Re: Blood to Water clarification

HI, When can Blood to Water be played and when does the oposite minion burns the blood? " blood to water Only usable at close range, before strike resolution. Not usable during the first round of combat. Inferior - If the opposing minion is an ally, he or she is burned. Otherwise, the opposing vampire burns 3 blood. Superior - Opposing vampire burns 5 blood. " 1st - Blood to Water states that it can only be used at close range and must be used before strike resolution so, it must be played during the strike selection step. 2nd - By the rules the ative minion selects his strike 1st. This means that: - If the ative minion plays BtW before he chooses his strike the oposing minion will have to burn his blood before he can choose he's strike? - Can the oposing minion play BtW before the ative minion selects his strike forcing the ative minion to burn blood before he is able to choose his strike? The other point of the question is, BtW is not a strike and it states that it mus be played before strike resolution. However it does not say when the oposing minion should burn the blood. - Is the blood burned during the select strike step or during the strike resolution step?

> The other point of the question is, BtW is not a strike and it states that it mus be played before strike resolution. However it does not say when the oposing minion should burn the blood. > immediatelly, after the card is played

After range is established, the impulse passes from acting to non acting methuselah, juat as in any instance of cards and sequences. Same window as grapple is played, Btw is. The above answer from Alek should clear up the question. So, if you BtW an imbued, they cant burn a strike with conviction for a strike, and you car earth meld or whatever, as combats done when the ally burns. Unless they have ruah counters from masochism, or an untapped corporeal resivoir, an empty vamp cant play a strike costing blood they dont have, period. And BtW happens before they can chose strikes, as stated. Fun card. Wish i had more uses for it, but Petaniqua is the only non potemce close range thaum superstar i feel is worth the effort of building with. And She has loads of awesome to compensate for no amswer to sce (well, blessings of chaos, but that wont stop earth meld or flash grenades.....)

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > Unless they have ruah counters from masochism, or an untapped corporeal resivoir, an empty vamp cant play a strike costing blood they dont have, > Given that you're including Masochism in there and it reduces the cost of the card: Whenever this vampire plays a card, you may remove X rush counters from this card to reduce that card's blood cost by X. ...there are a variety of other ways of achieving a cost reduction. For example: Ankara Citadel: "Cards that cost blood cost this vampire half as much blood to play (round down)." Textbook Damnation: "Cards that require Daimoinon [dai] cost this vampire 2 less blood. " Inner Essence: "Once this combat, this vampire can reduce the cost to play a combat card by 1 blood." Succulent Vitae: "When this vampire plays a card that requires Quietus [qui] , he or she may burn this card to reduce the cost of that card by 1 blood." Nergal: "Once each turn, Nergal may reduce the cost of a card he plays by one blood." Meshenka: "Cards that require Vicissitude [vic] cost Meshenka one less blood." Miller Delmardigan: "Cards that require Celerity [cel] cost Miller one less blood. +1 strength." Marconius: "Cards requiring Mytherceria [myt] cost Marconius 1 less blood." (And a host of similar "1 less" vampires.) Also: Dragos: "Dragos does not have to burn blood to pay the cost of combat cards he plays." And in the case of Corporal Reservoir, you have the blood when you play the card. That is, you tap Corporal Reservoir first, then play the card. So it's not a special case letting you play cards when empty.

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > Fun card. Wish i had more uses for it, but Petaniqua is the only non potemce close range thaum superstar i feel is worth the effort of building with. And She has loads of awesome to compensate for no amswer to sce (well, blessings of chaos, but that wont stop earth meld or flash grenades.....) > Evil Eye is the ultimate answer to S:CE.

> Lemminkäinen wrote: > > > ReverendRevolver wrote: > > Fun card. Wish i had more uses for it, but Petaniqua is the only non potemce close range thaum superstar i feel is worth the effort of building with. And She has loads of awesome to compensate for no amswer to sce (well, blessings of chaos, but that wont stop earth meld or flash grenades.....) > > > Evil Eye is the ultimate answer to S:CE. > I agree, but in practice, Petaniqua combat was clunky with psuedo disciplines when i tried. Really funny though.

> Azog wrote: > When can Blood to Water be played and when does the oposite minion burns the blood? > LSJ: "It can be played any time after range is determined and before strikes resolve, and only if the range is close." groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/JUnIGIrb3pw/EOo-cGykdmYJ The effect is immediate (either burning blood or burning the ally). > Azog wrote: > 1st - Blood to Water states that it can only be used at close range and must be used before strike resolution so, it must be played during the strike selection step. > No, it can be played at other moments: www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/78713-blood-of-water-timing-before-strike-resolution#100237 > Azog wrote: > - If the ative minion plays BtW before he chooses his strike the oposing minion will have to burn his blood before he can choose he's strike? > It is possible. > Azog wrote: > - Can the oposing minion play BtW before the ative minion selects his strike forcing the ative minion to burn blood before he is able to choose his strike? > It is possible. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > After range is established, the impulse passes from acting to non acting methuselah, juat as in any instance of cards and sequences. Same window as grapple is played, Btw is. > The problem with this line of thought is that combat defaults to close. So you are at close range when combat starts, during pre-range step even. (This is important in some outside the hourglass shenanigans) Since blood to water doesn't specify the step its played at, I assume it can be played in prerange. Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

> Bloodartist wrote: > Since blood to water doesn't specify the step its played at, I assume it can be played in prerange. > It must be played after the "determine range" step. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Bloodartist wrote: > The problem with this line of thought is that combat defaults to close. So you are at close range when combat starts, during pre-range step even. (This is important in some outside the hourglass shenanigans) > Not quite. You can't play cards that require a specific range to be played until you have moved after the "determine range" step. The reason why you can play a Pulled Fangs if the opposing vampire goes to torpor is that you move to the end of round step when the opposing vampire goes to torpor which is after the determine range step, and default range is close range so you fulfill the Pulled Fangs condition. groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/j98aqFIFjnE/LA3AWx8b31cJ Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Dear all, > Ankha wrote: > > > Bloodartist wrote: > > The problem with this line of thought is that combat defaults to close. So you are at close range when combat starts, during pre-range step even. (This is important in some outside the hourglass shenanigans) > > > Not quite. You can't play cards that require a specific range to be played until you have moved after the "determine range" step. > May I add a question on that specific part please? I would be interested in the use of an effect like Cailean before "range is determined". Part A Would it allow a vampire to play Blood to Water and later in the same step Torn Signpost? (I hope not) Would it close the window to play Torn Sign Post? (I hope not) Part B Would it allow the next sequence? 1- Outside the Hourglass (superior temporis with no damage prevention) 2- Any kind of effect that can set the range to close. 3- Any kind of effect that end combat before range is chosen 4- Disarm Card Text Name: Cailean (Setting the range to close) Cardtype: Vampire Sabbat Archbishop of Detroit: Each round of combat, before range is determined, Cailean can set the range for that round. If he does so, skip the Determine Range step for that round. Name: Charge of the Buffalo (Setting the range to close) Cardtype: Action [spi] Enter combat with a minion. Set the range for the first round of that combat to close, and this acting vampire's initial strike during that round is strike: hand strike at +1 damage. Name: Omael Kuman (Setting the range to close) Cardtype: Retainer The employer can burn 1 blood to set the range for the round before range is determined during the first round of combat. Torn Signpost or any card that should be played in the same window Name: Torn Signpost Only usable before range is determined. Name: Alpha Glint (Ending the combat) Cardtype: Combat Not usable in combat with an ally or an older vampire. [ANI][FOR] Only usable before range is determined. Combat ends. Name: Illusions of the Kindred (Ending the combat) Cardtype: Combat Only usable before range is determined. [chi] Combat ends. (...) Name: Disarm (At end of combat + close range required) Cardtype: Combat [pot] Only usable at close range at the end of a round of combat in which this vampire successfully inflicted more damage than the opposing vampire. Not usable by a vampire being burned or going into torpor. Put this card on the opposing vampire and send that vampire into torpor. The vampire with this card has -1 strength. He or she may burn this card by burning 3 blood. A vampire can have only one Disarm. Thanks in advance, Regards, Rémi. I am Rémi Cavaillé (), Barcelona (Spain). I was the Prince of Lyon (France) around 2003. I am now Official Judge and the 5th Prince of Barcelona. Enjoy VTES, Marvel Champions, L5R and more gaming activities in Khan Jugar: sites.google.com/view/khanjugar/

Even though range is set (and cannot be set again, and no maneuvers are allowed) you can still play pre-maneuvers like Torn Signpost. Pretty sure you could play OTH and Disarm in your scenario too. You would have to play Torn Signpost before range is set, then wait to play Blood to Water until all pre-maneuvers are played. Realizing the pre-maneuver window is still there (even though you cannot use maneuvers after it) helps to understand all of these I think.

Hi, Do you mean that even if a setting the range effect has resolved, the range is not trully set before the end of the Pre-Maneuver effect window? Regards, Rémi. I am Rémi Cavaillé (), Barcelona (Spain). I was the Prince of Lyon (France) around 2003. I am now Official Judge and the 5th Prince of Barcelona. Enjoy VTES, Marvel Champions, L5R and more gaming activities in Khan Jugar: sites.google.com/view/khanjugar/

In a manner of speaking, yes. Even though a set-range effect is queued, and will kick in and skip maneuvers, you still have a pre-range step first. Once both players have finished playing pre-range cards, maneuvers are skipped and range is set.

I think the range is set as soon as the effect setting it is done. You still get to play pre-maneuver cards before the range step is skipped, but the range setting is not "delayed". Example to this effect: - A blocks with Sniper Rifle and sets the range to long - A plays Outside the Hourglass at superior - Maneuver step is skipped - A plays Majesty and combat ends - A cannot play Disarm - Outside the Hourglass damage was at long range. See groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/j98aqFIFjnE/m/6yTbvCofUiIJ for a more detailed discussion. Excerpt: > > If Fear of the Void Below (dai/DAI) would've been played earlier, > > would Outside the Hourglass then trigger the Improvised Flamethrower? > Yes. (And Disarm would not be playable, since the range is long) > > > If range is set as a pre. Is it fair to say, "range has been > > determined"? > No. > > > Or do you have to wait for the Determine Range Step to be passed, > > whither skipped or not. > You finish "before range stuff" before moving on. > > > If range has been determined to be close as a result of a pre, can you > > play Immortal Prapple(and the like) in the pre-range step? > No. >

> lip wrote: > I think the range is set as soon as the effect setting it is done. You still get to play pre-maneuver cards before the range step is skipped, but the range setting is not "delayed". > Indeed. That's what LSJ wrote (same link): "It sets range when played. And you still remain in the "before range" window until everyone passes. Then you skip the determine range window." Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Hi, So if I play superior Immortal Grapple during round 1. I can play Blood to Water during the "before range is chosen" window. I am now almost sure about that ! Thanks in advance, Regards. Rémi. I am Rémi Cavaillé (), Barcelona (Spain). I was the Prince of Lyon (France) around 2003. I am now Official Judge and the 5th Prince of Barcelona. Enjoy VTES, Marvel Champions, L5R and more gaming activities in Khan Jugar: sites.google.com/view/khanjugar/

> Rémi wrote: > Hi, > > So if I play superior Immortal Grapple during round 1. > I can play Blood to Water during the "before range is chosen" window. I am now almost sure about that ! > > Thanks in advance, > Regards. > Rémi. > Yes, you can. Edit: I misunderstood the questions You could do this with any pre-maneuver, but never with BtW. Range must be set first, and that cannot happen until pre-maneuvers are handled. Even if pre-determined by IG.

> Snodig wrote: > > > Rémi wrote: > > Hi, > > > > So if I play superior Immortal Grapple during round 1. > > I can play Blood to Water during the "before range is chosen" window. I am now almost sure about that ! > > > > Thanks in advance, > > Regards. > > Rémi. > > > Yes, you can. > I thought some link above stated that immortal grapple couldn't be played in the before range phase ? (and so it would be the same for BtW ?)

> Timo wrote: > > > Snodig wrote: > > > > > Rémi wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > So if I play superior Immortal Grapple during round 1. > > > I can play Blood to Water during the "before range is chosen" window. I am now almost sure about that ! > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance, > > > Regards. > > > Rémi. > > > > > Yes, you can. > > > I thought some link above stated that immortal grapple couldn't be played in the before range phase ? (and so it would be the same for BtW ?) > immortal grapple is not played before range phase,there say how efect from round 1 IG take efect in round 2 before range to set range to close.

> Timo wrote: > > > Snodig wrote: > > > > > Rémi wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > So if I play superior Immortal Grapple during round 1. > > > I can play Blood to Water during the "before range is chosen" window. I am now almost sure about that ! > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance, > > > Regards. > > > Rémi. > > > > > Yes, you can. > > > I thought some link above stated that immortal grapple couldn't be played in the before range phase ? (and so it would be the same for BtW ?) > As Igor points out, Immortal Grapple is played after range is set, before strikes are chosen. The question was "can I play a pre-maneuver in round two, if immortal grapple was played in round one and the range is automatically set (by IG)?". And yes, you can. You can also do the same if range is set by Sniper Rifle, or any other effect that skips the maneuver step.

> LSJ wrote: > > > > If range has been determined to be close as a result of a pre, can you > > play Immortal Prapple(and the like) in the pre-range step? > > No. > This seems quite explicit to me. Never mind that the range is set to close, you can't play an IG in pre-range. So accordingly, I think that blood to Water works the same and can't be played in the pre-range windows no matter what.

> Timo wrote: > > > LSJ wrote: > > > > > > If range has been determined to be close as a result of a pre, can you > > > play Immortal Prapple(and the like) in the pre-range step? > > > > No. > > > This seems quite explicit to me. > > Never mind that the range is set to close, you can't play an IG in pre-range. > > So accordingly, I think that blood to Water works the same and can't be played in the pre-range windows no matter what. > This is correct, you would need to wait until after pre-range to play IG. Did I misunderstand what I said yes to earlier?

> Snodig wrote: > > > Rémi wrote: > > Hi, > > > > So if I play superior Immortal Grapple during round 1. > > I can play Blood to Water during the "before range is chosen" window. I am now almost sure about that ! > > > > Thanks in advance, > > Regards. > > Rémi. > > > Yes, you can. > if I understand correctly Rémi question, he wanted to know if the following situation was legal : Round 1 play IG Press Round 2, range is automatically close Play BtW as a before range. And I am pretty sure it is an illegal play.

> self wrote: > > > Timo wrote: > > if I understand correctly Rémi question, he wanted to know if the following situation was legal : > > Round 1 play IG > > Press > > Round 2, range is automatically close > > Play BtW as a before range. > > > > And I am pretty sure it is an illegal play. > > > > Ankha wrote: > > > > > Azog wrote: > > > When can Blood to Water be played and when does the oposite minion burns the blood? > > > > > > > > LSJ: "It can be played any time after range is determined and before > > strikes resolve, and only if the range is close." > > groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/JUnIGIrb3pw/EOo-cGykdmYJ > > > > The effect is immediate (either burning blood or burning the ally). > > > > > Azog wrote: > > > 1st - Blood to Water states that it can only be used at close range and must be used before strike resolution so, it must be played during the strike selection step. > > > > > > > > No, it can be played at other moments: > > > > www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/78713-blood-of-water-timing-before-strike-resolution#100237 > > > > > Azog wrote: > > > - If the [acting] minion plays [Blood to Water] before he chooses his strike the opposing minion will have to burn his blood before he can choose he's strike? > > > > > > > > It is possible. > > > > > Azog wrote: > > > - Can the opposing minion play [Blood to Water] before the [acting] minion selects his strike forcing the [acting] minion to burn blood before he is able to choose his strike? > > > > > > > > It is possible. > > OK, I see nothing here that says that you can play BtW as a before range. If I look closely in the googlegroups threads quoted here, the only thing that say that is : > LSJ wrote: > It can be played any time after range is determined and before > strikes resolve, and only if the range is close. > > It cannot be played before range is determined (that is, it can > only be played if range is set to close). > The problem I have with this is the fact that elsewhere it is stated quite clearly (I think) : > LSJ wrote: > > If range has been determined to be close as a result of a pre, can you > > play Immortal Prapple(and the like) in the pre-range step? > > No. > So which ruling should we follow ?

Even though there is text in the brackets saying, that BtW can only be played if range is set to close, the sentence before states explicitly, that you can't play it before range is determined. So you have to wait until the "before range is determined" window is closed. From the LSJ quoted earlier in this topic: > If range is set as a pre. Is it fair to say, "range has been > determined"? No. > Or do you have to wait for the Determine Range Step to be passed, > whither skipped or not. You finish "before range stuff" before moving on. So ecen though range is set, it is not yet determined, since you are in the before range is determined step. This is weird I think, but that's what it is. Prince of Bonn, Germany

> Yomyael wrote: > Even though there is text in the brackets saying, that BtW can only be played if range is set to close, the sentence before states explicitly, that you can't play it before range is determined. So you have to wait until the "before range is determined" window is closed. > > From the LSJ quoted earlier in this topic: > > > If range is set as a pre. Is it fair to say, "range has been > > determined"? > No. > > > Or do you have to wait for the Determine Range Step to be passed, > > whither skipped or not. > You finish "before range stuff" before moving on. > > So ecen though range is set, it is not yet determined, since you are in the before range is determined step. This is weird I think, but that's what it is. > I see it as you say but I think several people in this thread have interpreted it differently.

I’ve messed up in this thread. I thought the question was more general, and forgot to actually check the text on Blood to Water. It is played after pre-maneuvers. I’m really sorry for the confusion! It’s as yomyael says.

> Rémi wrote: > So if I play superior Immortal Grapple during round 1. > I can play Blood to Water during the "before range is chosen" window. > No. > Timo wrote: > I thought some link above stated that immortal grapple couldn't be played in the before range phase ? (and so it would be the same for BtW ?) > Correct. > Snodig wrote: > As Igor points out, Immortal Grapple is played after range is set, before strikes are chosen. > Correct. > Snodig wrote: > The question was "can I play a pre-maneuver in round two, if immortal grapple was played in round one and the range is automatically set (by IG)?". > And yes, you can. You can also do the same if range is set by Sniper Rifle, or any other effect that skips the maneuver step. > No, the question was: "since the range is set in round 2, can I play BtW in the pre-maneuver step". The answer is: no. > Timo wrote: > > > LSJ wrote: > > > > > > If range has been determined to be close as a result of a pre, can you > > > play Immortal Prapple(and the like) in the pre-range step? > > > > No. > > > This seems quite explicit to me. > > Never mind that the range is set to close, you can't play an IG in pre-range. > > So accordingly, I think that blood to Water works the same and can't be played in the pre-range windows no matter what. > Correct. > Timo wrote: > if I understand correctly Rémi question, he wanted to know if the following situation was legal : > Round 1 play IG > Press > Round 2, range is automatically close > Play BtW as a before range. > > And I am pretty sure it is an illegal play. > It's illegal. To sum it up: if an effect sets the range and causes the "determine range" step to be skipped, the range is not determined until after the "pre-maneuver" step. Therefore, cards such as Immortal Grapple or Blood to Water that must be played at a given range cannot be played during the "pre-maneuver" step. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Thanks for all the details. Feel free to tell me to create a new thread if needed. "To sum it up: if an effect sets the range and causes the "determine range" step to be skipped, the range is not determined until after the "pre-maneuver" step. Therefore, cards such as Immortal Grapple or Blood to Water that must be played at a given range cannot be played during the "pre-maneuver" step." In this case... - Before the Range is determined : Outside the Hourglass (deal 2 damage to opposing minion) - Before the Range is determined : Cailean special ability to set the range to close range. - Before the Range is determined : Illusions of the Kindred I understand that the minion that played Outside the Hourglass cannot play Disarm to the opposing minion since "determine range step" didn't pass before combat ends. I had no time to be skipped by Cailean's special ability. Card Text : Name: Outside the Hourglass Cardtype: Combat [TEM] Only usable before range is determined. Inflict 2 damage on the opposing minion. A vampire can play only one Outside the Hourglass at superior each round. Name: Cailean Cardtype: Vampire Sabbat Archbishop of Detroit: Each round of combat, before range is determined, Cailean can set the range for that round. If he does so, skip the Determine Range step for that round. Name: Illusions of the Kindred Cardtype: Combat Only usable before range is determined. [chi] Combat ends. (...) Regards, Rémi. I am Rémi Cavaillé (), Barcelona (Spain). I was the Prince of Lyon (France) around 2003. I am now Official Judge and the 5th Prince of Barcelona. Enjoy VTES, Marvel Champions, L5R and more gaming activities in Khan Jugar: sites.google.com/view/khanjugar/