Hi there! This will be my first post here and I want to ask about this card, so many times discussed...
Recently I´ve read in old rulings that minion text is considered to be an effect that would not allow playing Mask of a Thousand Faces to another minion.
<No other minion can use X vampires special text, it is unique to that
particular minion.>
This will include "specific" special texts, such as Nakhthorheb´s, but also more "regular" special texts, such as "+1 bleed" or "+1 stealth". The Ruling said the masking minion cannot use the special text of another minion, even if he has the same one in his own text.
Example 1: Persephone Tar-Anis cannot Mask the bleed action of Rodolfo because the action is declared using Rodolfo´s +1 bleed. Persephone can´t use her own +1 bleed validating the initial (Rodolfo´s) skill. How does this work?
Example2: Nakhthorheb declares an action. As his text says "Minions with your corruption counters cannot block him" this text is an innerent part of the declaration so no minion can Mask any of his actions, no matter there are corruption coounters placed or not. How does this work?
I hope have been able to explain myself...
Firstly, welcome to the forums!
Second, everyone prefers you provide the card text on these things. Im on a phone, so ill paraphraze some:
Needs to be used by ready untapped vampire other than the acting minion.
Then heres what you are asking about:
. Not usable if any action modifiers or other effects have been used that could not have been used if this vampire were the acting vampire.
Action modifiers are simple to decifer, so "other effects" is what we are after. Id say Nkthorheb may fall into this category, since its has the relevance to the action and its blockability, but im thinking not so much for +bleed, since that wont matter unless the action resolves or a card like AI checks the bleed amount. So, in thoery, Apache Jones or Uncle George can KS bleed, get blocked, and have Persephe or Rudolpho or Rachel Brandywine mask of 1000 faces into the action, and vice versa.
But thats just a card wording interpretation, im not a rulings monger, so others may have some ruling to defy how it reads.
> Recently I´ve read in old rulings that minion text is considered to be an effect that would not allow playing Mask of a Thousand Faces to another minion.
>
Correct, even if it's the same text, such as +1 stealth.
> This will include "specific" special texts, such as Nakhthorheb´s, but also more "regular" special texts, such as "+1 bleed"
>
Only if for some reason, it has been "used". +1 bleed is unlikely to be used before the bleed resolution.
> or "+1 stealth"
>
Correct.
> Example 1: Persephone Tar-Anis cannot Mask the bleed action of Rodolfo because the action is declared using Rodolfo´s +1 bleed. Persephone can´t use her own +1 bleed validating the initial (Rodolfo´s) skill. How does this work?
>
Wrong, she can mask. Arika can also mask Lupo's bleed.
> Example2: Nakhthorheb declares an action. As his text says "Minions with your corruption counters cannot block him" this text is an innerent part of the declaration so no minion can Mask any of his actions, no matter there are corruption coounters placed or not. How does this work?
>
See groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/a60275275258febc
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
I have an additional question (for Floppy).
Vamp A bleeds. Vamp B attempts to block. Giotto decides to mask the action. This is legal, and vamp B must now burn a blood to attempt to block.
groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/mask$20$20giotto/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/GbuA7u3Z690/U6gtmNB4LDIJ
Now, the other way round:
Giotto bleeds, prey declines block, can another vampire mask the action? (Is Giotto's special considered to be "used"?)
Giotto bleeds, vamp B pays 1 blood to attempt to block, can another vamp A mask the action? (assuming the answer is "no", Giotto's special has been used).
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
> I have an additional question (for Floppy).
>
> Vamp A bleeds. Vamp B attempts to block. Giotto decides to mask the action. This is legal, and vamp B must now burn a blood to attempt to block.
> groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/mask$20$20giotto/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/GbuA7u3Z690/U6gtmNB4LDIJ
>
Now that's a weird ruling.
It's weird because in one sentence LSJ states that you have to pay when you make the block attempt announcement, whereas in another sentence he states that if you have already declared a block attempt, and Giotto masks, you still have to pay.
The only way this makes sense is to consider that the block attempt is re-established whenever Mask is played.
> Ankha wrote:
> Now, the other way round:
>
> Giotto bleeds, prey declines block, can another vampire mask the action? (Is Giotto's special considered to be "used"?)
>
No, Giotto's ability is not used if noone attempts to block (same goes for +1 stealth bonus and for Toreador Grand Ball'd vampires - if noone attempts to block, they aren't "used").
> Ankha wrote:
> Giotto bleeds, vamp B pays 1 blood to attempt to block, can another vamp A mask the action? (assuming the answer is "no", Giotto's special has been used).
>
No. Giotto's ability has been used.
> Pascal wrote:
> It's weird because in one sentence LSJ states that you have to pay when you make the block attempt announcement, whereas in another sentence he states that if you have already declared a block attempt, and Giotto masks, you still have to pay.
>
I think the point he's making is one of "To be able to attempt to block Giotto, you have to have paid the cost of his ability. So now you're being forced to attempt to block him, you pay or back out."
For example: "Anneke cannot be attempting to block Giotto since she hasn't burned a blood to do so."
I think the essence is that LSJ interprets Giotto's text as "A vampire cannot be attempting to block Giotto if they haven't burned a blood to this special" as an ongoing check, rather than "A vampire burns a blood when they announce an attempt to block the action and Giotto is the acting minion" as a one-off effect.
Thus, when my copy of Gilbert Duane announces an attempt to block Giotto on a normal action, he has to burn a blood at that point to do it. But any time Giotto becomes the acting minion, the same check is perpetually applied to any would-be blocking minions. Haven't paid? You're not attempting a block.
> Pascal wrote:
> The only way this makes sense is to consider that the block attempt is re-established whenever Mask is played.
>
If that's the case, what happens in the following situation:
- A bleeds.
- D blocks cross-table by playing Eagle's Sight, which now says: "This reacting vampire attempts to block the current action, ignoring the normal prey, predator or target restrictions for blocking actions."
- Another vampire controlled by A plays Mask.
The current card text of Eagle's Sight (or similar effects) only let me break the restrictions for that one block attempt.
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> Regarding the Giotto text, the same would be applied the card Archon no doubt since they have similar wording.
>
Not quite. LSJ is quite specific that the way Giotto works is because it's phrased as a cost, not an effect to be applied.
[LSJ 20020626]
> LSJ wrote:
> See Giotto's card text.
> The vampire must burn a blood to attempt to block Giotto.
> If he doesn't burn a blood, he isn't atempting to block.
>
> > 1) Smudge bleeds and Anneke attempts to block. Suhailah, previously
> > voted to be an Archon, masks at inferior. Can Anneke now stop attempting
> > to block and avoid burning one blood? At the time Mask is played Anneke
> > is still attempting to block the bleed.
> No. Archon isn't "burn to attempt to block". It's "attempt to block creates
> a burn blood effect".
>
That is, the card text isn't actually the same.
Current card text:
Archon: Any vampire attempting to block this vampire burns 1 blood.
Giotto: Vampires must burn a blood to attempt to block Giotto
Example: can a vampire with 0 blood attempt to block an Archon? Yes. They attempt to block, then they burn the blood to it - which is ignored on an empty vampire. Can a vampire with 0 blood attempt to block Giotto? No, because they can't meet the cost ("do X to do Y").
Hence, not actually the same card text.