Path of the Void + Infernal

An infernal vampire has Path of the Void on them. During the Untap phase do I have to discard a master card due to the Path or is that section ignored due to already being tapped? [using the ordering rule to resolve the path first before paying the infernal cost] Text of Path of the Void > Name: Path of the Void > Cardtype: Master > Cost: 1 pool > Unique master. Path. > Put this card on a vampire you control. This vampire gets +1 stealth, -1 bleed, and can inflict 1 damage on any minion as a action. During this vampire's untap phase, his or her controller must discard a master card or tap this vampire. Burn this card if this vampire commits diablerie. A vampire can have only one path. > Infernal rules > > Infernal: An infernal minion doesn't untap as normal in the untap phase. During his controller's untap phase, she may burn a pool to untap him. > Thank you for your time. So how do you intend to survive? Bleed faster When plumbing the depths of depravity, I must remember to come up for air.

i think you can forego discarding the master card for Path of the Void and 'tap' your infernal vampire that doesn't untap as normal, then spend the pool to untap it. i can't pull out a ruling, but i seem to recall you can burn a pool to untap an infernal vampire despite other "does not untap as normal" clauses.

Yes the infernal rule gets around effects that say doesn't untap as normal [Sensory Derivation, Rotschreke, etc] How ever this a must do X or tap this vampire effect. My question is based on the Must discard or tap clause. So if i have a master card in hand would i have to discard or do i get the option to not discard and tap the currently tapped vampire. Which would allow me to then untap using the infernal rule. So how do you intend to survive? Bleed faster When plumbing the depths of depravity, I must remember to come up for air.

It actually depends on the timing of the "Pay 1 pool". If it must be done in the same time window as the standard "untap your cards" then it must be done before you can use other effects. A: Must pay 1 pool per infernal in the same "untap your cards" windows. Result is that Path of the Void will tap you later if you don't discard. B: Bypass usual "untap your cards" window because of Infernal. Result is that you may sequence them as you please. So it really comes down to... Pascal, Must you declare and pay for the untapping of Infernal Minions in the same time frame as you untap the non-infernal cards you control or not? Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

CRR Section III A 1 Untap all your non-infernal cards.[4][11] (A.3.c) III 3 C {Optional) Pay a pool for each infernal minion you wish to untap. [11] So how do you intend to survive? Bleed faster When plumbing the depths of depravity, I must remember to come up for air.

short answer: yes this combo works, but there's a trap... "Do X or Y" means "You may choose to do X. If you don't do X, do Y." X is treated as a cost, but Y is just an effect. so here, tapping the vampire is just like playing wake + redirection, you're allowed to tap a tapped vampire. if the vampire is already tapped, you can choose "tap" to pay the Path. or you can discard a master just to cycle your hand. either way, you then pay 1 pool afterwards for Infernal untap. do it in that order and you're always fine. if you do it in the opposite order, you will pay 1 pool to untap the Infernal, and then you must choose how to pay the Path! you might waste 1 pool or a master card you needed. this might be questioned in a tournament game, so be sure to announce it in the proper order.

> Haze wrote: > if you do it in the opposite order, you will pay 1 pool to untap the Infernal, and then you must choose how to pay the Path! you might waste 1 pool or a master card you needed. this might be questioned in a tournament game, so be sure to announce it in the proper order. > If you first pay 1 pool and then decide to trigger the untap phase effect of the path, you will have the only choice of tap your infernal vampire or discard a master. You CAN'T pay an other pool to untap your infernal (this is an "only once"). For further clarification, even if you allways trigger the "untap infernal effect" and the path of the void effect, it may cost you pool : you don't have to pay to untap an allready untaped infernal (so un untapped infernal costs nothing) but if your infernal is untapped AND have a path of the void on him, you will have to discard a master or tap him so you will then have to pay for untapping him (so an untap infernal with a path on him cost you 1 pool or a master in hand).

Let's say you have a Path of the Void on Cybele (she's infernal). Remember that effects (not costs, just effects) can tap tapped minions, and can untap untapped minions. If you want Cybele untapped during your master phase, you need at least to either discard a Master card (Path of the Void) or burn 1 pool (Infernal Rule). In this situation, it is always better to apply Path of the Void's effect first (and tap Cybele or discard Master card), because choosing not to untap untapped minions with Infernal Rule is free.

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > It actually depends on the timing of the "Pay 1 pool". If it must be done in the same time window as the standard "untap your cards" then it must be done before you can use other effects. > > A: Must pay 1 pool per infernal in the same "untap your cards" windows. Result is that Path of the Void will tap you later if you don't discard. > > B: Bypass usual "untap your cards" window because of Infernal. Result is that you may sequence them as you please. > > So it really comes down to... > > Pascal, > Must you declare and pay for the untapping of Infernal Minions in the same time frame as you untap the non-infernal cards you control or not? > No. It used to be the case until KMW , but, now, untapping infernal minions during your untap phase is merely one of the "during your untap phase" effects (so you can order it with other such effects - for instance, gaining 1 pool for having the Edge).

> Lazoth wrote: > Yes the infernal rule gets around effects that say doesn't untap as normal [Sensory Derivation, Rotschreke, etc] > > How ever this a must do X or tap this vampire effect. My question is based on the Must discard or tap clause. So if i have a master card in hand would i have to discard or do i get the option to not discard and tap the currently tapped vampire. Which would allow me to then untap using the infernal rule. > It's "Must [discard or tap]" rather than "[must discard] or tap". You don't have to discard a Master to Path of the Void if you want to tap the vampire it's on.

Thank you, it is what I thought but wanted to make sure because of the Must section. Should make one of my Baali decks a bit easier to get things through light permacept. So how do you intend to survive? Bleed faster When plumbing the depths of depravity, I must remember to come up for air.