Kuei-Jin-only trait that operates in a similar capacity to ‘Clan’. Dharmas are not Clans and Clans are not Dharmas, however. Dharma is specific to Kuei-Jin in the same manner as Baron is anarch-specific, or ‘mortal’ is an Ally- and Retainer-specific trait. The four Dharmas initially featured in Kindred of the East are as follows: Howl of the Devil-Tiger: Known as Devil-Tigers (and abbreviated to DT in card texts), followers of this path consider themselves to be chosen by Heaven to be vengeful executioners of the wicked. While they embrace their darker natures, Devil-Tigers are not Infernalists and are scornful of those that would sell their souls for temporal power. Way of the Resplendent Crane: The Resplendent Cranes (RC) consider themselves to be the guardians of Kuei-Jin traditions. Viewing other Dharmas as morally weak, the Cranes attempt to maintain control over themselves, society and the Wheel of Ages itself. Resplendent Cranes tend to be haughty and reserved magistrates, and when scripture fails they possess the martial skills to back up their beliefs. Song of the Shadow: More commonly called Shadow Songs (SS), these Kuei-Jin devote themselves to the mysteries of Yin energy. Courtiers and assassins alike make their way into the ranks of this Dharma. Shadow Songs are more likely to be knowledgeable advisors to the ruling elite rather than the power on the throne itself. Dance of the Thrashing Dragon: Thrashing Dragons (TD) are often seen as the polar opposite to Shadow Songs, as they revere the life-energy of Yang. Thrashing Dragons can be both humane and animalistic, and reflect the best and worst of both vampirism and humanity. They tend to have dynamic and spontaneous natures. For my next trick, I'll try and add an attachment onto this and talk through some basics. If that doesn't work, I'll keep on going with the explanations... Attachment crypt_sample.jpg not found cheers, Disco Stu Prince of Melbourne, Australia

... cool, that seemed to work! So, what you see above are two Thrashing Dragons. As you can see, the Dharma icon takes the place of the Clan icon. The basic layout is otherwise pretty much the same; we have capacity, group, expansion symbol etc. Keeping away from the left-hand bar for the time being, some things you will note; * Sect: the default Sect for many Kuei-Jin is 'Quincunx'. The Quincunx is perhaps best thought of as the Camarilla of the East, in that it's a long-running, broad-based political organisation that spans much of Asia. It's not the only sect, but it is the most important. There are a few titles attached to this sect, but I'll outline those in a later post. * As noted, Kuei-Jin are Sterile. No breed decks here, people (or at least, not what you'd traditionally call a breed deck). This matches with the background of the game; Kuei-Jin aren't Embraced per se, but are resurrected souls brought back into unliving bodies. To maintain their existence, they must feed on Chi (blood). * Say, those Disciplines don't look right, do they? ... A vampire with the Kuei-Jin trait cannot gain or use normal Disciplines. Instead, they are limited to a select group of Kuei-Jin-only Disciplines. These Disciplines may only be gained or used by vampires with the Kuei-Jin trait; other vampires (such as Ian Forestal, a vampire with an Infernal Familiar) may not gain or use these Kuei-Jin-only Disciplines. As a reminder, the majority of cards requiring a Kuei-Jin Discipline indicate that they can only be played by a Kuei-Jin. The list of Kuei-Jin Disciplines featured in the first couple of 'sets' we've designed is as follows: Beast Shintai [besh] Black Wind [blw] Blood Shintai [blsh] Bone Shintai [bosh] Cultivation [cul] Demon Shintai [dsh] Dragon Tears [drt] Equilibrium [equ] Feng Shui [feng] Flesh Shintai [flsh] Ghost-Flame Shintai [gfsh] Internalize [int] Iron Mountain [iron] Jade Shintai [jas] Kiai [kiai] Mibasham [mib] Obligation [obl] Tapestry [tap] Yang Prana [yap] Yin Prana [yip] In VTES, as in Vampire: the Masquerade, a member of a certain clan has a predisposition toward (typically) three particular Disciplines. This tendency was formalised in Vampire: the Masquerade as ‘Clan Disciplines’. Whilst VTES does not have any mechanical effect to separate Clan- and non-Clan Disciplines, the concept of Clan Disciplines allows streamlining of deck construction; when making a Toreador deck, you are most likely to use the Disciplines of Auspex, Celerity and Presence, for example. In the Kindred of the East roleplaying game, a Kuei-Jin’s Dharma does not provide any predisposition toward a set of Disciplines. While particular Dharmas may encourage or discourage the use of a given Discipline, this is a social phenomenon rather than any inherent bias. To bridge this gap (and, more particularly, to assist deckbuilding), the notion of ’Dharma’ Disciplines was introduced. Devil-Tigers tend to possess Black Wind, Demon Shintai, Dragon Tears and Ghost-Flame Shintai. Resplendent Cranes tend to possess Blood Shintai, Demon Shintai, Internalize, and Obligation. Shadow Songs tend to possess Bone Shintai, Cultivation, Mibasham and Yin Prana. Thrashing Dragons tend to possess Flesh Shintai, Iron Mountain, Tapestry and Yang Prana. This is a slight deviation from the source material, but has been made to aid deck construction and balance Dharma-based strategies. All choices have been made after careful consultation of every Kindred of the East roleplaying sourcebook, and are thus as thematic as possible. By supplying a broader range of ‘core’ Disciplines than normal for each Kuei-Jin Dharma, Dharma-themed deck design will provide a number of options to players. This is similar to how, say, Samedi decks can exclude Necromancy and focus on Thanatosis, Obfuscate and Fortitude, or how Dominate can be an easy addition to Group 1 Toreador. In addition, several Disciplines have been designed to not be inherent to any given Dharma. Beast Shintai, Feng Shui and Kiai all feature in this first set of cards, but are intentionally given a smaller number of cards to emphasise their ‘support’ function. And, to assist in bridging the gap for later releases, icons for Equilibrium and Jade Shintai have been included on a handful of Kuei-Jin in this set, even though cards for these Disciplines do not appear in this first release. Purists may notice an absence here; Chi’u Muh, one of the more awkwardly named Disciplines in the original roleplaying game, was renamed ‘Dragon Tears’ in this set for ease of play. For the record, Okui Megumi has basic Flesh Shintai and basic Yang Prana [flsh yap]. Chan Yu-wei has superior Beast Shintai and Iron Mountain, and basic Flesh Shintai and Tapestry [BESH IRON flsh tap]. More later... cheers Disco Stu

Actually, one more things before I knock off for the night! Here's a sample of six commons, which between them give a good cross-section of some KJ-Discpline effects. Attachment disc_sample.jpg not found Battle Vigor is Yang Prana [yap]. Blood Atemi is Blood Shintai [blsh]. Blood Yoga is Internalize [int]. Bone Obedience is Bone Shintai [bosh]. Chi Rift is Tapestry [tap]. Note than Yin and Yang keywords will be explained in a later post, but that they're essentially 'passive' keywords with no distinct rule attached (think 'gun' or 'ammo', rather than 'red list' or 'blood cursed'). cheers once again, and thanks for reading. Disco Stu

Very early brief thoughts: Overall, well forumulated, and I don't see anything that upsets me too much. I'd remind you both that the Kuei-Jin never exactly fit neatly into the oWoD, especially such little gems (depending on how you read/twisted it) as a 'special hell only for asian people' which didn't do it any favours. I quite liked Kindred of the East personally, it's just a reminder that it did suffer as a title in some ways, and not everyone was wholly positive towards it. Rule commentary follows, however! (EDIT: I'm going to stress this before someone reflexively makes a silly rebuttal. I do not hold this opinion, but I have heard it with regards to KotE on more than one occasion. If you cannot grasp this concept, you should probably go back to FOX news.) 1. 'Nested' Keyword by having Kuei-Jin incorporate Sterile. Please don't. Just lose a little text space, and use 'Sterile' as well, as it already exists. I know it sounds pedantic, but it's the sort of thing that eventually bites you in the rear. (I've since become confused because your example cards DO have this.) 2. Sect. Good to have Sect defined from the start, and using the Courts makes sense. I presume you've already taken it into account, but note a Kuei-Jin under your current proposal could Go Anarch for whatever reason. 3. Dharma / Clan - Drawing a parallel between the two makes a lot of sense. Making it a seperate mechanic, however, doesn't. Why not just use the Dharma as Clans and be done with it? This synergises a lot of effects, and stops 'Imbued syndrome' where certain cards can't/don't work as a consequence. 4. Disciplines. First, too many. Start smaller, keep it simpler. You can always add them in additional releases. Secondly, some of them (Flesh Shintai, for example) should just be normal Vampiric disciplines, in that example VIC. This integrates them with the existing sets, (Imbued Syndrome again) lets cards you gain in one 'side' be useful in the rest of your collection, etc. Canon reasons aside (Flesh Shintai isn't VIC or vice versa, and learning one does not help with the other at all) it makes a lot more sense for the CCG. If you want to have Flesh Shintai specific cards under that example, just have a VIC card that requires a Kuei-Jin. (As an aside, it also kind of makes sense that if anyone would manage somehow to master the Disciplines of the Kuei-Jin, it'd be either someone with demonic tutelage (Infernal Familiar / Pact) or one of the Tremere...) I'm trying to not be too negative, because I'd love to see the Kuei-Jin in V:TES, even as fanservice. However, I think they'd benefit from being more like Cainites, not less, and bringing them closer would help more than it would hurt. Here we go again.... Dave Knowles (Advanced) Sabbat Bishop of Manchester

No particular comments here; I don't know anything about the source material (my RPG group never touched the Kindred of the East), and I've never played with the Imbued. Just wanted to say I'm thrilled that someone's working this seriously on such a large expansion. Thank you!

> Disco_Stu wrote: > Hi everyone, > > This is the first of several posts outlining an 'unofficial' expansion for VTES that explores the Oriental World of Darkness. > While I would like the opportunity to discuss this interesting idea, I wonder if it's going to get so many replies and posts that it's going to overwhelm the 'Generic V:TES Discussion' category. ADMINS: How about moving this post to a new category under 'V:TES Discussion', titled "Expansion Sets & Ideas"? There was talk at Origina about the VEKN possibly doing printable online cards in the future, so the category will be needed and used anyway, right? Let's get it started with this post. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

> KevinM wrote: > > > Disco_Stu wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > > > [...] > > > > ADMINS: How about moving this post to a new category under 'V:TES Discussion', titled "Expansion Sets & Ideas"? There was talk at Origina about the VEKN possibly doing printable online cards in the future, so the category will be needed and used anyway, right? Let's get it started with this post. > > > The new category has been created. > V:EKN Website Coordinator

First, thanks to all who’ve responded! It was great to see so many views and comments in such a short space of time. Shockwave, thanks for your four points in particular. I’ll try and answer them below, with apologies in advance for my longwindedness (which, I hope, shows that I've thought long and hard about my responses, and may demonstrate the hand-wringing that went into much of the pre-design work here). Before I go into all that, though, I agree that Kindred of the East was met with a mixed response upon its release. Beyond the notions of the uniquely Asian Underworld that you raised, it also faced the challenge - I think - of cramming the best bits of too many game systems, too much mythology - into a single concept. Vampire: the Masquerade took several vampire 'models' and added a unifying layer - clans, and the story of Cain(e) - that both explained and supported the differences between the various takes of vampireness. Looking back, the simplicity of that design looks bafflingly easy, but MRH and crew should be patting themselves on their collective backs for that. White Wolf added a lot to it later on, naturally, but even the more exotic bloodlines and Disciplines, Gehenna cults, Tal'mahe'Ra etc that spiral away from that key notion still retain the strength of that original concept. Kindred of the East, however, was boldly (bravely? foolishly?) grappling with more from the outset, trying to synergise wildly disparate cultural traditions and tried to build its own unifying concept out of this patchwork mythology - many of which weren't familiar to the typical Western reader. Layer on top of that a more 'mature' World of Darkness (populated by more supernatural species) and the end result was a mad polyglot creation that had fantastic ideas sitting cheek-by-jowl with the sadly lacklustre. I think KOTE, at its best, beats V:tM, but you need to sift the wheat from the chaff. Anyhow, onto those points of yours 1. Nested keywords: as you can see, the Kuei-Jin crypt cards have the Sterile keyword added to their text-box. Your reasoning is spot-on; it may decrease the available space, but it’s worth it for transparency and ease of play. 2. Sect and anarch-ness: correct, under the current texts there is nothing to stop Kuei-Jin from becoming anarch (provided they don’t have a title, naturally). There is some precedent for this in the source material, as the Courts of the East are beset by a revolutionary sub-sect who seek to bring down the tyranny of the elders. A later ‘expansion’ for KOTE was going to introduce these so-called Bamboo Children, giving Kuei-Jin anarchs their own sub-set of effects to play with (seeing as they don’t have access to the three-way disciplines, as currently written). 3. Dharma versus Clan: Dharma does have some card-effects (still to come!) that differentiate it slightly from Clan, so it might be useful to keep them distinct. But I do think your suggestion is entirely reasonable and I’m not averse to making the change. The current seperation may be a legacy of earlier design, where Kuei-Jin were their own ‘minion type’, distinct from Vampire. I must say, though, I was also cautious of the inevitable question ‘if I Clan Impersonate Vampire-X to a Devil-Tiger, can I now use Kuei-Jin cards?’ (the answer being no, the keyword doesn’t come automatically, but I still wanted to avoid the question in the first place!)[*] 4. Disciplines. To be completely honest here, I’ve got to agree that, yes, there are probably too many Disciplines in the set as written. It was a nearly-inescapable part of the design, and one which Mike and I spent a lot of time grappling with. There are a range of options available; a. convert all Kuei-Jin Disciplines into Cainite analogs (i.e., Flesh Shintai cards become ‘Kuei-Jin only’ Vicissitude effects, to use your example). This works quite well for a few Kuei-Jin Disciplines, but the exoticism of the Kindred of the East suffers somewhat, and the comparisons aren’t always particularly clear. Kiai becomes Melpominee, Tapestry becomes Thaumaturgy, Beast Shintai could become Animalism or Spiritus, Feng Shui becomes Auspex or Thaumaturgy... but Blood Shintai is as Vicissitude-y as Flesh Shintai, and combining them together could weaken both. b. convert _some_ Kuei-Jin Disciplines into existing Disciplines, and make new ones where appropriate. A fence-sitting approach makes slightly more sense in some ways, as it allows us to minimise the introduction of new Disciplines without sacrificing too much of the theme or mood. For the sake of argument, if we said that Flesh Shintai and Blood Shintai were too distinct from one another to combine them into Vicissitude, we could still convert a Thrashing Dragon’s clan disciplines to Celerity [Yang Prana] + Fortitude [Iron Mountain] + Thaumaturgy [Tapestry] + Flesh Shintai – that is, only the most exotic Disciplines feature as their own entities. This approach certainly has some merit to it, but I felt a ‘half-new’ approach could be as confusing as something that was all new. Something to consider, though. c. Ignore swathes of the source material. A tempting option, admittedly, and one which there is precedent for. As some readers may be aware, several Serpentis, Quietus and Vicissitude cards in VTES represent effects from Setite-, Assamite- or Tzimisce-centered paths of ‘sorcery’ (that is, Thaumaturgy). 'Starvation of Marena' is no more a Vicissitude effect in the RPG than it is Auspex or Animalism, but there’s little point creating a new Koldunic Sorcery discipline just for it. However, this gets us onto a slippery slope. If we were to ignore the source material, which bits? In the end we felt it better to throw everything into the mix to begin with and then cut it down from there. Once Mike and I found ourselves on the path of accepting a broad range of Disciplines, that then threw up new options; * Create combined Cainite/Kuei-Jin discipline cards: a card might require Fortitude or Iron Mountain, say, so it’s not a wasted slot if you’re looking to build a mixed-crypt deck. The cards in this first release were already pretty wordy, though, so we stayed away from this for the first round of releases. * Create multi-discipline / three-way cards. This doesn’t necessarily solve the ‘Kuei-Jin Disciplines are too different’ concern, but means that fewer card slots need to be spent to achieve a certain strategy. This could also be combined with the above point (perhaps a Blood Shintai/Flesh Shintai/Vicissitude card?). Again, we felt that the first release should probably concentrate on the heart of each Discipline rather than muddying the waters. * Make Kuei-Jin Disciplines easier to gain. Making ‘skill cards’ into trifles, for example, could encourage different deckbuilding archetypes. In the end, we felt this might be better for the rarer Disciplines (such as Kiai), but doing it for all Disciplines could lead to unforseen problems. * Make Kuei-Jin Disciplines easier to use: there are a range of effects that make Kuei-Jin cards cheaper, or temporarily upgrade a minion from inferior to superior levels. We felt this might be a good way of approaching the problem from a different angle, although of course it’s card-intensive in its own way. * Make non-Discipline effects drive deck design: by adding a comparatively high number of Kuei-Jin-only and Dharma-based cards into the mix, a deck could be designed around those rather than Disciplines. Downsides to KJ Disciplines, as written: * As the notes above indicate, I’m acutely aware that there are some weaknesses to having an ‘all-in’ approach to Kuei-Jin Disciplines. Beyond the obvious downside of having fewer ‘Happy Family’ discipline spreads between clans, we also had to grapple with facing the card slots in an expansion. Core sets typically have around ten cards per Discipline, from memory, but with more Disciplines in the mix we had to settle for single figures. It was tempting to increase the emphasis on Disciplines by decreasing the number of non-Discipline cards, but it was difficult to get that balance right between Discipline-centred decks and the Kuei-Jin-only / Dharma-based strategies mentioned above. * Having so many new Disciplines is that players may struggle to find the ‘key’ cards. The classic +1/+2 template (Enhanced Senses, Skin of Rock, Lost in Crowds, Undead Strength) is pretty much absent here, or at least has been diluted by adding ‘toolbox’ effects. Going for 4a or 4b above could limit that a little, but the nature of the source material will always create some difficulties here. cheers, and thanks for reading. Whoever you are, you deserve a beer. Disco Stu Prince of Melbourne, Australia [*] = all good deck concepts begin with Clan Impersonate, after all...

> Disco_Stu wrote: > b. convert _some_ Kuei-Jin Disciplines into existing Disciplines, and make new ones where appropriate. A fence-sitting approach makes slightly more sense in some ways, as it allows us to minimise the introduction of new Disciplines without sacrificing too much of the theme or mood. For the sake of argument, if we said that Flesh Shintai and Blood Shintai were too distinct from one another to combine them into Vicissitude, we could still convert a Thrashing Dragon’s clan disciplines to Celerity [Yang Prana] + Fortitude [Iron Mountain] + Thaumaturgy [Tapestry] + Flesh Shintai – that is, only the most exotic Disciplines feature as their own entities. This approach certainly has some merit to it, but I felt a ‘half-new’ approach could be as confusing as something that was all new. Something to consider, though. > Quick answer, but this is the approach I'd advocate. For example, it worked for Abombwe to integrate the Akunanse into the game, because it had something unique to them, whilst still taking advantage of all the ANI and FOR cards in the game, drastically increasing their playability to any existing player. If they were say, like the Samedi, and each had four 'in Clan' Disciplines, and then their unique one, that'd work fine. Leveraging existing card stock, especially as we can't print new ones right now is a sure-fire way to get your additions accepted than a whole new set of cards. It also makes that Anarch Kuei-Jin much more viable, which surely makes sense if you remember V:tM things like the New Promise Mandarinate. With regards to the Clan/Dharma debate, as long as you keep the Kuei-Jin trait seperate, I think it's all fine. Bear in mind you already have Vidal Jarbeaux potentially doing something as a Kuei-Jin, so there's one concern to think of, and I'm sure Mata Hari would probably find a way to abuse some cards, but are creative uses like this really a bad thing? (I think not, personally) And once again, if Wah-Yun Chen manages to Clan Impersonate a Devil-Tiger as a Brujah Antitribu, is that a bad thing either? How about Qadir ul-Ghani? Aside from that, I can see there's a lot of thought gone into this, and whilst it's way too early for this to be anything more than a fan-expansion, I think it's grounded enough in sense to be worth looking at. Here we go again.... Dave Knowles (Advanced) Sabbat Bishop of Manchester

Amazing work! Good job And yes my only thoughts are you should add few new disciplines and rest would reuse the old ones. There is already a lot to take for a new player and whole new set would be too much. Start smallish and you would get a bigger success since there is already many cards which could be combined with them. klubtitanatlas.hr/ former NC for Croatia

This is a great effort, and is to be encouraged - in the long run this is the kind of thing that's needed to keep the game alive. I would heartily encourage VEKN to work with the authors so that if/when a fan produced set is released, it is accepted for at least some formats of competitive play. For Stu, a few comments and suggestions : Many players didn't really take to Legacies / Ebony Kingdom because there was nothing in it for a player who wasn't interested in bloodlines or the new African clans. In comparison, I think HttB was attractive to players even if they weren't using the bloodlines because of generally useful cards like Wider View, and it also improved some of the bloodlines enough that more players decided to try them out. So, I think it's worth thinking about having some vampires and/or library cards that you could feasibly use in a conventional Cainite deck. Could still be stuff that captures a flavor of the East, of course. There are some cards that are going for stupid prices that should be easy to get - I'm thinking of things like Villein, Eyes of Argus, Freak Drive. It'd be great to get some alternate print-at-home versions that are functionally equivalent. (yes, I sell VtES on the web, and yes, I'd lose some sales if some of these cards were devalued in this way; but I'm more concerned about the game having trouble recruiting more fans because too many of the "must have" cards are too expensive) I'm not a lawyer, but I do know enough copyright law to give some advice; pm me if you want to talk more about it, and you do need some advice there. VtES store : www.prunesquallor.net Card supplies & games : stores.ebay.com/Prunesquallors-Secret-Cache

Cool. Looks good. I guess you need to decide how similar Kue-jin and Vampires are to be. Is this set designed to only be Kue-jin vs Kue-jin games? Or be played in standard VTES environment? Would you possibly create a crypt with some Vampires and some Kue-jin? Nick

Very cool indeed! B) In order to make it work, it should fit as smoothly into VTES as possible. As already mentioned, try to avoid Imbued-syndrome. The best approach would be to use existing disciplines where possible and create a new one for each "clan", where appropriate. I know, that way you'd deviate from the source, but VTES is not the roleplaying game, so it has to be quite simplified to make the cards work. The more the Kindred of the East are treated like standard vampires, the better. Otherwise games might get really weird if a player plays KotE, just like with the Imbued (and no-one likes the Imbued). Perhaps you could come up with a set of rules specifically for the Kue-jin to give them some new flavour, but they would have to be few and very straight-forward. Btw, where did you get the Artwork for your cards from? The crypt cards look definitely awesome! pckvtes.wordpress.com

> prunesquallor wrote: > This is a great effort, and is to be encouraged - in the long run this is the kind of thing that's needed to keep the game alive. I would heartily encourage VEKN to work with the authors so that if/when a fan produced set is released, it is accepted for at least some formats of competitive play. > [/ul] > Hi Prunesquallor and Nick M, Thanks both for your input and kind comments! My answers to your comments overlap a little, so I'll respond to you both at the same time. I agree that Legacies / EK perhaps didn't offer enough to interest a non-Laibon, non-Bloodlines player, whereas sets like Lords of the Night gave us some pretty solid generic cards (Target: Vitals, to pick one at random). I must say, I didn't mind that too much - it meant more room in Legacies/EK for Laibon and Bloodline-specific toys, and i'm a sucker for that sort of thing - but I can certainly see how some people get frustrated or turned off by that. I've tried to avoid that in these cards, although admittedly with mixed success. Many more generic effects were pushed out to Set 2 or 3 as I tried to insert more Kuei-Jin-specific effects into my opening salvo. The distribution channel changes the mix, really; if they're all 100% available and free, people can pick and choose as they see fit. If there was a cost involved (and Mike and I did approach LSJ and Oscar with this, albeit it may have been clear to them at the time that VTES didn't have a future with CCP), a player's reaction would be vastly different. The cards - and by cards, I really mean a structured series of sets, not just the first 350-odd cards - are designed to be playable equally as Kuei-Jin versus Kuei-Jin, or Kuei-Jin versus Cainite, or (to a lesser extent) combined crypts. Mixes of Kuei-Jin and Cainite in the crypt would work much in the same way as an Imbued ‘splash’ works in a standard vampire-centric crypt, but with without as many recursion effects that make the Imbued so card-efficient. While there are cards in the opening releases that affect both Kuei-Jin and Cainite equally, my design was that we'd be at Set 2 or 3 before we'd be able to make truly competitive mixed crypts. I'd also designed themed Cainite starters to introduce the Westerners to the Orient (the first cabs off the rank being a starter each for Lasombra and Giovanni, which would explore their linkages with the Middle Kingdom). Later sets explored the Heretical Kuei-Jin of Sri Lanka and India, and there I'd provide more overlap with clans like Ravnos and Assamite. Another set had a splash of Salubri and Gangrel, as both have historical linkages to the East. In terms of fan-produced sets, even after putting so much effort into KOTE over the years I'd still say that a Group 5 Sabbat set should probably be VEKN's first priority should they want to go down such a path. Filling in that group would create immediate benefit for playgroups and not scare off players who don't want to drift too far from known concepts and strategies. That said, I'd think a KOTE set - or something else, like the Mage variant also featured here on VEKN - would create a real shot in the arm and really enervate playgroups that feel like they want to see something new to clearly show that VTES Phase 3 has begun. The WOTC era was short-lived but set the fundamentals of the game in place. WW/CCP, as Phase 2, gave us two 'safe' expansions before boldly treading new ground with Bloodlines. VEKN is currently in a holding pattern, and rightly so; supporting the game, but not stuffing about with the IP too much so that it remains attractive for future buyers. But if that starts to recede as an option, VEKN should choose to re-define the game as it sees fit - and more power to them for that. cheers Disco Stu

> Amenophobis wrote: > Very cool indeed! B) > > In order to make it work, it should fit as smoothly into VTES as possible. As already mentioned, try to avoid Imbued-syndrome. The best approach would be to use existing disciplines where possible and create a new one for each "clan", where appropriate. > > I know, that way you'd deviate from the source, but VTES is not the roleplaying game, so it has to be quite simplified to make the cards work. The more the Kindred of the East are treated like standard vampires, the better. Otherwise games might get really weird if a player plays KotE, just like with the Imbued (and no-one likes the Imbued). > > Perhaps you could come up with a set of rules specifically for the Kue-jin to give them some new flavour, but they would have to be few and very straight-forward. > > Btw, where did you get the Artwork for your cards from? The crypt cards look definitely awesome! > Hi Amenophobis, Mike Miller is the one to thank for the art. He collated hundreds, if not thousands, of images to use for these cards. Some came from L5R or Shadowfist, some from Flickr or artist websites, some as movie stills, or promotional artwork for computer games - you name it, Mike tracked it down! The background for the Dharmas were all designed by Mike too, and I've got to say that he did a truly amazing job. The Thousand Whispers has got to be my favourite so far, but literally every one I see is better than the last. I've never met or spoken to the man, despite having worked with him for years on this, but he's got a great eye for design and I can't praise his work enough. Mike also designed the Discipline icons, although a minority of them (the Shintai, really) had their own symbols already provided in the sourcebooks. I got stuck with the words while he handled the 'wow' factor Okay, so if I take the frequently suggested approach that perhaps 25% of Kuei-Jin Disciplines should be 'new' and I try to find best-fit options amongst the existing Cainite Disciplines, we're left with the following Discipline spreads... Devil-Tigers: Celerity Protean Valeran + **Ghost-Flame Shintai** Resplendent Cranes: Dominate Protean Quietus + **Internalize** Shadow Songs: Chimerstry Obfuscate Thanatosis + **Cultivation** Thrashing Dragons: Fortitude Thaumaturgy Vicissitude + **Yang Prana** For what it's worth, other 'normalised' Disciplines to be featured in later sets would be; Jade Shintai ( ) Kiai ( ) Feng Shui ( ) Beast Shintai ( ) Tzu Wei ( ) Hellweaving ( ) And the following brand-new Disciplines, over many sets: Inward Way, Equilibrium, Prayer-Eating and Smoke Shintai. For those keeping score, that means of the 'major' (WOTC) Disciplines in VTES, we have no Animalism, Dementation, Necromancy, Obtenebration, Potence, Presence or Serpentis. Reasonably different from what to expect? Under that take on things, one of those two sample vamps I provided earlier now looks as follows; Chan Yu-wei: That's not too shabby, really! But, it does lead to some odd looking elder vampires though... Eight Thunders Sage [DT, 11] [Group 4] [ + (GHOST-FLAME SHINTAI] Quincunx Bodhisattva (i.e., 3 votes). Kuei-Jin. Eight Thunders Sage may burn 1 Chi to cancel a blood hunt. Damage from his hand strikes cannot be prevented by equipment. +1 bleed. +1 strength. Sterile. (Kiai is more martial than Melpominee, so 8TS is going to have a bunch of political options unlocked for what had previously been a combat machine! Who knows, maybe he can use that Melpominee intercept card no-one plays with Rising Majestically [RC, 10] [Group 2] [ + (INTERNALIZE)] Quincunx. Kuei-Jin. If Rising Majestically is titled, she gains an additional vote during referendums. +2 intercept. Sterile. (Rising Majestically only had light intercept disciplines, but replacing Feng Shui with AUS gives her a bunch more options. Perhaps I need to tone down that intercept bonus!) Lun Meng [TW, 8] [3] [ + (EQUILIBRIUM)] Quincunx. Kuei-Jin. While Lun Meng is ready you have +X hand size, where X is the number of locations controlled by your prey. +1 bleed. Sterile. (Jade Shintai finds its closest match in the Gargoyle's clan disciplines, as it is earth- and stone-themed, but of course some of the Slave text will hamper the Discipline's usefulness. Still, it does unlock a bunch of options.) Shout-of-Anger [TD, 7] [Group 3] [ + (YANG PRANA)] Quincunx. Kuei-Jin. Cards that require Vicissitude:vic: cost Shout-of-Anger one less Chi to play. Sterile. (FOR+VIC looks like fun to me... 'nuff said). With all that in mind, feedback is most keenly sought about this redesign! I will continue to put up some images of various cards and effects, not to mention some Kuei-Jin specific rules, but just do some mental 'find and replace' as the Disciplines come up... cheers all, Disco Stu Prince of Melbourne, Australia

Hmm, if Shadow Songs = Chimerstry Obfuscate Thanatosis ... under this proposed redesign it'd seem that Genina finally has friends to play with..!

*Really* nervous concern: Be especially careful about giving traditionally Clan-unique Disciplines to anyone else, especially more than one at a time. I'd be worried about a Dharma with THA/VIC for example, not just because of power levels per-se but also because it devalues the uniqueness of those Disciplines. I'd try & use the more general ones a bit more, although VIC is probably your only option for Flesh/Blood Shintai. This becomes increasingly more important when playing with Bloodline Disciplines such as MEL, VAL or THA. That aside, it seems a lot more sensible, and a non-Gargoyle option with VIS would be really quite exciting. EDIT: As an alternative, if you wanted to exaggerate the 'exotic' nature of the Kuei-Jin, you could ignore the above and pair up things like PRO/VAL, but make the more common, traditional, 'useful' Disciplines, such as OBF, AUS, DOM or FOR extremely rare or non-existent. This would make them very different, but force players to use very odd and new strategies, which would work. DOUBLE EDIT: If you're ever going to hand out DAI, you need to consider Infernal, to represent Akuma. Just a comment. Here we go again.... Dave Knowles (Advanced) Sabbat Bishop of Manchester

I second the opinion that Bloodline disciplines should not be automatic conversion (some of them may still have the discipline though, see Gwyedd). > Disco_Stu wrote: > Shout-of-Anger > [TD, 7] [Group 3] > [ + (YANG PRANA)] > Quincunx. Kuei-Jin. Cards that require Vicissitude:vic: cost Shout-of-Anger one less Chi to play. Sterile. > (FOR+VIC looks like fun to me... 'nuff said). > When I read this, I think Chi should be replaced by blood. It may be less exotic, but since it is strictly the same, it would be more simple... Unless you want them to be restricted by Chanjelin Ward, Tenebrous Form etc. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > When I read this, I think Chi should be replaced by blood. It may be less exotic, but since it is strictly the same, it would be more simple... Unless you want them to be restricted by Chanjelin Ward, Tenebrous Form etc. > This has to be tested, but it might be mandatory to make disciplines work. I guess one of the reasons behind the Conviction system is that the Imbued cannot hunt and play blood gain masters, so they cannot afford to pay cards with their life. If the Kuei-Jin are to play discipline cards, you want Giant's Blood, the Coven and Perfectionnist to work on them.

Loved this set since I first saw it on Lasombra's site all those years ago. Could we see a larger version of the KotE Discipline symbols that you've created. Possibly along side the VtM Discipline that may turn into. Prince of Puyallup

> Shockwave wrote: > *Really* nervous concern: > Be especially careful about giving traditionally Clan-unique Disciplines to anyone else, especially more than one at a time. I'd be worried about a Dharma with THA/VIC for example, not just because of power levels per-se but also because it devalues the uniqueness of those Disciplines. I'd try & use the more general ones a bit more, although VIC is probably your only option for Flesh/Blood Shintai. This becomes increasingly more important when playing with Bloodline Disciplines such as MEL, VAL or THA. > > That aside, it seems a lot more sensible, and a non-Gargoyle option with VIS would be really quite exciting. > > EDIT: As an alternative, if you wanted to exaggerate the 'exotic' nature of the Kuei-Jin, you could ignore the above and pair up things like PRO/VAL, but make the more common, traditional, 'useful' Disciplines, such as OBF, AUS, DOM or FOR extremely rare or non-existent. This would make them very different, but force players to use very odd and new strategies, which would work. > > DOUBLE EDIT: If you're ever going to hand out DAI, you need to consider Infernal, to represent Akuma. Just a comment. > Good points, all (and yes, Akuma = Infernal, no worries there. They don't have many unifying Disciplines beyond Hellweaving though; think of them as 'Infernal Pander' that you could splash into an existing deck). So, if having too many bloodline/unique disciplines on the Kuei-Jin is problematic, we start to encounter the issue on effectively translating effects whilst still keeping a distinct flavour. Let’s take the Devil-Tigers; Black Wind provides the benefit of supernatural speed and savagery. Close enough to Celerity to make it a near-perfect fit. Ghost-Flame Shintai provides the ability to conjure and control the elemental essence of flame. The closest simile is Thaumaturgy (Walk of Flame), but it’s a long bow to draw and we’re probably best to keep it distinct (particularly as there might be other Disciplines with a better overlap). Demon Shintai allows the use to reshape their body into a eerie demonic form, complete with wings, spikes, tentacles and more. Vicissitude is a good fit (Horrid Form, Body Arsenal etc), but that’s also a great fit for Flesh Shintai (re-shaping flesh and twisting your image into horrifying forms), so let’s go with Protean instead; Eyes of the Beast, Wolf Claws, Mythic Form etc are all pretty demonic, after all. Dragon Tears gives the user a third eye in the middle of their forehead that they can use to gain insights into a situation, but can also be trained on an unsuspecting victim and flay their soul away. In the RPG, Obeah and Valeran are said to be Saulot’s corrupted, half-complete version of Dragon Tears. If there’s such a clear match, both are good fits but we’re probably better to go with Valeran as it’s slightly more common (not belonging to a Scarce clan and all) and has a more martial aspect that fits with the theme of the Devil-Tigers. In conclusion, it doesn’t take us long to start drifting into unique disciplines! (Oh, and many Devil-Tigers like to learn Kiai as an out-of-clan Discipline, kind of like how G1 Toreador like their Dominate, or there are a few Giovanni for Fortitude. Kiai is a power that grants the ability to stun or injure your enemies with your voice alone. It is, essentially, Melpominee’s Death of the Drum with a few tweaks. Do we give them Melpominee and by doing so unlock the political cards in that Discipline to the Devil-Tigers?) The other thing, of course, is that Kuei-Jin don’t have any canon method of speaking to animals, boosting their strength, etc. - indeed, the books make it clear that a Potence weenie is a slightly terrifying foe for Kuei-Jin as they don’t have the tools or experience to withstand such raw power. Giving Kuei-Jin access to ‘Finnish politics’ might make them too similar to their foes. To think of it another way, Imbued levels of difference are bad, Laibon levels of similarity may be too close. Replacing bloodlines wholesale (Melpominee-based decks without a Daughter in sight, for example) bad, expanding crypt options good. Would players settle for two new Disciplines per Dharma? But, is it worth adding more new Disciplines at the expense of keeping existing bloodline disciplines special? Or, would players not mind the use of bloodline disciplines as long as they were in non-traditional clan spreads (no Spiritus near Animalism/Presence, no Valeran near Auspex/Fortitude). This is stuff that literally keeps me up at night! cheers Disco Stu

> glaswanderer wrote: > Loved this set since I first saw it on Lasombra's site all those years ago. > > Could we see a larger version of the KotE Discipline symbols that you've created. Possibly along side the VtM Discipline that may turn into. > Hi Glaswanderer, Thanks so much for your feedback. My Lasombra-era version is now painfully out of date; that was back in the day I was playing around with concepts of Yin Chi and Yang Chi (I'd imagined two different coloured beads per crypt card). As rough as that version was, it directly lead to this iteration; Mike contacted me on the strength of that draft and we started placing images next to my much-revised texts. I don't have a reference sheet handy of all the symbols, but will put one together later down the track - particularly when we get the matter of Disciplines sorted out Also, for those old-school fans of my 'alpha' design, or indeed fans of the RPG; Whatever happened to the Direction trait? Earlier drafts of KOTE had an additional trait for the Kuei-Jin, known as Direction. In the roleplaying game, Direction functioned as a quasi-astrological personality archetype. In the card game, Direction functioned similarly to Dharma, in that it was a Kuei-Jin-specific trait that granted access to a range of card-based effects. During playtesting, it was found that Direction-specific cards tended to duplicate Dharma-specific cards, and as such the distinction was superfluous in most decks. In addition, most Heretical Dharmas eschewed the concept of Direction, so it only worked thematically as a Quincunx-only trait. As such, the decision was made to convert Directions into Quincunx-only Master: Archetypes, which will appear in a later release. cheers Disco Stu

> Non-existant user wrote: > > > Ankha wrote: > > When I read this, I think Chi should be replaced by blood. It may be less exotic, but since it is strictly the same, it would be more simple... Unless you want them to be restricted by Chanjelin Ward, Tenebrous Form etc. > > > This has to be tested, but it might be mandatory to make disciplines work. I guess one of the reasons behind the Conviction system is that the Imbued cannot hunt and play blood gain masters, so they cannot afford to pay cards with their life. If the Kuei-Jin are to play discipline cards, you want Giant's Blood, the Coven and Perfectionnist to work on them. > Hi Boris & Ankha, Thanks for your comments. Blood and Chi are supposed to be interchangeable terms, unlike Blood versus Life (as some effects only allow Life to be stolen or gained, for example). The Coven, Giant's Blood etc all work in this draft - they just add Chi tokens rather than Blood. If the term is found to be overly confusing, we can of course change it with zero impact on the mechanics. It's a stylistic nod only, to adds a little something to the KotE cards. cheers Disco Stu

Me again! Sorry about the multiple posts, but I thought it was time to add more to the rules infodump. Sects and titles As mentioned, the default sect for the five key Dharmas of the Kuei-Jin is ‘Quincunx.’ The Quincunx has three titles, none of which are unique or city- or clan-/Dharma-specific. Mandarin (1 vote) Ancestor (2 votes) Bodhisattva (3 votes) There is another sect, ‘Heretical’, that will be explored in later releases. (Design note: the decision not to tie the Ancestor to a given city was intentional; city-based contestation, which is really one of the key effects of city titles, did not seem likely enough to occur... and would be frustrating and overly random when it did.) Tenets ‘Tenet’ is the a new card-type in KOTE. Tenet cards reflect a Kuei-Jin becoming more enlightened as he acts in a manner that complements the beliefs of his Dharma. As such, Tenet cards always require a Dharma (and thus, inherently, a Kuei-Jin). Tenet cards may be played by both tapped and untapped Kuei-Jin, and may be played as a combat card, reaction or action modifier depending on the circumstances. A Kuei-Jin may have more than one Tenet, but only one of each Tenet. Kuei-Jin are more likely to achieve enlightenment by pursuing all aspects of their beliefs, rather than focusing on a single component of their Dharma. (Design note 1: Tenets could also work well as a ‘combo’ card, listing the Action Modifier, Combat and/or Reaction cards on the left-hand side and only featuring Tenet as a keyword. In early playtesting, it was found that separating Tenets into their own card type emphasised these cards when held in the hand. They are relatively easy to convert back, however.) (Design note 2: in the roleplaying game, Kuei-Jin gained power and influence based on how their relative state of enlightenment rather than their Generation. With that in mind, early drafts had KJ Master: Disciplines not providing any capacity boost, leaving Tenets as the key method to permanently boosting capacity. That distinction was eventually dropped when it became clear that this was too different to the core game’s mechanics. Several effects check the capacity of a Kuei-Jin against an opponent - it’s a central part of Kuei-Jin society - so I am happy to leave that effect on Tenets.) P’o ‘P’o’ is a new ‘active’ keyword referring to a Kuei-Jin’s inner demon or dark nature, and is roughly analogous to a vampire’s inner Beast. Only a Kuei-Jin may have a P’o card, and a Kuei-Jin may have only one P’o. Each time a Kuei-Jin performs a particular type of action successfully (the type of action is listed on the P’o card), the card gains a P’o counter. These counters may be burned per the text of the P’o card. If a Kuei-Jin has more P’o counters than Chi, they cannot attempt non-mandatory undirected actions. And now, some more card images for your viewing pleasure... cheers Disco Stu

One more post for the night; Now that we’ve gotten past all the new rules, time to talk about keywords. P’o is best thought of as an ‘active’ keyword, in that it has a rule attached to it. Blood Cursed is an active keyword, as it has a specific rulebook-defined function, as is {Cold Iron} Vulnerability or Sterile. ‘Passive’ keywords are phrases that other cards look for, but don’t have any inherit rule; Gun, Electronic and Circle are all passive, as is Trophy (the Red List rule looks for the Trophy keyword). Kuei-Jin, P’o and Tenet are the only active keywords in this set. There are a number of ‘passive’ keywords though... Chi Travel refers to a Kuei-Jin’s ability to travel through the spirit worlds. Some Chi Travel cards allow you to cancel other Chi Travel cards, as one Kuei-Jin effectively follows the other through into the spirit world. Faction is used to denote a political grouping within Kuei-Jin society. These groups can be powerful and wide reaching, but do not have the internal cohesion and influence of a sect. This word is found on ‘Dreams of the Sphinx’-style cards. Many have benefits to particular Dharmas, and some political actions can reward or punish a Methuselah for having too many of these in play. Omen is typically found on Dharma-specific cards. Omens represent occurrences that focus a minion on the nature of his or her immortal existence. Yin and Yang are keywords that are found on several cards requiring Disciplines. There are common, trifle, masters named Yin and Yang that can be used to reduce the cost of cards with those keywords (as well as other effects). The Shadow Songs and Thrashing Dragons (proponents of Yin and Yang, respectively) also have cards that allow you to reduce the cost of cards with such keywords, or cycle them back into your hand or library from the ash heap. cheers all, and keep the feedback coming! Disco Stu Prince of Melbourne, Australia

Some comments on the cards: Mandarin: should be a +1 Stealth action Mandate of Hell: instead of Unique, should be playable only once per game. Unique does not prevent the player from burning his own Mandate and playing it again for unlimited Giant's Blood. Powerbase: all powerbases have a built-in action to mess with it. You need to add one to these 2. Powerbase: Hong Kong is rather weak. The transfer should not take a MPA. Dragon Ward: the superior effect is HUGE. It needs to cost at least 2 blood. Enclave: should be a Haven.

> Non-existant user wrote: > Some comments on the cards: > > Mandarin: should be a +1 Stealth action > Mandate of Hell: instead of Unique, should be playable only once per game. Unique does not prevent the player from burning his own Mandate and playing it again for unlimited Giant's Blood. > Powerbase: all powerbases have a built-in action to mess with it. You need to add one to these 2. Powerbase: Hong Kong is rather weak. The transfer should not take a MPA. > Dragon Ward: the superior effect is HUGE. It needs to cost at least 2 blood. > Enclave: should be a Haven. > Because Mandarin gives the option of stacking onto previously-titled vamps, I figured it'd be useful to tone it down by dropping the stealth. A chi/blood cost of 1 would probably counteract that though. Mandate of Hell: fair cop, it should at least be someone else's minion who has to burn it! Nice pick up. A blood cost was also mooted, as if it was self-targeted it wouldn't matter if it passed, and if it failed then you'd be placing yourself in danger. PB: HK is, I think, nicely balanced for a Kuei-Jin heavy environment; it adds counters when other players start influencing out Kuei-Jin, after all, so it provides a nice bit of influence acceleration under the right conditions. Because of the slow aspect to both Powerbases, I thought I'd drop off their normal 'steal/burn this card' texts that you find on Powerbases. Osaka might have room to add it back on, but I'd potentially keep it off HK due to space restrictions. Dragon Ward: this didn't come up that much in actual playtest, surprisingly, because so few Kuei-Jin had superior Dragon Tears (and the Dragon Tears skill card was relatively rare). This was still flagged for review in both playtest groups, however, and was likely to get a blood or even pool cost added to it. Enclave: space considerations made me worry about adding too much more to this, but I wouldn't be averse to adding the Haven keyword. cheers Disco Stu Prince of Melbourne, Australia

> Shockwave wrote: > *Really* nervous concern: > Be especially careful about giving traditionally Clan-unique Disciplines to anyone else, especially more than one at a time. I'd be worried about a Dharma with THA/VIC for example, not just because of power levels per-se but also because it devalues the uniqueness of those Disciplines. I'd try & use the more general ones a bit more, although VIC is probably your only option for Flesh/Blood Shintai. This becomes increasingly more important when playing with Bloodline Disciplines such as MEL, VAL or THA. > > That aside, it seems a lot more sensible, and a non-Gargoyle option with VIS would be really quite exciting. > > EDIT: As an alternative, if you wanted to exaggerate the 'exotic' nature of the Kuei-Jin, you could ignore the above and pair up things like PRO/VAL, but make the more common, traditional, 'useful' Disciplines, such as OBF, AUS, DOM or FOR extremely rare or non-existent. This would make them very different, but force players to use very odd and new strategies, which would work. > > DOUBLE EDIT: If you're ever going to hand out DAI, you need to consider Infernal, to represent Akuma. Just a comment. > I really like the idea of making traditional, "useful" disciplines rare for KJ and the weirdo bloodlines disciplines more common. PRO/VAL? Hell yes!

I've made many cards exploring an Inconnu set myself and I know all too well the space considerations and card templating that you've had concerns about. Here are some editing thoughts for the cards you've presented to us. Mandate of Hell – Doesn’t need “Worth 1 vote” in the text. Momose Kaori – Doesn’t need “retainer” after “Unique mortal” in the text. Powerbases – Neither need “Powerbase” in their text. "Quincunx" and "Kuei-Jin" should be bolded in the text of the Kuei-Jin. I so excited about this set finally being developed. I've worked on an ally mini-set featuring werewolves, mages, changelings, and wraiths and the previously mentioned Inconnu. Guess I should post them too. Prince of Puyallup

Hi, I'm Mike Miller. I've been working with Disco Stu on these KotE cards since 2007. Stu does all the serious thinking and rules and card text. I stick to the visuals. I designed icons for the kuei-jin symbols and card backgrounds for the dharmas. I inserted relevant flavor text quotes on cards that had space for it. And I did indeed wade through thousands of images just so our card prototypes would evoke the right atmosphere and inspire the artists that White Wolf might use to make the real cards someday. I credited artists and photographers wherever possible, in hopes that White Wolf might contact them to use those images or obtain new ones from them. This has been a really challenging project for me. I'm an accountant, not an artist, but I've learned enough tricks with Gimp and Excel to cobble these cards together, along with the use of the excellent V:tes card generator hosted at dnn.vtes.net. So how did I team up with some guy on the opposite side of the planet to do these cards? I started playing Jyahd long ago, in August of '94. I think I first saw Stu's KotE card set at the Lasombra site in 2005. We had a local Create-A-Clan here in the Twin Cities in 2006, and I got so into the idea that I made four decks for it: Amber Clan, based on Zelazny's Amber series: Potence, Fortitude, Thaumaturgy and lots of voting power. Cathayan Clan, based on Kindred of the East: Auspex, Celerity, Vicissitude. Whateley Clan, based on a certain degenerate family from Dunwich: Necromancy, Dementation, and Obtenebration. Lots of diablerie. Gotham Clan, featuring Batman's rogues gallery: Chimeristry, Potence and Presence. I had so much fun making those decks that I wanted to do more. So I went back to the Lasombra site, looking for variants that needed cards. A lot of the cards seemed silly or overpowered, but I was very impressed with the restraint and balance in Stu's KotE set, so I sent him an email. Several hundred cards later, and here we are.

"We bear the mandate of Heaven to punish sinners and turn the Wheel of Ages. We are atrocity incarnate, burning bright to cauterize the corruption of the world. We are Heaven's Devils, who have clawed their way back from Hell to show the world what evil truly is, and to light a firee that will burn away the Ages." -- Dharmabook: Devil-Tigers Now that we have explored the rules and Disciplines of Kindred of the East, it is now time to meet some more of the crypt. First off, the Devil-Tigers. I've provided Discipline spreads in three models; an all-KJ Discipline spreada, '50% KJ Disciplines as new', and lastly a '25% KJ Discipline as new' distribution. You will note that the power curve of these vampires is off by approx. 1 point; that was intentional, and due to the relative lack of focus of KJ Disciplines. This imbalance would have to be corrected if we adopted a mixed-Discipline approach. An Ning, Minister of Protocol a. [DEMON SHINTAI, dragon tears, ghost-flame shintai] b. [ , dragon tears, ghost-flame shintai] c. [ , , ghost-flame shintai] Chiu Bao, First Oni a. [BLOOD SHINTAI, DEMON SHINTAI, dragon tears, ghost-flame shintai] b. [, + BLOOD SHINTAI, ghost-flame shintai] c. [ , , + ghost-flame shintai] Crimson Peony, the Bonfire a. [BLACK WIND, DEMON SHINTAI, DRAGON TEARS, ghost-flame shintai, jade shintai] b. [ , , , + DRAGON TEARS, ghost-flame shintai] c. [ , , , + ghost-flame shintai] Ho Hsu-Tu a. [GHOST-FLAME SHINTAI, cultivation] b/c. [as above; both (GFSH) and (CUL) would be new Disciplines] No-Shadow Raven a. [DRAGON TEARS, DEMON SHINTAI, GHOST-FLAME SHINTAI, KIAI] b. [ , + DRAGON TEARS, GHOST-FLAME SHINTAI] c. [ , + GHOST-FLAME SHINTAI] Yoshida Ozaki a. [BLACK WIND, GHOST-FLAME SHINTAI, demon shintai, equilibrium] b/c. [ , + GHOST-FLAME SHINTAI, equilibrium] I will provide similar overviews of the other Quincunx Dharmas in the next few days, so keep your eyes peeled! cheers Disco Stu Prince of Melbourne, Australia

"It is said that to starve to death is a very small matter, while to lose one's integrity is very serious indeed. We Cranes are the guardians of Cathayan integrity, and we take our role very seriously indeed. It is in our hands to uphold the mandate of Heaven and return our people to a state of grace. While vampirism is a just punishment for our damnable transgressions, that punishment does not need to be eternal. Through the strictest application of law and doctrine, we Cranes will return to our blessed state and become the holiest of warriors once more." We have encountered the depradations of the Devil-Tigers, and now it is time to meet their polar opposites - the Resplendent Cranes. Once again, I've provided Discipline spreads in three models; an all-KJ Discipline spreada, '50% KJ Disciplines as new', and lastly a '25% KJ Discipline as new' distribution. Cheng Yi a. [BLOOD SHINTAI, DRAGON TEARS, INTERNALIZE, OBLIGATION, iron mountain] b. [ + BLOOD SHINTAI, DRAGON TEARS, INTERNALIZE] c. [ + INTERNALIZE] Chou Tun Yi a. [BLOOD SHINTAI, OBLIGATION, demon shintai, feng shui, internalize] b. [ + BLOOD SHINTAI, feng shui, internalize] c. [ + internalize] Han Hui a. [INTERNALIZE, OBLIGATION, blood shintai] b. [ + INTERNALIZE, blood shintai] c. [ + INTERNALIZE] Lu Po-kung a. [INTERNALIZE, OBLIGATION, TAPESTRY, demon shintai] b. [ + INTERNALIZE, TAPESTRY] c. [ + INTERNALIZE] Po Ying a. [BLOOD SHINTAI, DEMON SHINTAI, internalize] b. [ + BLOOD SHINTAI, internalize] c. [ + internalize] Khuc Nguyet, Fist of Victory a. [obligation] b/c. [ ] These six Resplendent Cranes, I should add, are envisioned as a pretty solid cross-section for a starter deck; x2 copies each and you've got yourself a functional crypt, albeit one that could benefit from a couple of Zillah's Valleys! Again, I'll add the caveat that 'points' would need to be lowered if traditional VTES Disciplines are added to the mix. Another note: Obligation is a Discipline with some overlap to both Dominate and Presence. It doesn't have the strict mind control aspect of , though, so I figured that would be a more natural fit. Plus, the fewer Dominate weenies added the better, hey? (I'd almost be tempted to make it to play up the 'exotic' angle, but it's a less obvious fit from a roleplaying perspective so would have to be talked around to that one.) That said, Presence does provide a lot more vote push than I originally intended to have in Obligation, so that'd need to be taken into consideration when adjusting the minion cards. cheers, Disco Stu Prince of Melbourne Attachment RC_sample.jpg not found

"We are Shadow Songs, bone flowers, death-dancers, subtle disciples who hear the quiet voice that whisper forth from the eternal blackness of Yin. We are cold, unyielfing and unemotional. Our knowledge is supreme, our powers terrifying. We see the ancestors' ghosts and honour them. We are silent and deadly, scholar-assassins and mystics of the Underworld. Fear our ways." The third of the Quincunx Dharmas are the Shadow Songs. Once more, I've provided Discipline spreads in three models; an all-KJ Discipline spreada, '50% KJ Disciplines as new', and lastly a '25% KJ Discipline as new' distribution. This time, though, I've included a few Advanced crypt cards for variety... Miki, the Empty Hand a. [bone shintai, cultivation, mibasham] b. [ + cultivation, mibasham] c. [ + cultivation] Han Hanshou a. [BEAST SHINTAI, MIBASHAM, YIN PRANA] b. [ + MIBASHAM] c. [ ] Ku Zu, Bone Ancestor a. [BONE SHINTAI, CULTIVATION, YIN PRANA] b/c. [ + CULTIVATION] Kuro-Sama, Exalted Sensei a. [BONE SHINTAI, YIN PRANA, beast shintai, black wind, cultivation, mibasham] b. [ + cultivation, mibasham] c. [ + cultivation] Lili Zhou a. [YIN PRANA, bone shintai, flesh shintai] b/c. [ ] Masahiro a. [bone shintai, yin prana] b/c. [ ] I've tossed around a few thoughts on how to approach a match for Yin Prana. As the discipline has a number of stealth effects, my first thought was Obfuscate. However, in an effort to play up the mystical elements of Yin - as well as removing access of core disciplines from the Kuei-Jin - I've settled on Necromancy. This has some precedent in the roleplaying game, as rogue Kindred have actually taught a few Necromancy rituals to the Shadow Songs in the past. Bone Shintai possesses the bonecrafting element of Vicissitude, but quickly goes off on its own direction that wouldn't match that Discipline's effects. I thought that Thanatosis might be an appropriately odd match, but keen to receive feedback if anyone can think of a better match . Six Thrashing Dragons will follow soon, with the enigmatic Thousand Whispers later down the track to round out the Quincunx. Note that my original proposal would exclude the Thousand Whispers until the first 'expansion' to the KOTE core set, but for the purposes of completeness I figured I'd show off Mike's great work designing the Whispers' background art. cheers all, Disco Stu Prince of Melbourne, Australia Attachment SS_sample.jpg not found

"Some call us worshippers of nature, as if to imply we are somehow weak-willed or non-threatening. Never forget that the blood on a raging's tiger claws is nature, that the merciless cruelty of a typhoon is nature. We dance like the raging dragon, flowing like the teeming river. We never stop, for to stop is to die. We are passionate cratures, full of laughter and hunger, and masters of predatory enlightment. We are the Thrashing Dragons." Back again for installment #4. This time we're looking at the Thrashing Dragons, who you've already seen a brief glimpse of when I put up some sample crypt images a while ago. Asako Kiko a. [IRON MOUNTAIN, YANG PRANA, flesh shintai] b/c. [ + YANG PRANA] Black Earth Boy a. [FLESH SHINTAI, IRON MOUNTAIN, TAPESTRY, YANG PRANA, jade shintai] b. [ + TAPESTRY, YANG PRANA] c. [ + YANG PRANA] Okui Miyu a. [flesh shintai, tapestry] b. [ + tapestry] c. [ ] Old Man Spider a. [FENG SHUI, FLESH SHINTAI, TAPESTRY, iron mountain, mibasham, yang prana] b. [ + TAPESTRY, mibasham, yang prana] c. [ + yang prana] Piyau Piyang a. [FLESH SHINTAI, IRON MOUNTAIN, KIAI, YANG PRANA, ghost-flame shintai, tapestry] b. [ + YANG PRANA, ghost-flame shintai, tapestry] c. [ + YANG PRANA, ghost-flame shintai] Suro a/b. [tapestry, yang prana] c. [ + yang prana] Note that in these most recent updates I've been equating Feng Shui - a minor discipline, non-clan to all Dharmas - into Auspex . Mytherceria would also be a good fit, and Auspex could either be dumped (in a quest to remove more commonly found Disciplines from the mix) or used for Tzu Wei, a Discipline found a couple of expansions down the track once we come to the Heretical Kuei-Jin. cheers Disco Stu Prince of Melbourne, Australia Attachment TD_sample.jpg not found

Very Sweet!!! Keep up the good work!

"They call us Rootless Trees, Broken Masks, Hollow Reeds. We are chameleons living amongst the breathing masses, learning from our many lives like the centipede learns from its steps. Each step brings us closer to enlightenment, and each is forgotten when it is over. To the Courts, we are agents of balance, correcting others when they become too decadent, too moral, too still or too restless. For this, they call us 'mysterious' and 'inscrutable' to our faces... behind closed doors, they say 'mad' and 'treacherous'. The others distrust our riddles and visions. They do not realise that our insight gives us the power to grasp the emptiness that dwells at the heart of all existence, to conquer death and life alike." The last of the five Dharmas of the Quincunx sect are the enigmatic Thousand Whispers. They are probably the hardest to define, in roleplaying terms, as the other four seem to stand for something concrete whilst the Whispers sit in the middle, constantly changing perspective and identity. In VTES terms, I wanted to play up the 'mystical enlightenment' angle of this strange Dharma, so I gave them a range of effects that target Omens and Tenets. One of their key disciplines, Equilibrium, also affects Yin and Yang cards. In that way, they are perhaps the most Kuei-Jin of all the Kuei-Jin! Cho Sen Ho a. [INTERNALIZE, dragon tears, flesh shintai, jade shintai] b. [ + INTERNALIZE, dragon tears ] c. [ + INTERNALIZE] Empty Cup a. [jade shintai] b/c. [ ] Hakari a. [EQUILIBRIUM, INTERNALIZE, feng shui, yang prana] b/c. [ + EQUILIBRIUM, INTERNALIZE, yang prana] Jotaro a. [equilibrium, jade shintai] b/c. [ + equilibrium] Lun Meng a. [EQUILIBRIUM, FENG SHUI, JADE SHINTAI, black wind] b/c. [ + EQUILIBRIUM] True Jade a. [DRAGON TEARS, EQUILIBRIUM, INTERNALIZE, JADE SHINTAI, ghost-flame shintai, yin prana] b. [ + DRAGON TEARS, EQUILIBRIUM, INTERNALIZE, ghost-flame shintai] c. [ + EQUILIBRIUM, INTERNALIZE, ghost-flame shintai] The Yin Chi and Yang Chi cards referenced on True Jade's text are common cards found in the set; think of them as equivalent to Orun and Aye, for Laibon. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I'd envisioned the Thousand Whispers to wait until the second release (a 60-card mini-expansion, entitled Courts of the Quincunx). Dropping the core release down to four key Dharmas made it much easier to keep the crypt numbers from spiralling out of control, not to mention the Dharma-specific cards that go along with each new addition. Set 3, Shadow War, was intended to nicely fill out the Thousand Whispers crypt selection as well as introducing the Tempests, heretical warrior-priests who also use the Equilibrium discipline. But, all that is a while off! I'm taking the opportunity to re-cut set designs to ensure the concepts are as integrated with mainstream VTES as possible. Look out for more stuff soon, and please keep feedback coming, particularly on Discipline selections and new mechanics (P'o, Tenet, etc.). cheers Disco Stu Prince of Melbourne, Australia Attachment TW_sample.jpg not found

I like the '25% KJ Discipline as new' discipline spread. Some interesting matchings. Nick

Great idea! And good job. Looking forward to more! I once also started looking at this. But gave up quite fast. Wrote some down here: www.vtesbergen.net/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=780 on the local forum. Some is written in norwegian, but some are english. I thought of Yin/Yang as Aye/Orun for the Laibon.

What you have shown us so far is pure beauty, especially in the case of the vampires. I'm looking forward to seeing the whole thing. That said I would strongly suggest that you keep all new disciplines. The reason for this is purely flavor. Speaking as a KotE fanboy, it would feel very weird to see all these western (and clan-specific) disciplines on kuei-jin. It would feel even weirder to see a Thousand Whispers/Gargoyle crypt. I don't think I'd even touch the expansion then. Think about how many people would like to play an exclusively kuei-jin deck in their casual playgroup versus how many just want some new Visceratika cards for their old deck. As to the new mechanics: The tenets are cool. The P'o cards are overcomplicated. More counters on the table is more confusion and the restriction is really non-intuitive. "...cannot perform nonmandatory undirected actions"? How about "must hunt or bleed" or something along these lines? This would be my idea of a P'o card (not using your keyword): Invoking the P'o Combat This Kuei-Jin has +2 strength for the remainder of combat. Put this card on this Kuei-Jin, burn it after its next action is resolved. In this Kuei-Jin's controller's next minion phase this Kuei-Jin must bleed. Not sure about the balance, but you get the general idea.

> name1 wrote: > That said I would strongly suggest that you keep all new disciplines. The reason for this is purely flavor. Speaking as a KotE fanboy, it would feel very weird to see all these western (and clan-specific) disciplines on kuei-jin. It would feel even weirder to see a Thousand Whispers/Gargoyle crypt. I don't think I'd even touch the expansion then. > You might be one of the very few that wouldn't. See: Bloodlines vs. Nights of Reckoning. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

@Kevin: I don't know. Maybe a poll would be in order? I just had a thought about the disciplines. I'd still prefer it if you kept the concept of all new, but... if we're already completely deviating from the source material, why not use western disciplines that are less clan-specific and more flavor-neutral? So as not to try to closely emulate the eastern disciplines (which I think wasn't going very well anyway), but rather show the theme of the dharma. For example: Song of Shadow They are scholars. They are also assassins. They are unfeeling, walking corpses permeated with Yin. 4th: new discipline. Cultivation? Yin Prana? Bone Shintai? and maybe would be sufficient for giving the right feel to the dharmas, I think. This would make the Kuei-Jin look more like the african vampires. I just find the emulation with rare disciplines really strange. Two other things: Roughly 5 out of 6 vampires in the previews have specials. Maybe too many? I'd love to help playtest this with my group.

Hi Name1, Thanks for your thoughtful comments. P'o: you're correct in saying that the restriction is a bit complicated. It was intended to depower vote/equip decks, without punishing players who wanted to Harass their opponents into oblivion (which suits the theme of P'o!). What if it simply became "can't perform non-mandatory actions?" or "can't perform an action except to hunt?" ... the latter probably makes the most sense, as it directly links to a Kuei-Jin's efforts to re-balance their blood versus P'o token totals. That'd make the cards more of a mixed blessing, of course, so their power curve would need to be tweaked accordingly. Or, I could take off any restriction and adjust the curve the other way. The all-new Disciplines versus bloodline-Disciplines versus Core 8-Disciplines balance is a real chestnut, and one which isn't going to be solved to everyone's liking. I'd love to have all-new Disciplines - and designed the sets as such - but if it's only me and a few other KOTE fanboys who'd enjoy such a set then that's a fail. KevinM's comment gets to the heart of that; sometimes self-contained and stand-alone isn't necessarily a good thing. Your suggestions on using the core 8 disciplines makes sense, but the concepts behind the Dharmas are sufficiently broad that it may be difficult to make clear linkages that don't exclude some aspect of their philosophy. Devil-Tigers, say, are fanatical warriors bent on punishing wickedness and challenging the status quo. Celerity and Fortitude would make them fantastic warriors, but so too would Potence, or indeed Protean, or even Animalism (Bats & Crows trumps many great combat decks). So, I think whilst there's some merit in that approach it puts the cart before the horse a little. I'd prefer to let the Tenets and other Dharma-specific cards shape the various spirit of each faction, then let the Disciplines riff off those. Back to the topic of the 'core 8', I figure that if people are going to add Kuei-Jin to their decks they'd like something a bit weird and unusual, rather than something that feels like 'Malkavians with Fortitude', 'Brujah with Quietus', etc. Throwing heretofore-unique Disciplines into the mix allows players a more accessible set without sacrificing too much of the exoticism. It does weaken the Bloodlines slightly, but Bloodline fanatics (like myself... the weirder the better!) wouldn't mind some additional support, I think. (To be honest, I think my general lack of interest in the Camarilla clans might be driving much of my resistance to core Disciplines, although I understand that the mileage of others will vary considerably.) As to your comment on specials, yep, the majority of Kuei-Jin do indeed have these. I think that it is (/was) a growing trend in VTES anyway, but in my case it also goes back to the days when the KJ Disciplines were seperate and distinct; because there were fewer cards available, I wanted to create interesting in-built abilities that'd make for valuable mid- and high-cap minions even if you didn't have a great card selection in hand. On top of that, some smaller minions have inherent weaknesses to increase the number of Discipline 'points' they could have. Note that Mike is busy with Real Life at the moment, so it'll be a couple of months before we have any revised card images up on the forum. However, I will be adding some polls once I can figure out how to do so so any such revisions will take into account the mood of the broader playgroup. cheers all, and thanks for your continuing interest in this concept! Disco Stu Prince of Melbourne, Australia

Hi everyone, Many apologies for the delay but the Kindred of the East survey is here! www.surveymonkey.com/s/LTR8T6X It's only ten questions long, but some of them are quite involved - it'll probably take up to 10 minutes of your time. Once I receive a sizeable response, I'll publish the results here. I'll be really keen to see how the responses compare to the various drafts of the rules I've created over the years, and which of the various comments and perspectives featured in this thread to date. cheers all, and thanks in anticipation! Disco Stu Prince of Melbourne, Australia PS. This is the first time I've used SurveyMonkey, so let me know if things don't display correctly.

The survey displayed correctly for me - and I liked the questions... "It was a perfect plan - until it had contact with reality" --- Hardy Range Playgroup Tradition Compliance Manager

I'm glad to see things moving forward. I wanted to point out that some design decisions are better made by deliberation than democracy. For example: my answers to questions 8 and 9 were completely uninformed. Just remember that a camel is a horse designed by committee.

Hi everyone, Name1 - I agree with your horse/camel comment! I'm using the survey as an attempt to inform my design, and get a gut feel for how far off from the player base some of my ideas are I now have sufficient responses from the SurveyMonkey quiz that I can share the results. 1. How do you think Kuei-Jin should be represented in VTES? The overwhelming response was 'as vampires, put into play via the uncontrolled region as per normal'. Interestingly, a sizeable number of respondents (almost 20%) were keen to see a brand-new minion type instead. This was, for those who have followed my earlier drafts of Kindred the East, the first approach I took to card design so I’m a little chuffed that it got such support. 2. Dharma and Clan Almost two-thirds of respondents wanted Dharma to be treated as Clan. For those keeping score, this is different from my current design where Dharma is a new (Kuei-Jin-only) trait and Kuei-Jin are technically clanless. 3. Clan Disciplines This was a very interesting response because the results were so varied. Over a third wanted all=-new Disciplines, but a sizeable population (31%) wanted a mixture of all-new and existing hard-to-find Disciplines. Whilst I’m conscious of the small sample size of this survey, this result indicates that a mixture of 50% new and 50% existing Disciplines would be broadly accepted by players. 4. Discipline cards The overwhelming response here was that existing Disciplines would be best treated as ‘outferior’ text, but there was a high proportion of write-in responses that suggested a mixture of outferior, single-Discipline cards and ‘Kuei-Jin only’ limitations could create something for everyone. Once I reconciled it to myself that this set wasn’t going to see 15-odd new Disciplines in one shot, this mixed approach is one that I personally favour and I was happy to see the survey support it. 5. The P’o The preference here was for temporary effects that used the Frenzy keyword, although I had a high number of write-in responses once again. The write-in comments pushed the trend slightly more toward semi-permanent archetypes, albeit I was also reminded that there was sufficient unexplored design space to not necessarily require brand-new rules to manage the P’o. I’ll take this ‘softening’ of the P’o on board. The P’o was a fairly central design piece in earlier drafts, and I was keen to explore how the various P’o archetypes I’d created might create more options for combat decks. That said, I do admit that the rules are a little clunky as is and may require another revision to get the balance right. 6. Rules, themes and keywords This was an interesting one, in that some respondents seemed to have a ‘one of everything’ approach whilst others were a lot more focused in their response. Broadly, the top five things that people wanted to see were; * reprinted cards (albeit with comments that this wouldn’t necessarily be the best set to see them in) * alternative uses for discard phase actions * cards that affect or target the Research Area * alternative uses for transfer points * infernal minions, or cards that affect infernal minions These five got almost exactly the same response rate, so it’s hard to pick one as the ‘winner’ here. In terms of how this compared to my current design, I guess I’d point out that KOTE was originally designed in an environment where VTES was in print for the foreseeable future, so reprinted cards clearly didn’t figure too much into my initial design beyond for filling out starter card-lists. The Research Area was only brought into the game after the first couple of sets had been completed, so any Research-based effects don’t pop up for some time - but I can easily shunt some cards into a different release schedule. Infernalism does become a theme by Set 4, where both the Akuma (Baali of the Orient, effectively) and the Scorpion Eaters (a nearly-infernal bloodline) make an appearance. 7. Set size The answers here were all over the place! ‘61-120 cards’ lead the pack, but it was followed by a strong result from ‘201+ cards’. 8. Number of Dharmas and minions per Dharma A very interesting result indeed! There was some curious outliers (1-3 minions for 6+ Dharmas, across to 16-20 minions for a single Dharma only). Clustering occurred around 4-5 Dharmas (91%, with the preference on 4 Dharmas), with 9-12 minions for 5 Dharmas, or 13-15 for 4. 9. Crypt groups There was a very strong preference for two groups only in this initial release. This varies from my current design, which spreads the starting crypt over 3 groups to maximise compatibility with existing crypt spreads. In my mind, later sets would both fill out those 3 groups substantially, whilst also expanding out the group spread. That’s a slightly awkward way of doing things though, so I can certainly understand why people went for two groups only. 10. Interest in playing the set Over half of respondents would only be keen to play if VEKN approved the set as tournament-legal. The remainder, with only a few exceptions, would be keen to play regardless of any ‘official’ status. I had an inherently biased pool of respondents here - you first had to have some interest in Kindred of the East to read my posts, then have sufficient motivation to click on the link and get through the survey - but I’m happy with the result regardless. So, all in all, thanks for the responses everyone! Cheers Disco Stu Prince of Melbourne, Australia PS. I’ve been asked a couple of times as to what I think of the upcoming release for VTES. I’d just like to reiterate that, as much of a fan of Kindred of the East as I clearly am, my preference would be toward a Sabbat-themed set. I’ve put my thoughts on that elsewhere in detail, but in essence my approach comes down to this; * VEKN should find a way to promote the game to new players and ensure that existing players stick around. * A set that has significant overlap with the design principles we’ve seen so far in VTES would mean existing players are less likely to be scared off. * Kindred of the East could have great crossover potential for players interested in Eastern mythology (the occasional bit of HAB-slicing-up-demons-with-a-katana artwork wouldn’t hurt, either). But, it’s not a safe bet for VEKN, or at least not until existing players are content with the very concept of non-WOTC/WW/CCP releases. So, whilst I think it’d be a worthy release for 2013, I’m not expecting a phone call anytime soon

Congratulations! It's a very nice idea and plus using well adapted traits showned in the books. I think that it would be released as a mini-expansion first and then, if it works properly, later release as a full expansion.

Total delay reaction on this survey; I must have been too engrossed in The Path of Blood back in the day. Just answered the survey before looking at the results, and I was mostly in tune with the rest of the answers. I wish this was a real thing, but perhaps one day, when VTES returns from torpor a second time... I sort of wish Laibon got better cards for their "Traditions" equivalent to the Camarilla, so my best advice is don't be afraid to mimic powerful cards or explore lateral strategies with some vigor. Note how it took 3 sets before Aanrchs really got into their own, and how Laibon are still struggling (Nana Bukuru excepted, naturally). I also hope it expands into the other KotE fun, with the Heretical Dharmas (Flames of Rising Phoenix, Face of the Gods, Cerulean Veils, Path of the Inward Tempest, Scorpion Eaters), and the competing courts (Green Courts of Korea, Golden Courts of Indonesia, Thunders Courts of India, Bishamon and Genji of Japan, whatever is left of Mongolia and the Andu). Maybe one day it will all be realized, as VTES has sort of become oWoD the CCG, (or at least One World by Night the CCG). It's the last CCG I still care about as it never shifted to block sets and is a glorious mess of everything under the sun -- and I wholly love the idea of 20 new disciplines (and 10 dharmas, 5 sects, plus whatever else imaginable) to tack onto the game. We're currently at 92 major category symbols, so what's another 30+ plus among friends! Besides, it's impressive to new players (possibly intimidating, too, but whatever).

Hey, It's me, back from the abyss. I hadn't logged into VEKN forums for a while and didn't notice the continued interest in this set. (Thanks to those who sent me private messages about it, also - there were quite a few stacked up!) One question I've been asked a few times is what the Heretical Dharmas looked like. While Mike and I never did any card art for those guys, I did do some work to revise them to the 50/50 old/new discipline mix after absorbing the feedback from this forum. An example of the path I was going down is as follows; Godlings: Indra-gha, God of Rain and Tears [Godling, 5] [ prayer-eating] Independent. Kuei-Jin. During the Determine Range step on the first round of a combat, Indra-gha may burn 1 blood to inflict 1 damage to the opposing minion and that minion’s retainers. Sterile. Harasekhara [Godling, 4] [cultivation prayer-eating] Independent. Kuei-Jin. Harasekhara has +1 bleed when bleeding a Methuselah who controls a ready Rising Phoenix. Sterile. Kabir [Godling, 4] [CULTIVATION prayer-eating] Independent. Kuei-Jin. Kabir has +1 stealth on actions that require Prayer-Eating [pra]. Sterile. The Nameless One [Godling, 7] [CULTIVATION PRAYER-EATING] Independent. Kuei-Jin. During a bleed action targeting you, you may tap the Nameless One and discard a random card from your hand to reduce the bleed by 3. +1 bleed. Sterile. Shiva-Ohm [Godling, 9] [ PRAYER-EATING ] Independent. Kuei-Jin. Red List. Godlings have +1 bleed. If Shiva-Ohm is ready, you may tap him and X mortal allies to give an acting Godling +X bleed for the remainder of the current action. Sterile. Anointment [Godling] +1 stealth action. Move up to 4 Chi from this acting Godling to a Godling in your uncontrolled region. Book of Sevenfold Gathering [Godling] [1 pool] Unique Tome. The Godling with the Book has +1 bleed, and may move 2 blood from the blood bank to a younger Kuei-Jin in your uncontrolled region as a +1 stealth action. Divine Majesty [Godling] Strike: combat ends. If the opposing minion was an ally, this Godling untaps. Loyal Congregation [Godling] [1 pool] Mortal with 3 life. 2 strength, 0 bleed. Loyal Congregation cannot act, and may only block actions directed at a Godling. Tap Loyal Congregation during your master phase to move 2 blood from your pool to a ready Godling. Willing Sacrifice [Godling] Mortal retainer with 2 life. If this Godling has less than 2 blood during your untap phase, you may move all life from the Willing Sacrifice to this Godling. As for Prayer-Eating (signature discipline of the Godlings); Devour the Prayer Only usable during a hunt action. Do not replace until the end of the action. [pra]: If this action is successful, move 1 life from an ally that you control to this vampire. [PRA]: tap an ally that you control to steal 1 pool from another Methuselah. Fulfillment +1 stealth action. Do not replace until the end of the current minion phase. [pra]: Untap an ally and this Kuei-Jin, or add 3 life to an ally. [PRA]: as above, and this Kuei-Jin has +1 bleed for the remainder of the current minion phase. Prayer Appraisal +1 stealth action. [pra]: tap X allies to gain X blood from the blood bank, or burn X blood to untap X allies. [PRA]: Take control of an ally or retainer. Unbreakable Bond [pra]: Only usable when an action is announced that targets a retainer or ally that you control. That action fails. [PRA]: As above, and this Kuei-Jin gains 2 blood. Worship +2 stealth hunt action. [pra]: Hunt. If this action is successful, you may tap an ally that you control to untap this Kuei-Jin. [PRA]: as above, and move up to 2 blood from this Kuei-Jin to your pool. I'll post up some stuff for some other Dharmas in coming days... cheers Disco Stu

Prayer Appraisal seems it might be very powerful (its "untap X allies" part), possibly worth building a deck around. Maybe move that ability to advanced PRA? And do post some more Kuei-Jin cards/art, if you feel like it

Somebody pick up the phone and hire this man. He has provided well thought out ideas, carefully constructed,and delivered in a clear, articulate manner with tangible examples. Well done Sir, I like it a lot. Pitty the imbued expansion wasn't as well thought out imo.

Oops, got a little distracted by the Australian Continental Champs and forgot to come back and post some more The Tempests of Inward Focus are a heretical sect who are split between prosletyizing mercenaries and pacifist priests. Their clan disciplines include Celerity, Mytherceria, as well as the new disciplines of Equilibrium and Inward Way. Equilibrium is a relatively common Kuei-Jin discipline, and is often possessed by the heretical Rising Phoenixes and the Centipedes of the Quincunx. Inward Way, by contrast, is effectively unique to the Tempests. Tempest effects play up their differences - they're heretical after all, with unnatural and almost alien beliefs compared to the Kuei-Jin establishment (including their profound distaste for the spirit world). Tempests steer clear of extremes, and punish those who commit too completely to a particular strategy. Annie Li [TEM, 5] [ inward way ] Independent. Kuei-Jin. When Annie is ready, you have +1 hand size. Sterile. Big Daddy Wa [TEM, 4] [EQUILBRIUM inward way] Independent. Kuei-Jin. Big Daddy has -1 stealth on mandatory actions. Sterile. Chuang-Tzu, the Sage [TEM, 9] [ INWARD WAY ] Independent. Kuei-Jin. Chuang-Tzu’s hand strikes inflict aggravated damage against allies. +1 bleed. Sterile. Lu Shin Lo [TEM, 9] [CULTIVATION INWARD WAY equilibrium ] Independent. Kuei-Jin. If Lu Shin Lo successfully equips with a weapon, untap him. +2 hand size. Sterile. Wilhelm Tjilatjap [TEM, 4] [EQUILIBRIUM inward way ] Independent. Kuei-Jin. Wilhelm cannot block actions. Sterile. Element of Surprise [Tempest] [2 blood] This Tempest has +1 stealth and +1 intercept for the remainder of the current minion phase, even if that stealth or intercept is not needed. Extremis Sin [Tempest] [X blood] Only usable by a Tempest who has successfully blocked an action, before combat occurs. Choose a card in the controlling Methuselah’s ash heap. Remove X copies of that card in the ash heap from the game, then gain X+1 blood. Illusion-Shattering Strike [Tempest] Strike: 2R damage, and put this card on the opposing minion. The minion with this card cannot play cards that require Chimerstry, Dementation or Thaumaturgy. If the minion with this card is a changeling, demon or wraith, burn that minion. Any minion may burn Illusion-Shattering Strike as a action. Kabalyeru [Tempest] +1 stealth action. Unique. Put this card on the acting Tempest. If this Tempest successfully performs an action to enter combat with another minion, they have +1 strength and an optional maneuver in the resulting combat. Burn Kabalyeru if this Tempest leaves the ready region. Moderation [Tempest] +1 stealth action. Gain 2 pool, and choose a card in your ash heap. Search your library, hand and ash heap for copies of that card and remove them from the game. If more than 2 cards were removed from the game in this manner, this acting Kuei-Jin gains 2 blood from the blood bank. Introspection +1 stealth action. [inw]: Put this card on the acting vampire. Actions directed at this vampire cost an additional pool. Burn this card if this vampire enters combat. [INW]: as above, and untap this vampire. Rest upon the Blade [inw] : prevent one damage. [INW] : Put this card on the acting vampire. This Kuei-Jin may play reaction cards as if untapped. Their capacity is increased by 2 for the purposes of action modifiers played by other minions. During your untap phase, this vampire burns 1 blood or burn this card. Scales of Need [inw]: Only usable when a minion attempts to block this acting vampire. Discard a card from your hand and gain 1 blood. [INW]: +2 bleed. You cannot play any further action modifiers to increase this bleed amount. Scarlet Typhoon Kata Grapple. Only usable at close range. [inw]: Strike: strength damage, with an additional strike. The opposing minion cannot play additional strikes this round of combat. [INW]: Only usable at the end of a round of combat when both combatants are still ready. Burn 1 blood to begin another combat with the opposing minion. Turning Inward +1 stealth action. Unique. [inw]: Put this card on the acting vampire. You have +1 hand size and this vampire has –1 intercept. Burn this card during your next master phase. [INW]: as above, and gain an additional master phase action when you burn Turning Inward. cheers Disco Stu

Onto the Rising Phoenixes. These guys hide among the kine, and continue their mortal lives as best as possible. They tend to be lower capacity than many clans. Their disciplines include Cultivation, Equilibrium, Chimerstry and Obtenebration. Chimerstry is a stand-in for Mibasham in the Kindred of the East canon, while Obtenebration is a substitute for a little-known discipline known as Smoke Shintai. Their preference for a mortal way of living means that Disciplines and bleed mods are generally downplayed, in favour of stealth and overall resilience. Harjinder Wickramasinghe [Phoenix, 4] [cultivation prayer-eating] Independent. Kuei-Jin. Harjinder has -1 bleed when bleeding a Methuselah who controls a ready Independent vampire. Sterile. Jiwan Shan [Phoenix, 4] [cultivation internalize] Independent. Kuei-Jin. Once per combat, Jiwan may strike: dodge. Sterile. Kataragama [Phoenix, 8] [ cultivation ] Independent. Kuei-Jin. Red List. If Kataragama is in torpor, any mortal ally may move him to your ready region as a +1 stealth action. +1 stealth. Sterile. Ki Yuen [Phoenix, 4] [ cultivation] Independent. Kuei-Jin. Ki Yuen cannot block allies. Sterile. The Beggar King [Phoenix, 3] [ ] Independent. Kuei-Jin. You may tap The Beggar King during an action to give an ally you control +1 intercept. Sterile. So, onto some Cultivation cards; Communion [cul]: +1 stealth. Any Methuselah may burn 2 Frenzy cards from their hand to cancel this card as it is played. [CUL]: as above, but for +2 stealth. Dual Soul [cul]: Inflict 2 damage on an untapped ally or younger vampire, and tap that minion. [CUL]: As above, and if the targeted minion is a werewolf or Kuei-Jin, this action is at +1 stealth and inflicts 1 additional damage. Lash the Demon Frenzy. Only usable before range is determined. [cul]: The opposing minion has -1 strength for the remainder of combat. [CUL]: as above, and for the remainder of the current combat the opposing minion cannot maneuver to close range or press to continue combat. Scrutinize [cul]: : Put Scrutinize on the acting Kuei-Jin. The Kuei-Jin with this card has +1 intercept. During your untap phase, this Kuei-Jin may burn 1 blood to add a Scrutiny counter to a minion. When a minion with a Scrutiny counter is in combat, their controller plays with an open hand. [CUL]: as above, and this Kuei-Jin may attempt to block minions with a Scrutiny counter (ignoring normal blocking restrictions). And, some new cards for existing Disciplines; Conundrum [2 blood] Requires a ready Kuei-Jin. Only usable when an ally or younger vampire is bleeding you, after blocks are declined. Tap this reacting Kuei-Jin to choose a Methuselah, except for the acting minion’s controller. The bleed is now targeting that Methuselah. as above, and the acting minion has +1 bleed. Scattered Thoughts Requires a ready Kuei-Jin. Only usable during a bleed action. The acting minion has –1 stealth. If the acting minion is not controlled by your predator, they also have –1 bleed. Burn 1 pool and tap this Kuei-Jin to cancel the action and untap the acting minion. Smoke Without Fire Requires a Kuei-Jin. Choose a minion. That minion has –1 intercept for the remainder of the current action. as above, and remove a card in your ash heap that requires Obtenebration from the game to gain +1 stealth. Words of Smoke Requires a ready Kuei-Jin. Only usable during a referendum. Gain 2 votes. +2 stealth, only usable on a political action. If this action is successful and a referendum occurs, you may burn a blood to gain 2 votes. Lastly, some Phoenix-specific effects; Kites [Phoenix] Only usable during a hunt or recruit action. This Rising Phoenix untaps and attempts to block the acting minion with +1 intercept (even if the intercept is not yet needed). Mists of the Lotus [Phoenix] [1 blood] +1 stealth action. Put this card on a minion, and/or move a Mists of the Lotus from your ash heap to your library (shuffle afterward). The minion with this card has -1 intercept when attempting to block a Rising Phoenix. Walk Among the Living [Phoenix] [2 blood] Only usable as an action is announced. +1 stealth, even if the stealth is not yet needed. Vampires, wraiths and zombies must burn 1 blood or life to attempt to block this action. cheers Disco Stu