So if I play Mirror Walk at superior "if this action is blocked, the action ends (with no combat)." and they still block, may they play Obedience to remain untapped?
Obedience reads "Only usable when this reacting vampire is about to enter combat with an acting younger vampire."
"action ends" immediately closes all windows. As soon as the effect of Mirror Walk triggers, no more reactions or action modifiers can be played, so no Obedience.
So that means Lucas Halton could not use his ability? "Once each turn, when Lucas blocks an action, he may burn a blood instead of tapping for the successful block (before combat occurs)."
Obedience = No.
"Only playable when this reacting vampire is about to enter combat with an acting younger vampire."
Mirror Walk triggers before you would ever enter the combat. Since Obedience does not trigger when the block is successful or would be successful, the action is over before Obedience can be played.
IANPB but...
Lucas Halton = Yes
Mirror walk says "If this action IS blocked." Lucas says "when Lucas blocks an action". Both trigger from the same condition, therefore both effects are usable. I would also expect that Cats Guidance would be playable and any other effect asking "is blocked".
I would expect that Mirror Walk would not stop the effects/playability of:
Bloodstorm of Chorazin
Cats Guidance
Darksight
Diabolic Lure
Extortion
Forced Vigilance @[for]
Internal Recursion
Melange
Mental Maze
Minor Irritation
Revelation of Despair
Shattered Mirror
Undying Thirst
Voice of Madness
@Pascal:
How would Mirror Walk and Set's Call work? (One ends the action at the block, the other insists it is successful)
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> IANPB but...
> Lucas Halton = Yes
> Mirror walk says "If this action IS blocked." Lucas says "when Lucas blocks an action". Both trigger from the same condition, therefore both effects are usable. I would also expect that Cats Guidance would be playable and any other effect asking "is blocked".
>
Incorrect.
The acting Methuselah declares that they are blocked (that is, stealth is beaten by intercept). At this point, they have the opportunity to play Change of Target (or similar effects), which goes off:
Only usable when this acting minion is blocked (play before combat, if any).
Which is the same timing as Mirror Walk:
if this action is blocked
After passing, the blocking Methuselah then has the opportunity to use effects that come in then.
On the specific question of Mirror Walk and Cats Guidance:
[LSJ 20090312]
>
> LSJ wrote:
> > But after i play MW, i can still play Freak Drive and the blocking
> > minion's controler can always play Forced Vigilance or Cats' Guidance,
> > right?
>
> No. None of those can be played after the action ends.
> No action modifiers or reactions can be played after the action ends.
>
(Note that "I play MW" is apparently being used as short-hand for "the action ends because of the MW I play". Which might be immediately, since you might be facing +97 intercept and play Mirror Walk to effectively make the action end immediately.)
On the more general point:
[LSJ 20090513] is a discussion between LSJ and Pascal, and gets quite technical.
Essentially, it boils down to the acting Methuselah being able to play "is blocked" effects, then the reacting Methuselah being able to do the same. And this means that - inter alia - Change of Target beats Mental Maze. (Please be careful before cherry-picking from this discussion, because it is quite involved.)
> LSJ wrote:
> > Acting minion is blocked. This is how I think things are sequenced.
> > a1 - Acting minion can play cards or use effects as he is blocked:
> > Change of Target, Aching beauty, use the Slave rule, ..
>
> when a block is successful, yes.
>
> > a2 - Reacting minion can play cards as he blocks: Minor Irritation,
> > burn acting's blood to the Banshee Ironwail, Voice of Madness, Mental
> > Maze,
>
> Yes.
>
And Mental Maze's timing is:
Only usable when this vampire successfully blocks an ally or a younger vampire (play before combat, if any).
Which would seem to be in the same window as:
when Lucas blocks an action, he may burn a blood instead of tapping for the successful block (before combat occurs).
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> How would Mirror Walk and Set's Call work? (One ends the action at the block, the other insists it is successful)
>
Moot. The Set's Call can't be played.
Only usable when this vampire successfully blocks an employ retainer action (play before combat).
Lucas Halton is not a reaction but an effect that triggers off a condition.
As usual, it often seems that my biggest bones of contention with all of LSJs rulings come down to premises and not subsequent logic.
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> Lucas Halton is not a reaction but an effect that triggers off a condition.
>
Not quite.
Lucas' special is a "Do X to do Y" effect that has a restricted timing ("when").
It's not the same as a "When X, Y happens" effect (which is not "used" by a player and would automatically "trigger" as you say).
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Anyway, I think Lucas could use his special replacement effect, as it doesn't require an action going on.
"Once each turn, when Lucas blocks an action, he may burn a blood instead of tapping for the successful block (before combat occurs)."
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
> Anyway, I think Lucas could use his special replacement effect, as it doesn't require an action going on.
>
> "Once each turn, when Lucas blocks an action, he may burn a blood instead of tapping for the successful block (before combat occurs)."
>
"before combat occurs" is still during the action. Once the action has ended, you're no longer in the "before combat occurs" window.
(To skip the next round of questions: no, brackets don't always indicate reminder text.)
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> Lucas Halton is not a reaction but an effect that triggers off a condition.
>
So's Aching Beauty, which is also given as an example of an effect in "a1".
It's also implied in [LSJ 20090731] that Change of Target can pre-empt the Aching Beauty pool damage. (Also a conversation with Pascal.)
>
> LSJ wrote:
> > v/ My Helena adv with Aching Beauty attempts a bleed action. My prey
> > on 1 pool attempts to block. I decline to play stealth, can I play
> > Change of Target on this action?
> > Aching Beauty
> > Put this card on a Toreador. If this Toreador is blocked, the
> > controller of the blocking minion burns 1 pool (before combat occurs,
> > if any).
>
> Yes.
>
I would have expected "Yes (but still takes the pool damage)" if it went any other way.
(Note that the precise timing of Obedience-like effects has caused some ructions over time, in particular when cards got reworded, so earlier rulings may differ.)
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
>
> > Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> > Lucas Halton is not a reaction but an effect that triggers off a condition.
> >
> So's Aching Beauty, which is also given as an example of an effect in "a1".
>
> It's also implied in [LSJ 20090731] that Change of Target can pre-empt the Aching Beauty pool damage. (Also a conversation with Pascal.)
> >
> > LSJ wrote:
> > > v/ My Helena adv with Aching Beauty attempts a bleed action. My prey
> > > on 1 pool attempts to block. I decline to play stealth, can I play
> > > Change of Target on this action?
> > > Aching Beauty
> > > Put this card on a Toreador. If this Toreador is blocked, the
> > > controller of the blocking minion burns 1 pool (before combat occurs,
> > > if any).
> >
> > Yes.
> >
> I would have expected "Yes (but still takes the pool damage)" if it went any other way.
>
No, per your previous link:
> > Your answer sounds like there is no such division - as if you skipped
> > from a2 to b2. Let me ask this question, it will help me get things
> > clear:
> > If my acting Giovanni is blocked by a Camarilla vampire, can I play
> > Promise of 1528 without burning 1 blood to the blocking vampire's
> > Banshee Ironwail?
> You could play it before burning the blood. But you'd still burn the blood (just
> like the blocking Camarilla vampire would still tap).
>
So even if you play Change of Target, you still have the Aching Beauty effect to resolve. You can order them the way you want, though.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> > Anyway, I think Lucas could use his special replacement effect, as it doesn't require an action going on.
> >
> > "Once each turn, when Lucas blocks an action, he may burn a blood instead of tapping for the successful block (before combat occurs)."
> >
> "before combat occurs" is still during the action. Once the action has ended, you're no longer in the "before combat occurs" window.
>
> (To skip the next round of questions: no, brackets don't always indicate reminder text.)
>
I think you give it too much importance, as the "before combat occurs" has no real meaning here. It would otherwise mean that "tapping for a successful block" happens "before combat occurs", which is not the case (they are simultaneous per the Obedience ruling).
The replacement effet is what matters here: "instead of tapping".
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
> I think you give it too much importance, as the "before combat occurs" has no real meaning here. It would otherwise mean that "tapping for a successful block" happens "before combat occurs", which is not the case (they are simultaneous per the Obedience ruling).
>
Why? It just says when he has the option to burn the blood - before combat occurs. After the action, we're no longer in that window to do that.
> Ankha wrote:
> No, per your previous link:
>
> > > Your answer sounds like there is no such division - as if you skipped
> > > from a2 to b2. Let me ask this question, it will help me get things
> > > clear:
> > > If my acting Giovanni is blocked by a Camarilla vampire, can I play
> > > Promise of 1528 without burning 1 blood to the blocking vampire's
> > > Banshee Ironwail?
> > You could play it before burning the blood. But you'd still burn the blood (just
> > like the blocking Camarilla vampire would still tap).
> >
> So even if you play Change of Target, you still have the Aching Beauty effect to resolve. You can order them the way you want, though.
>
A difference here is that Banshee Ironwail isn't phrased as an optional effect, but Lucas is - much like optionally playing a card in the same timing window is an optional effect. So it's potentially an effect that must be ordered into the sequence (akin to a pre-existing Weather Control vs combat ends).
this is the closest comparison I can find...
groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/PyCEvjx5Oq8/e036rmxAzyMJ
>
> > Can she untap (using Sowing Dissension's ability) before Mirror Walk
> > ends the action ?
>
> No. When it is blocked, the action ends.
>
though it's not exactly the same, but it suggests an existing optional effect comes in too late after mirror walk resolves, even if during the same window. so I would say Lucas's ability can not be used here.
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
>
> > Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> > Lucas Halton is not a reaction but an effect that triggers off a condition.
> >
> So's Aching Beauty, which is also given as an example of an effect in "a1".
>
> It's also implied in [LSJ 20090731] that Change of Target can pre-empt the Aching Beauty pool damage. (Also a conversation with Pascal.)
> >
> > LSJ wrote:
> > > v/ My Helena adv with Aching Beauty attempts a bleed action. My prey
> > > on 1 pool attempts to block. I decline to play stealth, can I play
> > > Change of Target on this action?
> > > Aching Beauty
> > > Put this card on a Toreador. If this Toreador is blocked, the
> > > controller of the blocking minion burns 1 pool (before combat occurs,
> > > if any).
> >
> > Yes.
> >
> I would have expected "Yes (but still takes the pool damage)" if it went any other way.
>
you're taking this particular ruling very much out of context! it's discussing the hypothetical effects of Last Stand on the action structure. change of target never pre-empts aching beauty. however, I'm not entirely sure if mirror walk does or not, since nobody ever asked LSJ about that.
> Not only was the block declared, but it was successful.
> Change of Target can only be played after a successful block.
> By that time, the blocker's controller will have lost a pool
> to Aching Beauty, and Change of Target offers no compensation
> for that.
>
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> > I think you give it too much importance, as the "before combat occurs" has no real meaning here. It would otherwise mean that "tapping for a successful block" happens "before combat occurs", which is not the case (they are simultaneous per the Obedience ruling).
> >
> Why? It just says when he has the option to burn the blood - before combat occurs. After the action, we're no longer in that window to do that.
>
I disagree.
The effect is a replacement effect: "instead of". So it's used when the effect that can be replaced happens, that is when he would be tapped.
The "before combat occurs" part is a bit weird since it's at best wrong, since you don't tap before combat occurs, but at the same time.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> > I think you give it too much importance, as the "before combat occurs" has no real meaning here. It would otherwise mean that "tapping for a successful block" happens "before combat occurs", which is not the case (they are simultaneous per the Obedience ruling).
> >
> Why? It just says when he has the option to burn the blood - before combat occurs. After the action, we're no longer in that window to do that.
>
Where is the timing window for a non-existent combat? It has not occurred, so it could be before or after the combat.
Lets put Lucas Halton's text in here... in full.
Lucas Halton
Clan: Tremere (group 3)
Capacity: 10
Disciplines: AUS CEL DOM THA qui
Camarilla Prince of Houston: Once each turn, when Lucas blocks an action, he may burn a blood instead of tapping for the successful block (before combat occurs).
The conditions on Lucas' ability are: During X (Once each turn), if Condition A (Lucas blocks an action), then Cost to do Y.
If Lucas has blocked (which is required by the Change of Target and Mirror Walk) then he has met the condition. If his ability has not been used before this turn, then he meets the "During X Do Y" structure. There seems to be no reason why he could not burn a blood intead of tapping for the successful block, since the text on Mirror Walk could not trigger without Lucas meeting the requirements of his effect.
@James:
How would Freak Drive@[FOR] and Mirror Walk work then? If the Mirror Walk ends as soon as the block occurs and stops any further part of the action, then Freak Drive @ [FOR] is unplayable after Mirror Walk. Is this the case based on current rulings?
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> Freak Drive @ [FOR] is unplayable after Mirror Walk. Is this the case based on current rulings?
>
Correct; Freakdrive is not playable after a blocked action when Mirror Walk has been played at superior — this is one of the downsides of Mirror Walk and why at times it can be better to play it at inferior. The same applies to Kiss of Ra (which also ends the action).
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> Ankha wrote:
>
> > jamesatzephyr wrote:
> >
> > > Ankha wrote:
> > > I think you give it too much importance, as the "before combat occurs" has no real meaning here. It would otherwise mean that "tapping for a successful block" happens "before combat occurs", which is not the case (they are simultaneous per the Obedience ruling).
> > >
> > >
> > Why? It just says when he has the option to burn the blood - before combat occurs. After the action, we're no longer in that window to do that.
> >
> I disagree.
> The effect is a replacement effect: "instead of". So it's used when the effect that can be replaced happens, that is when he would be tapped.
> The "before combat occurs" part is a bit weird since it's at best wrong, since you don't tap before combat occurs, but at the same time.
>
i'm inclined to agree with Ankha here - as the effect that is triggering Lucas is tapping for successful block so it should be :
Vamp A does stuff
Lucas tries to get in way
Vamp A plays mirror walk
Lucas plays intercept
Vamp A says ok you sucessfully block
Lucas would now tap but uses ability.
Action Ends due to Mirror Walk
otherwise you'd have the mirror walk ending the action prior to Lucas tapping - there should be a trigger window from the tap effect prior to action ending [but before other pre-combat effects].
So Mental Maze can be played on Mirror Walk?
Only usable when this vampire successfully blocks an ally or a younger vampire (play before combat, if any).
End the action (with no combat). If this blocking minion is a Follower of Set, this card costs 1 less blood.
As above, and do not tap this blocking vampire.
Mental Maze is played before tapping for the block.
> Non-existant user wrote:
> So Mental Maze can be played on Mirror Walk?
>
> Only usable when this vampire successfully blocks an ally or a younger vampire (play before combat, if any).
> End the action (with no combat). If this blocking minion is a Follower of Set, this card costs 1 less blood.
> As above, and do not tap this blocking vampire.
>
> Mental Maze is played before tapping for the block.
>
It doesn't work because in order to play the card:
- you must have priority
- there must be an action running (it's a reaction card, you can't play it if there's no action)
Since the acting player will have priority first and end the action, you can't play a reaction card after him.
Lucas is different since it's a replacement effect and it's not a reaction card.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
maybe that's something that could be cleaned up a bit timing wise as it's not obvious from the rules how that timing works in terms of cards reactions versus 'reaction' when it comes to action end - but it'd be easy to do the stages in the blocking section of the ruelbook
i have few more questions for you. it was mentioned sooner in this thread, but it's still not completely clear (at least not for me)
Vamp A plays action
Vamp B attempt to block
Vamp A plays MW
Vamp B gets intercept - source may matter (Melange sup)
action is blocked
option 1
A does use text of MW - all cleared above
option 2
A does want to use slave option of his other minion
is this possible? without MW card text of action end kicking in?
option 3
A declares action blocked and then play Change of target and using it's action end effect instead of action end effect from MW. is this possible?
option 4
A declared action blocked uses MW special text to cancel combat and then after canceled combat tries to use special of Ambulance?
Ambulance
Type: Equipment
Cost: 1 pool
Vehicle.
After a combat between this acting minion and a blocking minion, you may tap the Ambulance to continue the action as if unblocked. If the action is blocked again, burn this card. This minion may tap the Ambulance to attempt to burn an incapacitated imbued as a +1 stealth action. A minion may have only one vehicle.
my last question is little bit out of this discussion, but it's related to same phase of game;
A plays action
B block
A declares action blocked and want to use his slave minion
G as a slave of A enters combat with B
may B play cards at this point? there are some other cards that are related to before/after combat phase and acting minion. it's clear for fast reaction and hiddne lurker as those require acting minion in combat, but there are some cards that does not require combat to occur with acting minion actually, see cards extracted below:
Hard Case
Type: Reaction
Requires: Fortitude
Cost: 1 blood
Only usable when this vampire successfully blocks an ally or younger vampire.
[for] Cancel the resulting combat.
[FOR] As above, and destroy a weapon or vehicle on the acting minion.
possibly only inferior version might be played as superior targets acting minion.
Diabolic Lure
Type: Reaction
Requires: Daimoinon/Auspex
[aus] Reduce a bleed against you by 1.
[dai] Requires an infernal vampire. Only usable when this vampire successfully blocks. Put 4 pact counters on the acting minion. If the number of pact counters equals or exceeds his or her capacity or cost, burn them to make him or her infernal.
[DAI] As [dai] above, and the acting minion's controller burns 1 pool.
targets acting minion, while entering combat with slave???
Type: Reaction
Requires: Temporis/Presence
Cost: 1 blood
Only usable by a vampire who successfully blocks.
This blocking vampire can end combat as a strike during the resulting combat. If he or she does so and the acting minion is an ally or a younger vampire, this blocking vampire untaps.
[tem] This blocking minion sets the range for the first round of the resulting combat. Skip the determine range step for that round.
[TEM] The acting minion doesn't untap during his or her next untap phase.
pre and tem versions might apply. TEM targets acting minion...
Extortion
Type: Reaction
Requires: Serpentis
Cost: 1 blood
Only usable when this vampire successfully blocks (play after combat, if any). Usable by a tapped vampire.
[ser] Put this card on the acting minion. The minion with this card burns an additional blood to untap during his or her untap phase. A Methuselah can burn the Edge to burn all Extortion cards he or she has.
[SER] The acting minion's controller takes control of this card (put this card in play). The controller of this card burns 1 pool during his or her untap phase. He or she can burn the Edge to burn all Extortion cards he or she has.
ser is questionable. SER targets minion controller instead of minion - this does not change with slave rule use, so it might be still valid
there might be some other cards. i found these only at the top of my head.
EDIT: clarification for questions and typo corrections.
assholepopulation.com/
Did u saw one today?
> Asnek wrote:
> Vamp A plays action
> Vamp B attempt to block
> Vamp A plays MW
> Vamp B gets intercept - source may matter (Melange sup)
> action is blocked
>
> option 1
> A does use text of MW - all cleared above
>
fine.
> Asnek wrote:
> option 2
> A does want to use slave option of his other minion
> is this possible? without MW card text of action end kicking in?
>
No.
Rulebook: "Also, if a member of the specified clan controlled by the same Methuselah is blocked, the controller can tap the slave to cancel the combat and to untap the acting vampire and have the slave enter combat with the blocking minion instead."
Action ends when the action is blocked (MW's card text).
See also : groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/PyCEvjx5Oq8/e036rmxAzyMJ
> Asnek wrote:
> option 3
> A declares action blocked and then play Change of target and using it's action end effect instead of action end effect from MW. is this possible?
>
No, same reason.
> Asnek wrote:
> option 4
> A declared action blocked uses MW special text to cancel combat and then after canceled combat tries to use special of Ambulance?
> Ambulance
> Type: Equipment
> Cost: 1 pool
> Vehicle.
> After a combat between this acting minion and a blocking minion, you may tap the Ambulance to continue the action as if unblocked. If the action is blocked again, burn this card. This minion may tap the Ambulance to attempt to burn an incapacitated imbued as a +1 stealth action. A minion may have only one vehicle.
>
No, action is ended.
> Asnek wrote:
> my last question is little bit out of this discussion, but it's related to same phase of game;
> A plays action
> B block
> A declares action blocked and want to use his slave minion
> G as a slave of A enters combat with B
>
> may B play cards at this point? there are some other cards that are related to before/after combat phase and acting minion. it's clear for fast reaction and hiddne lurker as those require acting minion in combat, but there are some cards that does not require combat to occur with acting minion actually, see cards extracted below:
> Hard Case
> Type: Reaction
> Requires: Fortitude
> Cost: 1 blood
> Only usable when this vampire successfully blocks an ally or younger vampire.
> [for] Cancel the resulting combat.
> [FOR] As above, and destroy a weapon or vehicle on the acting minion.
>
You can't use Hard Case, because the combat is not resulting from the block (that combat has been cancelled) but from the Slave ability.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > Asnek wrote:
> > my last question is little bit out of this discussion, but it's related to same phase of game;
> > A plays action
> > B block
> > A declares action blocked and want to use his slave minion
> > G as a slave of A enters combat with B
> >
> > may B play cards at this point? there are some other cards that are related to before/after combat phase and acting minion. it's clear for fast reaction and hiddne lurker as those require acting minion in combat, but there are some cards that does not require combat to occur with acting minion actually, see cards extracted below:
> > Hard Case
> > Type: Reaction
> > Requires: Fortitude
> > Cost: 1 blood
> > Only usable when this vampire successfully blocks an ally or younger vampire.
> > [for] Cancel the resulting combat.
> > [FOR] As above, and destroy a weapon or vehicle on the acting minion.
> >
> You can't use Hard Case, because the combat is not resulting from the block (that combat has been cancelled) but from the Slave ability.
>
thanks for clarification for hard case. same will go for few of the list as well as they refer to resulting combat
but what about those other cards? for example diabolic lure and extortion really interest me as i have deck build around these two right now (cybele block).
for diabolic lure per card text i believe that you can play it after you have blocked, but i'm not sure if you get a impulse to play it after action is declared blocked or acting vampires controller is first one to use his slave option. is there technically difference between phases: action blocked/resulting combat is about to start?
extortion as well does not contain magic words resulting combat so i'm not sure again. slave option is just canceling combat, but is acting vampire still considered acting for purposes of extortion? what about SER version that target's controller of acting minion - controler did not change at all only minion in combat?
assholepopulation.com/
Did u saw one today?
> Asnek wrote:
> for diabolic lure per card text i believe that you can play it after you have blocked, but i'm not sure if you get a impulse to play it after action is declared blocked or acting vampires controller is first one to use his slave option.
>
Linked earlier in the thread, the acting vampire gets the first opportunity to use "is blocked" effects, including invoking the slave rule.
[LSJ 20090513]
>
> LSJ wrote:
> > Acting minion is blocked. This is how I think things are sequenced.
> > a1 - Acting minion can play cards or use effects as he is blocked:
> > Change of Target, Aching beauty, use the Slave rule, ..
>
> when a block is successful, yes.
>
> > a2 - Reacting minion can play cards as he blocks: Minor Irritation,
> > burn acting's blood to the Banshee Ironwail, Voice of Madness, Mental
> > Maze,
>
> Yes.
>
However, invoking the Slave rule doesn't preclude playing other "as blocked" effects before the combat is entered. (Using an effect that ends the action does precluding playing Diabolic Lure.)
[LSJ 20080904]
>
> LSJ wrote:
> > So I think the correct sequence is:
> > 1) Tremere attempts to recruit a retainer.
> > 2) Ser vamp blocks.
> > 3) Tremere's Meth chooses to use Slave mechanic or not.
> > 4) Set's Call is played either way. Combat does not occur either way,
> > due to card text on Set's Call.
> >
> > Correct?
>
> Correct.
>
Set's Call text:
Only usable when this vampire successfully blocks an employ retainer action (play before combat).
> Asnek wrote:
> is there technically difference between phases: action blocked/resulting combat is about to start?
>
Not according to [LSJ 20090513] - the a1/a2 thing cited above. It continues to this bit:
> LSJ wrote:
> > a1& a2 only happen when there is an acting minion blocked.
> >
> > At this point, minions are about to enter combat.
>
> Minions were about to enter combat when the acting Methuselah declared the block
> successful.
>
> > b1 - acting Meth may use "about to enter combat" effects: Promise of
> > 1528, Diamond Thunderbolt (if it's a Malkavian acting via Madness
> > Network / a vampire using the Enkil Cog)
>
> These were all options in a1.
> There is no separate b1.
>
Of course, "foo is about to enter combat" could be played at times when you're about to enter combat without a block e.g. a successful rush action.
> Asnek wrote:
> but is acting vampire still considered acting for purposes of extortion?
>
Nothing changed who the acting minion was (see Mask of a Thousand Faces for that sort of thing), so the acting minion is still the acting minion. The same would be true of, say, Free Fight, where Blood Brothers can switch in and out of combat, but - assuming one of them was the acting minion - the acting minion would still be the acting minion.
> Asnek wrote:
> what about SER version that target's controller of acting minion - controler did not change at all only minion in combat?
>
Should be fine, yes.