Sorry if this has been asked before.
For tournaments.
Printout - The printed DM card.
* Does it have to be in colour?
* How much is the printout to be allowed to deviate in size from a normal card?
* In case of bad quality of the printout I guess you can be disqualified/warned ?
Back-card - The card that is put behind the printout.
* Can you always chose not to glue it on the printout?
* Does it have to be a VTES card?
* How much in thickness is the back-card+printout allowed to deviate from a normal card?
Hmmm, that is all I think
Thx
Robert
See www.vekn.net/tournament-rules:
> 4. Tournament Game Rules
> 4.1. Cards Allowed
>
> All cards in a player's deck must be genuine Vampire: The Eternal Struggle or Jyhad cards or official V:EKN issued cards from the only authoritative source www.vekn.net. When using V:EKN issued cards they must be color printed on standard paper and inserted into opaque sleeves before another Vampire: The Eternal Struggle or Jyhad card, this requires opaque sleeves for the whole crypt and/or library.
>
Quality is considered good enough if you can read the artist name. This ensures that all artists that worked for free on the set are rewarded.
You don't have to glue the paper on the card. Paper should be as thin as possible to make the cards less noticeable by touch or shuffling.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> BobbyDoc wrote:
> Thx for the reply.
> And what about the size?
>
> / R
>
The PDFs as distributed should be printed "as-is" and cut out carefully, so the piece of paper you get is pretty much exactly the same size as a real card. If you print them any smaller, card text may get hard to read - especially as many of us will be using relatively cheap printers with ordinary paper. And don't forget that part of the point of a card isn't just for you to be able to read it, but for players cross-table to be able to identify it.
Be careful because some combination of your Operating System and/or your printer settings and/or your PDF viewer might not make it obvious that it's about to resize the output when you print it. In particular, when there's a difference between the paper you're printing on and the PDF yuo have between US Letter and A4 size, you can often find that the printout will be magically scaled to fit the paper.
> BobbyDoc wrote:
> Sorry if this has been asked before.
>
> For tournaments.
>
> Printout - The printed DM card.
> * Does it have to be in colour?
>
Yes (Tournament Rules 4.1).
>
> BobbyDoc wrote:
> * How much is the printout to be allowed to deviate in size from a normal card?
>
The generated .pdf files were created to be printed on A4 ( 8.27in x 11.69in, or 210mm x 297mm), which is slightly different from the US letter format (A4 is thiner and taller).
>
> BobbyDoc wrote:
> * In case of bad quality of the printout I guess you can be disqualified/warned ?
>
Judge's discretion.
[EDIT] Penalty guidelines are being re-written. I suppose the recommended penalty should be to remove some VPs from the player. But, once the new guidelines are published, it will still remain up to the Judge.
> BobbyDoc wrote:
> Back-card - The card that is put behind the printout.
> * Can you always chose not to glue it on the printout?
>
Yes, and it is quite recommended (as it doesn't add another layer to the things in the sleeve).
>
> BobbyDoc wrote:
> * Does it have to be a VTES card?
>
Yes. A crypt card for the crypt, and a library card for the library (in order to avoid semi-translucid sleeves to let the information through - common example of "semi-translucid sleeves": Ultra Pro's white sleeves).
>
> BobbyDoc wrote:
> * How much in thickness is the back-card+printout allowed to deviate from a normal card?
>
Since I don't expect judges to carry micrometers, I will go with recommendations:
- Print on regular paper (80g/m²) (80 gm/m² is approx 22 pounds per ream).
- Cut so as the paper + card fit loosely in the sleeve (especially: the paper doesn't bend)
- If it's thicker than a card and two paper prints in a sleeve, it's too thick.
About the size (because sometimes, size does matter):
Apart from the black edges (can't remember the size, but I suppose < 0.1", or <0.3 cm), if you can see anything from the card behind the sleeve, then something is wrong. If the black edges of the printed card have been cut off, then something is wrong.
This should allow for ~10% inexactitude.
I've created a new Resource link (check the menu on the left) with all the details:
www.vekn.net/official-expansion-sets
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Pascal wrote:
>
> > BobbyDoc wrote:
> > * In case of bad quality of the printout I guess you can be disqualified/warned ?
> >
> Judge's discretion.
> [EDIT] Penalty guidelines are being re-written. I suppose the recommended penalty should be to remove some VPs from the player. But, once the new guidelines are published, it will still remain up to the Judge.
>
I'd find it rather ridiculous to see somebody losing VPs because of a bad printout. The most important point is IMHO that you have to be able to read the text on the card. As long as that's possible I'd be fine with that.
Anyway I'd tell the guy to come up with better prints next tournament of course.
Baron of Frankfurt
> Pascal wrote:
>
> > BobbyDoc wrote:
> > Sorry if this has been asked before. For tournaments:
> > Printout - The printed DM card.
> > * Does it have to be in colour?
> >
> Yes (Tournament Rules 4.1).
>
A lot, and I mean A LOT of players have access to high-resolution black-and-white laser printers, but not necessarily color printers. Is there a reason that the VEKN cares about color vs b+w? (Sorry if I missed a conclusion on this before.)
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/
Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017
> KevinM wrote:
> Is there a reason that the VEKN cares about color vs b+w? (Sorry if I missed a conclusion on this before.)
>
I guess players should be able to tell cards apart from cross-table. It´s alot easier with colour cards.
"My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."
The page where the PDFs are located are DOES contain rules for the use of the PDF set.
AFAIK these are all still valid.
www.vekn.net/vampire-elder-kindred-network/246-danse-macabre
How to use Danse Macabre cards in a V:EKN sanctioned tournament
When using Danse Macabre cards they must be color printed on standard paper and inserted into opaque sleeves before another Vampire: The Eternal Struggle or Jyhad card, this requires opaque sleeves for the whole crypt and/or library.
In Finland, as long as these rulea are in effect, if someone attends any of my tournaments with B&W cards I don't effin care if they've travelled from Jupiter or whereever, I will slap them the maximum penalty for breaking the rule. In casual games I don't care if they're using toilet paper for the card stock.
Finnish Politics!
> Lönkka wrote:
> In Finland, as long as these rulea are in effect, if someone attends any of my tournaments with B&W cards I don't effin care if they've travelled from Jupiter or whereever, I will slap them the maximum penalty for breaking the rule. In casual games I don't care if they're using toilet paper for the card stock.
>
In the case the B&W print is of good quality, I let players use the B&W print as proxy for a color-print.
Prox-ception
www.facebook.com/groups/vtes.belgium/
Also, it's not really that hard to get good quality colour prints. Just pool up with your playgroup and find a local print shop (or a friend of a friend of friend who has access to colour printer trough school or work). It's cheaper than buying them as cards.
> D-dennis wrote:
> In the case the B&W print is of good quality, I let players use the B&W print as proxy for a color-print.
> Prox-ception
>
Awww, you're a big softie
And also teach the players that rules need not be followed.
If B&W prints are allowed, shall we also allow poor quality color prints?
Oh, where will it end...
Since it will also be relevant at the next EC (and other big tournaments) we need a ruling on this. Or definite comment that the PDF cards are still to be used as per the instructons they come with (= no B&W).
Finnish Politics!
> Lönkka wrote:
> Awww, you're a big softie
>
That's from all the beer.
> Lönkka wrote:
> And also teach the players that rules need not be followed.
>
The rules still apply. In this case I judged that the B&W print was good enough for play. Of course this was a small event (16 players). At big events, such individual judging might not be feasible.
www.facebook.com/groups/vtes.belgium/
Not messing with you mate, but that really doesn't sound all that different from the situation where someone (with DM cards in the deck) doesn't have opaque sleeves but has transparent ones.
In my case, I like to keep the can of worms closed as much as possible and not give the devil one inch of the littlefinger.
Finnish Politics!
> D-dennis wrote:
> The rules still apply. In this case I judged that the B&W print was good enough for play. Of course this was a small event (16 players). At big events, such individual judging might not be feasible.
>
Could you indicate which tournament this was, so that it can be retroactively unsanctioned?
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
> Could you indicate which tournament this was, so that it can be retroactively unsanctioned?
>
There has been only one tournament in Belgium since the release of Danse Macabre.
I thought there was a precedent for such judging (a jduge allowing a KMW reprint as proxy KMW was not yet legal for play), but I don't find the reference for that.
In our case, judgment was based on The quality of the B&W print The decision to let it be used was carried by the attending players (i.e. nobody was against it) It was an actian card that does not stay in play. This might be different for an event or master that stays in play (where the colour of the card might help crosstable players to see what card is there). Play could go on as normal. No matter at what level vtes is played, it is still a game. A game is supposed to be played and rules facilitate the play. In this case the quality of play was not harmed by the B&W prints, so we started the tournament as normal.
www.facebook.com/groups/vtes.belgium/
It was obvious from the very beginning, that some day the discussion about the requirements (and the conformance of them) of a "proxy edition" would start ...
Finally, we have some new cards, some players are playing V:tES more enthusiastically again – and then a tournament organiser or judge should be forced to punish a player who maybe is just lazy?
How about starting with some kind of warning/caution first that has to be reported in the Archon file, so a player has a chance to "improve" his cards until the next tournament? So punishment is only enforced if the same player is using inferior prints again? Maybe until April or July, as a period of transition?
And, please, don't start talking about nullifying events that already took place.
National Coordinator Germany nc [dot] germany [at] magenta [dot] de
> Hakuron wrote:
> Finally, we have some new cards, some players are playing V:tES more enthusiastically again – and then a tournament organiser or judge should be forced to punish a player who maybe is just lazy?
>
The whole "color" aspect is antithetical to trying to get the VEKN proxy cards accepted anyway. Silly VEKN, shooting itself in the foot again.
When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike.
pckvtes.wordpress.com
@pckvtes
> Jeff wrote:
> The whole "color" aspect is antithetical to trying to get the VEKN proxy cards accepted anyway. Silly VEKN, shooting itself in the foot again.
>
Oh...really? Great wisdom Mr. Jeff, as always.
> Hakuron wrote:
> How about starting with some kind of warning/caution first that has to be reported in the Archon file, so a player has a chance to "improve" his cards until the next tournament? So punishment is only enforced if the same player is using inferior prints again? Maybe until April or July, as a period of transition?
>
Or, if you're the tournament organizer, be one of the good guys and bring some extra color printouts of the Danse Macabre cards.
> Jeff wrote:
>
> > Hakuron wrote:
> > Finally, we have some new cards, some players are playing V:tES more enthusiastically again – and then a tournament organiser or judge should be forced to punish a player who maybe is just lazy?
> >
> The whole "color" aspect is antithetical to trying to get the VEKN proxy cards accepted anyway. Silly VEKN, shooting itself in the foot again.
>
This from the people trying to get cards accepted into the game by:
- printing them with an email address on them, not a picture, ignoring the fact that that makes them nigh-on impossible to identify cross-table. See the initial playtest of V:TES, for example, where cards were printed with clip-art to avoid this. But paying attention to, you know, actual game-play problems is apparently not something PCK cares about, what with re-introducing seat switchers. It's like PCK systematically ignored everything anyone had ever learned about V:TES ever.
- sending cease-and-desist letters to people to stop them being accepted. Literally no-one can ever accept your cards, because we know that if people are mean to you, you send them legal threats.
Silly PCK!
> D-dennis wrote:
> I thought there was a precedent for such judging (a jduge allowing a KMW reprint as proxy KMW was not yet legal for play), but I don't find the reference for that.
>
You were expecting to find precedent for judges being allowed to selectively enforce the tournament rules?
Quick, do a straw-poll of the players at your tournament and you can unban Madness of the Bard! Totes legit!
> D-dennis wrote:
> In our case, judgment was based on
>
... not reading the tournament rules?
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
>
> > D-dennis wrote:
> > I thought there was a precedent for such judging (a jduge allowing a KMW reprint as proxy KMW was not yet legal for play), but I don't find the reference for that.
> >
> You were expecting to find precedent for judges being allowed to selectively enforce the tournament rules?
>
> Quick, do a straw-poll of the players at your tournament and you can unban Madness of the Bard! Totes legit!
>
That was not the case here. It was a simple problem that was solved by a simple solution.
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
>
> > D-dennis wrote:
> > In our case, judgment was based on
> >
> ... not reading the tournament rules?
>
This is the only guideline I found for this matter
>
> How to use Danse Macabre cards in a V:EKN sanctioned tournament
>
> When using Danse Macabre cards they must be color printed on standard paper and inserted into opaque sleeves before another Vampire: The Eternal Struggle or Jyhad card, this requires opaque sleeves for the whole crypt and/or library.
>
3 out of 4 requirements were met (standard paper, opaque sleeves, before anoteher vtes card). The judge applied an appropriate penalty from the Judges' guide. In this case: 103. Deck Problem - Illegal Main Deck (No Decklist Used)
The penalty of game loss was not applied because the issue was announced by the player before the start of the first round (even before seating was known).
Also: no puppies were harmed at this tournament.
www.facebook.com/groups/vtes.belgium/
> D-dennis wrote:
> 3 out of 4 requirements were met (standard paper, opaque sleeves, before anoteher vtes card).
>
By playing Madness of the Bard, I can meet 11 out of 12 requirements for banned cards in V:TES tournaments, making me 16.7% more legal than you.
Consider also the players who may have, in fact, actually read and followed the rules and not played a deck because they didn't have an appropriate colour print-out.
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
>
> > D-dennis wrote:
> > 3 out of 4 requirements were met (standard paper, opaque sleeves, before anoteher vtes card).
> >
> By playing Madness of the Bard, I can meet 11 out of 12 requirements for banned cards in V:TES tournaments, making me 16.7% more legal than you.
>
> Consider also the players who may have, in fact, actually read and followed the rules and not played a deck because they didn't have an appropriate colour print-out.
>
There is no way any judge would or could allow a B&W madness of the bard. The reference to banned cards is of no relevance in this case. There is no mention of a DM card being banned because it doesn't meet the requirements mentioned in the DM printing instructions.
In this case, the appropriate penalty (a warning) was given according to the judges' guide.
I'm not advocating that B&W prints should be allowed by default. The current rules and guides could probably more explicit about how to handle these cases, but players, organisers and judges should be able to handle it without the vekn holding their hands.
www.facebook.com/groups/vtes.belgium/
> D-dennis wrote:
> There is no way any judge would or could allow a B&W madness of the bard. The reference to banned cards is of no relevance in this case.
>
Sure it is. If you can scrap rules because you feel like it, so can I! Everyone round to D-dennis's for a sanctioned Return to Innocence tournament! It's totally allowed!
Putting it more simply: you are not empowered to scrap tournament rules because you feel like it. For the same reason I can't allow Madness of the Bard in sanctioned tournaments, you can't allow non-legal cards in tournaments.
> D-dennis wrote:
> There is no mention of a DM card being banned because it doesn't meet the requirements mentioned in the DM printing instructions.
>
The legal cards are defined as being actual V:TES cards, or colour print outs. Which you don't have.
The Danse Macabre set itself tells you to print it out in colour, unscaled, in opaque sleeves, in order to use them in a tournament. It's right there under "How to use Danse Macabre cards in a V:EKN sanctioned tournament", as part of the Printing Instructions.
> D-dennis wrote:
> The rules still apply. In this case I judged that the B&W print was good enough for play. Of course this was a small event (16 players). At big events, such individual judging might not be feasible.
>
I wouldn't describe national championship tournament as small event. Even with 16 player it's still a major event imo.
Also I noticed that Pascal was playing in this tournament (according the results he played in finals), so apparently he also agreed that b&w prints were fine.
If vekn rules director says that b&w prints are good enough, does it mean that there is now a ruling for that judges are allowed to let people play on b&w prints if they so choose?
Marko, Prince of Helsinki
I was there as a player, not as a judge or organiser.
Had I been one of those, I would either have issued a judging or brought extra copies of Danse Macabre cards.
Either way: the penalty, if any, should not be to penalise non-faulty players. It should always apply to faulty players only. Its degree is up to the judge to set, based on what the Judge Guidelines state.
Still, as you are rules director of this game, you should not agree when you are asked as a player to let others to use b&w prints. According to previous posts, that was asked from all the players present in that tournament.
Imo you can't support the rules only when you're organizer or judge and don't give a damn about them when you are just a player.
Marko, Prince of Helsinki
> Ashur wrote:
>
> > KevinM wrote:
> > Is there a reason that the VEKN cares about color vs b+w? (Sorry if I missed a conclusion on this before.)
> >
> I guess players should be able to tell cards apart from cross-table. It´s alot easier with colour cards.
>
I hear what you're saying, but almost all Christopher Shy art looks like a thumb, so I can't accept your premise.
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/
Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017
> Jeff wrote:
>
> > Hakuron wrote:
> > Finally, we have some new cards, some players are playing V:tES more enthusiastically again – and then a tournament organiser or judge should be forced to punish a player who maybe is just lazy?
> >
> The whole "color" aspect is antithetical to trying to get the VEKN proxy cards accepted anyway. Silly VEKN, shooting itself in the foot again.
>
Jeff, I heard a vicious rumor that you used Danse Macabre cards in your last tournament deck from a few weeks back. Say it ain't so.
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/
Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017
> BenPeal wrote:
> You don't need a ruling if you bring extra color printouts.
>
I had some color printouts, but not enough. A colour printer was available at the venue, but that would just have delayed the schedule. And timing is an issue (mostly due to people needing to ride a few 100 kilometers after the tournmaent).
edit: I found out about the printer only after the tournament
www.facebook.com/groups/vtes.belgium/
> a-e wrote:
> I wouldn't describe national championship tournament as small event. Even with 16 player it's still a major event imo.
>
> Also I noticed that Pascal was playing in this tournament (according the results he played in finals), so apparently he also agreed that b&w prints were fine.
>
> If vekn rules director says that b&w prints are good enough, does it mean that there is now a ruling for that judges are allowed to let people play on b&w prints if they so choose?
>
With small I meant the number of attendees. 16 players (at this part of the venue) is still feasible for one person to organise, (multi-)judge and play.
Pascal's rulesmongership was not taken into consideration during that event. When judging, I frequently consult people that have more experience than me. I judge as a person, not as a machine, so errors are possible - obviously.
Based on the available resources I had at that time (rulebook, tournament rulesn Judges' guide) I gave a penalty (a warning). If that should have been another penalty, please tell me which of the available ones would have been more appropriate.
www.facebook.com/groups/vtes.belgium/
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
>
> > D-dennis wrote:
> > There is no way any judge would or could allow a B&W madness of the bard. The reference to banned cards is of no relevance in this case.
> >
> Sure it is. If you can scrap rules because you feel like it, so can I! Everyone round to D-dennis's for a sanctioned Return to Innocence tournament! It's totally allowed!
>
> Putting it more simply: you are not empowered to scrap tournament rules because you feel like it. For the same reason I can't allow Madness of the Bard in sanctioned tournaments, you can't allow non-legal cards in tournaments.
>
I did not scrap any tournament rules. The tournament rules were violated, and I solved that with a penalty that I thought to be appropriate. Yes, it is possible that I applied the wrong penalty.
Never have I stated that B&W prints are allowed by default or that such cards would be accepted at future tournaments.
www.facebook.com/groups/vtes.belgium/
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
> Could you indicate which tournament this was, so that it can be retroactively unsanctioned?
>
Whoa! Even I would CERTAINLY not advocate this.
D-dennis did a judge decision and I'm OK by it.
I'm pretty sure people know about the b&w print restriction but some are just too lazy/cheap/whatever to print teh required color ones. They might claim ignorance about the matter.
Just to counter this I've been adding to the emails about my tournaments a note on the new set and stressing the fact that you need COLOR prints.
Finnish Politics!
> a-e wrote:
> Still, as you are rules director of this game, you should not agree when you are asked as a player to let others to use b&w prints. According to previous posts, that was asked from all the players present in that tournament.
>
> Imo you can't support the rules only when you're organizer or judge and don't give a damn about them when you are just a player.
>
Tournament Rules, 2.6: "The head judge is the final judicial authority at any V:EKN-sanctioned tournament (see section 2.5 - Judge Responsibilities)."
+
Tournament Rules, 2.7: "The head judge's decision is final."
Given the fact that a judgement had already been given by the head judge when I was made aware of the situation at the event, my position of Rules Director couldn't interact with the decision given.
I can't change, and I also don't want to change, the Tournament Rules during an event, just because I am Rules Director. (Or maybe I should add something in the lines of "If a player is Rules Director, they automatically qualify ot the finals.")
well I know what I'm doing from now on!!!! -- bringing an extra set of B&W prints as a bait n switch to troll tournament organizers and see how they react.
> 4.7. Tapped Cards
>
> If a card must be tapped as a part of the game rules, it must be turned approximately 90 degrees from the normal position.
>
I must confess that all this time I've only been turning my cards 82.5 degrees to the side. this is only an 11/12 ratio of following the requirements, which makes me just as guilty as the earlier Madness of the Bard example. jamesatzephyr, I request thy assistance, for we must retroactively unsanction all tournaments I have ever played in - including several NACs. it's for the good of the game, and the VEKN as a whole, I trust you understand.
> Jeff wrote:
> The whole "color" aspect is antithetical to trying to get the VEKN proxy cards accepted anyway. Silly VEKN, shooting itself in the foot again.
>
> Szewski wrote:
> Oh...really? Great wisdom Mr. Jeff, as always.
>
Yes, really. Not everyone has access to a color printer. It seems the VEKN has placed a higher priority on appearances of the cards, rather than trying to gain wider acceptance of them by allowing quality black and white prints. It is an unnecessary impediment.
Clearly there are other people out there who think the same way. And clearly there are those who are gonna follow the rules just because someone else said so.
When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike.
pckvtes.wordpress.com
@pckvtes
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
> This from the people trying to get cards accepted into the game by:
>
> - printing them with an email address on them, not a picture, ignoring the fact that that makes them nigh-on impossible to identify cross-table. See the initial playtest of V:TES, for example, where cards were printed with clip-art to avoid this.
>
I find it much more useful to identify and remember a card by its name rather than by its art. You may recall that many popular cards have multiple artworks and layouts.
> But paying attention to, you know, actual game-play problems is apparently not something PCK cares about, what with re-introducing seat switchers. It's like PCK systematically ignored everything anyone had ever learned about V:TES ever.
>
I again invite the VTES community to check out the PCK Laibon set--Champions of Cagn--and decide for yourself.
pckvtes.wordpress.com/2013/10/29/champions-of-cagn-unbound/
> - sending cease-and-desist letters to people to stop them being accepted. Literally no-one can ever accept your cards, because we know that if people are mean to you, you send them legal threats.
>
Quite a broad generalization. The letter didn't go to "people". It went to specific people with a specific purpose. Glad it helped the VEKN clean up its act.
When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike.
pckvtes.wordpress.com
@pckvtes
> KevinM wrote:
> Jeff, I heard a vicious rumor that you used Danse Macabre cards in your last tournament deck from a few weeks back. Say it ain't so.
>
Yes. It was in the tournament report. I was trying to prove a point. I think some cards, in particular Recruitment Exercise and Instantaneous Transformation, are overpowered and don't fix problems with VTES. They only make some problems worse. I made my deck the night before, had never played with those cards previously and nearly won the tournament with them.
When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike.
pckvtes.wordpress.com
@pckvtes
> Jeff wrote:
>
> > jamesatzephyr wrote:
> > This from the people trying to get cards accepted into the game by:
> >
> > - printing them with an email address on them, not a picture, ignoring the fact that that makes them nigh-on impossible to identify cross-table. See the initial playtest of V:TES, for example, where cards were printed with clip-art to avoid this.
> >
> I find it much more useful to identify and remember a card by its name rather than by its art. You may recall that many popular cards have multiple artworks and layouts.
>
The VEKN decided that colour prints would be required, not only to keep visual coherence of all cards - trying to learn V:tES with Jyhad cards is a real pain, whereas it's way simpler with KoT cards, simply because "the political actions are yellow, the combat cards are red, the reactions are blue, and the masters are green" is way simpler than "check the little box in the corner, if it has 2 triangles going in opposite directions, it's an action, if the triangles are empty, it's a modifier, if it's a single huge arrow, its a reaction, ..." - but also because it is a way for us to thank the volunteers who put efforts in realizing the artworks.
I don't want to encourage "whatever the artwork, I'll just play the text" behaviours.
> Hakuron wrote:
> [...]
> Finally, we have some new cards, some players are playing V:tES more enthusiastically again – and then a tournament organiser or judge should be forced to punish a player who maybe is just lazy?
>
> How about starting with some kind of warning/caution first that has to be reported in the Archon file, so a player has a chance to "improve" his cards until the next tournament? So punishment is only enforced if the same player is using inferior prints again? Maybe until April or July, as a period of transition?
> [...]
>
After a lot of "off-topic stuff", I would like to come back to the topic, okay?
(So, please, responses with responsibility, thanks to all of you!)
Ben suggests that the organiser brings along enough good printouts (and some scissors). This way "good Danse Macabre printouts" would be our new promo cards. Well, why not? But how much is enough? And is this really the way how it should be?
(I personally favour good or even high quality colour printouts so they somehow match with the cards.)
National Coordinator Germany nc [dot] germany [at] magenta [dot] de
> Jeff wrote:
> Yes, really. Not everyone has access to a color printer.
>
Yeah, sure.
Next thing you'll be saying that not everyone have cell phones either.
I bet in your neck of wood EVERY vtes player has access to Kinkos or somesuch printing company...
Ah, BTW nice to notice that you still just can't stop poking at people/VEKN regarding your stint at the designer team and the stupidity that ensued. Nor hyping up the cards you and your PCP (or whatever) buddies made.
Finnish Politics!
> Hakuron wrote:
> Ben suggests that the organiser brings along enough good printouts (and some scissors). This way "good Danse Macabre printouts" would be our new promo cards. Well, why not? But how much is enough? And is this really the way how it should be?
>
According to the tournament rules, anyone using cards from a PDF expansion must use full-color printouts. In practice (as we've seen), most will do so and a few won't. Rather than make a mountain out of a molehill with respect to adherence to tournament rules, it'd be useful for a tournament organizer to bring enough full-color copies of the cards to cover one person who didn't follow the rules. That would amount to 6 copies of the crypt card PDFs and 10-12 copies of the library card PDFs. For Danse Macabre, that would be 42 total pages. That's probably 20 bucks at Kinko's.
Is that how it should be? As in, is it unfair that you would have to spend 20 bucks on behalf of someone unwilling to do this themself? I dunno...is it worth $20 to not have a silly argument? Make them buy you a couple beers or something for the favor. Or be happy knowing you're the hero.
> BenPeal wrote:
> would be 42 total pages. That's probably 20 bucks at Kinko's.
>
Has anyone done this yet? That is, gone to to Kinko's and printed the PDFs. (out on the West Cosat of the States Kinko's is now FedEx Office) I ask because I went to print them out and I was told they won't print copyrighted material. I tried to explain but they weren't having it. What should I tell them? I don't know if this is the norm or if I happened to visit the FedEx office with the employees with wild hair up there .......!
As of yet, I haven't had time to try another store.
> TorranceCircle wrote:
>
> > BenPeal wrote:
> > would be 42 total pages. That's probably 20 bucks at Kinko's.
> >
> Has anyone done this yet? That is, gone to to Kinko's and printed the PDFs. (out on the West Cosat of the States Kinko's is now FedEx Office) I ask because I went to print them out and I was told they won't print copyrighted material. I tried to explain but they weren't having it. What should I tell them? I don't know if this is the norm or if I happened to visit the FedEx office with the employees with wild hair up there .......!
>
> As of yet, I haven't had time to try another store.
>
I visited a local print shop in my town and specified in my emails, that the cards are fan made and approved by copyright holders, and had no problems with it. Maybe you should try a different company?
> Jeff wrote:
>
> > jamesatzephyr wrote:
> > This from the people trying to get cards accepted into the game by:
> >
> > - printing them with an email address on them, not a picture, ignoring the fact that that makes them nigh-on impossible to identify cross-table. See the initial playtest of V:TES, for example, where cards were printed with clip-art to avoid this.
> >
> I find it much more useful to identify and remember a card by its name rather than by its art. You may recall that many popular cards have multiple artworks and layouts.
>
I wonder how you manage to read the name of a printed b/w card from the opposite side of the table, when it's upside down, but find difficult to identify a card with its art.
> Jeff wrote:
> Yes, really. Not everyone has access to a color printer. It seems the VEKN has placed a higher priority on appearances of the cards, rather than trying to gain wider acceptance of them by allowing quality black and white prints. It is an unnecessary impediment.
>
Not everyone has access to a b/w printer neither. I suppose next step should be allowing people to play tournaments with a scrap of paper with the name of the card on it.
> Jeff wrote:
> Yes. It was in the tournament report. I was trying to prove a point. I think some cards, in particular Recruitment Exercise and Instantaneous Transformation, are overpowered and don't fix problems with VTES. They only make some problems worse. I made my deck the night before, had never played with those cards previously and nearly won the tournament with them.
>
I "nearly" won a tournament with Count Zaroff and Shadow Feint in it. Does it mean they are overpowered?
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> TorranceCircle wrote:
> I ask because I went to print them out and I was told they won't print copyrighted material. I tried to explain but they weren't having it.
>
Oh man, what a mess!
All good and proper but all effed up as well...
> TorranceCircle wrote:
> What should I tell them?
>
After the kind explanations I probably wouldä've told them to shove it and taken my business to another printer.
All things considered, I'd asked if they have web access and then directed them to the page here where the prints are found.
Finnish Politics!
> Pascal wrote:
>
> > a-e wrote:
> > Still, as you are rules director of this game, you should not agree when you are asked as a player to let others to use b&w prints. According to previous posts, that was asked from all the players present in that tournament.
> >
> > Imo you can't support the rules only when you're organizer or judge and don't give a damn about them when you are just a player.
> >
> Tournament Rules, 2.6: "The head judge is the final judicial authority at any V:EKN-sanctioned tournament (see section 2.5 - Judge Responsibilities)."
> +
> Tournament Rules, 2.7: "The head judge's decision is final."
>
> Given the fact that a judgement had already been given by the head judge when I was made aware of the situation at the event, my position of Rules Director couldn't interact with the decision given.
>
Then I got it wrong from Dennis' post, assuming that this was asked from all players before the first round and judgement was made after everyone agreed.
Marko, Prince of Helsinki
I honestly don't understand why we even have to write about this, given that (in my opinion):
-We want more players!
Therefore we should make the new official cards as close as lawfully possible so those who don't have the old ones (specially with crypts) don't feel that they are second rate players.
-We want more players!
The new official cards must be as close as lawfully possible do the old ones so people passing by have a better image of the game as a whole. The prettier the cards, the better the game looks.
-We want more players!
That means we need to generate more interest via new sets (among other things).
So we must attract artists to our cause.
Ergo, we must respect their (ubber awesome) work. Art is important in this game, for MANY reasons.
Did I mention WE NEED MORE PLAYERS?
No deck on official constructed tournaments in Portugal will be valid without proper cards.
We have hundreds of cards printed in high quality for free (thanks Eliseu!).
Was this post necessary?
In a world were ill intentioned individuals claim to like the game, know allot about it and "care for the little guy", but argue against the above arguments, YES.
This concludes my Rant of the Week(tm).
Thanks to idiots, that's a thing.
PS: I'm not saying I'm not one of the idiots.
Double negative ftw.
So, we have established the rules and the not rules here, decided several ways to get stuff done, and the only question left is:
Are my crayon drawings of baltimore purge still illegal for tournaments?
Anyway, i cant print them, thusly, i dont use them yet. I fant afford 8x baltimore purge, so same principle there. When i have them, i have them.
And some people spamming thier projects is remindimg me of the guy from Idiocracy who keeps saying "brought to you by carls jr"
So, thread good?
> TorranceCircle wrote:
>
> > BenPeal wrote:
> > would be 42 total pages. That's probably 20 bucks at Kinko's.
> >
> Has anyone done this yet? That is, gone to to Kinko's and printed the PDFs. (out on the West Cosat of the States Kinko's is now FedEx Office) I ask because I went to print them out and I was told they won't print copyrighted material. I tried to explain but they weren't having it. What should I tell them? I don't know if this is the norm or if I happened to visit the FedEx office with the employees with wild hair up there .......!
>
> As of yet, I haven't had time to try another store.
>
Yes. My local Kinko's type printer has self-printing facilities where you can take in a USB. Cost was about $0.12 per sheet in AUD.
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> Yes. My local Kinko's type printer has self-printing facilities where you can take in a USB. Cost was about $0.12 per sheet in AUD.
>
I took my USB to the self-service area, it will not print them. I don't know why, but the printers gave a message to see an associate. This is when they told me they wouldn't print it. Again, for the record, Kinko's doesn't exist where I am anymore. As soon as I get the chance, I am going with Von Polack's advice and just going to a different store/company. I WILL get them printed. I was just wondering if anyone else ran into this issue. (and kind of hoping someone in California had another idea of where to get them printed.)
Can't wait to try Melusine D'Anjou, if for nothing else than to pay tribute to the artwork. Synner-G and Alex Camillie make the Phased Motion detector deck mandatory, Right?
Public Vilification, Marked Territory, and Instantaneous Transformation are all also on my high interest list.
> TorranceCircle wrote:
> As soon as I get the chance, I am going with Von Polack's advice and just going to a different store/company. I WILL get them printed. I was just wondering if anyone else ran into this issue. (and kind of hoping someone in California had another idea of where to get them printed.)
>
Does that mean we might see you at the upcoming Presidents' Day tournaments?
(BTW, it looks like we're going to play on the 25th this month, in case you're not busy )
> AaronC wrote:
> Does that mean we might see you at the upcoming Presidents' Day tournaments?
> (BTW, it looks like we're going to play on the 25th this month, in case you're not busy )
>
More likely in May. So I have plenty of time to get these printed out.
At first, I was relunctant with the 'copies have to be colour not black and white' but then I have visited websites (I am relunctant to go to physical printer shops) and I found in 5 minutes a shop that could make 150 pages in color shipped to my house for about 40€.
I suppose it is pretty fine to get more than 20 of each card for 40€.
IC Organized play coordinator
Please contact me with any OP query using the mail in my profile