I haven't written in a while and thought it important to go over mistakes that I've seen others make and/or were committed by myself. These common mistakes are useful for new or rusty players to be aware of IMO.
1) Bleed your prey
I think that people get caught up in their game and often forget to chip away at their prey's pool. While you are waiting for your combo go to off or whatever, send in a couple of one-bleeds. You will weaken your prey's defenses by forcing the choice of expending resources against your attacks or letting them clog their hand for some big thing that may or may not happen later. Even a few points of pool damage can mean the difference between winning or losing- you may not have the opportunity to make up those few points of damage if you lose these early opportunities.
2) Bleed for four
Depending on who you are bleeding, when in the game, the minion you are bleeding with and what other attacks you have that turn, it makes sense to risk minions to AI by bleeding for 4+. Sometimes you NEED to do this in order to maximize your attacks (i.e. Conditioning at DOM, Aire of Elation at PRE/Tor, Foreshadowing Destruction, etc). I have missed the final(s) of games because I feared AI and bleed slightly more conservatively than I should.
3) Lie
Bluff, make false promises, backstab, basically do whatever you have to do to win. In casual games this is not a big deal, except that it takes some practice. There are a few important things to consider: does lying help me win, can I deliver the lie successfully and what is the fallout to lying. Lying without having something to gain is more a concern because of fallout. You can make people think that you have defenses you don't (or visa versa) by your body language, what you say, sighs, and how you do them. If you are siting on three wakes and deflections and have a bleeder behind you, act like your hand sucks and put it down in disgust. If you have no/little bounce, then hold your cards, look at your predator's minions (maybe re-read their specials), carefully organize your hand and be attentive. Get in your opponent's head. This may force them to make mistakes or misjudgements that improve your position and have no real fallout in terms of people seeking revenge. Sometimes the best way to prevent revenge is by crippling someone.
3) Protect your key minions
Don't bleed for four early with your star. I have been AI'd multiple times early, making my game very hard. Don't block if you can't afford to lose or rescue your dude. If you have a strong combat hand at the time, then maybe go ahead and block. Be careful.
4) Early Discards
Don't discard that second copy of something early unless it is clear you will not need it. Two Majesties or two Lost in Crowds may be just what you need, but you don't know it yet. Test the waters before you put yourself in a bad position.
5) Kill the best players
Some players are just too good and need to die. They can manipulate the table into not killing them when they should. You may need to cross-table oust or backoust them to win the long game. If you can kill off the players as good or better than yourself and others don't kill you, then you will be in a better position.
What other basic ideas can you guys think of? What do you think of these?
Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one.
-Friedrich Nietzsche
brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/
I'd advice some consistency in your titles. 1) says what you should do, and 2) what you should not. All points should have "not" where it is necessary for all of them to be "good thing to do" or a "bad thing".
Given your dedication to AI, I'd like to add that it is a "prayer" card and unlikely to be found in large quantities, thus you should feel safer going into AI range early, than mid-to-late-game.
Sabbat. If this vampire's bleed is successful, he laughs manicly and untaps.
> brandonsantacruz wrote:
> 5) Kill the best players
> Some players are just too good and need to die. They can manipulate the table into not killing them when they should. You may need to cross-table oust or backoust them to win the long game. If you can kill off the players as good or better than yourself and others don't kill you, then you will be in a better position.
>
Good players will (/should) anticipate that and try to put you in a position where you will always gain more by not killing them. In such positions, it is obviously incorrect to kill them unless you can somehow change that dynamic. Remember, the goal is not to prevent someone else's win, it's to win or score points for yourself.
That said, I do agree with the idea of pulling the trigger first when you recognize that you will eventually have to go toe-to-toe with a particular deck or a player. Better fight him when it suits you instead of waiting for him to get prepared. I wouldn't call that a rule though, just something to consider in certain situations.
> What other basic ideas can you guys think of? What do you think of these?
>
Too rigid. I think the only good rule is to always do the best possible move. Any other helpful rule of thumb should be directed to your opponents and only when it helps you ("don't rush me bro, prey is to the left!")
Instead of advocating some options over others, it's better to identify the ones that often get missed.
EDIT: Concerning bluffing: for the bluff to make any sense, there needs to be some meaningful risk involved for whoever might want to call it. If you bluff a Wake with Leatherface and Edward Vignes has a Change of Target, it's a weak bluff and you can get heavily punished for trying it. So I guess you should only bluff if
a) you know for certain your opponent will have to put more at stake than you
or
b) you're on your last pool counter and there's no other options left.
> kombainas wrote:
>
> Given your dedication to AI, I'd like to add that it is a "prayer" card and unlikely to be found in large quantities, thus you should feel safer going into AI range early, than mid-to-late-game.
>
Maybe it is because like more than 50% of decks i play are Assamite decks, but i do not think i have built a deck without at least one copy of AI in the last several years.
There are, i guess, people like that in every playgroup, that you simply KNOW that if you are going to try to bleed for 4, you may burn.
And yes, even though it is hard to find AI in "large quantities", one AI when you do not need it can end your game on the spot.
But, it is always prudent to pay attention to what your prey is playing. Lawfirm - not so likely to have AI. Assamite anarch? Bet your ass on it
> Pendargon wrote:
>
> > kombainas wrote:
> >
> > Given your dedication to AI, I'd like to add that it is a "prayer" card and unlikely to be found in large quantities, thus you should feel safer going into AI range early, than mid-to-late-game.
> >
> Maybe it is because like more than 50% of decks i play are Assamite decks, but i do not think i have built a deck without at least one copy of AI in the last several years.
> There are, i guess, people like that in every playgroup, that you simply KNOW that if you are going to try to bleed for 4, you may burn.
> And yes, even though it is hard to find AI in "large quantities", one AI when you do not need it can end your game on the spot.
> But, it is always prudent to pay attention to what your prey is playing. Lawfirm - not so likely to have AI. Assamite anarch? Bet your ass on it
>
Ive taken to running AI alongside 6-8 deflections. NOBODY anticipates it.
My prey "bleed for 5 with Lutz! I can di his bounce/block your bleed/bounce it back!"
My predator"Lutz kindre spirits bleeds, i confusion it when you block"
Me AI.
> ReverendRevolver wrote:
>
> > Pendargon wrote:
> >
> > > kombainas wrote:
> > >
> > > Given your dedication to AI, I'd like to add that it is a "prayer" card and unlikely to be found in large quantities, thus you should feel safer going into AI range early, than mid-to-late-game.
> > >
> > >
> > Maybe it is because like more than 50% of decks i play are Assamite decks, but i do not think i have built a deck without at least one copy of AI in the last several years.
> > There are, i guess, people like that in every playgroup, that you simply KNOW that if you are going to try to bleed for 4, you may burn.
> > And yes, even though it is hard to find AI in "large quantities", one AI when you do not need it can end your game on the spot.
> > But, it is always prudent to pay attention to what your prey is playing. Lawfirm - not so likely to have AI. Assamite anarch? Bet your ass on it
> >
> Ive taken to running AI alongside 6-8 deflections. NOBODY anticipates it.
> My prey "bleed for 5 with Lutz! I can di his bounce/block your bleed/bounce it back!"
> My predator"Lutz kindre spirits bleeds, i confusion it when you block"
> Me AI.
>
This is something that I used to do as well! Usually I have AI only when I don't need to protect my pool proactively (call it backrush). Bleed bounce is the best way to protect your pool, but it can be undone easily by DI and counter bounce.
----
Banging trashcans, breaking windows
We'll wake you up tonight
We like the good time, we scream and shout
And that's what fun's about
> ReverendRevolver wrote:
>
> Ive taken to running AI alongside 6-8 deflections. NOBODY anticipates it.
> My prey "bleed for 5 with Lutz! I can di his bounce/block your bleed/bounce it back!"
> My predator"Lutz kindre spirits bleeds, i confusion it when you block"
> Me AI.
>
This occurred to me at a recent tournament organized by Brandon. I didn't expect my Tremere prey to run AI. His bounce got DI'ed, so I played Aire of Elation with Alexandra. She got burned.
Even with the fear of AI, I would still have done it, since one VP very well could have won me the tournament and I didn't get a lot of openings against my defensive prey. The thing is, the bleed would not have ousted him and playing the AI did not help him win the tournament. Instead, it meant that my predator won.
Yea, I time my stuff better. Im only petty enough to burn my grandprrdators IC member after i eat a bleed or two. I can only say "your bleeding into untapped dominate" so many times before i say "if you cant play nice with a bleed of 6, im taking your toys" and go all cost effective to stop with huge losses. Normally, i just deflect, but if its my predators allstar, and hes not blocking with it, it feels like solely my problem.
I can see some players playing AI the bad way, but i treat it alot like Ariadne eating people: dont unbalance the table unless you can win by it or rebalance things quickly.
> ReverendRevolver wrote:
>
> I can see some players playing AI the bad way, but i treat it alot like Ariadne eating people: dont unbalance the table unless you can win by it or rebalance things quickly.
>
Since when is Ariadne a posterchild for eating people? What happened to my lovely Tariq?
Anyway, i agree. It may be just me, but i really like AI, mainly because i play Assamites, and therefore often combat. And combat is minion control.
And AI is basically saying :"pay 3 pool to remove a vampire from the table that is trying to hurt your precious pool, without spending precious red cards"
Good
Shes behind Tariq and Muaziz as the poster child for eating people, and possibly tied with Basilia+Archon.
But, shes the one i use the most. Its all non-threatening stacking vessels and abactor hunting, then you start eatimg people and its not such a nonthreatening deck anymore......
AI is more akin to pentex than to dummy corp, so its better to see it that way. Its better to remove Gilbert duane or Mariel or Isabel G than someone with just inf dominate and a support discipline.
But i feel the threads been highjacked by AI philosophy, prayer card or not (graverobbing is more prayer card than AI,fast hands is the poster child for prayer cards...)
Back on track:
Never forget that diablery is an option. Its mean, its dirty, it wont win friends, but if it comes down to losing vamp like Jephta Hester or even Dragos in order to remove your predators Arika, it probably gaims you pool to lose the minion in some situations. Especially if you can see getting ousted soon if that minion is rescued. Ita not an always thing, but we see it as a never thing too often.
My 2 pool:
- Keep pressure on your prey, but not so much that they stop going forward.
- Know when to burn, torp or weaken a vampire.
*I was secretly hoping this was a thread about using Protean.*
I think this could use it's own section:
Get into your opponents' heads. Someone who does this really well is Dennis Lien - he loves to give "friendly advice".
Also, speak when necessary, and shut up when necessary. It's not always obvious which is the best choice - that comes with experience.
Figure out as early as possible what every deck on the table is - how it will oust, how it will defend, and how it threatens you. Determine at the same time the experience level of each player; or even better if you know the players - what their personal weaknesses and strengths are.
Chris
Most of the game is getting into the heads of the other players. Thats somethimg everyone has to develope on thier own, and learn other players tells as well.
Yesferatu, we can try to figure out good ways to play Protean, but its still not easy.
Adaptability is useful if youre crazy enough to run dedicated combat with no other prevent.
Horrific Countenance is often overlooked.
Lokis gift is cool.
I hear it can aggpoke alot.
Felsh of marble is neat
Form of mist is good.
Earth control and rapid change are neat.
Eyes of the Beast and Sonar are playable sometimes.
But, my best tip for playing Protean:
Play Earth Meld.
> ReverendRevolver wrote:
> Most of the game is getting into the heads of the other players. Thats somethimg everyone has to develope on thier own, and learn other players tells as well.
>
> Yesferatu, we can try to figure out good ways to play Protean, but its still not easy.
>
> Adaptability is useful if youre crazy enough to run dedicated combat with no other prevent.
>
> Horrific Countenance is often overlooked.
> Lokis gift is cool.
> I hear it can aggpoke alot.
> Felsh of marble is neat
> Form of mist is good.
> Earth control and rapid change are neat.
> Eyes of the Beast and Sonar are playable sometimes.
> But, my best tip for playing Protean:
>
> Play Earth Meld.
>
I think that Form of Mist is the best protean card, better than Earth Meld and still S:CE. It is the best single stealth card in the game when delivering multiple attacks per turn.
Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one.
-Friedrich Nietzsche
brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/
My observations of playing deck which delivers using combat (bruise and bleed):
1) Bleed as often you can, instead of rushing. Even bleeds of one are important. Think it this way: Bleeding with Jimmy Dunn every turn is same to your pray as paying for Anarch Revolt or Antediluvian Awakening.
2) Your red cards are as important assets as your other library, don't waste them if you don't need to. They help you get rid of trouble, but showing your force too early means your become trouble to other players.
3) Your goal is to oust your prey, focus on that. If you need to weaken your predator - fine, but the reward is to left.
4) Don't threat people, they don't like it.
5) Take it like a man (no offense to any female players around): If you take one from KRC, it's not personal.
6) If they make them business as your business, show your power: If you take 3 from a bleed or vote, bury them.
7) Don't fight or provoke other combat decks.
8) Be patient. Playing a fight deck exhausts your deck really fast if you fight for fight's sake. Every action and every combat should help you first.
----
Banging trashcans, breaking windows
We'll wake you up tonight
We like the good time, we scream and shout
And that's what fun's about
> brandonsantacruz wrote:
>
> 3) Lie
> Bluff, make false promises, backstab, basically do whatever you have to do to win. [...]
>
I have never broken a deal in this game, unless it was to like win a tournament or so. And people know that. Many of the best players I know have the same reputation. So consider achieving such a reputation yourself - I think it´s good for you in the long run.
"My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."
> Ashur wrote:
>
> > brandonsantacruz wrote:
> >
> > 3) Lie
> > Bluff, make false promises, backstab, basically do whatever you have to do to win. [...]
> >
> I have never broken a deal in this game, unless it was to like win a tournament or so. And people know that. Many of the best players I know have the same reputation. So consider achieving such a reputation yourself - I think it´s good for you in the long run.
>
I think 'Lie' should be substituted with 'Bluff' in the list. Nobody likes a deal breaker, and breaking deals only hurts you in the long run.
However, bluffing will win you games. These don't necessarily need to be lies, just making others believe stuff like you have intercept/wakes/delaying tactics/etc in your hand.
> Von_Polack wrote:
> Nobody likes a deal breaker
>
Untrue. No one likes getting fooled. But typically, someone breaking a deal doesn't cause you to not like them personally.
Trying to social engineer away deal breaking is precisely the 2nd best reason to break a deal. That and it helps you win.
Chris
> librarian wrote:
> I think this could use it's own section:
> Get into your opponents' heads. Someone who does this really well is Dennis Lien - he loves to give "friendly advice".
>
Haven't seen Dennis in a while. He is still in my head!!!
I generally will not break a deal, although I have a few times, because of personal feelings. This is why I am predictable and, as such, a bad player. If you break deals regularly you are also predictable. From some players, I expect them to be lying and this has affected my success negatively as well.
@Von_Pollack- I have been lied to many times but I don't dislike a person usually. If someone lies in the game and I don't like them, it's usually because they are a jerk outside of the game and the in-game lying just adds to it. Some of the players I enjoy playing with most lie 'like a rug'! "Lie" is a harsh word, but the rules of the game seem to indicate/imply it is indeed part of the game.
General advice I usually apply:
Don't talk when it's not your turn, unless someone is offering you something immediately and want promises on the future.
> Pascal wrote:
> General advice I usually apply:
> Don't talk when it's not your turn, unless someone is offering you something immediately and want promises on the future.
>
Very good advice. Unless you want to confuse someone I´dont know how may weird, confusing deals I´ve been offered at international games. Not naming any nations ...
"My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."